More Things Star Wars

[divica]

2 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

There are, but that isn't what the article is about, and it is quite clear in pointing out that a lot of the vitriol has nothing to do with your supposed issues.

It's real. Fandom of all flavors is rife with horrible people. The majority of those examples above were either people promoting racism/sexism bullshit or Russian trolls doing the same thing. That is a problem. Ignoring it won't make it go away. 

Source? Because I have a good source indicating that you're quite frankly full of shit. 

Source? Because YOU disliking it for those misspelled reasons does not make it that many others do.

Again, this is an actual study. If you have studies pointing out otherwise, find them. Otherwise you are continuing to be full of shit.

And what is the credibility of that study? who did it? who can verify the results? 

Because what I am saying is from talking with familly, friends or people in other forums. And I have heard plenty of people say that they disliked the movie but none for alt right or racist motives… So yeah, I find it very difficult not to believe that a lot of people don t like the movie because of its REAL problems. 

At least within the real people that I spoke with easily 50% disliked the movie and none of them for the reasons you say...

[Kalbear]

6 minutes ago, divica said:

And what is the credibility of that study? who did it? who can verify the results? 

If you read the article, you'd see. 

6 minutes ago, divica said:

Because what I am saying is from talking with familly, friends or people in other forums. And I have heard plenty of people say that they disliked the movie but none for alt right or racist motives… So yeah, I find it very difficult not to believe that a lot of people don t like the movie because of its REAL problems. 

Sorry, your friends and family are not a 'study'.

6 minutes ago, divica said:

At least within the real people that I spoke with easily 50% disliked the movie and none of them for the reasons you say...

Anecdotes are not the singular of data.

Again, I'm sure there are people who don't like it for the reasons you say. I'm not saying that isn't the case. However, it's not the case that they are particularly commonplace or regular, especially given how big of a fandom Star Wars is. They're the noisy, entitled asshats.

I'm also saying there are a LOT of very noisy bullshit fans who are also racist and sexist, who harassed Tran, who hate that Rey exists, and think that Kathleen Kennedy - someone who has taken the Star Wars franchise out of the hell that was the prequels and produced massive hits on both movie and TV - is somehow the antichrist. And those people are being used as evidence of the other noisy entitled asshats that THEY were right all along.

You're being used. You can dislike the movie as much as you want, and that's fine. Don't assume that this means the movie was a failure. Don't assume that means that they're going to go another way - or that they should, even. And at the very least, when someone provides actual facts that indicate that you, personally, are being manipulated, don't bury your fucking head in the sand and claim that you're not.

[Gronzag]

Avatar made nearly $2.8 billion, and yet, not many people love that movie.

There was a huge hype surrounding TFA for some 3 years prior to its release. It was the first SW movie in a while, and first without Lucas.

[Heartofice]

There was an interesting podcast by Sam Harris the other week about Russian troll farms sowing discontent, one of their targets was The Last Jedi. God knows why. It probably did tap into some very real issues with the movie however. It has meant that any real critique of the movie tends to get lumped in with angry bots.

[Kalbear]

Just now, Heartofice said:

There was an interesting podcast by Sam Harris the other week about Russian troll farms sowing discontent, one of their targets was The Last Jedi. God knows why. It probably did tap into some very real issues with the movie however. It has meant that any real critique of the movie tends to get lumped in with angry bots.

Yes, this.

It doesn't mean that the critiques aren't valid, or that people genuinely don't like the movie - or some actually hate it. 

But it does mean that those voices aren't even a majority minority opinion. It means those voices - the asshats - are the ones who got amplified the most. This is what they do - they take the most horrible hot takes and amplify them to make it appear as if the worst thing is the most true, and they use that to sow divisiveness. 

The point isn't to push any particular ideology or opinion; the point is to make people fight each other. The best way in the US to do that is along cultural fractures, specifically around race/sex boundaries. This has been a tactic for over 40 years now, and it continues to work, because the US remains deeply fractured along racial and sex boundaries. 

[Heartofice]

Yup it has unfortunately meant that levels of debate on almost all issues are totally out of proportion. Everyone over reacting to everyone else.

On the Star Wars issue, I think that Last Jedi has some serious problems and is a very disappointing movie especially after it getting such great reviews. I would even be on board with any suggestion that it’s social agenda overtook basic storytelling quality. But the real problems the movie have from my side have nothing to do with too many women or whatever, it’s just about bad writing and poor decision making.

[Kalbear]

Just now, Heartofice said:

Yup it has unfortunately meant that levels of debate on almost all issues are totally out of proportion. Everyone over reacting to everyone else.

On the Star Wars issue, I think that Last Jedi has some serious problems and is a very disappointing movie especially after it getting such great reviews. I would even be on board with any suggestion that it’s social agenda overtook basic storytelling quality. But the real problems the movie have from my side have nothing to do with too many women or whatever, it’s just about bad writing and poor decision making.

I don't think that it had a particular social issue to grind in any way. The Canto Bight storyline barely took up anything, especially compared to prior star wars movies that focused heavily on such political issues. (Canto Bight was a problem for other reasons, but the idea of seeing super rich people at a star casino is, on its face, a totally fucking cool idea.) The notion that Star Wars series - a movie about people fighting a massive authoritarian regime in order to return Democracy and anti-racism to the universe - is NOT political or social is absurd. 

 

[divica]

16 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

I don't think that it had a particular social issue to grind in any way. The Canto Bight storyline barely took up anything, especially compared to prior star wars movies that focused heavily on such political issues. (Canto Bight was a problem for other reasons, but the idea of seeing super rich people at a star casino is, on its face, a totally fucking cool idea.) The notion that Star Wars series - a movie about people fighting a massive authoritarian regime in order to return Democracy and anti-racism to the universe - is NOT political or social is absurd. 

 

The first order is racist? In what way? (really I have never noted the racist tones)

28 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Yup it has unfortunately meant that levels of debate on almost all issues are totally out of proportion. Everyone over reacting to everyone else.

On the Star Wars issue, I think that Last Jedi has some serious problems and is a very disappointing movie especially after it getting such great reviews. I would even be on board with any suggestion that it’s social agenda overtook basic storytelling quality. But the real problems the movie have from my side have nothing to do with too many women or whatever, it’s just about bad writing and poor decision making.

I don t think the problem is the social agenda. I think the movie tries to have great WOW moments and it sacrifices the story, logic, continuity, characters and whatever you can name in order to deliver those cool moments. 

So it becomes a mix of good things and very bad things. For people focusing only on the amazing moments it is a good movie. For people analising the complete movie it is a reaaaly bad movie.

So we end up having discussions like:

Snooke's death was a really cool moment that people didn t see coming.

Snooke's death was completly fucked up. So who was snooke? where did he come from? why didn t luke kill him in the past? how did he fool everybody in order to corrupt kylo? how did he become supreme leader? why didn t anybody stop him from forming the first order? how was he able to kill all of luke's jedis (don t remember if this was explained in the movie but I think not)? 

[Bastard of Bournemouth]

 

30 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Canto Bight was a problem for other reasons, but the idea of seeing super rich people at a star casino is, on its face, a totally fucking cool idea.)

Agree with this. I didn't think the 'SJW' agenda was there...but neither was, you know, any sort of point. To any of it. At all.

Why couldn't Rose, Finn and BB8 have infiltrated the ship another way? We could have had a lot more tension with them playing Cat & Mouse versus Phasma, and a more fully developed relationship between the two. Maybe Rose could have had crazy com skills herself. IMO, it would have been a good way to beef up her character, which was thin to the point of non-existence.

Lots of neanderthal racists hated it because "WOMEN!" and "COLOUREDS!" but plenty of people just didn't like it because it was bad.

 

[Darth Richard II]

Luke didn’t have Jedis, he had kids he was training. Some of them went dark and killed the others.

And I don’t want to get too into all this again, but if others here feel that the only people who disliked TLJ did so for valid non racist reasons, you need to look at what happened to Rose on Instagram,

Also I like to point out that Luke giving up on everything and leaving is a plot point from TFA.

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, divica said:

The first order is racist? In what way? (really I have never noted the racist tones)

The Empire is against nonhumans. The First Order is as well. You not noticing that is a good example of willful blindness.

1 minute ago, divica said:

So it becomes a mix of good things and very bad things. For people focusing only on the amazing moments it is a good movie. For people analising the complete movie it is a reaaaly bad movie.

Well, if you're talking about assfucking a movie chances are good it won't be a good movie.

I like the whole movie, and the complete movie analysis makes it one of the most satisfying Star Wars movies for me. Again, your argument based on your fairly tiny subgroup is not indicative of actual results. 

1 minute ago, divica said:

So we end up having discussions like:

Snooke's death was a really cool moment that people didn t see coming.

Snooke's death was completly fucked up. So who was snooke? where did he come from? why didn t luke kill him in the past? how did he fool everybody in order to corrupt kylo? how did he become supreme leader? why didn t anybody stop him from forming the first order? how was he able to kill all of luke's jedis (don t remember if this was explained in the movie but I think not)? 

See, this is the sort of thing that makes me think you simply didn't pay attention at all.

Snoke came in after Luke decided to go away from everything. This is explained IN THE MOVIE. By the time Snoke had become powerful and the leader of the First Order, Luke had turned into a hermit for his decision with Ben. He cut himself off from the Force - he had no way of knowing that Snoke even existed. 

As to forming the First Order - that's explained somewhat in the other novels, but basically the First Order are the remnants of a galaxy-spanning Empire that wasn't completely obliterated by the Rebellion. Those cruisers, those planets - they didn't just disappear when Death Star 2 blew up. The Rebellion - now the New Republic - consolidated their control, but it left a lot of areas outside of their control - and the First Order was part of it. The First Order wasn't considered by the Republic to be a major threat to them - they were in a cold war - which General Organa disagreed with, which caused her to split with the Republic and form the resistance to fight them. The resistance was technically not aligned with the Republic, and the First Order basically got pissed off with the Republic for this essential arming of terrorists against them. 

I'm pretty sure that Ren and his friends came back and killed all of Luke's students, or it's possible that Ren killed them after knocking Luke out. TFA has the image of the Knights of Ren killing most. 

[Darth Richard II]

Oh and there are plenty of people who loved Avatar. I find this is one if the big issues with the internet today. You hang out in places where people verbally share ones opinions on things and it starts to look like EVERYONE has those opinions instead of just a tiny group. This board is a great example. Look at some of the bestselling SFF books then go look at the lit forum.

[Kalbear]

3 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Luke didn’t have Jesus,

ANOTHER REASON THAT THE MOVIE TANKED IS BECAUSE EVANGELICALS HATED IT

 

[Darth Richard II]

Haha I think it says something when my phone auto corrects jedis to Jesus. Not sure what though.

[Heartofice]

2 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

As to forming the First Order - that's explained somewhat in the other novels, but basically the First Order are the remnants of a galaxy-spanning Empire that wasn't completely obliterated by the Rebellion. Those cruisers, those planets - they didn't just disappear when Death Star 2 blew up. The Rebellion - now the New Republic - consolidated their control, but it left a lot of areas outside of their control - and the First Order was part of it. The First Order wasn't considered by the Republic to be a major threat to them - they were in a cold war - which General Organa disagreed with, which caused her to split with the Republic and form the resistance to fight them. The resistance was technically not aligned with the Republic, and the First Order basically got pissed off with the Republic for this essential arming of terrorists against them. 

One of the major issues, ok two of the major issues I have with the new trilogy are:

1) They push too much of the story into extended material like novels etc, to the point where much of the important plot points are skimmed over in the movies. I don't need everything explained to me, but to be so reliant on having to read books to get whats happening is a bit much.

2) My big gripe is the real laziness of the plots. Having the First Order become basically the new empire seemingly over night and the Rebellion crumble so easily meant that much of the potential storylines you could have written for these movies are lost in pursuit of seemingly just rehashing the dynamics from the OT. 

[divica]

2 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

The Empire is against nonhumans. The First Order is as well. You not noticing that is a good example of willful blindness.

Well, if you're talking about assfucking a movie chances are good it won't be a good movie.

I like the whole movie, and the complete movie analysis makes it one of the most satisfying Star Wars movies for me. Again, your argument based on your fairly tiny subgroup is not indicative of actual results. 

See, this is the sort of thing that makes me think you simply didn't pay attention at all.

Snoke came in after Luke decided to go away from everything. This is explained IN THE MOVIE. By the time Snoke had become powerful and the leader of the First Order, Luke had turned into a hermit for his decision with Ben. He cut himself off from the Force - he had no way of knowing that Snoke even existed. 

As to forming the First Order - that's explained somewhat in the other novels, but basically the First Order are the remnants of a galaxy-spanning Empire that wasn't completely obliterated by the Rebellion. Those cruisers, those planets - they didn't just disappear when Death Star 2 blew up. The Rebellion - now the New Republic - consolidated their control, but it left a lot of areas outside of their control - and the First Order was part of it. The First Order wasn't considered by the Republic to be a major threat to them - they were in a cold war - which General Organa disagreed with, which caused her to split with the Republic and form the resistance to fight them. The resistance was technically not aligned with the Republic, and the First Order basically got pissed off with the Republic for this essential arming of terrorists against them. 

I'm pretty sure that Ren and his friends came back and killed all of Luke's students, or it's possible that Ren killed them after knocking Luke out. TFA has the image of the Knights of Ren killing most. 

I am pretty sure luke tried to kill ben because he was being corrupted by snoke into the dark side. And if you paid atention to the movies there are several references about snooke being around at the same time as luke. I have no idea where you got your ideas...

I don t remember the first order ever acting against non-humans but whatever...

And I am sorry, but if you actually pay atention to the whole movie and don t see the several flaws in the movie and major inconsisties I think you aren t paying enough atention...

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, Heartofice said:

One of the major issues, ok two of the major issues I have with the new trilogy are:

1) They push too much of the story into extended material like novels etc, to the point where much of the important plot points are skimmed over in the movies. I don't need everything explained to me, but to be so reliant on having to read books to get whats happening is a bit much.

2) My big gripe is the real laziness of the plots. Having the First Order become basically the new empire seemingly over night and the Rebellion crumble so easily meant that much of the potential storylines you could have written for these movies are lost in pursuit of seemingly just rehashing the dynamics from the OT. 

I agree! I don't like that the First Order is essentially literally the Empire, and that we need a rag-tag group of scrappy idealists to face them, and that the First Order has a superweapon that Must Be Stopped. 

This is, of course, NOT a problem with TLJ in any way, and is something that TLJ goes out of its way to actively solve. The problem here was TFA. 

One of the reasons that I love TLJ is because it got dealt a really shitty hand in TFA, and then figures out some fairly ingenious ways to dig itself out of the hole while setting up future writers to be far more free. Snoke is quite frankly a bullshit villain that we shouldn't and don't care about, so we'll just kill him and move on to people we do care about. The resistance is lazy and a retread, so we'll essentially obliterate them and give a new start to the whole thing. Rey's parents are a silly mystery that will never have a good answer (and is a "who is Luke's real father" thing to it) so we'll give the answer no one expects - which is that Rey's history is nothing special. Luke fucking off and ignoring the rise of the First Order is something that the Luke we knew would NEVER FUCKING DO, so we make him a bitter man fueled by his failure - because that's essentially the only logical thing left (otherwise, he would have come back and helped). 

As to the backstory, the Star Wars series has always been weak on that. People forget how much knowledge about stuff happening didn't come out until WELL after the movies came out. And the prequels have colored heavily what we thought we knew about prior to ANH. I do think they skipped too much to get to the meat, and I think JJ Abrams did his classic thing of implying DEEP MYSTERIES without any real plans. That sucks, but again - not a TLJ problem. 

[Kalbear]

6 minutes ago, divica said:

I am pretty sure luke tried to kill ben because he was being corrupted by snoke into the dark side. And if you paid atention to the movies there are several references about snooke being around at the same time as luke. I have no idea where you got your ideas...

And you're wrong. Luke tried to kill Ben because he saw that Ben could become evil. 

What references are there that Snoke was around Luke when Luke was active? I bet you you can't find them, because they don't exist.

6 minutes ago, divica said:

I don t remember the first order ever acting against non-humans but whatever...

How many nonhumans are there in the First Order? How many are in the Empire? 

The answer is none. The Empire hated nonhumans. We get that explicitly in things like 'where are you taking this...thing'. We see that in Solo when they keep Chewbacca in a pit and have him tear people up for fun. 

6 minutes ago, divica said:

And I am sorry, but if you actually pay atention to the whole movie and don t see the several flaws in the movie and major inconsisties I think you aren t paying enough atention...

I certainly see flaws. And inconsistencies. The difference is that I don't think they make the movie horrible, any more than the flaws and inconsistencies in Star Wars made it horrible. Something not being perfect doesn't mean I can't love it.

[Werthead]

24 minutes ago, divica said:

I don t think the problem is the social agenda. I think the movie tries to have great WOW moments and it sacrifices the story, logic, continuity, characters and whatever you can name in order to deliver those cool moments. 

Also known as the "Game of Thrones effect" (especially post-Season 4).

 

Quote

 

Snooke's death was completly fucked up. So who was snooke? where did he come from? why didn t luke kill him in the past? how did he fool everybody in order to corrupt kylo? how did he become supreme leader? why didn t anybody stop him from forming the first order? how was he able to kill all of luke's jedis (don t remember if this was explained in the movie but I think not)? 

 

These are all questions that legitimately could be asked about the Emperor post-Return of the Jedi. I think people forget (or weren't around) for that 16-year period between Jedi and Menace in which we knew sweet FA about the Emperor as well, which did not really detract from the iconic status of the trilogy.

 

Quote

 

The Empire is against nonhumans. The First Order is as well. You not noticing that is a good example of willful blindness.

 

Worth noting that this is an old EU plot point which, whilst not completely rejected in the new canon, has been seriously dialled back. In particular, Rebels has the Emperor making direct use of Grand Admiral Thrawn in a manner he didn't in the original canon, suggesting he doesn't really have a major problem with non-humans.

Quote

 

that's explained somewhat in the other novels

 

Asking people to read spin-off novels and comics to understand the movies is not a great idea, especially if it means having to read those horrific Chuck Wendig books.

[divica]

3 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

And you're wrong. Luke tried to kill Ben because he saw that Ben could become evil. 

What references are there that Snoke was around Luke when Luke was active? I bet you you can't find them, because they don't exist.

We lost our son.

1011
01:24:52,754 --> 01:24:53,926
Forever.

1012
01:24:54,006 --> 01:24:55,007
No.

1013
01:24:55,132 --> 01:24:56,679
It was Snoke.

1014
01:24:57,134 --> 01:24:59,762
He seduced our son to the dark side.

1015
01:24:59,845 --> 01:25:01,438
But we can still save him.

1016
01:25:02,139 --> 01:25:03,265
Me.

1017
01:25:04,182 --> 01:25:05,229
You.

1018
01:25:06,059 --> 01:25:08,403
If Luke couldn't reach him, how could I?

1019
01:25:08,478 --> 01:25:09,900
Luke is a Jedi.

1020
01:25:11,481 --> 01:25:12,824
You're his father.
 

This are subtitles… It clearly says that snoke seduced bem into the dark side and that luke couldn t stop it. If you want to refute this you can go look into more subtitles...

11 minutes ago, Werthead said:



These are all questions that legitimately could be asked about the Emperor post-Return of the Jedi. I think people forget (or weren't around) for that 16-year period between Jedi and Menace in which we knew sweet FA about the Emperor as well, which did not really detract from the iconic status of the trilogy.

 

You are completly right sir.

The diference is that in the OT we had no context to how things happened or how things were before the empire.

In the sequels we have 6 movies that tell us how things happened. You can t introduce a character and say he destroyed all that was acheived in the OT and don  t explain how he did it. IF that was your objective you should have made a movie several generations after the OT.