Heresy 211 Eight Cairns

[St Daga]

7 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Winter is the best possible time to root out outlaws, bushwhacker and jayhawkers. With the leaves gone their cover is literally blown and its also on the one hand more difficult for them to find food and on the other hand a whole lot easier to track them.

You are right when you say that their hiding places would be more easily exposed if they were hiding in the forest, and food would probably be scarce. But those don't really seem like the tactic's that Jaime tells us that SAD used to subdue the KWB. 

Perception might also be a problem for me, since where I am from, winter is more like in the north, as opposed to winter near Kings Landing. Most wars in history were not fought in the winter because food was scarce for the troops and the elements could decimate an army. Napoleon found that out when he marched into Russia.

[St Daga]

6 hours ago, SirArthur said:

14 hours ago, St Daga said:

Since female Stark's don't have statues in the crypts, or so we are told by Bran,

Yes. In the same sentence ..." And there's my grandfather, Lord Rickard, who was beheaded by Mad King Aerys. His daughter Lyanna and his son Brandon are in the tombs beside him. Not me, another Brandon, my father's brother. They're not supposed to have statues, that's only for the lords and the kings, but my father loved them so much he had them done."

The they references Brandon AND Lyanna. And since Bran switches between tombs and statues, I assume there is a tomb for every family member and an extra statue for "the lords and the kings". 

Agreed. Brandon is not meant to have a statue either, if Bran is correct in reporting the Stark traditions in the crypts. so, why did Ned chose to do this? It seems that all of the Stark blood have a place to be buried in the crypts, a tomb. 

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Ned stopped at last and lifted the oil lantern. The crypt continued on into darkness ahead of them, but beyond this point the tombs were empty and unsealed; black holes waiting for their dead, waiting for him and his children. Ned did not like to think on that. "Here," he told his king. AGOT-Eddard I

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Their footsteps echoed through the cavernous crypts. The shadows behind them swallowed his father as the shadows ahead retreated to unveil other statues; no mere lords, these, but the old Kings in the North. On their brows they wore stone crowns. Torrhen Stark, the King Who Knelt. Edwyn the Spring King. Theon Stark, the Hungry Wolf. Brandon the Burner and Brandon the Shipwright. Jorah and Jonos, Brandon the Bad, Walton the Moon King, Edderion the Bridegroom, Eyron, Benjen the Sweet and Benjen the Bitter, King Edrick Snowbeard. Their faces were stern and strong, and some of them had done terrible things, but they were Starks every one, and Bran knew all their tales. He had never feared the crypts; they were part of his home and who he was, and he had always known that one day he would lie here too. ACOK-Bran VII

An interesting thing I have wondered since reading Ned's comment on black holes waiting for him and his children, is the lack of mention for Catelyn to be buried. Can she not rest in the crypts because she does not carry Stark blood? Or did she just not wish to be buried there, and had made that plain at some point in her marriage. I suppose we might never get an answer for this, but it stands out to me that as a family unit, Catelyn is very excluded in this place of the Stark dead.

 

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Yes, I agree, and while Ned promised Lyanna that he would bury her in Winterfell next to her brother (hint hint)  and father, the addition of a statute for both Lyanna and Brandon seems an unusual honor and outside his stated promise.

If Ned is telling the truth, then Lyanna did wish to be buried beside both Brandon and Rickard. The two men who might have died because her wolf blooded act, perhaps. But I don't think that Ned put Lyanna and Brandon next to each other.

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Only a little farther on, three tombs were closely grouped together. That was where they halted. "Lord Rickard," Lady Dustin observed, studying the central figure. The statue loomed above them—long-faced, bearded, solemn. He had the same stone eyes as the rest, but his looked sad. "He lacks a sword as well." ADWD-The Turncloak

To me, this reads as if Rickard lies in the middle, with Brandon on one side and Lyanna on his other side. 

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They were almost at the end now, and Bran felt a sadness creeping over him. "And there's my grandfather, Lord Rickard, who was beheaded by Mad King Aerys. His daughter Lyanna and his son Brandon are in the tombs beside him. Not me, another Brandon, my father's brother. They're not supposed to have statues, that's only for the lords and the kings, but my father loved them so much he had them done." AGOT-Bran VIII

This is a little more vague, but since the only way that both Brandon and Lyanna are beside their father is if he is in the middle, lying between them.

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When the shadows moved, it looked for an instant as if the dead were rising as well. Lyanna and Brandon, Lord Rickard Stark their father, Lord Edwyle his father, Lord Willam and his brother Artos the Implacable, Lord Donnor and Lord Beron and Lord Rodwell, one-eyed Lord Jonnel, Lord Barth and Lord Brandon and Lord Cregan who had fought the Dragonknight. On their stone chairs they sat with stone wolves at their feet. This was where they came when the warmth had seeped out of their bodies; this was the dark hall of the dead, where the living feared to tread.

 

And in the mouth of the empty tomb that waited for Lord Eddard Stark, beneath his stately granite likeness, the six fugitives huddled round their little cache of bread and water and dried meat. "Little enough left," Osha muttered as she blinked down on their stores. "I'd need to go up soon to steal food in any case, or we'd be down to eating Hodor." ACOK-Bran VII

 

So, in this case, and just to argue with my own theory in the sake of fairness,  it seems like Lyanna and Brandon might be buried next to one another, then Rickard. So, in order of their deaths, perhaps, as Rickards father comes after Rickard, etc. If that is the case, then the place for Ned's bones would be beside Lyanna, who would then lied between her brothers. If there was some odd lovers triangle going on, that would make some sense. GRRM seems to love complicated relationships that involve triangles. 

Of course, Ned's bones may never make to the crypts, and Lyanna's might not be their either. But their statues remain.

[Melifeather]

36 minutes ago, St Daga said:

In reality, hinds do not have horns, but in some mythology, hinds do have antlers. The golden hind, or  Ceryneian Hind, was Hurcules third labor. This hind was extremely large, had golden antlers and bronze hooves, and was said to be so fast she could out run an arrow. She was sacred to Artemis, goddess of the hunt, animals and maidens. In some version of the legend, Hercules chased it for a year. In some versions he trapped her, or shot her with an arrow, or never caught her, but Artemis said his quest was completed anyway. An elusive white hind might be something that GRRM would include in his work, but didn't. He used the hart.

Ships are genderless, yet are often referred to as "she". Elenei was never a real human in Planetos history. She represents magic. The white hart is symbolic of ice magic. The reason why a red deer can be born white is due to a rare genetic mutation. Lyanna is associated with ice. She's the moon maid or ice maid. The Stark family genetics includes the ability to skinchange. It's a magical gene inserted into their lineage. Lyanna holds this magic gene in her DNA. Her children can inherit the gene whether they are male or female. 

I found this with a web search:

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For the ancient Celts, the white hart was a harbinger of doom, a living symbol that some taboo has been transgressed or a moral law broken. 

To come across a white hart was to realise that some terrible evil or judgment was imminent. 

The white hart's reputation improved in Arthurian legends, where its appearance was a sign to Arthur and his knights that it was time to embark on a quest - it was considered the one animal that could never be caught so it came to symbolise humanity's never-ending pursuit of knowledge and the unattainable.

 

 

[St Daga]

3 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

16 hours ago, St Daga said:

A little bit of research in the text reveals a war galley by the name of the White Hart.

By now I should know better than to pick up a “St Daga Names of Ships”  string and tug on it to see where it leads...the last time I did this I birthed a huge Fisherman’s Daughter a month later.  Lol

But, as I am clearly a glutton for punishment, here I go again...and holy wow.   Already I am thinking that while the Loyal Man does represent Ned, the White Hart isn’t Robert or Brandon or any other Stark.    And the Swordfish may be quite important after all. 

Haha! Yes, I went off on a tangent in those Davos Dance chapters! I do love those ship names. That might be one of the reasons that I enjoy the Iron Born chapters. All those ships, all those colorful names.

Sometimes the names pop out at me, sometimes they don't. @Feather Crystal also pointed out Swordfish. I really need to read over the passage and think about it. I plan to look over the Davos chapter of the Battle of the Blackwater with much more detail. Perhaps there is something important in the POV of Davos, since he is both a smuggler and a sailor that is worthy of paying attention to.

On another board, a while ago, I went off on a tangent about the Storm Dancer, the ship Cat and Rodrik Cassel take from White Harbor to Kings Landing, and I realized that ship was also docked in White Harbor during those Davos chapters. And I missed that because I was so deep into the Merry Midwife and the Sloe-Eyed Maid. There is so much detail in the books, sometimes I just can't soak it all up at one time. I need like 10 times...

 

2 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

Switching gears for a moment, because otherwise I will forget.   Returning to my own post, I had a thought in the shower (where I have all my best thoughts) about Lyanna participating in a kidnapping in a parallel to Cat/Tyrion that 1) vexes the royal family, and 2) sets of a chain of events that led to war and ruin.     Whatever she did would have to be really impulsive, somewhat greedy/selfish, and mostly reckless, in keeping with the idea of the wolf blood leading to her death.

So above I mused on Lyanna taking baby Aegon to prevent dragon hatching.

Aegon.

Egg.

The Last Dragon’s Egg.

 A dragon egg.

Stolen from a dragon’s hoard.

I like this. It's not a crown from a hoard, but it's something a dragon might keep in his hoard. So, if Lyanna stole Rhaegar's dragon egg, what did she do with it. Is this what Rhaegar and his boys head out in search of? Did Rhaegar get in back? And did  it some how ended up with Dany in the Dothraki sea? Is this another link between Lyanna and Dany? After all in Drogo's pyre, he rides away on a grey and blue stallion (smoke and blue flame), colors I associate with the Starks. Or is it stashed in the crypts of Winterfell? Is that what Mance is looking for? Did Ned know? Is this why he thinks the KoW are looking at him with disapproval? And does it have anything to do with what Summer see's above Winterfell as it burns, something that looks suspiciously like a dragon?

Hmm! Sent me right into a little rabbit hole...

 

[JNR]

15 hours ago, St Daga said:

It still doesn't address "only two lived to ride away", but that still could be argued that it is two of seven from the north, or two of the ten that faced off.

Well, for me, that is the most obvious, primary interpretation.  In context:

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They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away

Ned means two of the ten combatants lived to ride away. 

Also, of course, it's been a standard part of R+L=J for years that at least one other person rode away from the TOJ besides Ned and Howland.  Because Ned remembers:

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They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief.

"They" had found him.  Not just Howland.

So either there were other people at the TOJ, whose identities are yet to be disclosed, or this scene Ned remembers did not happen at the TOJ at all, and she died somewhere else.

[Melifeather]

2 minutes ago, St Daga said:

That might be one of the reasons that I enjoy the Iron Born chapters. All those ships, all those colorful names.

I love the Ironborn chapters too, but I used to hate them until I started working on the inversion theory. 

3 minutes ago, St Daga said:

the Storm Dancer

Robert Baratheon was setup in the story as the Storm Lord of Storm's End for a reason. There's great symbolism with the Storm Lord and the magic maiden (Elenei). His sighting of the white hart that harbingers his fatal wound by the boar is natures way of punishing him for what he did. Having the Targaryens in place as this evil reign that sacrificed children by burning them to hatch dragon eggs should have been justification enough to remove them from the throne, but if my suspicions that Robert conspired with Jon Arryn and Tywin Lannister to sacrifice the magic ice maiden Lyanna Stark in order to achieve it, then two wrongs don't make a right.

The vision that Bran saw when his mother was sailing on the Storm Dancer is the story in a nutshell. The looming giant armor with the helm full of black blood does have multiple meanings. While it does symbolize the order of knighthood, it also symbolizes the replicated armor that Jaime wore when he pretended to be Rhaegar when Lyanna was abducted. The implication is that Robert knew about the plot, but the Lannisters promised that they'd help him become king. 

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He looked east, and saw a galley racing across the waters of the Bite. He saw his mother sitting alone in a cabin, looking at a bloodstained knife on a table in front of her, as the rowers pulled at their oars and Ser Rodrik leaned across a rail, shaking and heaving.

A storm was gathering ahead of them, a vast dark roaring lashed by lightning, but somehow they could not see it.

He looked south, and saw the great blue-green rush of the Trident. He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief. He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.

 

The storm that was gathering ahead of them was Robert, the king from Storms End. The terrible face of a hound is Gregor Clegane, the armor like the sun, golden and beautiful is Jaime and Cersei, and the giant is Robert, the duplicate set of armor used to deceive, and the order of knighthood.

[JNR]

9 hours ago, alienarea said:

A straight forward explanation why  Ned brought back Lyanna's bones but not the bones of his men could be that they didn't die in the same place.

- Lyanna dies around the sack in KL

- Ned's men die in Dorne

The problem with this is that we know Ned and Robert weren't aware Lyanna was dead at the time Ned left King's Landing after the Sack:

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Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south. It had taken another death to reconcile them; Lyanna's death, and the grief they had shared over her passing.

 

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

Again, it's the hart in reference to Lyanna that I struggle with. A hart is a male stag deer, while a hind is female stag deer. GRRM understands the difference between these, I would think.

Like Maester Aemon said, dragons have no gender, so I would expect that magic also has no gender. Ice magic or Fire magic is magic. The story of the Lord of Storm's end stealing Elenei - aka "magic" or the magical forces of nature - is like I said, a metaphorical story. I'm assuming the white hart has a mystical symbolism? Maybe alienarea would know since he said that in his country no one will kill one for fear they would die next? 

Sometimes I am too literal, and get hung up on small little details that don't bother anyone else. This might be one of those times and I just need to let it slide by ... 

 

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

As the the Ned part, I am not as sure as you about these terrible, ugly lies. But I am wondering about Jon Arryn, now that you mention him. Something about Jon Arryn's teeth rotting out of his mouth and poor breath hints to me that perhaps Jon Arryn is the cause of both Ned and Robert's subterfuge and lies.

Hey! That's some pretty astute analysis of Jon Arryn! The rotten teeth and bad breath as spreading lies is intriguing, because I have suspected that Jon Arryn was making deals with Tywin behind the scenes.

Thanks. There is something very off about Jon Arryn's role in the story. In Eddard I, Robert tells us how much he loved Jon Arryn and Ned agrees he too loved him. So, what kind of power did Jon Arryn wield over Ned and Robert. Did he use them as tools for a rebellion? Why would Jon Arryn want the dragons taken down? It's pretty tinfoily, but I have speculated that Ned was actually a hostage in the vale, much like Theon is at Winterfell, and that when Aerys demanded Ned's head (we are not told he asked for Robert's head) that JA refused and raised his banners. How much would this have meant to Ned? Enough that he might do anything that JA asked of him? I think so, If Robert had demanded Ned to take Theon's head, how loyal would Theon have been to Ned if Ned had refused to do Robert's dirty work? Pretty damn loyal, I bet. Pardon my tangent, but I do see some strong parallel's in Ned and Theon. Except Ned made a good choice and didn't end up Reek. I think it's a tale of decisions, good and bad.

I do think there could have been some conniving between Jon Arryn and Tywin, after all, JA arranged the marriage to Cersei, so that seems to indicate some level of conniving together. And how did JA settle Dorne after the deaths of Elia and her children? Some stinks about it all. But this is the first time I really thought about his rotten teeth and bad breath, but it does rather mimic how terrible Tywin's corpse smells. This is something that ties them together in symbolism, I think.

13 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

59 minutes ago, St Daga said:

In reality, hinds do not have horns, but in some mythology, hinds do have antlers. The golden hind, or  Ceryneian Hind, was Hurcules third labor. This hind was extremely large, had golden antlers and bronze hooves, and was said to be so fast she could out run an arrow. She was sacred to Artemis, goddess of the hunt, animals and maidens. In some version of the legend, Hercules chased it for a year. In some versions he trapped her, or shot her with an arrow, or never caught her, but Artemis said his quest was completed anyway. An elusive white hind might be something that GRRM would include in his work, but didn't. He used the hart.

Ships are genderless, yet are often referred to as "she". Elenei was never a real human in Planetos history. She represents magic. The white hart is symbolic of ice magic. The reason why a red deer can be born white is due to a rare genetic mutation. Lyanna is associated with ice. She's the moon maid or ice maid. The Stark family genetics includes the ability to skinchange. It's a magical gene inserted into their lineage. Lyanna holds this magic gene in her DNA. Her children can inherit the gene whether they are male or female. 

You make a very good point about ships being genderless, but often referred to as females. And, the skinchanger gene could also be a genderless trait, or at least gender doesn't matter in skinchanging. We know Varamyr has been inside all his animals, female and male. 

15 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I found this with a web search:

Quote

 

For the ancient Celts, the white hart was a harbinger of doom, a living symbol that some taboo has been transgressed or a moral law broken. 

To come across a white hart was to realise that some terrible evil or judgment was imminent. 

The white hart's reputation improved in Arthurian legends, where its appearance was a sign to Arthur and his knights that it was time to embark on a quest - it was considered the one animal that could never be caught so it came to symbolise humanity's never-ending pursuit of knowledge and the unattainable.

 

 

Yes, I have been doing a little white hart searching as well. I found this on the white stag in celtic mythology. It differs a bit from what you found, but it does have hints of the power of the otherworld, and great change, not necessarily doom, but "change is a coming". Change certainly came soon for Robert and Ned after the white hart was spotted. Maybe even before, considering Ned's injury happens before the white hart makes an appearance in the text.

So, if the white stag appears after something sacred has been broken, and it appears in the text after Ned's injury, but before Robert's, what was the "something sacred" that was broken? Of course, who the heck really knows if that is what GRRM intended?

Also, there is the horned god symbolism of Cernunnos, which ties to Robert and his antlered helm, and also to Robert's imagery as Garth Greenhand.

 

 

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Celtic Mythology

In Celtic mythology, the White Stag symbolises the existence of the Otherworld and that forces from the Otherworld are present and in action.   The Celtic god Cernunnos was depicted zoomorphically as a man with horns growing from his head.

In earlier times the Celts believed that the white stag was an agent from the ‘Other world’ and a bringer of great changes to those it encountered. The white stag often appeared when something sacred, or a law or code, was being broken.

 

 

[JNR]

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Aerys immediately orders Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent and Gerold Hightower on a mission to kill Rhaegar's mistresses including Ashara Dayne, her daughter and the pregnant Lyanna Stark, which he knows are in Starfall. 

I'm pretty confident that if Aerys had ever known where Lyanna was during the war, he would have taken her hostage as leverage against Ned and Robert, because

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Ned had loved her with all his heart. Robert had loved her even more.

The premise that Aerys was too insane to think of this seemingly obvious idea is demonstrated false by the fact that at the same time he did take Elia hostage, to compel the loyalty of the Dornish.

It's close to unimaginable to me that neither Aerys, nor any of his advisers, would have thought of this idea for multiple months during the war against Robert, whom Aerys considered to be:

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the greatest threat House Targaryen had faced since Daemon Blackfyre

 

[Lady Rhodes]

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

Something about Jon Arryn's teeth rotting out of his mouth and poor breath hints

Very interesting

 

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Jon Arryn was making deals with Tywin behind the scenes.

Correct me if I am wrong, but he brokered the marriage between Cersei and Robert, no?

[Frey family reunion]

53 minutes ago, St Daga said:

But I don't think that Ned put Lyanna and Brandon next to each other.

Ah, I think you’re right.  

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There were three tombs, side by side.  Lord Rickard Stark, Ned’s father, had a long, stern face. The stonemason had known him well. He sat with quiet dignity, stone fingers holding tight to the sword across his lap, but in life all swords had failed him. In two smaller sepulchres on either side were his children.

So in other words Rickard is keeping Brandon and Lyanna apart in death, just like he unsuccessfully tried to do in life:

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“Robert will never keep to one bed,” Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm’s End. I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale.” Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. “Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man’s nature.”

And

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“The day I learned that Brandon was to marry Catelyn Tully though ... there was nothing sweet about that pain.  He never wanted her, I promise you that.  He told me so, on our last night together ... but Rickard Stark had great ambitions too.  Southron ambitions that would not be served by having his heir marry the daughter of one of his own vassals.

[Melifeather]

23 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Thanks. There is something very off about Jon Arryn's role in the story. In Eddard I, Robert tells us how much he loved Jon Arryn and Ned agrees he too loved him. So, what kind of power did Jon Arryn wield over Ned and Robert. Did he use them as tools for a rebellion? Why would Jon Arryn want the dragons taken down? It's pretty tinfoily, but I have speculated that Ned was actually a hostage in the vale, much like Theon is at Winterfell, and that when Aerys demanded Ned's head (we are not told he asked for Robert's head) that JA refused and raised his banners. How much would this have meant to Ned? Enough that he might do anything that JA asked of him? I think so, If Robert had demanded Ned to take Theon's head, how loyal would Theon have been to Ned if Ned had refused to do Robert's dirty work? Pretty damn loyal, I bet. Pardon my tangent, but I do see some strong parallel's in Ned and Theon. Except Ned made a good choice and didn't end up Reek. I think it's a tale of decisions, good and bad.

I do think there could have been some conniving between Jon Arryn and Tywin, after all, JA arranged the marriage to Cersei, so that seems to indicate some level of conniving together. And how did JA settle Dorne after the deaths of Elia and her children? Some stinks about it all. But this is the first time I really thought about his rotten teeth and bad breath, but it does rather mimic how terrible Tywin's corpse smells. This is something that ties them together in symbolism, I think.

Ned was sent as a ward to Jon Arryn, because five great houses were negotiating an alliance. Rickard Stark had "southron ambitions", so what does that mean? It means he wanted to remove Aerys from the throne, so he entered into negotiations with southern houses. He not only sent Ned to the Eyrie, he promised Lyanna to Robert Baratheon, and he arranged a marriage between Brandon and Catelyn Tully, when he should have found suitable matches from his northern bannermen to bind them to Winterfell. Maybe old Rickard wanted Lyanna to be queen?

Tywin promised Jaime to Lysa Tully, but then his investiture into the Kingsguard left Tywin without a marriage alliance. He certainly wasn't going to offer Cersei to anyone that wasn't going to be king, so he entered into a secret pact with Jon Arryn to eliminate Lyanna so the way would be clear to match Cersei to Robert. It was a brilliant plan if executed, because it would retain the alliance with Winterfell. Not only would it retain the alliance with Winterfell, it would send the wolves running after the prey.

16 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Correct me if I am wrong, but he brokered the marriage between Cersei and Robert, no?

Yes, but they were very careful to wait an appropriate time after Robert was crowned so as to not stir up any suspicion.

[PrettyPig]

3 hours ago, St Daga said:

In reality, hinds do not have horns, but in some mythology, hinds do have antlers. The golden hind, or  Ceryneian Hind, was Hurcules third labor. This hind was extremely large, had golden antlers and bronze hooves, and was said to be so fast she could out run an arrow. She was sacred to Artemis, goddess of the hunt, animals and maidens. In some version of the legend, Hercules chased it for a year. In some versions he trapped her, or shot her with an arrow, or never caught her, but Artemis said his quest was completed anyway. An elusive white hind might be something that GRRM would include in his work, but didn't. He used the hart.

This ties in with some things I stumbled upon also.  

First, GRRM’s use of the word “horn“ for a deer vs. the more accurate “antler“ struck me as strange as well.     I realize they are sometimes used interchangeably, but it’s a deer, not a bighorn sheep or a rhino.  

Which leads me to the next point, something you touched on with the Ceryneian Hind and that is reinforced in the text:  a white hart is a bit of a fantastical creature, associated with myth and legend.   Per Sansa, “White harts were supposed to be very rare and magical“.   In real-life lore, specifically Shakespeare ‘s The Merry Wives of Windsor, the white hart is associated with Herne the Hunter, “..the ghost of a former Windsor forest keeper who haunts a particular oak tree at midnight in the winter time, wearing horns, shaking chains, and causing cows to produce blood instead of milk.“   Although it isn’t known where/how Shakespeare came up with this reference, Herne (alternately “Horne“ ) has of course since been linked to other characters of similar physical characteristics, such as pagan deities.....guess which ones(s)?     

(I see you touched on it in a later post!   Great minds think alike!)

So a rare & magical creature spotted in the forest, with horns and hooves.     Our very own Horned Lord.

Now, George has additional interesting wording in the text about the hart:

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They found the white hart, it seems … or rather, what remained of it. Some wolves found it first, and left His Grace scarcely more than a hoof and a horn. 

Note that some wolves FOUND it first.  Not killed it, not ate it, FOUND it.   Killing/eating is implied of course, but I think this tricksy wording may be representative of an act undertaken by people...i.e. the Starks.     Wolves found the rare and magical creature, and managed to keep it away from the King out hunting for it, leaving naught but a few traces of its existence for the king - the traces being parts of the animal that can be trimmed/cut off without doing major mortal damage to the animal.   Very interesting. 

In the end, though, the king is distracted from the hart by another creature he wishes to destroy...the monstrous boar.   Boars have their own symbolism, namely that they are fierce warriors and defenders of territory, confrontational and not afraid to take on a powerful foe.   A boar also happens to be the sigil of House Crakehall – something of note in itself being that their boar is black and white, but even moreso considering who once squired for House Crakehall and defended Lord Sumner against the Kingswood Brotherhood....our mighty warrior Ser Jaime Lannister.     Ser Jaime, of course, later goring King Aerys Targaryen with his sharp tusk just as the forest boar gored King Robert Baratheon.

So a king goes hunting for a rare and magical horned creature, but is thwarted from claiming his prize by wolves.  He turns his bloodthirst toward a boar instead, but underestimates the boar’s power and is killed by it.

Another point of interest:   Sansa’s thoughts on the white hart.       At the time, Robert and Ned are both still alive, and Sansa is promised to Joffrey, the Crown Prince.    She is smitten with him, in awe of his looks and his charm despite the unpleasantness of his parents.  “..in her heart she knew her gallant prince was worthier than his drunken father.“     Sansa is still in her prissy court maiden phase, even looking down her nose at her more pedestrian friend Jeyne Poole for crushing on the handsome Beric Dondarrion...the lightning lord of the stormlands.  

Sansa then goes on to humble-brag to Jeyne about Joffrey:

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 “I had a dream that Joffrey would be the one to take the white hart," she said. It had been more of a wish, actually, but it sounded better to call it a dream. Everyone knew that dreams were prophetic.

...

„A dream?  Truly?  Did Prince Joffrey just go up to and touch it with his bare hand and do it no harm?“

„No,“ Sansa said.   „He shot it with a golden arrow and brought it back for me.“    In the songs, the knights never killed magical beasts, they just went up to them and touched them and did them no harm, but she knew Joffrey liked hunting, especially the killing part.     Only animals, though.   Sansa was sure her prince had no part in murdering Jory and those other poor men; that had been his wicked uncle, the Kingslayer.   She knew her father was still angry about that, but it wasn’t fair to blame Joff.   That would be like blaming her for something that Arya had done. 

 

 

 

There is so much denial and irony in this passage I don’t even know where to begin, really, so will just begin at the beginning.   lol    Right, so a prophecy of sorts about the Crown Prince, NOT the king, being the one to successfully down the White Hart...with a golden arrow, no less (a magical/alchemical weapon meant to ‚penetrate the ‘aura‘ of the target and instantly release its energy that results in a heightend state of awareness/ascendance to a higher spiritual plane).      Hmmm.   

But this wish/dream/prophecy goes against the grain of other tales of legend in which the valiant knight has a beastly communion with the creature and then sets it free to live its magical life in peace....nope, in this dream, the knight kills it and brings it home to his love.      To what end, we do not know, but it can’t be good...at least not for the poor slain creature, anyway.    Dany wears the pelt of the rare white lion as a glorified coat/blanket, and Tommen later mentions Joff killing a fawn and having it made into a jerkin, so to me the logical result is that someone would at some point be wearing the skin of the prized white hart in some way -  an idea that is not insignificant given the story.

 

Nutshell:  Aerys and Rhaegar were in search of a very particular white hart.  The Starks prevented them from getting it.    Who in the story, associated with rare and magical horned beasts,   could that be?   Who was taken by wolves before the king and his royal subjects closed in?

 

I have to stop here for now but will return to the named ships portion later.  

 

[Melifeather]

5 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

Switching gears for a moment, because otherwise I will forget.   Returning to my own post, I had a thought in the shower (where I have all my best thoughts) about Lyanna participating in a kidnapping in a parallel to Cat/Tyrion that 1) vexes the royal family, and 2) sets of a chain of events that led to war and ruin.     Whatever she did would have to be really impulsive, somewhat greedy/selfish, and mostly reckless, in keeping with the idea of the wolf blood leading to her death.

So above I mused on Lyanna taking baby Aegon to prevent dragon hatching.

Aegon.

Egg.

The Last Dragon’s Egg.

 A dragon egg.

Stolen from a dragon’s hoard.

 

it stands to reason that, if you’re going to hatch a dragon, you need an egg.   Is this what the wolf girl stole?   

Maybe three eggs were stolen? I mean, Illyrio had to get them from somewhere, right?

[Brad Stark]

All this talk about ship names and no one mentions the stinky steward? 

[St Daga]

2 hours ago, JNR said:

Also, of course, it's been a standard part of R+L=J for years that at least one other person rode away from the TOJ besides Ned and Howland.  Because Ned remembers:

Quote

They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief.

"They" had found him.  Not just Howland.

So either there were other people at the TOJ, whose identities are yet to be disclosed, or this scene Ned remembers did not happen at the TOJ at all, and she died somewhere else.

Well, my feeling is that the room that Lyanna was in when she died was not at the toj. I waver on whether I think it was before or after, because part of me does think Lyanna could have been dead before the Battle of the Trident, and both Robert and Ned knew. Of course, the argument to that option is the "It had taken another death to reconcile them; Lyanna's death, and the grief they had shared over her passing." This passage hints that Lyanna's death was after Ned left KL to finish the war in the south, but it could be very misleading, as well. I twist and turn on these details often, and my idea's twist and turn, too!

2 hours ago, JNR said:

The problem with this is that we know Ned and Robert weren't aware Lyanna was dead at the time Ned left King's Landing after the Sack:

Quote

Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south. It had taken another death to reconcile them; Lyanna's death, and the grief they had shared over her passing.

 

Oh, same quote I just used. But I am not sold that this really means that Lyanna was alive at the time that Robert and Ned argued in Kings Landing. It could be interpreted that even though they knew she was previously dead, it was their grief over her passing that finally reconciled them. And I am not sure that this reconciling happened quickly. I wonder if it wasn't some time later. After all, we have no hints that Ned was at Robert's coronation or his wedding to Cersei. I don't think Ned was involved. I think Ned might have taken care of his business in the south and went back to the north, bypassing Robert and Jon Arryn  and Kings Landing entirely. I have wondered if it wasn't until the Greyjoy Rebellion that Ned and Robert reconciled. And still, some thing is odd in their relationship, since they have not seen each other since the Greyjoy Rebellion.

While I think Lyanna could have died before the Trident, I also have some tinfoil that puts Lyanna's death much later. Years, even! Perhaps Lyanna's "death in the mountains of Dorne" was figurative and not actual? There are some lies that Ned has some guilt over, and what if he lied to Robert about Lyanna's death. Then, Robert was married to Cersei in an alliance that eventually wore down all of Robert's power and placed that power in the hands of the lions. If Ned has mislead Robert about Lyanna's death, and she did survive the rebellion, this really messed up Robert's plans for a happily ever after with Lyanna.

I think perhaps Lyanna and Ned knew that the Lannister's wished her dead, so then Robert would be free for Cersei, and perhaps they thought the best way to save Lyanna's life was to fake her death. I know this sounds pretty nuts, but there is something about Ashara's implied but not confirmed death that plays into Lyanna's story.

Also the fact that Arya is thought to be dead with no confirmation, and we know she is alive, that hints at a similar pattern in Lyanna's story. I just can't quite put all my tinfoil together into something resembling art work ... Yet! Also the fact that another party throws a fake Arya into the story line makes me wonder if someone didn't throw a fake Lyanna into the story line. A Lyanna that could be killed, therefore freeing Robert to marry Cersei. Just thinking on the fly, right now, so this is sloppy...

 

2 hours ago, JNR said:

I'm pretty confident that if Aerys had ever known where Lyanna was during the war, he would have taken her hostage as leverage against Ned and Robert

I agree. He either didn't know where she was, or he knew and could not get his hands on her. Now, Arya is missing and no one knows where she was, so I think this plays out in Lyanna's story as well. And you are correct that Aerys was smart enough to use Elia as a pawn to control Dorne and Lewyn Martell, so he is smart enough to do the same with Lyanna. Heck, it's exactly what he had done for a year or two with Jaime, as well. Aerys might have been "mad", whatever the hell that really means, but he wasn't stupid.

 

[SirArthur]

3 hours ago, JNR said:

Ned means two of the ten combatants lived to ride away. 

Anyway, he should have at least 5 spare horses from his fallen buddies plus whatever the KG and everyone at the tower used to reach the place of joy. One, Lord Dustin's stallion, is even brought back to Lady Dustin. 

conclusion: When his Nedship rode away, he had additional horses with him, yet no bodies. And whomever he rode away with, had to arrive at the tower.

It's like the math joke: at a bus station one person enters a bus, three leave the bus. So the bus has -2 passengers in total. 

[Lady Rhodes]

12 minutes ago, St Daga said:

And still, some thing is odd in their relationship, since they have not seen each other since the Greyjoy Rebellion.

They also "ruled" parts of the kingdom thousands of miles apart, during a time modeled after a period in our own history that such a journey would be fraught with peril. I am not dismissing your point that something may be off between them, but we should also be realistic and frequent travel, especially coming from the North, would not be commonplace.

[Lady Rhodes]

15 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Also the fact that Arya is thought to be dead with no confirmation, and we know she is alive, that hints at a similar pattern in Lyanna's story.

Very interesting!

[St Daga]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

3 hours ago, St Daga said:

the Storm Dancer

Robert Baratheon was setup in the story as the Storm Lord of Storm's End for a reason. There's great symbolism with the Storm Lord and the magic maiden (Elenei). His sighting of the white hart that harbingers his fatal wound by the boar is natures way of punishing him for what he did. Having the Targaryens in place as this evil reign that sacrificed children by burning them to hatch dragon eggs should have been justification enough to remove them from the throne, but if my suspicions that Robert conspired with Jon Arryn and Tywin Lannister to sacrifice the magic ice maiden Lyanna Stark in order to achieve it, then two wrongs don't make a right.

The vision that Bran saw when his mother was sailing on the Storm Dancer is the story in a nutshell. The looming giant armor with the helm full of black blood does have multiple meanings. While it does symbolize the order of knighthood, it also symbolizes the replicated armor that Jaime wore when he pretended to be Rhaegar when Lyanna was abducted. The implication is that Robert knew about the plot, but the Lannisters promised that they'd help him become king. 

I have a different interpretation on the Storm Dancer. Part of my thoughts almost always go to parentage of our mystery children in what I call alphabet soup. On LH, we have been working on that parentage reread, and so my mind is almost always stuck on trying to place the x y and z's together.

I agree whole heartedly about Robert's storm imagery. He is the Storm Lord, his home lands are the Storm Lands, the last Storm King was his great, great, great etc. grandfather, his people claim decent from the line of the Storm God, and the man who defeated said Storm God, Robert is referred to as the Laughing Storm reborn, which is a nod to Lyonel Baratheon, whose son married Rhaelle Targaryen, giving Robert his dragon blood. Storm imagery all over Robert. His laughter is like a sudden storm, his temper is like a storm, his war hammer hints at Thor, god of thunder and storms.

So, I think the the Storm Dancer is trying to tell us something about one of our children, a child who perhaps was carried on a ship, from White Harbor to Kings Landing, mirroring Catelyn's journey south.

Dancer is the next part of this puzzle. When I think of dancing in this story, I think of one person. Okay, part of my thinks of Bran's horse, but that horse didn't have a baby, so the person that I associate in this story with dancing is Ashara Dayne. We don't know much about her, but we know that she is referred to as the maid with laughing purple eyes in Howland's Harrenhal story. "The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf . . . " So, she has laughing purple eyes, but she is noted to have danced with several men at Harrenhal. Ashara's major action in this story is dancing. Oh, and falling/jumping from a tower supposedly.

I think we are to take some thing away from this ship, the Storm Dancer. Robert the Storm, Ashara the Dancer. I think this hints at them having some time of sexual relationship at Harrenhal, and I think it resulted in a child.

You know who also has a lot of Storm imagery in her story line? Daenerys! Hells bells, she is called Daenerys Stormborn. I have felt for quite a long time that stormborn was a hint to her actually being a bastard either from the stormlands or being born in the stormlands. Dany, who we are told reminds Barristan Selmy of Ashara Dayne. Ashara and Daenerys are both associated with violet eyes. Robert also has bell imagery in his story line, and so does Dany. He is famous for the Battle of the Bells, she wheres bells in her hair as she conquers her way across Essos. They are both conquerors. 

This might be my nuttiest bit of cracked pottery yet, and I don't blame people for laughing and saying no fricking way, but I think that Dany could be the child of Robert and Ashara. I argue with myself over this, and can't answer why Dany has silver/gold hair, and both Robert and Ashara are noted to have dark hair. But besides that and Dany's much younger reported age (which could be a lie), it all fits pretty well.

So, as @PrettyPig had mentioned up thread, she has some idea's on the Fisherman's Daughter and I do too. I linked the Sloe-Eyed Maid to both Dany in Quarth, and I think to Ashara traveling from the vale to White Harbor with Ned. Sloe berries are a purplish blue hue, and purple is associated with Ashara for certain, and Dany too. People thought she was having Ned's baby because she was pregnant, only it wasn't Ned's baby, it was Robert's. At that time, I thought that perhaps Ashara traveled back to Dorne to have her baby, and I thought that baby might have been Rhaegar's or Aerys.

But, many months later, when I connected the Storm Dancer to also being in White Harbor in Davos's Dance chapters that give us the story of the Fisherman's Daughter, and realized the Storm Dancer traveled the route from White Harbor to Kings Landing (right by Dragonstone), that I think Ned's bag of silver bought Ashara passage either to Dragonstone or Kings Landing. Put by Storm and Dancer clues together, I think that Ashara was indeed prego, but now I think it was Roberts baby. After all, Robert does seem to be the most fertile seed sewer in our story.

Now, I think the Merry Midwife ship hints at either Lyanna or Wylla in our story. I actually think that Lyanna could be Wylla or assumed her identity, but she was a part of sneaking a pregnant Ashara out of the north. This is all very loose, but I think that Ashara perhaps tried to let Robert know about the baby, but he was already off to Gull Town to fight his part of the early rebellion, and so she traveled with Ned. Or Robert knew she was pregnant and rejected her, which I think he is very capable of doing. 

I do think the Merry Midwife is noted to have pocked wormholes, which I do think fit's the idea that @Feather Crystal has about Lyanna and her red spots. The Merry Midwife is also painted grey and has grey sails. Sounds Stark like to me.

Like I said, this is pretty crazy, and a lot of it is based on ship name interpretations, which I could be totally wrong about. Before this little bug burrowed in my skull, I was pretty sure that Dany is Rhaegar's daughter by either Ashara (or Lyanna), but this has made me doubt that more than a little bit. 

And I think that Ned knows that Dany is Robert's daughter, and that is why he tried so hard to talk Robert out of ordering her death, he was trying to save his best friend from becoming a kinslayer!

As Ygritte tells Jon, and us, "the gods hate kinslayers, even when they kill unknowing."

Sorry for that huge departure from the eight cairns theme! I am a major derailer of threads!