Heresy 211 Eight Cairns

[Melifeather]

26 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Doran's gout is a physical manifestation of Tywin's emotional need to be respected.

IMO this is a powerful metaphor. Once you understand how debilitating Doran's gout is, and realize that it's meant to be a physical representation of how dominant Tywin's emotions are at motivating his actions when he's feeling disrespected, you'll finally realize what the man is capable of doing. This is a man that not only massacred the Tarbecks and Reynes, he orchestrated the Red Wedding too for gods sake! Why anyone would doubt that he also was the brain behind the Rebellion is beyond me.

[Melifeather]

14 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Attempting to revisit the idea of cairns in the story. It occurred to me last night that cairns are very like the barrow's that we hear of in the north. A burial mound, regardless of what substance covered the body. So, when Ned build eight cairns on the ridge, he basically built eight barrows of stone.

Some barrows and cairns in the world are quite small, covering a single set of remains, while some are larger, very large even, and consist of tunnels and chambers and rooms and multiple bodies. 

We are told that the Stark's bury their dead in the crypts bellow Winterfell, which seems different than what we hear of in the rest of Westeros. But what if the rise or hill the Winterfell sits on or is just a giant barrow, the stones over it, the castle itself could be referred to as a cairn. The tunnels and passages under Winterfell are just the tunnels and rooms of the great cairn/barrow of the north. If this is the case, it's larger in size than even the great barrow.

Burying your dead in barrows seems to be a practice associated with the first men, and we are introduced to them early in our story. Ned and Robert riding in the Barrowlands.

 

Here, Robert seems a little unhappy that they are riding through what could be a grave yard, but Eddard isn't upset. This is comfortable for him, even for a boy who spent his formative years in the vale. We also associate the barrows with the First Men very early in the story. "There are barrows everywhere in the north, your Grace" could easily be interpreted to "There are graves/crypts/cairns everywhere in the north, Your Grace".

 

Now, Eddard doesn't seem to be upset while talking to Robert about these barrow/graves, but this chapter opens with Ned being shaken roughly from his dreams to go riding with Robert. Does Ned dream every night, or is something in these barrows/graves talking to him?

 

We associate the barrowlands with the north, the first men, we are given information in the story about the barrow kings, Barrow Hall in Barrowtown, we are given information about a castle on the wall known as Long Barrow, which becomes mocked as a Whore's Barrow (this might be an important connection, I can't decide yet). And we are even given information on the Great Barrow. 

 

No body really knows what lies in the Great Barrow, but there are several stories. The area it lies on is associated enough with this barrow and many others to be known as the Barrowlands. The Great Barrow, Barrow Hall, Barrowtown, Barrowlands. This part of the north is important and associated with the First Men, What lies in the Great Barrow, and how long did it take to build it?

The World Book as some interesting information on the Barrowlands and the barrows of the north. Here is one example:

 

So, this brought on a couple of thoughts. First of all, what if Ned's cairns are not in the south of Westeros, but in the south of the North. The barrowlands? We are told that there are stone monuments in the barrow fields. A stone monument sounds an awful lot like a cairn. We also have an associate here to ruins that are left behind, and we know that Eddard "had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge.", which basically leaves us with ruins (tower) and stone cairns (monuments) in the barrow fields.

 

 

The only reason I am looking at this next quote, while it's all interesting, is the comment on the directions. We are told that Martyn Cassel is buried far in the south, but south and north can be very relative. I live in a northern state, along the Canadian border, and I consider myself from the north, but I am still south of Canada. Calgary is a long drive for me, but not nearly as far as traveling to Edmonton. Distance and direction can be very specific or vague. The barrowlands are south in relation to Winterfell, an eight day ride, we are told, and that could be considered far to the south (of Winterfell). Ned even tells us that the journey to Bear Island is long, but honestly, it's not nearly as long as traveling to Storms End. It's all relative and I do think GRRM plays with that. Bear Island is a long journey and perhaps the barrowlands are "far" to the south, of Winterfell.

 

 I have always been drawn to Moat Cailin as an important location in this story, and there are several tower there that have fallen, (tower long fallen, perhaps?) and the three that are still "standing" are not in the best repair. Three is important in out story, and these three towers seem to connect to that idea of threes. GRRM gave us three towers and three kingsguard for a reason.  But it's a strong place, in magic (think CotF), and in defending attack from the south. It reminds me a bit of the castles on on the wall, which do not have walls to protect them from "the north", and they are meant to protect what comes from north of the north. Those castles on the wall, and Moat Cailin are not meant to defend attackers from within the north, they are meant to attack what could attack THE north.

 

So, perhaps Ned's cairns/barrows are built from the stones of a ruined tower in the barrowlands. Perhaps this has been discussed before, but it's certainly not something I have ever considered. 

 

So, Moat Cailin is a magic place, it has three towers, it lies in the barrowlands, which are tied to many graves. Moat Cailin lies on the edge of the barrowlands and the neck. I am not sold on the idea that the toj was a place for sacrifice to give birth to a great magic dragon, but I am not opposed to the idea either. If Rhaegar was looking for a place to perform his magic rite, perhaps he would chose the barrowlands, a place that we are told to associate with the corpse queen, a woman who might have been dead but lived to rule along side the Night's King for thirteen years. Perhaps the reason no one knows what happened at the toj, was because no one knows, because the north keeps things to themselves.

 

I know I have entered tinfoil territory here, but this all sprung from thoughts of cairns being stony barrows, and what that could imply to the place where Ned's seven faced three men in white cloaks. I would love some thoughts, even if it's to tell me I'm off the deep end. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree somewhat. The parts I agree with are that Ned's men are not buried in Dorne, but rather far to the south of Winterfell, and possibly north of Kings Landing. The barrow lands are a possibility, and the line about, "... there are stone monuments in the barrow fields and elsewhere marked with their runes. It is through these remnants that we can begin to ferret out the truth behind the tales." seems to be confirmation that the  Ned was lying about the location where his men are buried, and those lies are connected to the promises he made to Lyanna. 

I still maintain that the tower of joy was never a place in Dorne, but rather a nickname given to Maegor's Tower. The secret spaces under the tower hint at black magic. I'm not so sure Rhaegar himself practiced the dark arts, but he knew about them. His words to Jaime that he was going to change things implies that he intended to stop his father.

[SirArthur]

 

Quote

As he climbed a wide flight of wooden steps to the hall, Reek's legs began to shake. He had to stop to steady them, staring up at the grassy slopes of the Great Barrow. Some claimed it was the grave of the First King, who had led the First Men to Westeros. Others argued that it must be some King of the Giants who was buried there, to account for its size. A few had even been known to say it wasno barrow, just a hill, but if so it was a lonely hill, for most of the barrowlands were flat and windswept. ADWD-Reek III

No body really knows what lies in the Great Barrow, but there are several stories. The area it lies on is associated enough with this barrow and many others to be known as the Barrowlands. The Great Barrow, Barrow Hall, Barrowtown, Barrowlands. This part of the north is important and associated with the First Men, What lies in the Great Barrow, and how long did it take to build it?

I find it intriguing that the giants speaks the language of the First Men, while the northerners speak the language of the Andals. That plus the story of giants woken from earth by the Horn of Winter. 

The Giants also helped in the building of the Wall and Winterfell. Maybe we should look more into Giant/First Men connections. Even some tinfoil ideas like the First Men as Giants.

[Frey family reunion]

16 hours ago, St Daga said:

I think the real Quentyn might be Garris Drinkwater. and the person we think was Quentyn was an orphan from the water gardens. What do people from Norvos look like? No description but I think we will find they are blond and blue eyes, like Garris. Right now, I can't look away from Sam as Aegon

The problem with this, is that Quentyn was said to resemble his "father", Doran.  And then we have this exchange, overheard, by Arianne between Doran and Mellario:

Quote

"I like it no more than you do,"  Arianne had overheard her father say, "but there is a blood debt, and Quentyn is the only coin Lord Ormond will accept."

"Coin," her mother had screamed.  "He is your son.  What sort of father uses his own flesh and blood to pay his debts?"

So I do agree that Mellario and Doran could have been surreptitiously adopting children from the Water Gardens and considering them their children, but Mellario goes one step farther and says that Quentyn is Doran's own flesh and blood.

So while I think Quentyn may be an adopted son of Doran, I think that he is still Quentyn's blood, in this case, it would be his nephew.

But if you look at the descriptions of Arianne and Trystane things get interesting.  Both Arianne and Trystane are described as having dark hair and olive skin.  In other words they appear "salty" Dornish.  However, Quentyn is said to resemble his father, and neither are described in this manner.  In fact Quentyn appears to be kind of brown haired and bland.  And while we don't know what Mellario looks like, it does not appear that Norvos is populated by olive skinned Rhoynish either, according to the Worldbook.  So where did Arianne and Trystane get their looks?  Oberyn has black hair, but he does not have olive skin.

My guess is that Mellario and Doran may have secretly adopted all of their children, Arianne and Trystane from the Water Gardens, but Quentyn may have been Elia's child, switched early on after his birth. 

My gut tells me that Quentyn/Aegon may have originally been intended to be passed through fire at the tower of joy, if Rhaegar did indeed plan on transferring Aegon's consciousness into a dragon, but those plans were foiled. 

Now fast forward, and while it appears that Quentyn's story ended when he was killed by the dragon flame, I have a gut feeling that at least part of Quentyn's psyche lives on inside one of the dragons, my guess is Viserion. 

Note that Dany's little handmaiden, Missandei, was spending a lot of time in the bedside by the burnt and dying Quentyn.  Missandei appears to have some type of special connection to the dragons, claiming that she can hear their clawing when no one else can.  My thought is Missandei spent the time with a dying Quentyn to help prepare him for his journey into his next life as one of Dany's dragons.

[St Daga]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I agree somewhat. The parts I agree with are that Ned's men are not buried in Dorne, but rather far to the south of Winterfell, and possibly north of Kings Landing. The barrow lands are a possibility, and the line about, "... there are stone monuments in the barrow fields and elsewhere marked with their runes. It is through these remnants that we can begin to ferret out the truth behind the tales." seems to be confirmation that the  Ned was lying about the location where his men are buried, and those lies are connected to the promises he made to Lyanna. 

This idea of cairns and barrows being different only in what they are made of is a new thought for me, but there is something about the idea of corpes connected with the barrowlands that intrigues me. We get the idea of giants rising from the earth in the story and in the barrowlands we are presented with the idea of giants being buried under the barrows. What if everything that is buried under the barrows could rise again? I used to think this was very different from the Stark burials, but now I am not so sure. The barrowlands are connected to Ned's toj dream by Lord Dustin and his red stallion.

Also, another area that borders the barrowlands is the Rills where the Ryswell's call home. This just happens to be where the red stallion that Barbrey gave to her Lord Dustin came from, from her father's herds, she say. A story that always sticks out to me about the Ryswell's is the seventy-nine sentinels, one of which was a son of Lord Ryswell, being sent back to the wall by Lord Ryswell, buried alive in the ice, with a horn and a spear, waiting, waiting... and when that Lord Ryswell grew old, he too took the black so he could serve beside his son. This story also hints at life after death. Mark Ryswell is also connected to Ned's toj dream.

If a person wanted to reincarnate Rhaegar, would then not go to a place that could hold the magic to do this? It just seems like the barrowlands could be a place to do this.

This is even more tinfoil than before, but Barbrey Dustin wants Ned's bones. She says she will feed them to her dogs, but I don't trust her or believe this is her true intention. It could be, but I think she might want those bones for something else. Some of this ties to her lingering look at Ned's features in the crypts and the fact that his statue is missing it's sword and his crypt is missing it's bones. Lingering? Why does he gaze linger? I think she could have cared for Ned, and I think she could be after his bones for some sort of magic. What if she thought she could raise him? She is connected to both the barrowlands and the rills, by birth, marriage and life.

So if my tinfoil that Barbrey wants to raise Ned from the dead, and she says his bones will not get past Barrowtown. If those bones travel north from the Neck, Barrowton is far to the west and out of the path of Winterfell. If they end up in Barrowtown, then have been taken there for a reason. IF, big if here, that is Barbrey's plan, then perhaps this isn't the first time someone took some bones/remains to the barrowlands to be rejuvenated?

Some of my idea's that the toj was in the north is based on the artwork from the wiki page. I know it's bad form to dream up ideas based on artwork, but when looking at the toj picture in the wiki, it actually shows two variations of the same image. A red tower in with red mountains surrounding it, and a grey tower with grey mountains surrounding it. There is no real reason why there are two versions of this picture, The caption claims the bottom image was the original, and the top image colored to match the setting of Dorne.

tower of joy wiki page

I suppose this artwork has been discussed before and I am way off base, but it stands out to me as odd.

I have felt for a long time that Lyanna died in the north, and for years I thought she was at the toj. Now, I am not sure she was there (where ever it is), but I can't shake the thought that something of importance went down far from where people commonly think it went down. What is opposite of Dorne in this story, but still fiercely independent, remaining separate culturally from most of the seven kingdoms, and isolated by geography. The north!

 

 

[Tucu]

19 minutes ago, St Daga said:

This is even more tinfoil than before, but Barbrey Dustin wants Ned's bones. She says she will feed them to her dogs, but I don't trust her or believe this is her true intention. It could be, but I think she might want those bones for something else. Some of this ties to her lingering look at Ned's features in the crypts and the fact that his statue is missing it's sword and his crypt is missing it's bones. Lingering? Why does he gaze linger? I think she could have cared for Ned, and I think she could be after his bones for some sort of magic. What if she thought she could raise him? She is connected to both the barrowlands and the rills, by birth, marriage and life.

 

My bet on the lingering is for a small confirmation on the rumours that there are surviving Stark kids running around.

With regards to the barrows; I think that is another hint that the books are a ghost story and not a dark lord story. Shadows, barrows, ghosts, dinner of the dead, the Undying, wights, Coldhands, Stoneheart, Jamie's mother visit, etc.

[St Daga]

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

5 hours ago, St Daga said:

I needed to go back and revisit this. Do you think that Rhaegar was the plum eyed singer? That he could be Brienne's father? I do get the size comparison to Duncan the Tall, if he turns out to be an ancestor, but I think there is a connection for Brienne that is connected to the players in the previous rebellion.

No I think the singer is supposed to be female

Yes, I had to go back and find it and reread that text. It was a female singer from across the narrow sea, or that is where Brienne thinks she came from. It's part of a discussion about singing, which ties to Sansa singing and playing the high harp, and Brienne never singing for her father or Renly. It's rather a sad exchange but the part about the female singer with the purple eyes never stood out to me before now. Thanks for the information. 

I wonder if the woman was from Essos or Brienne was mistaken, or misled?

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

18 hours ago, St Daga said:

I think the real Quentyn might be Garris Drinkwater. and the person we think was Quentyn was an orphan from the water gardens. What do people from Norvos look like? No description but I think we will find they are blond and blue eyes, like Garris. Right now, I can't look away from Sam as Aegon

The problem with this, is that Quentyn was said to resemble his "father", Doran.  And then we have this exchange, overheard, by Arianne between Doran and Mellario:

Quote

"I like it no more than you do,"  Arianne had overheard her father say, "but there is a blood debt, and Quentyn is the only coin Lord Ormond will accept."

"Coin," her mother had screamed.  "He is your son.  What sort of father uses his own flesh and blood to pay his debts?"

So I do agree that Mellario and Doran could have been surreptitiously adopting children from the Water Gardens and considering them their children, but Mellario goes one step farther and says that Quentyn is Doran's own flesh and blood.

So while I think Quentyn may be an adopted son of Doran, I think that he is still Quentyn's blood, in this case, it would be his nephew.

But if you look at the descriptions of Arianne and Trystane things get interesting.  Both Arianne and Trystane are described as having dark hair and olive skin.  In other words they appear "salty" Dornish.  However, Quentyn is said to resemble his father, and neither are described in this manner.  In fact Quentyn appears to be kind of brown haired and bland.  And while we don't know what Mellario looks like, it does not appear that Norvos is populated by olive skinned Rhoynish either, according to the Worldbook.  So where did Arianne and Trystane get their looks?  Oberyn has black hair, but he does not have olive skin.

My guess is that Mellario and Doran may have secretly adopted all of their children, Arianne and Trystane from the Water Gardens, but Quentyn may have been Elia's child, switched early on after his birth. 

My gut tells me that Quentyn/Aegon may have originally been intended to be passed through fire at the tower of joy, if Rhaegar did indeed plan on transferring Aegon's consciousness into a dragon, but those plans were foiled. 

Now fast forward, and while it appears that Quentyn's story ended when he was killed by the dragon flame, I have a gut feeling that at least part of Quentyn's psyche lives on inside one of the dragons, my guess is Viserion. 

Note that Dany's little handmaiden, Missandei, was spending a lot of time in the bedside by the burnt and dying Quentyn.  Missandei appears to have some type of special connection to the dragons, claiming that she can hear their clawing when no one else can.  My thought is Missandei spent the time with a dying Quentyn to help prepare him for his journey into his next life as one of Dany's dragons.

I think what you propose is entirely plausible. It is a wonder of GRRM's writing that here are so many plausible possibilities and directions for the story to take.

Doran doesn't fit his siblings any more than Quentyn fit's with his. We don't know anything about Doran's father, I don't think. Of the father of Elia and Oberyn, if they have the same father? There were also two other brother's who have died. I have wondered if Doran's mother had more than one marriage, with Doran being from a previous marriage, and Elia and Oberyn from a different marriage. We also have Lewyn Martell, who would have been Doran uncle who had a paramour and perhaps children, so it's possible any of those children could be Lewyn's children that were adopted.

Anyway you stack it, something that has to do with false identities is going on in Dorne. Also odd is the fact that Tyrion wants Myrcella betrothed to Trystane, the younger son, and not Quentyn, the elder son who is only one step away from being his father's heir.

Something that stands out to me is Arianne's beauty. While she reports she was a homely child, she has grown into a beautiful woman who is described as bewitching, lush, and buxom, and his highly sexual. Now, we are told she resembles her mother, but is that true or is it misleading us. We don't know what Mellario is supposed to look like, all we are told is that she is short, like Arianne is short. One descriptor that stands out to me about Arianne is her hair, described as "a mane of jet-black ringlets that fell to the small of her back". I don't know why, but if her hair was not black, I would think they were describing a Lannister or a Targaryen, with all those ringlets, and all that stunning beauty. I might be wrong about Arianne being Rhaenys, but I don't think she is who she claims to be. And I don't think she knows it.

If you think that all three children of Mellario and Doran are adopted, do you think they actually had children and that Mellario took them back to Norvos, or that they never had children of their marriage?

[SirArthur]

31 minutes ago, St Daga said:

So if my tinfoil that Barbrey wants to raise Ned from the dead, and she says his bones will not get past Barrowtown. If those bones travel north from the Neck, Barrowton is far to the west and out of the path of Winterfell. If they end up in Barrowtown, then have been taken there for a reason. IF, big if here, that is Barbrey's plan, then perhaps this isn't the first time someone took some bones/remains to the barrowlands to be rejuvenated?

The forces taking Moat Cailin include Ryswells and Dustin forces. And "Lord Dustin"'s sigil in Ramsey's letter. 

[St Daga]

3 hours ago, SirArthur said:

I find it intriguing that the giants speaks the language of the First Men, while the northerners speak the language of the Andals. That plus the story of giants woken from earth by the Horn of Winter. 

The Giants also helped in the building of the Wall and Winterfell. Maybe we should look more into Giant/First Men connections. Even some tinfoil ideas like the First Men as Giants.

The language discrepancy of the north not speaking the old tongue is interesting. I am not sure what to make of that. But even wildlings north of the wall speak the common tongue, I think. Many of them speak the old tongue, but Ygritte speaks the common tongue with Jon, as does Mance and Tormund. But the giants exclusively speak the Old Tongue. The Thenns mostly speak the Old Tongue and little of the common language, and I think it's implied they speak the Old Tongue on Skagos, as well.

It is certainly hinted in the story that giant blood remains in Westeros, seen in people of great size, like the Clegane brothers, or Duncan the Tall, or even in Brienne, it's possible.

If Garth Greenhand was the original First Man, and his body is buried in the great barrow, then I see no reason to think that he could have been a giant, or had giant's blood.

[St Daga]

20 minutes ago, Tucu said:

My bet on the lingering is for a small confirmation on the rumours that there are surviving Stark kids running around.

So, looking so hard at Ned's statue would tell Barbrey what about the looks of his children? I think it is pretty common knowledge that only two of Ned's kids' resemble him or the Stark's, and that is Jon and Arya. Unless Barbrey knows of other children that might be Ned's? The only person that Barbrey has laid eyes on is Jeyne Poole, and I am pretty certain that Barbrey knows she is a fake, probably even before Roose brought the girl north. Most everyone seems to know that Jeyne is a fake in Arya's place. Even if there are rumors of Bran and Rickon being alive, we are under the impression those boys do not look like Ned.

Barbrey is odd in the crypts. She touches Brandon's leg in a gently manner, and her gaze lingers' on Eddard's statute. Theon doesn't notice her gaze on Lyanna's statue at all. She studies Rickard's face but Theon doesn't give us any information on what her expression might say. Still, she seems to look the hardest at Rickard and Ned. Why? Perhaps Ned doesn't look like Rickard? Perhaps he looks just like him? I don't know.

Her words can be a lie, but I think her actions are true. She looks at Rickard and Ned, she touches Brandon's knee (is this where Bran's torch touched the statue when they all escaped Theon?), If so, no one makes note of burn marks on the stone. She pays no attention to Lyanna's statue at all, although she speaks of her bones. She very specifically notes what statues are missing swords, although she doesn't note out loud that Ned's sword is missing, too. Osha took that one.

I don't know why but the whole exchange is very odd! Every time I read it, and I have read it more times than I care to admit, I am left feeling like I am missing the hidden message.

[St Daga]

25 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

The forces taking Moat Cailin include Ryswells and Dustin forces. And "Lord Dustin"'s sigil in Ramsey's letter. 

I honestly don't know what the heck is going on with the Pink Letter, but it's odd as can be that Lord Dustin, who is dead, is signing that letter. It's a clue, I just have no idea how to interpret it. I guess Jon didn't know, either!

 

[SirArthur]

15 minutes ago, St Daga said:

I honestly don't know what the heck is going on with the Pink Letter, but it's odd as can be that Lord Dustin, who is dead, is signing that letter. It's a clue, I just have no idea how to interpret it. I guess Jon didn't know, either!

 

No, it is not the pink letter. There is a second letter earlier from Ramsey to Deepwood Motte in Ironborn hands. Stannis intercepts the letter. The pink letter is actually signed by Lady Dustin as far as I remember. 

Also it is not signed by Lord Dustin, it has Lord Dustin's sigil. Don't know if GRRM trolls us or if there is more to it.

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

If you think that all three children of Mellario and Doran are adopted, do you think they actually had children and that Mellario took them back to Norvos, or that they never had children of their marriage?

If all three are adopted, my guess is they never had any children, at least not together.  But I did go back and look at the passage concerning Arianne and Mellario:

Quote

Her hair was a mane of jet-black ringlets that fell to the small of her back, and around her brow was a band of copper suns.  She is still a little thing, the captain thought.  Where the sand Snakes were tall, Arianne took after her mother, who stood but five foot two. 

This is coming from Areo, so you would think then, that he would know whether Arianne was adopted or not.  So perhaps she is their true born child, or else she Mellario is her mother, but perhaps a Salty Dornishman is in reality her father.  The third possibility, not likely, is that Areo is referring to her biological mother as opposed to Mellario.  It would be interesting to see if Mellario is ever described anywhere.

Also it's an interesting passage, where the Sand Snakes were tall, Arianne took after her mother.   Why is Areo compating Arianne to the Sand Snakes???  They allegedly have two completely different sets of parents.  Oberyn and whomever are the Sand Snakes parents, while Doran and Mellario are Arianne's parents.

Unless of course, Oberyn and Mellario are Arianne's parents.  In other words the Sand Snakes take after their father Oberyn, but Arianne takes after her mother Mellario as opposed to her father, Oberyn.

Hmmmm

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

This idea of cairns and barrows being different only in what they are made of is a new thought for me, but there is something about the idea of corpes connected with the barrowlands that intrigues me. We get the idea of giants rising from the earth in the story and in the barrowlands we are presented with the idea of giants being buried under the barrows. What if everything that is buried under the barrows could rise again? I used to think this was very different from the Stark burials, but now I am not so sure. The barrowlands are connected to Ned's toj dream by Lord Dustin and his red stallion.

Also, another area that borders the barrowlands is the Rills where the Ryswell's call home. This just happens to be where the red stallion that Barbrey gave to her Lord Dustin came from, from her father's herds, she say. A story that always sticks out to me about the Ryswell's is the seventy-nine sentinels, one of which was a son of Lord Ryswell, being sent back to the wall by Lord Ryswell, buried alive in the ice, with a horn and a spear, waiting, waiting... and when that Lord Ryswell grew old, he too took the black so he could serve beside his son. This story also hints at life after death. Mark Ryswell is also connected to Ned's toj dream.

 If a person wanted to reincarnate Rhaegar, would then not go to a place that could hold the magic to do this? It just seems like the barrowlands could be a place to do this.

IMO the connection to barrows are clues that Ned witnessed something that he'd rather forget, but the fact that Lord Dustin's red horse survived is evidence that the resurrection attempt was interrupted and stopped. The descriptions provided for Drogo's resurrection has his bloodriders lowering him into a bath. The reverse would be for Rhaegar's men to take him out of the river and bring him to his pavilion/tent...which means it occurred near the Trident.

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

Also odd is the fact that Tyrion wants Myrcella betrothed to Trystane, the younger son, and not Quentyn, the elder son who is only one step away from being his father's heir.

Tyrion negotiated with Doran. He wanted a marriage alliance, but it was likely Doran's idea who it was to.

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

So, looking so hard at Ned's statue would tell Barbrey what about the looks of his children? I think it is pretty common knowledge that only two of Ned's kids' resemble him or the Stark's, and that is Jon and Arya. Unless Barbrey knows of other children that might be Ned's? The only person that Barbrey has laid eyes on is Jeyne Poole, and I am pretty certain that Barbrey knows she is a fake, probably even before Roose brought the girl north. Most everyone seems to know that Jeyne is a fake in Arya's place. Even if there are rumors of Bran and Rickon being alive, we are under the impression those boys do not look like Ned.

Barbrey is odd in the crypts. She touches Brandon's leg in a gently manner, and her gaze lingers' on Eddard's statute. Theon doesn't notice her gaze on Lyanna's statue at all. She studies Rickard's face but Theon doesn't give us any information on what her expression might say. Still, she seems to look the hardest at Rickard and Ned. Why? Perhaps Ned doesn't look like Rickard? Perhaps he looks just like him? I don't know.

Her words can be a lie, but I think her actions are true. She looks at Rickard and Ned, she touches Brandon's knee (is this where Bran's torch touched the statue when they all escaped Theon?), If so, no one makes note of burn marks on the stone. She pays no attention to Lyanna's statue at all, although she speaks of her bones. She very specifically notes what statues are missing swords, although she doesn't note out loud that Ned's sword is missing, too. Osha took that one.

I don't know why but the whole exchange is very odd! Every time I read it, and I have read it more times than I care to admit, I am left feeling like I am missing the hidden message.

I think she went to the crypts to reflect on what side to pick in the incoming northern civil war. She might hate Ned and Rickard for what happened to Brandon and Willam Dustin, but she also hates Ramsay for Domeric. She probably used Ned's statue as confirmation of fake Arya and the swords as confirmation of the tales of surviving Starks.

I don't think that at that point she had a final decision, but the feeding Ned's bones to the dogs suggest she was trying to hide her doubts from Theon (and the Boltons).

[Melifeather]

The North probably resents Rickard for marrying his children to southron houses. It's an insult to them, and I'm assuming his motivation was to make Lyanna a queen. Lady Barbary has a right to be angry with the Starks. They took away her promise to a man she loved, and then she suspects that Ned didn't tell her the whole truth regarding the circumstances of her husband's death. Is it really any surprise that she'd want to get revenge? She's a woman scorned, and hell hath no fury like hers.

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

No, it is not the pink letter. There is a second letter earlier from Ramsey to Deepwood Motte in Ironborn hands. Stannis intercepts the letter. The pink letter is actually signed by Lady Dustin as far as I remember. 

Also it is not signed by Lord Dustin, it has Lord Dustin's sigil. Don't know if GRRM trolls us or if there is more to it.

You are correct. that did not come from the Pink Letter. I had to do some looking to make sense of all the letters. The pink letter is actually signed by Ramsay Bolton, Trueborn Lord of Winterfell, and had been seal with "smear of hardpink wax", but no seal is noted to be pressed into the wax.

The first letter is from Ramsay to Asha:

Quote

 

"The Bastard of Bolton?" asked Qarl, beside her.

 

"Ramsay Bolton, Lord of Winterfell, he signs himself. But there are other names as well." Lady Dustin, Lady Cerwyn, and four Ryswells had appended their own signatures beneath his. Beside them was drawn a crude giant, the mark of some Umber.

 

Those were done in maester's ink, made of soot and coal tar, but the message above was scrawled in brown in a huge, spiky hand. It spoke of the fall of Moat Cailin, of the triumphant return of the Warden of the North to his domains, of a marriage soon to be made. The first words were, "I write this letter in the blood of ironmen," the last, "I send you each a piece of prince. Linger in my lands, and share his fate."

 

Asha had believed her little brother dead. Better dead than this. The scrap of skin had fallen into her lap. She held it to the candle and watched the smoke curl up, until the last of it had been consumed and the flame was licking at her fingers. ADWD-The Wayward Bride

 

Lady Dustin, and signatures. No seals noted on this letter, or that Asha tells us, anyway. I also forgot that Asha burned this part of Theon, and the flames licked at her fingers.

The second letter is from Ramsay to Jon:

Quote

 

"No, my lord." Clydas thrust the parchment forward. It was tightly rolled and sealed, with a button of hard pink wax. Only the Dreadfort uses pink sealing wax. Jon ripped off his gauntlet, took the letter, cracked the seal. When he saw the signature, he forgot the battering Rattleshirt had given him.

 

Ramsay Bolton, Lord of the Hornwood, it read, in a huge, spiky hand. The brown ink came away in flakes when Jon brushed it with his thumb. Beneath Bolton's signature, Lord Dustin, Lady Cerwyn, and four Ryswells had appended their own marks and seals. A cruder hand had drawn the giant of House Umber. "Might we know what it says, my lord?" asked Iron Emmett.

 

Jon saw no reason not to tell him. "Moat Cailin is taken. The flayed corpses of the ironmen have been nailed to posts along the kingsroad. Roose Bolton summons all leal lords to Barrowton, to affirm their loyalty to the Iron Throne and celebrate his son's wedding to …" His heart seemed to stop for a moment. No, that is not possible. She died in King's Landing, with Father.

 

Lord Snow?" Clydas peered at him closely with his dim pink eyes. "Are you … unwell? You seem …"

 

"He's to marry Arya Stark. My little sister." Jon could almost see her in that moment, long-faced and gawky, all knobby knees and sharp elbows, with her dirty face and tangled hair. They would wash the one and comb the other, he did not doubt, but he could not imagine Arya  in a wedding gown, nor Ramsay Bolton's bed. No matter how afraid she is, she will not show it. If he tries to lay a hand on her, she'll fight him. ADWD-Jon-VI

 

Lord Dustin. Ramsay's signature and marks and seals of the others? And Ramsay again taunting a sibling with the fate of another sibling.

These letters were clearly written around the same time.

So, is it a mistake on the author's part, or does it mean something? Signatures only require a name, but might be harder to forge. A seal could be stolen or a false one forged, I suppose. Either way, Lord Dustin is dead but I suppose this could be the seal of House Dustin, which Lady Dustin would have every right to use. But they seem to include the same people, except for the issue with Lord and Lady Dustin. I don't know what it could mean.

We are given this about Lord and Lady Dustin's banners:

Quote

Lord Bolton led him toward the keep, where the banners were those of the late Lord Dustin and his widowed wife. His showed a spiked crown above crossed longaxes; hers quartered those same arms with Rodrik Ryswell's golden horsehead. ADWD-Reek III

I don't know if their banners match their seal or not, but Lady Dustin has her own banner, quartering her family sigil with her late husbands sigil. Does she do the same with her seal?

Any how, my best guess is this is a mistake on the author's part, like Renly's green eyes.

 

 

 

 

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

This is coming from Areo, so you would think then, that he would know whether Arianne was adopted or not.  So perhaps she is their true born child, or else she Mellario is her mother, but perhaps a Salty Dornishman is in reality her father.  The third possibility, not likely, is that Areo is referring to her biological mother as opposed to Mellario.  It would be interesting to see if Mellario is ever described anywhere.

Also it's an interesting passage, where the Sand Snakes were tall, Arianne took after her mother.   Why is Areo compating Arianne to the Sand Snakes???  They allegedly have two completely different sets of parents.  Oberyn and whomever are the Sand Snakes parents, while Doran and Mellario are Arianne's parents.

Unless of course, Oberyn and Mellario are Arianne's parents.  In other words the Sand Snakes take after their father Oberyn, but Arianne takes after her mother Mellario as opposed to her father, Oberyn.

Hmmmm

Well, Oberyn is not shy about climbing in bed with people, and if Doran needed an heir, he might have helped his brother out. Or Doran doesn't know. Oberyn is said to be tall. It would be a bit creepy because I believe there are hints that Arianne was attracted to her uncle Oberyn.

 

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Tyrion negotiated with Doran. He wanted a marriage alliance, but it was likely Doran's idea who it was to.

This might be how it was worked out. Makes sense.

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

The North probably resents Rickard for marrying his children to southron houses. It's an insult to them, and I'm assuming his motivation was to make Lyanna a queen. Lady Barbary has a right to be angry with the Starks. They took away her promise to a man she loved, and then she suspects that Ned didn't tell her the whole truth regarding the circumstances of her husband's death. Is it really any surprise that she'd want to get revenge? She's a woman scorned, and hell hath no fury like hers.

I don't know if it's insulting when your liege lord marries his children to people outside of the north. Could be, but it might also not be seen that way. The world book lineage gives us two Stark marriages to the Blackwoods, from the Riverlands, and two marriages to House Rogers, from the Stormlands. This would not be the first time a Stark married outside of the north.

If Barbrey feels she lost two opportunities for herself to be the Lady of Winterfell, she might be insulted, but that is only her. When Ned called the banners, houses came to him and went to war with him. If they were truly insulted, then would not have needed to do that. People flocked to Robb's call to arms, and Ned had promised his eldest daughter to a Baratheon, another house outside of the north.

I have a hard time figuring out Barbrey and her true motivations. If she is telling the truth, she is so over the top she is like a  like a cartoon villain, I will think that GRRM has lost his touch. She might be legit with her statements, though.

 

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

I think she went to the crypts to reflect on what side to pick in the incoming northern civil war. She might hate Ned and Rickard for what happened to Brandon and Willam Dustin, but she also hates Ramsay for Domeric. She probably used Ned's statue as confirmation of fake Arya and the swords as confirmation of the tales of surviving Starks.

I don't think that at that point she had a final decision, but the feeding Ned's bones to the dogs suggest she was trying to hide her doubts from Theon (and the Boltons).

Well, I would agree that she is using Theon to feed information to Roose and Ramsay. I don't think she is stupid at all. She has held the lands of her husbands family for fourteen years, and we hear no complaints about her rule. Ned let her rule those lands when he could have found a new husband for her. We know that it is Ned's right as her liege lord to do this, as we are told this with Lady Hornwood and Robb. 

It could be that she is torn. She could also be trying to get Winterfell for herself. She missed it twice in marriage, perhaps she can take the rule another way. She certainly has no love for the Frey's. Did she eat any wedding pie?