Heresy 211 Eight Cairns

[St Daga]

39 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

If we want to look at a possible time/place when a Valyrian bloodline was introduced into House Flint, I don't think we have to look back any further than Alysanne's trip up north, where she left her husband behind.  This would have been the time where she spent at Queenscrown which is located in the middle of House Flint (the First flints) lands.  I did a theory a while back about this, but long theory short, I think Alysanne may have given birth to an illegitimate child either at Queenscrown or at Queen's Gate.  My guess is, this child (or children if twins) would have married into House Flint, and then their bloodline is introduced into the Starks via Arya Flint, Lyanna's grandmother.

Where Jaehaerys and Alysanne in the north twice? For some reason I was thinking that. They ruled for a long time. Perhaps I am thinking of the two separations during their marriage. If Alysanne did fly up to Queen's Crown to give birth, she would have to have been gone for months, long enough to disguise a pregnancy and birth. Jaehaerys doesn't strike me as stupid. Unless she was in the north one time without Jaehaerys at all.

[St Daga]

32 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

And finally the one really intriguing possibility is that Jon really isn't the skinchanger, Ghost is.

Creepy! Seems like something that GRRM would do. Make us think it's Jon with the power, but it's really Ghost/Bloodraven. Could this apply to all the direwolves?

[SirArthur]

@yellow and green:

-this can happen almost anywhere, as far south as Starfall, inlcuding septs

-for the filter to work, the viewer usually has to stand behind the filter. So if Ned sees it, he has to stand outside the winter garden and yet hear Lyanna.

@Lyanna's fate: remember that the NW has traitors. This includes Mance but can also include Craster and in an extreme case Benjen. 

[SirArthur]

8 minutes ago, St Daga said:

 Creepy! Seems like something that GRRM would do. Make us think it's Jon with the power, but it's really Ghost/Bloodraven. Could this apply to all the direwolves?

I personally think that Bran's 3-eyed crow is Summer. Why ? Because he is an old friend. And Bran's list of friends is very short.

[SirArthur]

39 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

As for the Starks, my guess has always been that the skinchanging gene is coming from both their paternal and maternal lines.  I think Cat's maternal lineage may date back to the Lothstons, and if Brynden Tully was named after Brynden Rivers that may be a hint that they have a Blackwood ancestry, while Ned could have inherited his ability from the Flints if they were indeed skinchangers,  the Starks also have a Blackwood maternal ancestor as well which could have contributed. 

I always had the opinion that all the direwolf statues in the crypt hint at a long skinchanging history. 

[St Daga]

21 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Thank you for the search engine! It's helpful. I read a few of them that I hadn't seen when I used google and "word" searches. That being said - I do have a pretty good memory, but I cannot remember enough of the exact wording to find it, but it wasn't that he hadn't decided on the mother - he has - but that he left it open so that more than one father would work, and that Parris had made suggestions. Maybe it's the second thing you wrote about Parris quizzing him? Where's that one?

I wonder if the SSM's have been purified again recently. Last week I was looking for something I know I had read before, and searched and searched and could not find it. My suspicious nature kicked in and I decided they were purging information again, stuff that might reveal more than we are supposed to know.

16 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

22 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Blue roses under a green and yellow filter would appear black! So, could it be that Lyanna's hand holding blue roses was in a place that had a green and yellow light filter? Perhaps the glass garden's of Winterfell?

 

22 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Yellow glass is noted in Chataya's brothel, aboard the Shy Maid, and in Tytos Blackwood's solar.

I'm thinking a brothel, because I think when Ned came out of Chataya's and was attacked by Jaime it's an inverted parallel to when he found Lyanna - meaning, attack first outside the brothel, then found her inside.

Could be. It seems like magenta (not true red), yellow and blue would give us black, using the CMYK color model. But using the RGB color model, then red, blue and yellow give us white, which is weird, but white is the inversion of black, I guess.

 

[Frey family reunion]

3 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Where Jaehaerys and Alysanne in the north twice? For some reason I was thinking that. They ruled for a long time. Perhaps I am thinking of the two separations during their marriage. If Alysanne did fly up to Queen's Crown to give birth, she would have to have been gone for months, long enough to disguise a pregnancy and birth. Jaehaerys doesn't strike me as stupid. Unless she was in the north one time without Jaehaerys at all.

There were two noted separations during their marriage, according to the World Book.  I assume one of them was when Allysanne left Jahearys at Winterfell and traveled with her escort to the Wall.  So when she stayed at Queen's Crown, she did so by herself, and when she got to the Wall it was also without Jahaerys.  If this is one of the estrangements, than it lasted from one to two years:

Quote

Two estrangements are records, but they did not last more than a year or two before the pair resumed their customary friendship.

 

The golden painted crenellations of Queen's Crown forms a mural crown.  This was the symbol of the Roman Goddess of fertility Cybele.  Read up on her wiki for some interesting ino.  The idea of a tower in an island in the middle of a small lake may also be a historic reference to Mary Queen of Scots, when she spent some time at Loch Leven castle, where legend has it that she miscarried illegitimate twins.

[Frey family reunion]

10 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

for the filter to work, the viewer usually has to stand behind the filter. So if Ned sees it, he has to stand outside the winter garden and yet hear Lyanna.

This was kind of my thought as well.  Plus if the roses are being described as black, they are also being described as dead.  And dead roses are usually black.  Plus we know that when Lyanna died Ned was holding her hand.

[St Daga]

7 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

@yellow and green:

-this can happen almost anywhere, as far south as Starfall, inlcuding septs

Yes, but the text never gives us that information specifically. Only at Winterfell. That is why it stands out to me, because GRRM draws attention to it.

8 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

-for the filter to work, the viewer usually has to stand behind the filter. So if Ned sees it, he has to stand outside the winter garden and yet hear Lyanna.

But can't glass be used to filter as well as to block, depending on the opacity of the glass. As to the filter, I think if you are between the light source and the filter, you would see what the light allows. If your vision is from behind the filter, you might not even be able to see through it well at all, depending on opacity. I guess rose colored glasses work the way you describe, but if you shine light through those glasses, then the color affects everything the light shines on. I wish I had a light and some color filters.  That would be way more fun than paying bills, which is what I should be doing.

[Melifeather]

44 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

@yellow and green:

-this can happen almost anywhere, as far south as Starfall, inlcuding septs

-for the filter to work, the viewer usually has to stand behind the filter. So if Ned sees it, he has to stand outside the winter garden and yet hear Lyanna.

@Lyanna's fate: remember that the NW has traitors. This includes Mance but can also include Craster and in an extreme case Benjen. 

I don't think that is necessarily true. The reason why people throw a red scarf over the top of a lamp shade is to create a warm soft reddish glow that is supposed to give a sexy vibe to the boudoir. 

32 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

This was kind of my thought as well.  Plus if the roses are being described as black, they are also being described as dead.  And dead roses are usually black.  Plus we know that when Lyanna died Ned was holding her hand.

I do think GRRM is trying to give us a clue here considering Jon's thoughts about being able to purchase clear glass for greenhouses at the Wall. Of all the characters to be thinking about greenhouses, it does seem pretty deliberate especially since he wants the greenhouses to be just like Wintrfell's. If he wanted the glass to be like Winterfell's he'd be thinking of yellow and green glass, but he's not. He wants clear.

28 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Yes, but the text never gives us that information specifically. Only at Winterfell. That is why it stands out to me, because GRRM draws attention to it.

But can't glass be used to filter as well as to block, depending on the opacity of the glass. As to the filter, I think if you are between the light source and the filter, you would see what the light allows. If your vision is from behind the filter, you might not even be able to see through it well at all, depending on opacity. I guess rose colored glasses work the way you describe, but if you shine light through those glasses, then the color affects everything the light shines on. I wish I had a light and some color filters.  That would be way more fun than paying bills, which is what I should be doing.

I think if you were in a room with yellow and glass paned windows and the sun was streaming through those colors it would affect how you see colors of items inside the room. Now I wish I could do a test. Hey! I do have a green glass bottle...now all I need to find is something red...

[St Daga]

6 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

21 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Where Jaehaerys and Alysanne in the north twice? For some reason I was thinking that. They ruled for a long time. Perhaps I am thinking of the two separations during their marriage. If Alysanne did fly up to Queen's Crown to give birth, she would have to have been gone for months, long enough to disguise a pregnancy and birth. Jaehaerys doesn't strike me as stupid. Unless she was in the north one time without Jaehaerys at all.

There were two noted separations during their marriage, according to the World Book.  I assume one of them was when Allysanne left Jahearys at Winterfell and traveled with her escort to the Wall.  So when she stayed at Queen's Crown, she did so by herself, and when she got to the Wall it was also without Jahaerys.  If this is one of the estrangements, than it lasted from one to two years:

Didn't Alysanne only spend one night at Queen's crown? I have a hard time imagining that Alysanne was separated from Jaehaerys for one to two years while she was at the wall and he was hanging out at Winterfell. I guess I was under the impression that Alysanne took two days to fly to the wall from Winterfell, and she spend the one night at Queen's Crown, which only got the name after the locals painted the merlons.

Quote

 

Across the lake, the tower was black again, a dim shape dimly seen. "A queen lived there?" asked Ygritte.

 

"A queen stayed there for a night." Old Nan had told him the story, but Maester Luwin had confirmed most of it. "Alysanne, the wife of King Jaehaerys the Conciliator. He's called the Old King because he reigned so long, but he was young when he first came to the Iron Throne. In those days, it was his wont to travel all over the realm. When he came to Winterfell, he brought his queen, six dragons, and half his court. The king had matters to discuss with his Warden of the North, and Alysanne grew bored, so she mounted her dragon Silverwing and flew north to see the Wall. This village was one of the places where she stopped. Afterward the smallfolk painted the top of their holdfast to look like the golden crown she'd worn when she spent the night among them." ASOS-Jon V

 

 

Quote

"No. Old Nan told me. The holdfast has a golden crown, see?" He pointed across the lake. You could see patches of flaking gold paint up around the crenellations. "Queen Alysanne slept there, so they painted the merlons gold in her honor." ASOS-Bran III

Looking these passages over, it still appears that Alysanne only spent one night there, but that it was only "one of the places" that she stopped. So, it is interesting that only this place was honored with the gold paint on the merlons. And we don't know how long her journey took. Still, hard to think it was a year or two, while Jaehaerys hashed stuff out with his Warden of the North. Possible, I guess. Perhaps no other place in the north was happy to see Alysanne, just this place, and it was the peasants who honored her with a painted crown, not whom ever held the keep?

 

I will say I do think Silverwing could be important to our story. It is a missing dragon, and something about the color of it, and what size it could be now tickles my mind. It was said to have been paired to Vermithor. Sam wonders if Silverwing could have left an egg at the wall. An egg could certainly be a Targaryen child, and Silverwing could be a nod to it's rider, Alysanne. That bit about Sam is ironic to me, because I think he is the egg at the wall, Aegon son of Rhaegar! 

 

23 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

35 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

for the filter to work, the viewer usually has to stand behind the filter. So if Ned sees it, he has to stand outside the winter garden and yet hear Lyanna.

This was kind of my thought as well.  Plus if the roses are being described as black, they are also being described as dead.  And dead roses are usually black.  Plus we know that when Lyanna died Ned was holding her hand.

In demonstration of a light box, light is shined through the filter, but the visual affect is noted, whether you are behind the filter or beside it. The effect is noted in the direction that light is directed.  At least that is how I view "behind the filter". The light and the viewer have to behind the filter. Otherwise, a red lantern at a brothel, lit from inside, would only be noted if the person was inside the light, too?

And the roses could certainly be described as dead, but I resist this interpretation as it is used as proof of RLJ: The Love Story! I much prefer her hands to be dead and black, honestly. But why are we specifically given this green and yellow glass information for the glass gardens?

 

[Melifeather]

7 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I think if you were in a room with yellow and glass paned windows and the sun was streaming through those colors it would affect how you see colors of items inside the room. Now I wish I could do a test. Hey! I do have a green glass bottle...now all I need to find is something red...

Test complete. I laid a red bandana on my floor where there was a beam of light coming in from the window, then held the green bottle up to the window so that it cast a shadow on the scarf. It most definitely was shades of yellowy-grey and black where the light was filtered through the bottle.

[JNR]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

it wasn't that he hadn't decided on the mother - he has - but that he left it open so that more than one father would work, and that Parris had made suggestions. Maybe it's the second thing you wrote about Parris quizzing him? Where's that one?

Right here.

Quote

According to Parris, she did come up with a few alternative suggestions for Jon's parentage that George wouldn't comment on, but apparently one suggestion did provoke one of George's 'evil smiles' (apparently deployed whenever he has come up with an extremely cunning plot twist). However, absolutely no amount of persuasion or bribery would get her to reveal what that theory was.

The source is site mod Werthead.

So this story, as I interpret it, means

1) GRRM always knew who Jon's parents were

2) Parris had not been told by GRRM who they were

3) She was curious and cited pairs of names, to guess

4) One of those pairs elicited a giveaway reaction from GRRM

I think we can also infer with confidence that if GRRM had not, after years, told his long-time live-in girlfriend (currently his wife) who Jon's parents were... then the odds are not good he has  told other people (Groell, D&D, various actors from GOT, et al).

I think GRRM means this revelation to be a dropped bomb that yields a gigantic mushroom cloud, and I think he's going to get it.  The show's version of Jon's parents has only increased the explosive yield GRRM will obtain.

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

-for the filter to work, the viewer usually has to stand behind the filter. So if Ned sees it, he has to stand outside the winter garden and yet hear Lyanna.

But can't glass be used to filter as well as to block, depending on the opacity of the glass. As to the filter, I think if you are between the light source and the filter, you would see what the light allows. If your vision is from behind the filter, you might not even be able to see through it well at all, depending on opacity. I guess rose colored glasses work the way you describe, but if you shine light through those glasses, then the color affects everything the light shines on. I wish I had a light and some color filters.  That would be way more fun than paying bills, which is what I should be doing.

One thing that would be odd about my idea is that to create the effect on a blue rose, you would need a layer of green and yellow to help with the effect on a blue rose. So the panels could not be side by side, then would have to be layered over each other, which would be odd. Still, perhaps there is more than one layer of glass to hold the cold out and the heat in, like a double paned window, which increases the insulation value.

Still, perhaps Ned would need to view this outside. What if he is remembering images fed to him from far away, that related to Lyanna's hand. Perhaps Ned was there, but his memory is only what he sees, because his memories have been tampered with and he only remembers what he has been feed though the dream net/weirnet? Sorry, I am sounding more crazy all the time.

Another thing that would limit this theory is just how deep a blue the roses are. I think we are told that winter roses are pale, so that would effect my whole bit of brainstorming, too. It's probably nothing, but the attention to the color of the panels of glass at Winterfell just seem like a clue. Perhaps GRRM doesn't understand color theory any better than I do! 

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Test complete. I laid a red bandana on my floor where there was a beam of light coming in from the window, then held the green bottle up to the window so that it cast a shadow on the scarf. It most definitely was shades of yellowy-grey and black where the light was filtered through the bottle.

I used to live in a street that used yellow sodium-vapor lamps. A lot of cars looked completely black even if there were red. Like in this wikipedia picture about the lamps with a red and a black car: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/80/Red_and_black_cars_under_low_pressure_sodium_lamps.jpg/1280px-Red_and_black_cars_under_low_pressure_sodium_lamps.jpg

 

[PrettyPig]

This may be a really dumb question, but since we are talking about a period of time that doesn’t have benefit of electric lamps producing various color spectrums....

could it be possible that Ned’s interaction with Lyanna in her last moments took place in ... moonlight?

[Tucu]

4 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

This may be a really dumb question, but since we are talking about a period of time that doesn’t have benefit of electric lamps producing various color spectrums....

could it be possible that Ned’s interaction with Lyanna in her last moments took place in ... moonlight? 

It could, but as moonlight is white/bluish it would not change the colour of blue (or black roses).

Black roses would appear black under any lighting. Blue roses would appear black under red, green, or yellow lights; they would appear blue under all other lights. This site has a nice table on this:

The Physics of Colour - Colour Subtraction

[PrettyPig]

3 minutes ago, Tucu said:

It could, but as moonlight is white/bluish it would not change the colour of blue (or black roses).

Black roses would appear black under any lighting. Blue roses would appear black under red, green, or yellow lights; they would appear blue under all other lights. This site has a nice table on this:

The Physics of Colour - Colour Subtraction

Yes, but we don’t know for sure which is black - the roses or the hands.   

If the latter...well, in moonlight the roses could still be blue, and the hands could  be black... if they were covered in blood.

a room that smelled of blood and roses

[Melifeather]

50 minutes ago, JNR said:

Right here.

The source is site mod Werthead.

So this story, as I interpret it, means

1) GRRM always knew who Jon's parents were

2) Parris had not been told by GRRM who they were

3) She was curious and cited pairs of names, to guess

4) One of those pairs elicited a giveaway reaction from GRRM

I think we can also infer with confidence that if GRRM had not, after years, told his long-time live-in girlfriend (currently his wife) who Jon's parents were... then the odds are not good he has  told other people (Groell, D&D, various actors from GOT, et al).

I think GRRM means this revelation to be a dropped bomb that yields a gigantic mushroom cloud, and I think he's going to get it.  The show's version of Jon's parents has only increased the explosive yield GRRM will obtain.

Quote

According to Parris, she did come up with a few alternative suggestions for Jon's parentage that George wouldn't comment on, but apparently one suggestion did provoke one of George's 'evil smiles' (apparently deployed whenever he has come up with an extremely cunning plot twist). However, absolutely no amount of persuasion or bribery would get her to reveal what that theory was.

The fact that Parris was offering alternatives seems to imply that they did discussed candidates that he wanted the reader to believe was the father.

49 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I used to live in a street that used yellow sodium-vapor lamps. A lot of cars looked completely black even if there were red. Like in this wikipedia picture about the lamps with a red and a black car: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/80/Red_and_black_cars_under_low_pressure_sodium_lamps.jpg/1280px-Red_and_black_cars_under_low_pressure_sodium_lamps.jpg

 

Very cool!

11 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

This may be a really dumb question, but since we are talking about a period of time that doesn’t have benefit of electric lamps producing various color spectrums....

could it be possible that Ned’s interaction with Lyanna in her last moments took place in ... moonlight?

All shadows are black at night!

[Tucu]

2 hours ago, St Daga said:

If the old gods saved Arya from this fate, could they perhaps have saved Lyanna, too? Echoes or inversions! I feel like I can never decide.

They probably tried, but Lyanna ended dead around 1 year after she was "abducted"; Arya is going into her 3rd year. Arya is a mirror of Lyanna; some aspects are the same, some are inverted. I think GRRM made Arya left-handed to highlight this.