Heresy 211 Eight Cairns

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

I am not sure if this is directed towards me or not, but I will bite. I do think that there are inversions in the story, and some of them might very well be tied to the titled chapters. But I don't think all of the titled chapters apply, and I think there are inversions in the rest of the text as well, outside of the titled chapters. The whole story has echoes and parallel's and inversions woven into it.

It is directed to anyone reading Heresy, but I'm pleased you bit!

I agree that parallels and inversions exist outside the titled chapters. Just reread my analysis of the tower of joy! But the titled chapters are very special. GRRM is writing two POVs at the same time. What other author has ever done this?

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

I think the work you are doing with the titled chapters is original and I do think it does fit the idea of "to go west, you must go east" etc. However, I am not convinced on each and every detail meaning something to the inversions, nor to I agree with all the interpretations that you suggest. Please don't think that is an insult, as I don't agree with every theory the fandom has put forward over the years, not do I even believe half of what I think I see in the text. 

I let a long time lapse by before picking up my project of deciphering again, because I think my personal analysis wasn't winning any converts. Beginning with Cat of the Canals I'm going to do my best to stick straight to picking out details like the example I provided above - how certain features of the canal and places along it seem to match places in the riverlands. And identifying people. I'll leave the conclusions for anyone that wants to comment in the thread once posted. So, I haven't taken offense. I understand what you're saying. It's been said to me before, so I've taken the criticism to heart and will attempt to improve upon how I approach it.

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

That said, I do enjoy reading theories and idea's that I don't necessarily buy. For starters, it's fun, secondly, it's a great way to look at different details of the text, and with different pov's involved. As readers, our pov and experiences are very important to how we interpret the text. Although I have not read all of your work on the inversions (I believe that is you over on the House of Black and White board), I have read some of them, and I find the connections interesting, and definitely thought provoking.

It's not a secret that I'm Melifeather on The House of Black and White forum. If you're reading this on a phone you cannot see that at the bottom of my posts are links to various essays.

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

The Prestayns and Antaryons are two square towers

I have not yet deciphered the significance of naming each tower on the canal. Antaryons sounds like anti-Arryns, but that's about it. I am trusting as I go along that I'll have a lightbulb moment. I usually do later on after my subconscious has a bit of time to work on it. 

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

See, I totally buy this as part of a mirror that GRRM is trying to show us, it seems too detailed not to be. The Twins fit the idea of these square towers, perhaps even the aquaduct mirroring the Frey bridge, sweet vs bitter. But what doesn't fit to me is the idea of the Long Canal fitting the green fork of the Trident, which is where the Twins are at. The Long Canal is the most major waterway in Baavos, but the Green Fork is not a major waterway in Westeros. The Trident is a major water way, so is the Blackwater Rush, and perhaps the Mander. I guess it could be argued that the Green Fork is part of the Trident. Or are we missing other square towers that straddle a river. Still, I think what you pick out of the text is pretty damn interesting.

 

The Long Canal is the Trident. It just so happens that the features that GRRM is giving us as clues are things on the Green Canal. The Frey's Twin Towers are on the Green Fork, and then even though the Isle of Faces are in the middle of a lake (Gods Eye) the reference to "green" is helpful to make the connection to the Green Men. The same goes for the Titan of Braavos, which is the opening into the harbor/lagoon and not a part of the Long Canal. But you have to admit that the defenses inside of it seem to mirror the Water Tower, which is in the middle of the bridge of the Twins, making Walder Frey the titan of the riverlands - which he undeniably is.

You're never going to get a complete one to one mirror, but it's more, how do I say, symbolic or metaphorically. We're just supposed to get an idea of where we are, who we're reading about, and what might have happened.

 

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

This thing with the boots in this chapter has always tickled my brain a bit, but I can't quite put it all together. Arya/Cat is wearing boots that are too big for her, and she also describes Cat's boots as being salt stained and these are the same boots that push Brusco's boat away from the dock. But that is only the first mention of a pair of boots in the chapter, and it's not the only pair that play a large role.

The other boots that play a role are Dareon's black boots. Cat/Arya notes that this is the only thing that is black on the Night's Watch brother. She will strip him of those black boots just like she does his life. She put's Dareon in the canal, just as he bragged he did with the rest of his black Night's Watch garb. But she keep the boots. 

Then she shows the boots to Brusco, who reports that they are too small for him. Her boots are too big for her, these boots are too small for him, but they both seem to agree that "good boots are hard to find".

To the kindly man, she reports that Dareon is dead but "someone" kept his boots. "No one" would imply a faceless man, perhaps, but she admits it was "someone". Again, we get the "good boots are hard to find" and then she admits that it was Arya of House Stark who kept the boots. The kindly man then has the waif bring warm milk that tastes burned to "our friend Arya who has returned to us so unexpectedly". It is implied that her actions with the boot lead to her blindness, but I am not sold on that being the reason. 

Of course, if Arya learns how to glamour, then she will perhaps be able to glamour herself to look like Dareon. She has kept the boots, no doubt. They might even fit her well, as they are to small for Brusco. I think she wears Dareon's boot in The Ugly Little Girl chapter in Dance. Those boots are described as heavy, and it makes sense that the Night's Watch would have heavy boots, to protect from the toil on the wall as well as the cold.

 

Yes, the boots! I haven't figured out the symbolism for this yet either, but I'm sure something will come up by the end of the chapter. Somehow the boots are connected to Brusco, and I haven't figured out who Brusco is yet. I mean he's Talea and Brea's father. If Talea is Catelyn - the gawky girl all skin and bones and always cold (Lady Stoneheart) - and Brea is Lysa, then Brusco could be Hoster Tully, but Hoster doesn't seem to be a good fit. Catelyn said she travelled with her father a lot and they've been to the Inn at the Crossroads many times, so it could be the owner there. BUT, it was at the Inn of the Kneeling Man where Harwin revealed Arya's true identity and she was abducted by the Brotherhood Without Banners, so right now I'm more interested in The Inn of the Kneeling Man. 

The owner of the Inn of the Kneeling Man is named, of all things, "Husband". His wife's name is Sharna. They are not the original owners, but since we're suspecting a brothel - a cathouse if you will, then Husband could be more akin to a John or a pimp. I say this, because of the Sailor's Wife who is a prostitute that will only bed men if they marry her first. Furthermore, the Sailor's Wife has a 14 year old daughter named Lanna. I suppose now this analysis would be too opinionated? lol Maybe I cannot help it after all!

 

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

A new moon, which is how I interpret the "when the moon was black" stage in our world lasts a night, perhaps two at the most, but even that is rare. In Cat's world in Braavos, she specifically gives the new moon a length of time each month, three days of every thirty. I am not sure why I think this is a bit odd, but it stands out to me as some kind of clue. Truly, in our planet, the new moon and the full moon only last an instant before the cycle moves on, although what appears in the sky might last longer, or it seems to. This cadence that GRRM is giving the moon cycle in his world, or at least in Braavos, is intriguing to me. It stands out to me as important in the way I think the "horned moon" comments in the text are important.

Will this be a pattern that we see emerge in Arya's future, for three nights in thirty, she is "no one" and for the other twenty-seven, she is allowed to be "someone" who is otherwise known as Arya Stark of Winterfell?

Yes, another mystery yet to solve! And how in the world would this even apply to working in a brothel? Don't know yet!

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

I do think if Renly was Robert's bastard, that it is a pretty well kept secret. I don't even know if Renly knew, although I think he suspected. I think that is what the peach exchange they share might be about. And I don't think Stannis has a clue, or he would not be so perplexed by Renly's peach.

I agree that there is something very important about Brienne, although my suspicion is that she is one of Robert's bastards, as well. Those brilliant blue eyes of Brienne's hint at a Baratheon blood line. Hints in the text about a hammer around Brienne, her strength and size, her link to the Stormlands and spending time at Storms End as a youth. It's very tinfoily, but it's hard for me to not at least cuddle the idea a little bit. 

Even if she is not Robert's bastards (although, the Maggy the Frog comments tempt to to try to place all 16 of Robert's children), there is something to the Tarth family and the title of Evenstar. I have wondered if they are linked to the Daynes, or vice versa, in the distant past.

I'm not discounting that Brienne might be one of Robert's (even though it goes against the tell tale hair color).  Robert certainly has the size to possibly be Brienne's father.  Brienne recalls a memory from her childhood, about a plum eyed singer who would visit Tarth, and she further recalls that her father, Lord Tarth,  could put his hands completely around her waist.  Indicating that he was probably a pretty big guy too.  And of course we have the little tidbit about Duncan the Tall's shield being found in her father's armory.

[Tucu]

4 hours ago, St Daga said:

I am not sure I see Arya as an improvement of Lyanna, but a Lyanna who takes a slightly different path, because ultimately, they are different people, in a different time and at a different stage of development, but the parallels between them are certainly there. GRRM even makes a point to tell us this, when he has Ned tell Arya she reminds him of Lyanna. That darn wolf blood...

I see both of them playing the same role or having the same wyrd in the Song of Ice and Fire. The characters in the last cycle failed to stop the ice and fire armageddons. Arya managed to escape and continue her training so she is further than Lyanna and might be able to murder some of the big cyvasse pieces. To prevent the Doom assassins will probably be more important than heroes with flaming swords.

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

Even if she is not Robert's bastards (although, the Maggy the Frog comments tempt to to try to place all 16 of Robert's children), there is something to the Tarth family and the title of Evenstar. I have wondered if they are linked to the Daynes, or vice versa, in the distant past

Thanks, to Tucu me leading to the Pawnee Evening Star - Morning Star ceremony, I'm pretty convinced that there is a connection as well. 

Holy, crap is that a horrific "ceremony".  It also ties in to some other parts of the book as well, and cements in my mind that George is kind of a sick bastard.

For those that are curious, a young girl is chosen (usually from a vision someone has) and it's decided that she will become the "Evening Star" personified for purpose of their ritual.  She is then captured, usually from another village, and held captive, where she is dressed in some sort of ritual clothing.  She is then taken by someone in the role of the "wolf" to an elaborately designed pyre (similar to Drogo's funeral pyre).  Where she is undressed and tied to the pyre.  Then various warriors come out and lightly "touch" various parts of her body with a torch.

Then the person in the role of the morning star, takes a ceremonial bow, and shoots her in the heart with an arrow.  The other members of the tribe then come out and all take turns shooting her with arrows.  They carefully cut in incision in her chest with a flint knife and put her face down into the ground to let her bleed out.)

The purpose of this, apparently is part of a renewal fertility ceremony, where the soul of the "evening star" (the sacrifice) is transferred into the morning star (the person who kills her with the bow).

Once I read this, I realized that Martin might be obliquely referring to this with Ygritte, who was "touched by fire" and then shot in the heart with an arrow by a member of the Night's Watch.  And perhaps also through Rattlebones, disguised as Mance, who was "touched by fire", before Jon ordered the Night's Watch to put an end to his suffering by shooting him with arrows.

[Tucu]

20 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Thanks, to Tucu me leading to the Pawnee Evening Star - Morning Star ceremony, I'm pretty convinced that there is a connection as well. 

Holy, crap is that a horrific "ceremony".  It also ties in to some other parts of the book as well, and cements in my mind that George is kind of a sick bastard.

For those that are curious, a young girl is chosen (usually from a vision someone has) and it's decided that she will become the "Evening Star" personified for purpose of their ritual.  She is then captured, usually from another village, and held captive, where she is dressed in some sort of ritual clothing.  She is then taken by someone in the role of the "wolf" to an elaborately designed pyre (similar to Drogo's funeral pyre).  Where she is undressed and tied to the pyre.  Then various warriors come out and lightly "touch" various parts of her body with a torch.

Then the person in the role of the morning star, takes a ceremonial bow, and shoots her in the heart with an arrow.  The other members of the tribe then come out and all take turns shooting her with arrows.  They carefully cut in incision in her chest with a flint knife and put her face down into the ground to let her bleed out.)

The purpose of this, apparently is part of a renewal fertility ceremony, where the soul of the "evening star" (the sacrifice) is transferred into the morning star (the person who kills her with the bow).

Once I read this, I realized that Martin might be obliquely referring to this with Ygritte, who was "touched by fire" and then shot in the heart with an arrow by a member of the Night's Watch.  And perhaps also through Rattlebones, disguised as Mance, who was "touched by fire", before Jon ordered the Night's Watch to put an end to his suffering by shooting him with arrows.

The caring during captivity part is also interesting. From Wikipedia:

Quote

Returning to the village, the captured girl would be handed over to the servant (priest) of the Morning Star. The people in contact with the girl treated her with respect, but they kept her isolated from the rest of the camp. If it was spring and time for the sacrifice, she was ritually cleansed. What was a five-day ceremony was begun around her. The Morning Star priest would sing songs describing the advancing stages in the rite, and the girl was symbolically transformed from human form to be among the celestial bodies. Here the girl became the ritual representation of the Evening Star.

 

[St Daga]

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I let a long time lapse by before picking up my project of deciphering again, because I think my personal analysis wasn't winning any converts. Beginning with Cat of the Canals I'm going to do my best to stick straight to picking out details like the example I provided above - how certain features of the canal and places along it seem to match places in the riverlands. And identifying people. I'll leave the conclusions for anyone that wants to comment in the thread once posted. So, I haven't taken offense. I understand what you're saying. It's been said to me before, so I've taken the criticism to heart and will attempt to improve upon how I approach it.

Well, it's hard not to try to analyze when the details hit you. I understand. Sometimes I see some thing so clearly, and poof, no one else seems to! I guess that is part of the challenge of such a large, mostly ambiguous text, and a million different perceptions in the fandom.

 

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

4 hours ago, St Daga said:

See, I totally buy this as part of a mirror that GRRM is trying to show us, it seems too detailed not to be. The Twins fit the idea of these square towers, perhaps even the aquaduct mirroring the Frey bridge, sweet vs bitter. But what doesn't fit to me is the idea of the Long Canal fitting the green fork of the Trident, which is where the Twins are at. The Long Canal is the most major waterway in Baavos, but the Green Fork is not a major waterway in Westeros. The Trident is a major water way, so is the Blackwater Rush, and perhaps the Mander. I guess it could be argued that the Green Fork is part of the Trident. Or are we missing other square towers that straddle a river. Still, I think what you pick out of the text is pretty damn interesting.

 

The Long Canal is the Trident. It just so happens that the features that GRRM is giving us as clues are things on the Green Canal. The Frey's Twin Towers are on the Green Fork, and then even though the Isle of Faces are in the middle of a lake (Gods Eye) the reference to "green" is helpful to make the connection to the Green Men. The same goes for the Titan of Braavos, which is the opening into the harbor/lagoon and not a part of the Long Canal. But you have to admit that the defenses inside of it seem to mirror the Water Tower, which is in the middle of the bridge of the Twins, making Walder Frey the titan of the riverlands - which he undeniably is.

You're never going to get a complete one to one mirror, but it's more, how do I say, symbolic or metaphorically. We're just supposed to get an idea of where we are, who we're reading about, and what might have happened.

I actually edited this out of my post because I decided that I was being critical of too many details while at the same time, I was searching for even more minute details. I LOL'd at myself, and then I edited! 

 

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Yes, the boots! I haven't figured out the symbolism for this yet either, but I'm sure something will come up by the end of the chapter. Somehow the boots are connected to Brusco, and I haven't figured out who Brusco is yet. I mean he's Talea and Brea's father. If Talea is Catelyn - the gawky girl all skin and bones and always cold (Lady Stoneheart) - and Brea is Lysa, then Brusco could be Hoster Tully, but Hoster doesn't seem to be a good fit.

Perhaps the Blackfish. He seems to have some type of relationship with both Cat and Lysa that border's on fatherly. After all, he was willing enough to follow Lysa to the Vale after her marriage to Jon Arryn, and he is willing to follow Cat back north and join Robb's cause.

 

[St Daga]

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I'm not discounting that Brienne might be one of Robert's (even though it goes against the tell tale hair color).  Robert certainly has the size to possibly be Brienne's father.  Brienne recalls a memory from her childhood, about a plum eyed singer who would visit Tarth, and she further recalls that her father, Lord Tarth,  could put his hands completely around her waist.  Indicating that he was probably a pretty big guy too.  And of course we have the little tidbit about Duncan the Tall's shield being found in her father's armory.

I used to be so certain about the black hair and blue eyes being a marker for Robert's Sixteen, but I am no so certain any more. I am not sure what really changed my mind about this, but some of it is all the hints in Jon's story that could relate to Robert, except Jon doesn't look a thing like Jon. So, I started looking for other details and hints in the text. It led me to some tinfoil, no doubt!

Some of my biggest doubts about Robert's children are the ones who don't show his coloring! I can't deny even I sometimes roll my eyes at myself! 

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

For those that are curious, a young girl is chosen (usually from a vision someone has) and it's decided that she will become the "Evening Star" personified for purpose of their ritual.  She is then captured, usually from another village, and held captive, where she is dressed in some sort of ritual clothing.  She is then taken by someone in the role of the "wolf" to an elaborately designed pyre (similar to Drogo's funeral pyre).  Where she is undressed and tied to the pyre.  Then various warriors come out and lightly "touch" various parts of her body with a torch.

Then the person in the role of the morning star, takes a ceremonial bow, and shoots her in the heart with an arrow.  The other members of the tribe then come out and all take turns shooting her with arrows.  They carefully cut in incision in her chest with a flint knife and put her face down into the ground to let her bleed out.)

The purpose of this, apparently is part of a renewal fertility ceremony, where the soul of the "evening star" (the sacrifice) is transferred into the morning star (the person who kills her with the bow).

Eesh! That is a horrific story. However, it is not unlike people roasting children in sacrifice of Baal! Still, it does tie eerily to the the Dawn references as well as the Sword of the Morning concept. Some thing that does stick out in the Evenstar/Brienne connection to the Evening Star, as the sacrifice was named. I am not sure if it was this thread or Heresy 210 that someone suggested that Brienne could possibly have been around 3 years old near the end of the rebellion.

2 hours ago, Tucu said:

The caring during captivity part is also interesting. From Wikipedia:

Quote

Returning to the village, the captured girl would be handed over to the servant (priest) of the Morning Star. The people in contact with the girl treated her with respect, but they kept her isolated from the rest of the camp. If it was spring and time for the sacrifice, she was ritually cleansed. What was a five-day ceremony was begun around her. The Morning Star priest would sing songs describing the advancing stages in the rite, and the girl was symbolically transformed from human form to be among the celestial bodies. Here the girl became the ritual representation of the Evening Star.

 

Cared for her and respected her! But kept her isolated? So as not to get attached, or to look at her as a person and not a sacrifice? This is interesting stuff and something I had never heard of until it was brought up on the last heresy thread. 

Also from wikipedia:

The sacrifice was related to the belief that the first human being was a girl, born of the mating of the Morning Star, the male figure of light, and the unwilling Evening Star, a female figure of darkness, in their creation story.

A male Morning Star and an unwilling Evening Star. So, SAD and who? Lyanna? Hard to imagine it could be Ashara? Also, who knows how deeply GRRM would follow such a story, as he is very good at taking parts of something and mixing them with other things to make them something else entirely! And this indicates a girl sacrifice, and not a boy! Some thing to think about!

 

[PrettyPig]

On ‎8‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 7:17 AM, St Daga said:

Alchemists believed that mercury was the prima materia, or the First Matter, of which all other metals are formed from. Mercury is also used in making amalgams, which are alloys of mercury and other metals, and it blends well with many other metals, making it important for use in compounds with gold, silver, copper, tin and  zinc. Interestingly, mercury will NOT create an amalgam with iron. As you have pointed out, in some forms, mercury can form a white power that resembles salt or snow. 

Mercury is both noted to be a silver-white metal, and can also look like snow. These are colors and items that I associate with the Starks. First Matter brings to mind the First Men, first men used bronze weapons, of which is an alloy of copper and tin.

Finally returning to some earlier comments...

Random and unorganized thoughts on the bolded:   mercury's silver-white color reminds me of moonlight/starlight.   GRRM has used the word "silvery" many times through the books to describe something related to the moon.  Silver is often associated with Dany as well, particularly her hair and her horse.  It looking like snow also calls to mind coldness, whiteness - which are indeed Stark qualities.   And Starks are First Men...but as you noted, First Men are associated with bronze.      This makes me wonder if the Starks, as well as some other very old First Men families like the Daynes, are actually a much older or more special breed of First Men - the true prima materia.     We are all made of star stuff, after all.

In addition, the atomic number for mercury is 80 - both 8 and 0 in numerology representing infinity or immortality.     This ties in to stars or celestial bodies that can exist for millions of years - and a running theme of ASOIAF is a pursuit of near-eternal life through various means, right?    Mercury is also used in mercury-vapor/neon/fluorescent lamps - some interesting tidbits on that:  (from Wikipedia)

"When a mercury vapor lamp is first turned on, it will produce a dark blue glow because only a small amount of the mercury is ionized and the gas pressure in the arc tube is very low, so much of the light is produced in the ultraviolet mercury bands. As the main arc strikes and the gas heats up and increases in pressure, the light shifts into the visible range and the high gas pressure causes the mercury emission bands to broaden somewhat, producing a light that appears more nearly white to the human eye, although it is still not a continuous spectrum. Even at full intensity, the light from a mercury vapor lamp with no phosphors is distinctly bluish in color.

To correct the bluish tinge, many mercury vapor lamps are coated on the inside of the outer bulb with a phosphor that converts some portion of the ultraviolet emissions into red light. This helps to fill in the otherwise very-deficient red end of the electromagnetic spectrum. These lamps are generally called "color corrected" lamps. Most modern mercury vapor lamps have this coating. One of the original complaints against mercury lights was they tended to make people look like "bloodless corpses" because of the lack of light from the red end of the spectrum.

When added to neon filled tubes the light produced will be inconsistent red/blue spots until the initial burning-in process is completed; eventually it will light a consistent dull off-blue color."

 

Silvery-white "first" metal, looks like snow, doesn't retain heat but conducts electricity, puts out blue or deep violet/indigo light.   I'm sure you can see where my mind is going with this, and how many connections can be made here.   I for one am linking this all back to Qarth, which may have to be the subject of another post.   Elsewhere in discussion about potential sacrifice and the need for certain bloodlines to create the perfect "sphinx", I wondered in particular if Dayne blood was a necessary base or catalyst for this reaction - if Daynes (or Starks) are a "mercurial" family, the First Material, then perhaps there is something to this line of thought!

 

On ‎8‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 8:49 AM, St Daga said:

Here we have people from Moles Town who have taken refuge at the wall. The mention of these two women stick out to me for a couple reasons. First and foremost, Lady Meliana seems like a rather obvious hint at Lyanna (I have noted this before but didn't know how to process it). Lady Meliana-Lady Lyanna. Now in this case, based on Jon's implication that this "lady" did not act at all like a lady, is that Lady Meliana is probably a practicing whore from Moles Town. Lyanna and (Me)Liana sound exactly alike, I would think.

I'll point out "Lady Lemore" as well - a soiled septa.   Obviously birthed a child, obviously not body-conscious, but still garbed in faith.  I will return to my post about the Magdalene asylums for fallen women - prostitutes and unwed mothers - and how these places forced religious rehabilitation for the girls in their charge.    Our Septa Lemore may be the literal walking version of the Madonna/Whore complex.   Since she is hanging out incognito on a pole boat with Jon Connington and raising the boy put forth as Rhaegar's son Aegon, I'm thinking that she may have some connection to Lyanna and Ashara as well.

 

On ‎8‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 12:12 PM, St Daga said:

One final thing that I think is super interesting in this chapter is how Arya/Cat reports that she serves Brusco until the moon is dark, and then she spends time serving at the House of Black and White. 

Again with the moonlight, and a "mercurial" Stark!  One who goes into hiding, more or less, when the moon does.     This will sound bonkers, but I am convinced that some of the players in the story (definitely the Daynes and possibly the Starks, and I'm eyeballing the founders of the HoBaW as well) descend from a group of First Men that were some kind of darkness/night worshippers...possibly even underground dwellers that only emerged at night.  Cold light, stars falling, milky glowing bioluminescent swords, etc – lots of reasons that I won’t cover now, so suffice it to say that 1) they are associated with night/dark and 2) they still to this day follow/practice some type of related dark magic.

 

On ‎8‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 12:17 PM, St Daga said:

Or, the Bael Tale was something that Ned forbade Old Nan, or anyone, telling at Winterfell. See, I think the Bael Tale probably links to Starkcest, and Ned would not want to flaunt this idea, hence it might bring attention toward Jon. I used to think this was a father-daughter incest, like we see with Craster, but now I lean very strongly to it being a sibling tale.

 Indeed.   In fact, I have a whole theory about it HERE...although I think there's a supernatural element to consider as well.   This also ties into the darkness/underground idea, as later in the thread I dive into Ba'al and his role as god of the underworld - and mention his moon-goddess consort, the lovely Ashtoreth, or Astarat/Astarte.     Same thread, THIS folds in some of GRRM's Catholic/religious background to the Bael story too.   

[Melifeather]

I'm beginning to wonder if Lyanna ran away from the Harrenhal tourney and wasn't actually the queen of love and beauty. When Rhaegar was sent by Aerys to find the Knight of the Laughing Tree, maybe she ran away with a dragon egg? It would parallel some of the earlier tournaments with Dunk. 

On the way to the Ashford tourney Dunk finds a dragon egg - he found Egg. At the Whitewalls tourney, Lord Butterwell takes Egg and hides him in a sept while Ser Glendon Ball is accused of stealing a dragon egg. In the end we learn that Bloodraven arranged for someone to steal the egg. So it wouldn't surprise me that Rhaegar brought an egg with him to the Harrenhal tourney.

The Cat of the Canals chapter Arya dreams :

Quote

...when not dreaming wolf dreams, she was Arya looking for her mother, stumbling through a wasted land of mud, blood, and fire - but it was always raining, and she could hear her mother screaming, but a monster with a dog’s head would not let her go save her. She was weeping like a frightened little girl.

Also this:

Quote

 

The Nine Free Cities are the daughters of Valyria, but Braavos is the bastard child who ran away from home to escape the dragonlords. But they all share one god: Him of Many Faces.

The kindly man told Cat:

We are a mongrel folk, the sons of slaves and whores and thieves. Our forebears came from half a hundred lands to this place of refuge, to escape the dragonlords who had enslaved them. Half a hundred gods came with them, but there is one god all of them shared in common.”

 

 The chapter implies that Lyanna ran towards the riverlands to escape "the dragonlords". We know Aerys sent Rhaegar looking for the Knight of the Laughing Tree. How do we know the KofLT story isn't an allegory? Meera and Jojen never name names, just physical descriptions like "wolf maid" and "quiet wolf", etc. I'm thinking the crown of blue roses laid in her lap is a metaphor for Lyanna's death. It would also mirror how Arya hid for a few days after throwing Joffrey's sword into a river and Nymeria bit him, and then Lady ended up being executed by Ned. 

[St Daga]

On 8/4/2018 at 1:30 PM, PrettyPig said:

"When a mercury vapor lamp is first turned on, it will produce a dark blue glow because only a small amount of the mercury is ionized and the gas pressure in the arc tube is very low, so much of the light is produced in the ultraviolet mercury bands. As the main arc strikes and the gas heats up and increases in pressure, the light shifts into the visible range and the high gas pressure causes the mercury emission bands to broaden somewhat, producing a light that appears more nearly white to the human eye, although it is still not a continuous spectrum. Even at full intensity, the light from a mercury vapor lamp with no phosphors is distinctly bluish in color.

To correct the bluish tinge, many mercury vapor lamps are coated on the inside of the outer bulb with a phosphor that converts some portion of the ultraviolet emissions into red light. This helps to fill in the otherwise very-deficient red end of the electromagnetic spectrum. These lamps are generally called "color corrected" lamps. Most modern mercury vapor lamps have this coating. One of the original complaints against mercury lights was they tended to make people look like "bloodless corpses" because of the lack of light from the red end of the spectrum.

When added to neon filled tubes the light produced will be inconsistent red/blue spots until the initial burning-in process is completed; eventually it will light a consistent dull off-blue color."

I'm trying to process all of this, but just some quick thoughts and word association. The idea violet/dark blue hints to me of Ashara's eyes and Rhaegar's eyes, if that WAS Rhaegar seen in her vision in the HotUD. But more than that, the color does bring to mind also the Dayne's in general.

Bluish hints at Stark blue roses, a bit, or at least the "off-blue" color does. "Off-blue" hints perhaps at the soft, pale blue of the Winter rose that only seems to bloom in Winterfell. Have any of our current Stark children ever seen this rose bloom? If so, I don't think they have said so in the text. Could the panes of glass in the glass gardens at Winterfell have caused the roses to appear different while in the glass garden's than outside of the glass gardens. Somewhere in the text it describes that glass wasn't necessarily clear, I think.

"Bloodless corpses" makes me think of several things. Roose Bolton and his pastiness, using leeches to draw the blood/red from his body, which is almost an opposite of adding red to the blue mercury color. It also brings to mind the idea of the "corpse Queen" or Night's Queen. 

Ultraviolet brings to mind black lights and black lights can be used for decorative lighting effects, exposing hidden messages or illuminating colors in an unusual way. Black light can be used for diagnostic and therapeutic uses in medicine such as with neonatal bilirubin light therapy and a Wood's lamp, which is used to diagnose and illuminate possible injuries to the skin or eyes, which I am familiar with based on my work.

 

On 8/4/2018 at 1:30 PM, PrettyPig said:

Silvery-white "first" metal, looks like snow, doesn't retain heat but conducts electricity, puts out blue or deep violet/indigo light.   I'm sure you can see where my mind is going with this, and how many connections can be made here.   I for one am linking this all back to Qarth, which may have to be the subject of another post.   Elsewhere in discussion about potential sacrifice and the need for certain bloodlines to create the perfect "sphinx", I wondered in particular if Dayne blood was a necessary base or catalyst for this reaction - if Daynes (or Starks) are a "mercurial" family, the First Material, then perhaps there is something to this line of thought!

I don't know if it's the Starks or Dayne's but I do agree this must link back to the first men in some way, and their blood lines. But I do wonder if we have a couple different levels of first men. Like there are First Men and then are FIRST MEN? Something in my head links this to Garth Greenhand and the children that he spread, and the eventual bloodlines of those children. I actually have wondered if the Stark's don't have a connection to Asshai, or came from there. This is basically linked to a thought that Dany has in Game where she notes that men from Asshai are "dark" and "solemn". Solemn certainly brings to mind the Starks, and dark at least links to dark hair or dark eyes. While we know that Jon and Arya and Ned all have grey eyes, both Jon and Arya are noted to have eyes described just as dark, Jon's eyes are a dark grey they look almost black, and Catelyn once' refers to Ned's eyes as dark grey. So not just grey, but dark grey. This seem to separate them from say, Roose Bolton and his pale eyes!

I will say that Cat's very specific drawing of our attention in Clash to Ned's "dark grey eyes" links back to Bran's description of Jon's "eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black". Right after this thought by Catelyn, we get this "They gave his eyes to crows, she remembered." First of all, Ned's eyes going to the crows, and our association in the story of a crow with an extra eye seems like an important connection. Did Ned's death increase his children's abilities? But back to the dark grey eyes, would eyes that were darker grey rather than lighter grey explain some thing to us that is important in these certain Starks? The darker grey the eyes, the more ?????

 

On 8/4/2018 at 1:30 PM, PrettyPig said:

Again with the moonlight, and a "mercurial" Stark!  One who goes into hiding, more or less, when the moon does.     This will sound bonkers, but I am convinced that some of the players in the story (definitely the Daynes and possibly the Starks, and I'm eyeballing the founders of the HoBaW as well) descend from a group of First Men that were some kind of darkness/night worshippers...possibly even underground dwellers that only emerged at night.  Cold light, stars falling, milky glowing bioluminescent swords, etc – lots of reasons that I won’t cover now, so suffice it to say that 1) they are associated with night/dark and 2) they still to this day follow/practice some type of related dark magic.

This is interesting! Perhaps it could also tie back to the "darkness" of the grey eyes in our certain Starks. Do these people have a talent for seeing different things? Or for some thing in the dark that not all people can? Helped them see in the tunnels and dark places of the earth?

 

On 8/4/2018 at 1:30 PM, PrettyPig said:

On 8/3/2018 at 12:17 PM, St Daga said:

Or, the Bael Tale was something that Ned forbade Old Nan, or anyone, telling at Winterfell. See, I think the Bael Tale probably links to Starkcest, and Ned would not want to flaunt this idea, hence it might bring attention toward Jon. I used to think this was a father-daughter incest, like we see with Craster, but now I lean very strongly to it being a sibling tale.

 Indeed.   In fact, I have a whole theory about it HERE...although I think there's a supernatural element to consider as well.   This also ties into the darkness/underground idea, as later in the thread I dive into Ba'al and his role as god of the underworld - and mention his moon-goddess consort, the lovely Ashtoreth, or Astarat/Astarte.     Same thread, THIS folds in some of GRRM's Catholic/religious background to the Bael story too.   

Thank you for the links. I will look through them when I have time, which might be soon, as I am avoiding doing any type of house cleaning today!

 

[St Daga]

17 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I'm beginning to wonder if Lyanna ran away from the Harrenhal tourney and wasn't actually the queen of love and beauty. When Rhaegar was sent by Aerys to find the Knight of the Laughing Tree, maybe she ran away with a dragon egg? It would parallel some of the earlier tournaments with Dunk. 

Both Ned and Barristan think of Rhaegar naming Lyanna "queen" of the tourney of Harrenhal. Ned just says "queen of beauty" while Barristan calls her the "queen of love and beauty". We also get this information from Dany, but she would only have the second hand information so she is only basing this on what she was told. The World Book also states it, although that information could certainly be swayed to fit a certain perception. Interestingly, Jojen's Harrenhal story does not include "crowning" Lyanna. I thought it was noted in Kevan Lannister's POV also, but now I can't find it, if it does say so.

It would be interesting if Lyanna did take a dragon egg, but I am not sure it would have been at Harrenhal. If the egg was stolen there (this might explain some of Aerys temper, if it was Aerys who brought the egg) but would anyone have been allowed to leave Harrenhal until the culprit was discovered? I haven't read D&E, so I don't know how that story line about the stolen egg flows.

I do like this connection, twice, to Braavos and the fleeing of the dragon lords. 

ETA: Ned's recollection does come from his fever dream/memory from the Black Cells, so might be questionable. Barristan's is a legit memory, but sometimes I don't even believe him when he remembers Ashara's hair was dark. So ...

[St Daga]

16 hours ago, St Daga said:

Both Ned and Barristan think of Rhaegar naming Lyanna "queen" of the tourney of Harrenhal. Ned just says "queen of beauty" while Barristan calls her the "queen of love and beauty". We also get this information from Dany, but she would only have the second hand information so she is only basing this on what she was told. The World Book also states it, although that information could certainly be swayed to fit a certain perception. Interestingly, Jojen's Harrenhal story does not include "crowning" Lyanna. I thought it was noted in Kevan Lannister's POV also, but now I can't find it, if it does say so.

ETA: Ned's recollection does come from his fever dream/memory from the Black Cells, so might be questionable. Barristan's is a legit memory, but sometimes I don't even believe him when he remembers Ashara's hair was dark. So ...

While doing a little word search on queen love and beauty, I came across this passage from Cersei:

Quote

 

"Do you still grieve for this friend of your childhood?" Qyburn asked. "Is that what troubles you, Your Grace?"

 

"Melara? No. I can hardly recall what she looked like. It is just . . . the maegi knew how many children I would have, and she knew of Robert's bastards. Years before he'd sired even the first of them, she knew. She promised me I should be queen, but said another queen would come . . ." Younger and more beautiful, she said. ". . . another queen, who would take from me all I loved."

"And you wish to forestall this prophecy?" AFFC-Cersei VIII

 

 

 

Perhaps this has been discussed before (I am sure it has because I don't think there are any original idea's any more), or perhaps I have even read the thought but it was never retained, but searching with Lyanna as my goal and as the probable Queen of Love and Beauty at Harrenhal, I looked at this statement with Lyanna in mind, and  I wondered just how far Cersei would have been willing to go to eradicate Lyanna from Rhaegar's path? We know what she is willing to do to Margaery.

If Cersei has had this prophecy in her mind since she was ten or eleven (that is my head canon, although I don't know why), and at that time she knew/thought she would be queen because of Tywin's plans, then she hears this information from Maggy's prophecy. Cersei claims she thought that meant she would marry Rhaegar after after Aerys was dead. 

So, it does make sense, if years later, when Cersei heard of Rhaegar's favoring of Lyanna at Harrenhal, that she would attempt to take Lyanna out of the picture, not because she wanted Robert, but because she wanted Rhaegar. So, did Cersei attempt to kill/hurt Lyanna, using the best pawn she had available? Jaime. Jaime could be manipulated by her, even from an early age. She manipulated him to join the Kingsguard, I have wondered if she some how manipulated him into killing Aerys, and now I wonder a bit more about the idea that Cersei might have been behind Lyanna's kidnapping, and she used Jaime to do it? If she thought that Rhaegar was casting an thought to Lyanna, she might have wanted anyone who stood in the way of her goal to be out of the way.

This might also apply to Elia, although Elia's death doesn't come until after Rhaegar's, so by then, Elia could not matter to Cersei, as she could not stand in her way. Hmmm.

@Feather Crystal would you mind sharing links to your thoughts on the Lannister's being behind Lyanna's kidnapping? While I have not been convinced that Robert was behind Lyanna's kidnapping, I have wondered about Jaime, who is another candidate you have presented. Jaime might not have even needed look alike armor or a helm, people just needed to be told that Rhaegar did it. After all, Catelyn is in disguise at the Inn at the Crossroads, and no one recognizes her until Tyrion does, how could this apply to Lyanna and her wolf blood?

Now, this would inverse, Catelyn, a she-wolf taking a Lannister hostage, of perhaps it was a Lannister in the past who took a she-wolf hostage. Jaime or Cersei! Kevan might do this for Tywin, but would he do it for Cersei? I don't know.

Here is a little Mountain that Rides tinfoil! Could it have been Gregor Clegane who could be persuaded to do Cersei's dirty work? After all, on one point, Cersei does tell us this about the Mountain, "The Mountain had not always been gentle with his prisoners, even those worth a goodly ransom". Tywin tells us that he didn't know what he had in Gregor before the Sack of Kings Landing, but perhaps Cersei did? Interesting that Gregor becomes Ser Robert Strong and seems to be lined up to become Cersei's champion and weapon. Perhaps he has always been her weapon?

I need to think on the Cersei/Gregor and Gregor/Lyanna possible connections. Arya has dealings with both Clegane brothers, but what she see's and hears of the Mountain's men is much, much worse than what she knows of the Hound, and that includes Micah's death and Sandor being on the steps of Baelor when Ned was executed. Except the Mountain never knows what he has in Arya, but does that indicate he knows exactly what he might have had in Lyanna, or is this not an echo? Arya is just on the edge of The Mountain and his "work" but never directly in his path. How could that apply to Lyanna, if Cersei did put the Mountain to work all those years ago?

Quote

The Mountain and his men had horses, but the captives were all afoot, and those too weak to keep up were killed out of hand, along with anyone foolish enough to flee. The guards took women off into the bushes at night, and most seemed to expect it and went along meekly enough. One girl, prettier than the others, was made to go with four or five different men every night, until finally she hit one with a rock. Ser Gregor made everyone watch while he took off her head with a sweep of his massive two-handed greatsword. "Leave the body for the wolves," he commanded when the deed was done, handing the sword to his squire to be cleaned. ACOK-Arya VI

Interesting that sometimes the Mountain uses a very Stark-like method for execution with beheadings, even using a massive great sword. However, he does not show respect for the body but condemns it to "the wolves" and he does not clean his own weapon. It's not quite opposite of what we know about Ned's method of execution, but it's definitely a divergence.

After escaping Harrenhal (I know the Mountain was long gone but his return was expected) Arya falls into the hands of the Brotherhood without Banner's. They know who she was and she is still a prisoner, but a better prisoner. What part of this applies to Lyanna's story. Arya feels like she could be an outlaw, but this does not happen. She then falls into the hands of The Hound, who also wants to ransom her. I don't know how much of this could apply to Lyanna's story, or if only parts of it do.

Sorry about all my rambling, but this idea of what Cersei did to Marg based on her fears of Maggy the Frog's words have really made me consider the possibility of what might have happened to Lyanna. At one time, Cersei  refers to Lyanna as insipid, which I relate to Sansa more than Arya, so I wonder how much of Sansa's story we should be paying attention to, and not to Arya's, even though Arya/Lyanna makes more sense to be as a parallel.

Another thing I noticed on searching insipid is that it is only used twice in the story. Both times in Game, right at the start of our story. Cersei refers to Lyanna as insipid, and just before this, Jon gives Myrcella a once over and reports he thinks she is insipid. And all Myrcella did was smile at Robb. Is this a parallel or inversion of sorts? I always thought this was a rather harsh thought on Jon's part, but perhaps it is a clue I have missed.

I'm done now, I promise ...

[PrettyPig]

2 hours ago, St Daga said:

I'm trying to process all of this, but just some quick thoughts and word association. The idea violet/dark blue hints to me of Ashara's eyes and Rhaegar's eyes, if that WAS Rhaegar seen in her vision in the HotUD. But more than that, the color does bring to mind also the Dayne's in general.

Bluish hints at Stark blue roses, a bit, or at least the "off-blue" color does. "Off-blue" hints perhaps at the soft, pale blue of the Winter rose that only seems to bloom in Winterfell. Have any of our current Stark children ever seen this rose bloom? If so, I don't think they have said so in the text. Could the panes of glass in the glass gardens at Winterfell have caused the roses to appear different while in the glass garden's than outside of the glass gardens. Somewhere in the text it describes that glass wasn't necessarily clear, I think.

"Bloodless corpses" makes me think of several things. Roose Bolton and his pastiness, using leeches to draw the blood/red from his body, which is almost an opposite of adding red to the blue mercury color. It also brings to mind the idea of the "corpse Queen" or Night's Queen. 

 

Yes!  I think of Starks and pale blue roses, blue eyes of the wights, the deep indigo of Rhaegar's eyes.   In addition there's the whole theme of the HOTU -   the black bark shade of the evening tree, the inky blue shade goo and the corresponding blue lips of Pyat Pree, and most certainly this event:

Quote

 

Behind was another door, hidden. It was old grey wood, splintery and plain... but it stood to the right of the door through which she’d entered. The wizards were beckoning her with voices sweeter than song. She ran from them, Drogon flying back down to her. Through the narrow door she passed, into a chamber awash in gloom.

A long stone table filled this room. Above it floated a human heart, swollen and blue with corruption, yet still alive. It beat, a deep ponderous throb of sound, and each pulse sent out a wash of indigo light. The figures around the table were no more than blue shadows. As Dany walked to the empty chair at the foot of the table, they did not stir, nor speak, nor turn to face her. There was no sound but the slow, deep beat of the rotting heart.

Through the indigo murk, she could make out the wizened features of the Undying One to her right, an old old man, wrinkled and hairless. His flesh was a ripe violet-blue, his lips and nails bluer still, so dark they were almost black. Even the whites of his eyes were blue. They stared unseeing at the ancient woman on the opposite side of the table, whose gown of pale silk had rotted on her body. One withered breast was left bare in the Qartheen manner, to show a pointed blue nipple hard as leather.

 

So definitely the association with blue/indigo light here, in Dany's trip to the Blue Room of the HOTU that is all about rot and corruption and deception.   And of course, the HOTU is in Qarth, where she first meets up with Quaithe of the starlight and encounters the tall pale milk people, the Qartheen.    In addition to this, though, Dany has an earlier encounter that I haven't made full sense of yet, but I think is very important - her stop at Vaes Tolorro, the white city, pale as the moon.  Vaes Tolorro, an ancient city of ghosts with its crumbling white walls, offers Dany and her khalasar salvation (and peaches, too!), whereas Qarth and the HOTU offers empty promises and trickery.  

That Vaes Tolorro chapter is telling anyway, because it is the first of three back-to-back chapters (Dany, Jon, Arya) that have our main characters encountering a white city - DanyCo finds Vaes Tolorro, Jon & the rest of Mormont's expedition enters Whitetree, and Arya who is still traveling with Yoren stumble into a village consisting of entirely white houses (the remains of Whitewalls?  not sure).   I never did go back and check on a similar situation for Tyrion/Sansa/etc, but I am certain that even just the three scenarios above mean something, because each's experience in the respective "white" places is a major turning point in their stories.

 

2 hours ago, St Daga said:

I don't know if it's the Starks or Dayne's but I do agree this must link back to the first men in some way, and their blood lines. But I do wonder if we have a couple different levels of first men. Like there are First Men and then are FIRST MEN? Something in my head links this to Garth Greenhand and the children that he spread, and the eventual bloodlines of those children. I actually have wondered if the Stark's don't have a connection to Asshai, or came from there. This is basically linked to a thought that Dany has in Game where she notes that men from Asshai are "dark" and "solemn". Solemn certainly brings to mind the Starks, and dark at least links to dark hair or dark eyes. While we know that Jon and Arya and Ned all have grey eyes, both Jon and Arya are noted to have eyes described just as dark, Jon's eyes are a dark grey they look almost black, and Catelyn once' refers to Ned's eyes as dark grey. So not just grey, but dark grey. This seem to separate them from say, Roose Bolton and his pale eyes!

Yes to this too!   An idea that I have been toying with based on some other GRRM-centric references is some kind of Great War involving the GEotD, Qarth, and Asshai…cities that possibly were all part of the same empire.   I don't know who was fighting whom, but there was ice magic and shadow magic and fire magic; after this war ended the survivor races splintered, some migrated west, and those became the First First Men like the Starks and the Daynes.     They are all connected though, I am certain of it.    I started researching the history of Mesopotamia/Sumeria/Akkadia to suss out what GRRM might be modeling, but it's a huge project and I've barely made a dent.

[PrettyPig]

On ‎8‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 8:49 AM, St Daga said:

Something about Satin's story, if he is a she, hints at Danny Flint, whom I think shares an ancestor with the Starks, perhaps Arya Flint.

 

On ‎8‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 10:11 AM, PrettyPig said:

 Something that has always stood out for me has been Yoren’s interaction with Arya.  When he first meets her, it is when he comes to meet with Ned to discuss the Watch.   I can’t find the passage right now, but he mistakes her for a boy – when she corrects him, he gives her a very odd look.   Later after Ned is executed, Yoren immediately opts to cut Arya’s hair and smuggle her back to Winterfell under guise of being one of the „boy“ recruits for the NW.

Had a brief flash in the pan re: the seeming connection between Danny Flint and Lyanna, and the idea of a girl dressed as a boy at the Wall.   There are these references to the song:
 

Quote

 

"Did Mance ever sing of Brave Danny Flint?"

"Not as I recall. Who was he?"

"A girl who dressed up like a boy to take the black. Her song is sad and pretty. What happened to her wasn't."   In some versions of the song, her ghost still walked the Nightfort.

 

Quote

It was true. The Lord of White Harbor was the very picture of the jolly fat man, laughing and smiling, japing with the other lords and slapping them on the back, calling out to the musicians for this tune or that tune. "Give us 'The Night That Ended,' singer," he bellowed. "The bride will like that one, I know. Or sing to us of brave young Danny Flint and make us weep." 

And of course the "bard" to whom Lord Manderly is making these requests is Mance Rayder, former man of the Night's Watch.

Which makes me think of this:

Quote

"Under Harren's roof he ate and drank with the wolves, and many of their sworn swords besides, barrowdown men and moose and bears and mermen. The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head. A black brother spoke, asking the knights to join the Night's Watch.

 

I think I know what song Rhaegar sang at the Tourney of Harrenhal  - and now I wonder if Lyanna may have been 'inspired' by brave young Danny Flint.

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

I think I know what song Rhaegar sang at the Tourney of Harrenhal  - and now I wonder if Lyanna may have been 'inspired' by brave young Danny Flint.

It's funny that you bring this up, because I just finished watching Preston Jacob's latest video on the Craster's Keep, where he came to a conclusion that there is a genetic significance to the sons of women from House Flint (the old House Flint).  He believes that there is some significance to their sacrifice, and seems to be of the belief that Craster's mom/wives, may all descended from a female flint.

If so, then it should be noted that Lyanna is also descended from a maternal line from House Flint...

 

[Melifeather]

14 hours ago, St Daga said:

Both Ned and Barristan think of Rhaegar naming Lyanna "queen" of the tourney of Harrenhal. Ned just says "queen of beauty" while Barristan calls her the "queen of love and beauty". We also get this information from Dany, but she would only have the second hand information so she is only basing this on what she was told. The World Book also states it, although that information could certainly be swayed to fit a certain perception. Interestingly, Jojen's Harrenhal story does not include "crowning" Lyanna. I thought it was noted in Kevan Lannister's POV also, but now I can't find it, if it does say so.

It would be interesting if Lyanna did take a dragon egg, but I am not sure it would have been at Harrenhal. If the egg was stolen there (this might explain some of Aery's temper, if it was Aerys who brought the egg) but would anyone have been allowed to leave Harrenhal until the culprit was discovered. I haven't read D&E, so I don't know how that story line about the stolen egg flows.

I do like this connection, twice, to Braavos and the fleeing of the dragon lords. 

ETA: Ned's recollection does come from his fever dream/memory from the Black Cells, so might be questionable. Barristan's is a legit memory, but sometimes I don't even believe him when he remembers Ashara's hair was dark. So ...

I guess it comes down to timing. When did Aerys send Rhaegar out to look for the Knight of the Laughing Tree? The third day of the tournament is when Rhaegar had his winning streak. Would the crowning have occurred immediately after his last match? It's not like he had the time to go searching for the KotLT on the same day he was tilting, but that would have been the same day that they noticed the knight was missing from the lists.

[Melifeather]

12 hours ago, St Daga said:

would you mind sharing links to your thoughts on the Lannister's being behind Lyanna's kidnapping? While I have not been convinced that Robert was behind Lyanna's kidnapping, I have wondered about Jaime, who is another candidate you have presented. Jaime might not have even needed look alike armor or a helm, people just needed to be told that Rhaegar did it. After all, Catelyn is in disguise at the Inn at the Crossroads, and no one recognizes her until Tyrion does, how could this apply to Lyanna and her wolf blood?

Were you thinking of the Tywin + Lyanna = Dead Girl?

I haven't looked this essay over in awhile. There's probably parts of it that I no longer agree with, but the main theory about him being involved in the abduction remains the same.

[St Daga]

13 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

Quote

Behind was another door, hidden. It was old grey wood, splintery and plain... but it stood to the right of the door through which she’d entered. The wizards were beckoning her with voices sweeter than song. She ran from them, Drogon flying back down to her. Through the narrow door she passed, into a chamber awash in gloom.

A long stone table filled this room. Above it floated a human heart, swollen and blue with corruption, yet still alive. It beat, a deep ponderous throb of sound, and each pulse sent out a wash of indigo light. The figures around the table were no more than blue shadows. As Dany walked to the empty chair at the foot of the table, they did not stir, nor speak, nor turn to face her. There was no sound but the slow, deep beat of the rotting heart.

Through the indigo murk, she could make out the wizened features of the Undying One to her right, an old old man, wrinkled and hairless. His flesh was a ripe violet-blue, his lips and nails bluer still, so dark they were almost black. Even the whites of his eyes were blue. They stared unseeing at the ancient woman on the opposite side of the table, whose gown of pale silk had rotted on her body. One withered breast was left bare in the Qartheen manner, to show a pointed blue nipple hard as leather.

So definitely the association with blue/indigo light here, in Dany's trip to the Blue Room of the HOTU that is all about rot and corruption and deception.

I have always associated this human heart, swollen with corruption, blue, slow throb/slow beat, rotting, as a nod to Gregor Clegane and what would happen to him. People standing around in blue shadows hints at Qybern and Cersei and perhaps Oberyn, as people who lead Gregor to this fate. Of course, that could be a much to simple interpretation, but blue/black and swollen seems to hint at the human body in dead-but-not-quite-dead state.

13 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

That Vaes Tolorro chapter is telling anyway, because it is the first of three back-to-back chapters (Dany, Jon, Arya) that have our main characters encountering a white city - DanyCo finds Vaes Tolorro, Jon & the rest of Mormont's expedition enters Whitetree, and Arya who is still traveling with Yoren stumble into a village consisting of entirely white houses (the remains of Whitewalls?  not sure).   I never did go back and check on a similar situation for Tyrion/Sansa/etc, but I am certain that even just the three scenarios above mean something, because each's experience in the respective "white" places is a major turning point in their stories.

I have never noticed this nod to three white cities in a row, but it is interesting. Vaes Tolorro has always made me think of Minas Tirith from TLOTR. I just thought it was a nod to Tolkein and didn't give it another thought. But when you point out the three "white" towns or cities being connected together, it seems I have missed some symbolism.

12 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

Which makes me think of this:

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"Under Harren's roof he ate and drank with the wolves, and many of their sworn swords besides, barrowdown men and moose and bears and mermen. The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head. A black brother spoke, asking the knights to join the Night's Watch.

I think I know what song Rhaegar sang at the Tourney of Harrenhal  - and now I wonder if Lyanna may have been 'inspired' by brave young Danny Flint.

Well, if Rhaegar was singing the song of Brave Danny Flint, it could explain why "his" song always made women cry. Don't we get that information from JonCon that Rhaegar's "song" always made women cry? I song about a woman who was raped to death for choosing to live outside of her normal role in society is awful. It also brings to mind the thoughts that Robert has on Rhaegar's kidnapping of Lyanna. "And Rhaegar … how many times do you think he raped your sister? How many hundreds of times?" Perhaps Robert is also responding to what he knows of the song of Danny Flint?

 

[St Daga]

11 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

13 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

I think I know what song Rhaegar sang at the Tourney of Harrenhal  - and now I wonder if Lyanna may have been 'inspired' by brave young Danny Flint.

It's funny that you bring this up, because I just finished watching Preston Jacob's latest video on the Craster's Keep, where he came to a conclusion that there is a genetic significance to the sons of women from House Flint (the old House Flint).  He believes that there is some significance to their sacrifice, and seems to be of the belief that Craster's mom/wives, may all descended from a female flint.

If so, then it should be noted that Lyanna is also descended from a maternal line from House Flint...

 

I watched that a couple days ago, and thought he made some pretty large leaps, so much that I laughed out loud at one point, but the connection to the Flints might be correct. We are given information on how Bran's a good climber because of the Flints, and I just read the chapter in Storm where Meera climbs the wall, and it brought to mind that comment from Old Nan. Bran doesn't think that Meera climbs as good as he would, but she does a good job. Hints again at the Meera/Jon twin connection. Arya also brings to mind the Flints, just based on the name of Arya Flint. The fact that there are three families of Flint's in the  north has always thrown me a little bit, as in which Flint belongs were, and how are they all connected? I have some tinfoil that Arya Flint is some how related to Aerea Targareyn, but I don't have much to go on but how similar their names sound. I assumed that Arya became a Stark name because of intermarriage to Aerea, but I wonder if it's the opposite? The Targaryen's were paying homage to the Flint's by using the name Aerea/Arya?

Perhaps there is a Flint/Valyrian connection that I have been missing. A major use of flint is in tools or weapons, as it splits into sharp, thin edges, much like obsidian does. The other major use is in starting fires. Flint, when struck with metal, can cause a spark that can start a blaze.  Perhaps the Flint's are the catalyst of the story?

[St Daga]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I guess it comes down to timing. When did Aerys send Rhaegar out to look for the Knight of the Laughing Tree? The third day of the tournament is when Rhaegar had his winning streak. Would the crowning have occurred immediately after his last match? It's not like he had the time to go searching for the KotLT on the same day he was tilting, but that would have been the same day that they noticed the knight was missing from the lists.

Well, my impression from Jojen's story is that the dragon prince was sent to find tKotLT before Rhaegar's final jousting day, but that story could be told to confuse the order of events.

After looking the text over again, the story says there were five days of jousting planned, so I would think that the final jousts would be on fifth day. We are never given the information on whether the jousting lasted 5 days or not, or if it turned out to be more or less. Day 2 seems to be when tKofLT shows up and starts his/her quest, but it seems that by this time there have already been five champions picked  (if this is day two and we already have the five champions that are to face each other, I am not sure how the jousting tourney was set up). On day three, TKofLT does not show up, and that night seems to be when Robert and Lonmouth swore to unmask him. It is the  next day, when tKotLT doesn't show up that Aerys seems to send Rhaegar to find the mystery knight. This would be day 4. Then, Rhaegar must have won his jousts on day 5 and become champion. But, I don't know if all 5 jousting days were concurrent or if there were days off in between?

I just picked out the text on the five days of jousting. The attack on the crannogman and the initial feast must have been held before the jousting started, I would think. Except, that is NOT how the Hands Tourney works, but it was planned for two days only. Ned, trying to save money, I suppose.

 

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"Five days of jousting were planned," she said. "There was a great seven-sided mêlée as well, and archery and axe-throwing, a horse race and tourney of singers . . ."

 

"Never mind about all that." Bran squirmed impatiently in his basket on Hodor's back. "Tell about the jousting."

"As my prince commands. The daughter of the castle was the queen of love and beauty, with four brothers and an uncle to defend her, but all four sons of Harrenhal were defeated on the first day. Their conquerors reigned briefly as champions, until they were vanquished in turn. As it happened, the end of the first day saw the porcupine knight win a place among the champions, and on the morning of the second day the pitchfork knight and the knight of the two towers were victorious as well. But late on the afternoon of that second day, as the shadows grew long, a mystery knight appeared in the lists."

...

"Perhaps they did. The mystery knight dipped his lance before the king and rode to the end of the lists, where the five champions had their pavilions. You know the three he challenged."

 

"The porcupine knight, the pitchfork knight, and the knight of the twin towers." Bran had heard enough stories to know that. "He was the little crannogman, I told you."

 

"Whoever he was, the old gods gave strength to his arm. The porcupine knight fell first, then the pitchfork knight, and lastly the knight of the two towers. None were well loved, so the common folk cheered lustily for the Knight of the Laughing Tree, as the new champion soon was called. When his fallen foes sought to ransom horse and armor, the Knight of the Laughing Tree spoke in a booming voice through his helm, saying, 'Teach your squires honor, that shall be ransom enough.' Once the defeated knights chastised their squires sharply, their horses and armor were returned. And so the little crannogman's prayer was answered . . . by the green men, or the old gods, or the children of the forest, who can say?"

...

"That night at the great castle, the storm lord and the knight of skulls and kisses each swore they would unmask him, and the king himself urged men to challenge him, declaring that the face behind that helm was no friend of his. But the next morning, when the heralds blew their trumpets and the king took his seat, only two champions appeared. The Knight of the Laughing Tree had vanished. The king was wroth, and even sent his son the dragon prince to seek the man, but all they ever found was his painted shield, hanging abandoned in a tree. It was the dragon prince who won that tourney in the end." ASOS-Bran II

 

Reading this always confuses me. Day One of the joust we have the 4 sons of Harrenhal defeated (no mention of Uncle/Kingsguard Whent, so do I assume he was still a champion? Also, the Porcupine Knight becomes a champion.

Day Two Pitchfork and Twin Towers are now champions. At the end of this day, when the shadows were long, a mystery knight appeared.

Here is where I get confused. It must be growing dark, so did they continue to joust that day, or not? The mystery knight goes to the tents of all 5 champions (but we don't know the other two, is it Oswell Whent and Rhaegar? It's left very vague. We are also not told if the challenge was made on the same day as the three jousts, or if the challenge was made on a day (day 2) and the jousts occurred the next day (day 3)???

So, perhaps on night 2 or 3 of the joust, we have Robert and his drinking buddy swearing to unmask the mystery knight.

The next morning, so is it day 3 now or day 4? we have the mystery knight not showing up and Aerys getting all pissed up. And this day he sends Rhaegar after the mystery knight but Rhaegar only finds a shield. How did all of this searching for the mystery knight throw of the jousting schedule, and if we have Porcupine, Pitchfork, and Twin Towers being replaced by Laughing Tree, we still have two champions unnamed. One must be Rhaegar, but who is the other? Is it Oswell Whent, or someone else.

And how do we know what day Rhaegar had his winning streak? How did he get to be a champion already by day 2 (by the end of day two there were already five champions), if the mystery knight road to the tents of the 5 champions by the evening of day 2! Rhaegar's winning streak could have happened on day 1 or 2.

And how many jousts might have occurred that this story doesn't tell us, as we get some of this information from Ned in the Black Cells, although he is feverish and in pain, so his information might not be very good.

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Yet when the jousting began, the day belonged to Rhaegar Targaryen. The crown prince wore the armor he would die in: gleaming black plate with the three-headed dragon of his House wrought in rubies on the breast. A plume of scarlet silk streamed behind him when he rode, and it seemed no lance could touch him. Brandon fell to him, and Bronze Yohn Royce, and even the splendid Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. AGOT-Eddard XV

Ned seems to give us his information as happening in one day. "The day" belonged to Rhaegar. How the hell was this tourney set up. We also know that Barristan was defeated by Rhaegar, or at least I think we get that information from Barristan's POV. Sometimes I think GRRM just is throwing information at us with no real care of how it lines up? 

 

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

15 hours ago, St Daga said:

would you mind sharing links to your thoughts on the Lannister's being behind Lyanna's kidnapping? While I have not been convinced that Robert was behind Lyanna's kidnapping, I have wondered about Jaime, who is another candidate you have presented. Jaime might not have even needed look alike armor or a helm, people just needed to be told that Rhaegar did it. After all, Catelyn is in disguise at the Inn at the Crossroads, and no one recognizes her until Tyrion does, how could this apply to Lyanna and her wolf blood?

Were you thinking of the Tywin + Lyanna = Dead Girl?

I haven't looked this essay over in awhile. There's probably parts of it that I no longer agree with, but the main theory about him being involved in the abduction remains the same.

Thank you. I will read over it.