Heresy 211 Eight Cairns

[Frey family reunion]

21 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I can see something like this. Rhaegar was obsessed with prophecy and was trying to force something to happen. Howland must have been the one that wanted to stop him, and so prayed for a way "to win". Bloodraven starts things, but doesn't think he's strong enough to see it through so he gets Bran to finish his work.

I do like this quite a bit. 

[St Daga]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Brynden gets Howland through the Greenmen to foil Rhaegar's tower of joy, however, all of the potential sacrifices (the windblown) still end up fulfilling their roles that Rhaegar envisioned when he was preparing the tower of joy scenario.

I can see something like this. Rhaegar was obsessed with prophecy and was trying to force something to happen. Howland must have been the one that wanted to stop him, and so prayed for a way "to win". Bloodraven starts things, but doesn't think he's strong enough to see it through so he gets Bran to finish his work.

Would this put Bloodraven into opposition with House Targaryen's goals? To have dragons seems to be their major goal. It seems like most of what Bloodraven has done has been to help House Targaryan stay strong. Perhaps I am wrong about that however.

It does seem like Bloodraven does need Bran for something, so help makes sense. If Bran is stronger than Bloodraven, then it might be complete a goal or quest.

 

[St Daga]

4 minutes ago, St Daga said:

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Brynden gets Howland through the Greenmen to foil Rhaegar's tower of joy, however, all of the potential sacrifices (the windblown) still end up fulfilling their roles that Rhaegar envisioned when he was preparing the tower of joy scenario.

I can see something like this. Rhaegar was obsessed with prophecy and was trying to force something to happen. Howland must have been the one that wanted to stop him, and so prayed for a way "to win". Bloodraven starts things, but doesn't think he's strong enough to see it through so he gets Bran to finish his work.

Would this put Bloodraven into opposition with House Targaryen's goals? To have dragons seems to be their major goal. It seems like most of what Bloodraven has done has been to help House Targaryan stay strong. Perhaps I am wrong about that however.

It does seem like Bloodraven does need Bran for something, so help makes sense. If Bran is stronger than Bloodraven, then it might be complete a goal or quest.

Actually, perhaps Howland's prayer or request is done in such a way that the "old gods" have no choice but to answer, but it could create a great internal conflict?

[PrettyPig]

5 hours ago, St Daga said:

I also  came across a couples places with cairns that caught my attention, mostly because of the numbers involved. The first area is near Holne Ridge in Devon, England. This area overlooks the River Dart and is called Dartmoor. It consists of eight stone cairns of different shapes and sizes and another monument of stone.

This is fascinating - I love finds like this that make one think you've found a little backdoor into GRRM's brain!   

The "east to west" is intriguing and I wonder if there is an "ice to fire" aspect to it (or another related one) as well.   I am almost finished putting something together on the possible significance of the location of the TOJ, and perhaps its cairns  if that's in fact where they are located, and I am wondering if this reference may work with it.    Off to the maps!

 

ETA:  the 8 cairns + the 1 monument brings to mind the nine weirwoods in a circle beyond the Wall, and the 9 swords from the crown of the old Kings of Winter.   This has to be relevant somehow...

[alienarea]

3 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

This is fascinating - I love finds like this that make one think you've found a little backdoor into GRRM's brain!   

The "east to west" is intriguing and I wonder if there is an "ice to fire" aspect to it (or another related one) as well.   I am almost finished putting something together on the possible significance of the location of the TOJ, and perhaps its cairns  if that's in fact where they are located, and I am wondering if this reference may work with it.    Off to the maps!

 

ETA:  the 8 cairns + the 1 monument brings to mind the nine weirwoods in a circle beyond the Wall, and the 9 swords from the crown of the old Kings of Winter.   This has to be relevant somehow...

Nine rings to the mortals ...

[Melifeather]

5 hours ago, St Daga said:

Would this put Bloodraven into opposition with House Targaryen's goals? To have dragons seems to be their major goal. It seems like most of what Bloodraven has done has been to help House Targaryan stay strong. Perhaps I am wrong about that however.

It does seem like Bloodraven does need Bran for something, so help makes sense. If Bran is stronger than Bloodraven, then it might be complete a goal or quest.

 

Bloodraven has always seemed pro-Targaryen, but perhaps he’s always been more concerned for the realm? He was a greenseer and skinchanger from birth, and the loss of his eye likely opened his third eye, so his motives may have actually been quite ultruistic. 

[SirArthur]

15 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Literary wise, yes I see it. Politically wise, it makes very little sense. Tyrion is not thinking of it literary, he is supposedly making a political match. So why third son? 

Hmm. Technically Doran would have "broken" the "pact" with Viserion's heir Dany. This is really another one of those can of worms. So why would Tyrion agree ? Tywin at least tried do marry Cersei to Willas Tyrell. Another case where Tyrion thinks he is clever, while he is not ?

[Brad Stark]

6 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Bloodraven has always seemed pro-Targaryen, but perhaps he’s always been more concerned for the realm? He was a greenseer and skinchanger from birth, and the loss of his eye likely opened his third eye, so his motives may have actually been quite ultruistic. 

As much as I like the idea of a misunderstood ultruist, I can't see BR as anything other than a selfish and manipulative bad guy.

But the text leads us to believe he grew past this because of his Greenseer nature.  He was Lord Commander, was found by the Children or another Greenseer, and became the friendly good wizard we know today. 

It leads us to ask if he isn't a friendly or good wizard and maybe his current situation is just an extension of what he did before. Shira, the Blackfyres and even the Targaryens except Dany and maybe a few others are dead. 

[Frey family reunion]

9 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Bloodraven has always seemed pro-Targaryen, but perhaps he’s always been more concerned for the realm? He was a greenseer and skinchanger from birth, and the loss of his eye likely opened his third eye, so his motives may have actually been quite ultruistic. 

Black Crow's position is that Brynden's identity may be more tied to his Blackwood heritage than his Targryen heritage, and I tend to agree with him.  With GRRM's frequent mention of the Blackwood Bracken feud, I sometimes wonder if we're looking at this small localized feud gone global.  With Bittersteel's Golden Company, and Blackfyre descendants (whomever they may be) vs Brynden and his Order of the Green Hand machinations. 

Except that I do wonder about how much Bloodraven is really in charge of things.  The way he's described, with the weirwood roots running through him, gives me the picture of a puppet who's strings are being pulled by the Weirwoods.

So are the Weirwood's simply using Brynden's greenseer abilities for their own ends?

[St Daga]

14 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

19 hours ago, St Daga said:

I also  came across a couples places with cairns that caught my attention, mostly because of the numbers involved. The first area is near Holne Ridge in Devon, England. This area overlooks the River Dart and is called Dartmoor. It consists of eight stone cairns of different shapes and sizes and another monument of stone.

This is fascinating - I love finds like this that make one think you've found a little backdoor into GRRM's brain!   

The "east to west" is intriguing and I wonder if there is an "ice to fire" aspect to it (or another related one) as well.   I am almost finished putting something together on the possible significance of the location of the TOJ, and perhaps its cairns  if that's in fact where they are located, and I am wondering if this reference may work with it.    Off to the maps!

 

ETA:  the 8 cairns + the 1 monument brings to mind the nine weirwoods in a circle beyond the Wall, and the 9 swords from the crown of the old Kings of Winter.   This has to be relevant somehow...

When I came across these two sites, especially the one in Devon, it make me think of GRRM's comments on Hadrian's Wall, and how that was his initial inspiration for his great wall of ice. The site in Israel also teases as there are hints of death rituals involved in that place.

Sometimes I have wondered about the weirwoods that are planted in circle groves, and how that might related to the idea of Stonehenge like structures. Stone circles (with henges or without) of different sizes are found in many places in the British Isles and Northern Europe, and seem to be used for ceremonial purposes. Off the top of my head, I can think of the circle of  thirty-one weirwoods at High Heart, the circle of nine weirwoods that are north of the wall, Sea Dragon point is said to have circles of weirwoods. Nagga's bones isn't a circle, but certainly seems to be planted in a pattern (if this is a weirwood grove and who knows what the Isle of Faces looks like.

I do think that GRRM is inspired by the world around him and reuses it nicely for his own purpose, so a place that has cairns could inspire him just like Hadrian's Wall did. Last night, it occurred to me that GRRM often reuses ideas or concepts in his other writing, and it made me think of Bitterblooms, and Clan Carin who are from Carin Hall or Carinhall. Carinhall could easily be Cairn Hill. Perhaps this place got  it's name from a hill of Cairns? Ned's eight cairns are said to be on a ridge, but a ridge could be called a hill. I think these idea's are all connected to some degree, perhaps altering as he feels them out and they evolve in his mind and storytelling.

Personally, I think a good explanation for the name Winterfell is that it is a hill or fell or fjell where people sought shelter during the winters. Tunnels with geothermic activity to keep them warm and alive, the crypts became part of that, or the tunnels were dug out for shelter and eventually a castle grew over it. The fjell/fell of the Kings of Winter.

[St Daga]

42 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Except that I do wonder about how much Bloodraven is really in charge of things.  The way he's described, with the weirwood roots running through him, gives me the picture of a puppet who's strings are being pulled by the Weirwoods.

So are the Weirwood's simply using Brynden's greenseer abilities for their own ends?

I have wondered about Bloodraven's ability to move. Has he lost it over the years, as the tree grew into him, or had he lost it before he took his place in the roots? Bran's mobility is very limited. He can crawl and pull himself around to some extent, but most of his movement comes from the help around him, mostly of Hodor. If Bran's body could not be moved by his friends, would the roots already be growing into his flesh, locking him forever into the cave? This sounds pretty bizarre, but perhaps Bloodraven found a similar fate. He was unable to get away from the tree's, and the tree's have captured him, and they want to capture Bran, as well. 

If there is a parallel in play, Bran's journey to Bloodraven's cave is about his hopes of being able to walk again, so could something like this apply to Bloodraven? He only sought the cave in hopes of healing himself? I am sure such idea's have been discussed over here before, and if so, if someone could point me to a good place to look, that would be great.

[Melifeather]

5 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

As much as I like the idea of a misunderstood ultruist, I can't see BR as anything other than a selfish and manipulative bad guy.

But the text leads us to believe he grew past this because of his Greenseer nature.  He was Lord Commander, was found by the Children or another Greenseer, and became the friendly good wizard we know today. 

It leads us to ask if he isn't a friendly or good wizard and maybe his current situation is just an extension of what he did before. Shira, the Blackfyres and even the Targaryens except Dany and maybe a few others are dead. 

I don’t view Blackraven as evil. He did whatever necessary to defend the crown. I see his history as Hand as highly effective like Tywin.

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Black Crow's position is that Brynden's identity may be more tied to his Blackwood heritage than his Targryen heritage, and I tend to agree with him.  With GRRM's frequent mention of the Blackwood Bracken feud, I sometimes wonder if we're looking at this small localized feud gone global.  With Bittersteel's Golden Company, and Blackfyre descendants (whomever they may be) vs Brynden and his Order of the Green Hand machinations. 

Except that I do wonder about how much Bloodraven is really in charge of things.  The way he's described, with the weirwood roots running through him, gives me the picture of a puppet who's strings are being pulled by the Weirwoods.

So are the Weirwood's simply using Brynden's greenseer abilities for their own ends?

Up to a point.

As you say I see him as more Blackwood than Targaryen and that is where his eldritch abilities came from and as such the Wood has reclaimed him. I'd shift the emphasis slightly on your last sentence by suggesting that its not Brynden Blackwood's greenseer abilities which are being used, but rather that those powers came from the Wood in the first place.

Whatever the emphasis though I think we're in agreement that he isn't a free agent but rather a mouthpiece for the Wood, and that obviously has implications for his successor.

[Lady Rhodes]

6 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Hmm. Technically Doran would have "broken" the "pact" with Viserion's heir Dany. This is really another one of those can of worms. So why would Tyrion agree ? Tywin at least tried do marry Cersei to Willas Tyrell. Another case where Tyrion thinks he is clever, while he is not ?

More that I think something else is a foot. Howling didit take for Doran to find out about Viserys’ death? Perhaps this is a chronological issue and Quentyn was already en route? Or Tyrion had another game planned. 

[Brad Stark]

18 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I don’t view Blackraven as evil. He did whatever necessary to defend the crown. I see his history as Hand as highly effective like Tywin.

Well, this gets back to what exactly evil is, but my point is the same regardless.  Is his current role an extension of his former role?  Is he effectively manipulating and doing whatever it takes for a political position?  Obviously he isn't still defending the crown. 

[Brad Stark]

20 hours ago, St Daga said:

I have wondered about Bloodraven's ability to move. Has he lost it over the years, as the tree grew into him, or had he lost it before he took his place in the roots? Bran's mobility is very limited. He can crawl and pull himself around to some extent, but most of his movement comes from the help around him, mostly of Hodor. If Bran's body could not be moved by his friends, would the roots already be growing into his flesh, locking him forever into the cave? This sounds pretty bizarre, but perhaps Bloodraven found a similar fate. He was unable to get away from the tree's, and the tree's have captured him, and they want to capture Bran, as well. 

If there is a parallel in play, Bran's journey to Bloodraven's cave is about his hopes of being able to walk again, so could something like this apply to Bloodraven? He only sought the cave in hopes of healing himself? I am sure such idea's have been discussed over here before, and if so, if someone could point me to a good place to look, that would be great.

BR was Lord Commander when he disappeared on a ranging. I don't think we've seen evidence of a feeble man as Lord Commander, but if that were the case, he wouldn't be ranging.

I don't think he can walk, but as my mom said, if you sit in front of the TV too long you'll grow roots. 

If there is a parallel, Benjen disappeared the same way. 

[Frey family reunion]

40 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

I don't think he can walk, but as my mom said, if you sit in front of the TV too long you'll grow roots.

Well put.  I think that’s exactly what happened, he got lost in the weirnet, or decided he’d sooner experience the world through the trees.  

It’s a bit of a parallel to Odin’s sacrifices to gain knowledge

[Frey family reunion]

On 8/8/2018 at 1:45 PM, St Daga said:

ETA I have no idea if any of the above information could apply to GRRM's thought process, but the numbers and structures are rather interesting.

I definitely think you’re on to something here.  The business with the eight cairns is pretty cool.

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

BR was Lord Commander when he disappeared on a ranging. I don't think we've seen evidence of a feeble man as Lord Commander, but if that were the case, he wouldn't be ranging.

I don't think he can walk, but as my mom said, if you sit in front of the TV too long you'll grow roots. 

If there is a parallel, Benjen disappeared the same way. 

I was thinking about an injury on his ranging, but that is highly unlikely! It just seems like he has drawn Bran to him, and so I wondered if he was drawn to the same place by someone/something else, and for a similar reason. Bloodraven would have been much older than Bran, and have different goals and thoughts than an eight year old boy. I was mostly trying to brainstorm up connections or parallel's. 

As to growing roots, it's very possible that Bloodraven did just become lost in the soap opera he was watching through the weirnet, and then became a part of it. Like my mom and Days of our Lives! Something about that root growing through his eye creeps me out, though! It does mirror Odin's sacrifice for wisdom, his own eye for a drink of the water from the well of knowledge.

I wonder how often it is that a Lord Commander goes north of the wall on a ranging? We have Bloodraven and Mormont, most recently. Mormont's journey did not end well for him, but he did escape the Fist, just not his own men. Could Bloodraven's men have turned on him and he sought the cave for safety? Again, just thinking about possible parallel's.

Benjen did disappear, like Bloodraven, but he is First Ranger and not Lord Commander. It just seems like their is a difference in jobs and level of people a person would be traveling with. But Benjen did go out with six riders, making his a party of seven, and we might find out this was the case with Bloodraven. It would mirror Ned and his six wraiths, and Rhaegar and his six companions. I would not be at all surprised to see the same concept with Brynden Rivers.

[St Daga]

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

On 8/8/2018 at 12:45 PM, St Daga said:

ETA I have no idea if any of the above information could apply to GRRM's thought process, but the numbers and structures are rather interesting.

I definitely think you’re on to something here.  The business with the eight cairns is pretty cool.

I don't know if it means anything, but perhaps could have served as a bit of inspiration for the author. However, it has taken me on a journey of rock formations and burial chambers, cairns and barrows all over the the British Isles and even in a few other places. Lot's of cairns in India (I had no idea) and the America's; all over the world really. Cairns as burials, cairns as religious/spiritual markers, cairns for navigation (it took me to the top of Ben Nevis this morning), cairns for agricultural purposes, cairns that are open to speculation as to what their purpose might have been. 

I even came across on interesting short story called "The Cairn on the Headland" by Robert E Howard. It was written in the 30's and has a strong Christianity vs Pagan religious theme to it, and Odin plays a role. It has some time travel via dream implication, with the protagonist having been part of a great battle between vikings and Christians in Ireland, I think, and Odin took the form of a human to help his warriors fight, but he was wounded in battle. Unable to be killed, a man buried him under a cairn formation and for hundreds of years no one disturbed the cairn because of dire warnings. Odin hates man-kind in this story, it seems, because Norse paganism has died. The goal is to keep him covered/hidden. The protagonist whose name is James apparently remembers through dreams that he fought in this battle in 1014 as a man called Red Cumal who came across Odin on the battle field as he was looting corpses after the battle and it is Red Cumal who buried the body. In the current time frame, no one knows what the cairn is for (to bury dead vikings or to serve as a monument to the Irish Christians who one the battle) but in a dream, James will remember that it is to keep Odin and his hate contained.

In a dream, James understands/remembers that Odin must remain covered, and no holly should touch his remains, and realizes another character has gone  to uncover Odin, seeking treasure under the cairn. James get's to the sight just as the other man uncovers Odin, who remains just as he did in 1014, alive, wounded and hateful. A sprig holly touches Odin and he burst up from the rocks and his human form changes to "the fiendish spirit of ice and frost and darkness that the sons of the North deified as Odin, stood nakedly and terribly, in the stars" and his "form was dark as shadow and gleaming as ice". The only thing that saves James is a gold crucifix that he was given by a women he finds out died over three hundred years before, although she came to him just recently to gift him with the cross. He holds the crucifix toward Odin, who is described at one point with tentacle like arms, talons, a great terrible eye and vulture-like wings. When Odin see's the crucifix, he leaps into the stars, surrounded by "flaming fires and light of the haunted sky", Odin disappears into sky and the story concludes without revealing James' fate.

The wiki summary is here and the entire text can be found here, if anyone is interested. I came across the summary, and then have skimmed the text. Later today I will try to read the entire text in great detail. It has some interesting elements about not disturbing cairns (or barrows or graves) and the dangers if such a thing occurs. It has a fantasy/horror element to it, as well as some history, religion and world mythology. Since it's a genre that GRRM might have read, and this author is a contemporary of Lovecraft, I wonder if GRRM could be aware of this story?

What happens if you disturb the wrong grave site? What might rise from it and how might it affect the people that were there, and life after the monster is released? Some elements here remind me of the weirnet, visitation from the dead, a dark god of ice and darkness and shadow, a tentacled beast which could be a kraken or leviathan, and a sprig of holly (Holly King/Winter King hints, perhaps). And then the Odin/Bloodraven similarities are involved as well.  In this case, the cairn was erected to hide something terrible, not as a memorial or a true burial or even a navigational marker.

Anyway, my search of cairns had led me to some interesting finds!