Heresy 211 Eight Cairns

[Frey family reunion]

On 8/6/2018 at 7:21 PM, St Daga said:

Right now, I can't look away from Sam as Aegon. Can't do it. I think because we met him so early and that he has been under our unsuspecting noses from the start, that he is the most likely suspect.

One of the reasons, that I’m leaning more towards Quentyn than Sam for the Aegon role, is that the Water Gardens more fully allow for this type of chicanery.  Doran and Mellario leave Sunspear, go down to the Water Gardens for about a year and come back with a new member of the royal family.

It would be much harder to pull that off in Horn’s Hill.  Also, Stannis’ wife who is a Florent, is described as having pale eyes which would be a match to Sam’s pale eyes.  Of course Sam is missing the Florent ears.

If many of the main characters are united by a return of magical bloodlines of old (Jon as the King of Winter, Dany as the bloodline of Aegon the Conqueror) then my guess is that Sam’s secret may lie as a return of the bloodline of once extinguished Gardner Kings of the Reach.

GRRM’s obvious inspiration for Sam is Samwell Gangee from LOTR.  Well interestingly enough, according to a wiki article Tolkien did explore Sam’s history a bit after the events of LOTR.  Sam raised a family and they changed their names from Gangee to Gardner.

There is a bit in ASOS where the Queen of Thorns is talking to Sansa about the old time bloodlines.  She talks about the Starks, and how the Baratheons are descended from the Storm Kings on their mothers side.  Then she talks about how the Tyrells are merely Stewards.  She says they claim that they are descended from the Gardner Kings, but the Florents state that they have a better claim.

My thought is that Randyll Tarly’s hostility to Sam may be less about Sam being fat and effeminate and perhaps more about a suspicion that Sam isn’t really his.  Sam is born around the time of time of the rebellion.  He is said to be slightly older than Jon.  This would put his conception around the beginning of the rebellion (based on what everyone seems to assume about Jon being younger than Robb).  This would have been the time when the Tyrells and the Tarlys had come together in preparation for them joining the war against the rebellion.  

So if Sam was conceived then, it could have been by a Tyrell rather than by Randyll Tarly.  So who could the culprit be?  There has been a repeated reference to an uncle of Mace, Garth the Gross.  He appears to be unmarried but according to the appendix he has a number of bastards.  He is also considered very smart and very obese.  

So we have Garth the Gross, Garlan the Gallant, and perhaps Sam the Slayer???

If so, this would make Sam both a Tyrell and a Florent the two Houses that seem to make the best claim to being descended from the bloodline of the Gardner kings.  And for some reason there doesn’t seem to be any other Tyrell Florent pairings.

And I do think that there is something significant about Florent blood.  Melisandre is hell bent on sacrificing Edric Storm.  And Edric’s Bloodlines are from both the Baratheon and Florent bloodline.  Then Melisandre does sacrifice another Florent, to help them have a speedy journey north to the Wall.  Then in ADWD, we have Allister Florent (I think it was Allister) bragging about how his Florent line is descended from the bloodline of the Gardner Kings.

Then we have to look at where Sam is positioned in the story.  He has been brought to Oldtown, which is in the Reach.  Assuming we are starting to get near the end of the series, this would place the possible culmination of Sam’s storyline in the Reach which would make sense if indeed he is a return of the magical Gardner bloodline.

 

[St Daga]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

It would be much harder to pull that off in Horn’s Hill.  Also, Stannis’ wife who is a Florent, is described as having pale eyes which would be a match to Sam’s pale eyes.  Of course Sam is missing the Florent ears.

Yes, to Selyse's pale eyes. It is one of things that could connect her to Sam by blood. The ears do stick out to me about the Florent's, or the lack of Florent ears, but it doesn't necessarily get passed down to every family member. Pale eyes might turn out to be a Florent trait.

Pale eyes also bring to mind Roose and Ramsay, and at some point, I wondered if Sam's pale eyes linked back to Roose. Something in that passage where Sam talks about Randyll skinning a deer. This symbolism is important, I think. So, this act of removing skin is not unlike what Bolton's of old have done to Starks (and perhaps more recently still are), or something a none-skin changer might do to a skin changer. There is also a slight implication in that the animal was a deer, which brings to mind Robert and the "stag"gering number of bastards he has produced. So at different times, I have speculated possible Bolton (via Roose the raper during the war) or Baratheon (via Robert of the the healthy appetites) might have impregnated Melessa Florent. And a pregnant Melessa was given to Randyll Tarly to marry. Randyll Tarly is not kind to rapers!

One thing that is odd about Sam, at least to me, is why does Randyll chose to send Sam to the wall when he does? We are not given specifics on the length of Sam's journey or the path he took, but he arrives at the wall several weeks after Jon, but long before Ned's death, so it wasn't Ned's death that caused Randyll to repudiate Sam. That makes me think, if someone did plant Sam in House Tarly for his safety, what suddenly changed and allow Randyll not to stick to such an arrangement? Of course, this is pure speculation that Sam isn't exactly who he is supposed to be.

I think that key factor was the death of Jon Arryn. That death changed so much in the landscape of the Seven Kingdoms. I think that Jon Arryn has hand was the glue that held Robert's reign together, and his death caused a domino effect in the realm. I think Arryn's death also set forward motions in Dorne. Now, Sam might not be Rhaegar's or Robert's or Roose's, or anything but what he claims, but the details we have about Sam, and the details we don't have, make me think there is something suspicious in his story.

 

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

GRRM’s obvious inspiration for Sam is Samwell Gangee from LOTR.  Well interestingly enough, according to a wiki article Tolkien did explore Sam’s history a bit after the events of LOTR.  Sam raised a family and they changed their names from Gangee to Gardner.

There is a bit in ASOS where the Queen of Thorns is talking to Sansa about the old time bloodlines.  She talks about the Starks, and how the Baratheons are descended from the Storm Kings on their mothers side.  Then she talks about how the Tyrells are merely Stewards.  She says they claim that they are descended from the Gardner Kings, but the Florents state that they have a better claim.

 

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

If so, this would make Sam both a Tyrell and a Florent the two Houses that seem to make the best claim to being descended from the bloodline of the Gardner kings.

If this turned out to be the fate of Sam, I would not be disappointed. I see the Florent hints as well, and I do think that Florent blood is some of the King's Blood that Mel is after, but she doesn't even understand, truly. As you point out, it's in Edric Storm she wants to burn, just as it's in Alester Florent, who she does burn on Dragonstone. And who is Sam's grandfather, but that is never mentioned, but any character. So odd. Stannis should very well know his wife's cousins and her children, he should know that Sam is at the wall just by asking around, tell Mel that information, and Mel should be interested in Sam for sacrifice. It's a big hole I see in the story right now, but perhaps GRRM means to close it up, as some point.

Lann the Clever is rumored to be a bastard of Florys the Fox, whom House Florent is descended through. It's all woven together.

As to the reuniting of the Gardner blood lines, it makes sense, but I think it's more than just the Gardner bloodlines. House Gardner did rule the reach for thousands of years, but they were only one house that was descended from Garth Greenhand, via his eldest son. Alester and Rylene married Crane's, another House said to be descended from Garth Greenhand. Axell doesn't seem to be married and is shopping for a wife, but he could have been previously married. Two other Florent brothers are married and have children, but the names of their spouses have not been mentioned. This is Ryam (Selyse's father, Shireen's grandfather) and Colin (Delena's father, Edric Storm's grandfather). I think the women that Ryam and Colin married probably related back to families in the reach who descend from Garth Greenhand.

It seems like there is something important about Highgarden and the weirwoods there, the Three Singer's. Three seems vastly important in this story. I do think there are three important entities in play, but I also think it's possible the Three Singer's of Highgarden are actually one weirwood, with the roots so deep in the ground, they appear to be three trees instead of one, just like R'hller and the Great Other might be two of three aspects of one great power.

 

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

If many of the main characters are united by a return of magical bloodlines of old (Jon as the King of Winter, Dany as the bloodline of Aegon the Conqueror) then my guess is that Sam’s secret may lie as a return of the bloodline of once extinguished Gardner Kings of the Reach.

It seems that the Stark's are also descended from Garth Greenhand, via Brandon of the Bloody Blade and his son/grandson Brandon the Builder. It's possible in this story we will get the side of R'hller, the side of the Great Other, and the side that is descended from Garth Greenhand. The mediator side, the balance between light and dark, ice and fire, heat and cold. What does the middle head of Trios do? It gives balance, I think, but perhaps in a not very nice way.

Granted, in another six months, I might completely see all of these connections differently and have a completely new cracked pot with which to create my tinfoil!

 

[PrettyPig]

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

GRRM’s obvious inspiration for Sam is Samwell Gangee from LOTR.  Well interestingly enough, according to a wiki article Tolkien did explore Sam’s history a bit after the events of LOTR.  Sam raised a family and they changed their names from Gangee to Gardner.

I was thinking on the whole idea of Sam = Real Aegon, and I know there are lots of subtle hints that point to him being a Targaryen.

However, thinking about Sam in relation to his LOTR counterpart Samwise Gamgee, I wonder if GRRM is using these clues simply to foreshadow that Sam will eventually unite and rule the 7 Kingdoms as Aegon the Conqueror did, ushering in a “New“ era of Westeros/a new dynasty just as Aegon the Conqueror did.    In keeping with Feather’s Wheel of Time concept, this new dynasty would be a return to the old(est) dynasty of Garth Greenhand and the Gardner kings of the Reach.   Going back to where it all began, more or less.

Samwise Gamgee-now-Gardner became Mayor of the Shire and ‘ruled‘ for seven consecutive terms – giving the Shire a long period of prosperity following the War for the Ring and the Battle for Middle Earth.  Recall also that Samwise made a point to go throughout the Shire and replant trees that had been destroyed during the scouring ... and according to Dany dragons plant no trees, so I think Sam being Aegon would be a bit of a contradiction in terms of his Garth Greenhand heritage.    It would be quite fitting if Samwell somehow restored weirwoods to the continent, particularly in the places where they were totally destroyed and/or dead, just as Samwise brought a mallorn tree to Party Field.

Also, Samwise married Rose Cotton, the girl on his mind all during his journey, and had thirteen children by her – and Samwell is currently in love with Gilly(flower)...my guess is that he will marry her eventually and sow many seeds with her as well, and his „fruits“ will further secure the new-old dominion of the Gardners for generations to come.  

Nutshell, yes, I do agree that all signs point to Sam being the rightful king...just maybe not in a baby swap/hidden identities sort of way.     Samwell is portrayed as being sort of innocent and incorruptible by power, which is the same quality that allowed Samwise to become a Ring-bearer and succeed in resisting its temptations whereas others did not.    Sam doesn’t feel that he deserves power, which probably makes him the ideal person to have it.    Plus, GRRM loves his chubby nerds, so chances are good that Sam the Slayer will prosper in what is left of the 7K after all is said and done.

[Frey family reunion]

 

2 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

Nutshell, yes, I do agree that all signs point to Sam being the rightful king...just maybe not in a baby swap/hidden identities sort of way. 

I do think there is too much attention being paid to someone being a "rightful king" under the ever changing and varying feudal rules that have governed Westeros.  I think George is more concerned about being a "genetic king".  I.e. in having the right magical bloodline despite the manner in which you got them.

So Jon could be a "king" just not a legal (whatever that means) claimant to a short lived Targaryen kingdom that no longer exists.  My thought is he is a "Winter King" of the genetic kind.  His bloodlines harken back to a necessary bloodline to either cause or end a long winter. 

While Dany may not be a "princess" or "queen"  in the sense that she is the trueborn daughter of Aerys and Rhaella, but she may have a more significant role, if her bloodlines reunite the pure bloodlines of Aegon the Conqueror and his sisters, which allow her to do what the legal royal Targarens could not, both hatch and bond with dragons.

Finally, Sam may be a "king" as well, but once again of a genetic kind.  If indeed his bloodlines return a magical bloodline of the Gardner King. 

Unfortunately for all of our "kings" it may be that the significance of a magical bloodline lies not in giving one a political right to rule, but in being a possible sacrifice to allow for a significant magical event to occur.

Quote

Aemon had demurred.  "There is power in a king's blood," the old master had warned, "and better men than Stannis have done worse things than this."

So Sam's ultimate act of bravery may be coming to this realization and knowing that for the sake of the realm he may have to sacrifice himself, or someone he cares deeply about.

[PrettyPig]

9 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

So Sam's ultimate act of bravery may be coming to this realization and knowing that for the sake of the realm he may have to sacrifice himself, or someone he cares deeply about.

Which would certainly be bittersweet, especially if the someone were to be a major character...

[SirArthur]

Somehow I always have major issues with any LOTR comparision. The story of Aragorn is not as simple as the films make them and they certainly have a lot of politics involved. Also Aragorn is not a hidden character, clueless about his identity. And identity is my main issue with all the comparisons. Aragorn had a full life of travel, service in Gondor and Rohan, he was engaged and even was a succesful "general" of Gondor. 

He is prob. as experienced as Tywin is in the story. 

[Melifeather]

42 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

However, thinking about Sam in relation to his LOTR counterpart Samwise Gamgee, I wonder if GRRM is using these clues simply to foreshadow that Sam will eventually unite and rule the 7 Kingdoms as Aegon the Conqueror did, ushering in a “New“ era of Westeros/a new dynasty just as Aegon the Conqueror did.    In keeping with Feather’s Wheel of Time concept, this new dynasty would be a return to the old(est) dynasty of Garth Greenhand and the Gardner kings of the Reach.   Going back to where it all began, more or less.

This is the perfect segue to something that popped into my mind today quite unexpectedly related to the wheel of time, and includes Howland's prayer at Harrenhal for "a way to win". It occurred to me that the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree could be more than a historical telling of an event - it might be an allegory for what the children are trying to accomplish with Bran. Howland prayed for a way to win, and Bran is the knight tasked with completing it. I now suspect that the "way to win" included putting time into a continual loop, and that extended seasons are attempts to slow it down.

Pretty Pig is well-versed in GRRM's love of Marvel and the inspiration he's derived and incorporated into ASOIAF, but there's one particular character that I feel is really influencing the overall arc and that's Dr Strange. If you've watched the Dr Strange movie you may recall that he defeats Dormammu by casting a spell over time itself, creating a continual time loop using the Eye of Agamotto. No matter how many times Dormammu killed Dr Strange, he always came back to the beginning which frustrated Dormammu into giving up. 

The more I think about Howland's prayer for "a way to win", the more I suspect it's referring to this time loop. Who is Howland praying for to win, or is this even about a side? I'm assuming since Howland was on the Isle of Faces and that the crannogmen are closer to the children of the forest, then they are behind the creation of the time loop. The time loops appear to be moving in reverse, so I do believe the children are hoping to return Westeros to a place in time where they feel they made a big mistake. 

[Lady Rhodes]

21 hours ago, St Daga said:

Anyway you stack it, something that has to do with false identities is going on in Dorne. Also odd is the fact that Tyrion wants Myrcella betrothed to Trystane, the younger son, and not Quentyn, the elder son who is only one step away from being his father's heir.

I have always found it odd. Being married to a second son, third child in a region that does not recognized male primogeniture is not a lofty match for the royal princess. It seems odd.

[Lady Rhodes]

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

And I do think that there is something significant about Florent blood.  

There is also the point that has always pestered me as to why the Florent family tree is in the back of the books starting in CoK. They are certainly not central to the story like the Starks, Baratheons, Lannisters, Greyjoys, etc. are. So why is it there?

[SirArthur]

18 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I have always found it odd. Being married to a second son, third child in a region that does not recognized male primogeniture is not a lofty match for the royal princess. It seems odd.

Why ? It's fine in my opinion.  Myrcella may not even qualify for the throne according to 101. It's a perfect mirror. Myrcella is behind Tommen if at all and only second by dornish interpretation. Trystan is third and only second by not dornish interpretation. 

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, PrettyPig said:

However, thinking about Sam in relation to his LOTR counterpart Samwise Gamgee, I wonder if GRRM is using these clues simply to foreshadow that Sam will eventually unite and rule the 7 Kingdoms as Aegon the Conqueror did, ushering in a “New“ era of Westeros/a new dynasty just as Aegon the Conqueror did.    In keeping with Feather’s Wheel of Time concept, this new dynasty would be a return to the old(est) dynasty of Garth Greenhand and the Gardner kings of the Reach.   Going back to where it all began, more or less.

Samwise Gamgee-now-Gardner became Mayor of the Shire and ‘ruled‘ for seven consecutive terms – giving the Shire a long period of prosperity following the War for the Ring and the Battle for Middle Earth.  Recall also that Samwise made a point to go throughout the Shire and replant trees that had been destroyed during the scouring ... and according to Dany dragons plant no trees, so I think Sam being Aegon would be a bit of a contradiction in terms of his Garth Greenhand heritage.    It would be quite fitting if Samwell somehow restored weirwoods to the continent, particularly in the places where they were totally destroyed and/or dead, just as Samwise brought a mallorn tree to Party Field.

Also, Samwise married Rose Cotton, the girl on his mind all during his journey, and had thirteen children by her – and Samwell is currently in love with Gilly(flower)...my guess is that he will marry her eventually and sow many seeds with her as well, and his „fruits“ will further secure the new-old dominion of the Gardners for generations to come.  

There are certainly similarities in Samwise and Samwell, but how much of the LotR story do we really expect GRRM to lay into his own novels, especially if it's very similar story line or conclusion. I would feel a little disappointed if we get Samwise's conclusion in Samwell's story. What GRRM seems to do so well is take elements from stories and myths and twist them into something new. Inspiration with a different outcome or message.

[PrettyPig]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Pretty Pig is well-versed in GRRM's love of Marvel and the inspiration he's derived and incorporated into ASOIAF, but there's one particular character that I feel is really influencing the overall arc and that's Dr Strange. If you've watched the Dr Strange movie you may recall that he defeats Dormammu by casting a spell over time itself, creating a continual time loop using the Eye of Agamotto. No matter how many times Dormammu killed Dr Strange, he always came back to the beginning which frustrated Dormammu into giving up. 

While I wouldn’t put too much stock into the movie plot because scriptwriters have deviated so much from the comic canon that GRRM would have been reading/inspired by, Dr. Strange does indeed have a habit of traveling through time and/or hanging out in alternate timelines to affect future outcomes.   As you know, I am firmly of the mind that GRRM is using Dr. Strange as an inspiration for Bran – and a major arc for Dr. Strange in the comics ends with him having to destroy himself in order to save humanity, and by doing so he does have to travel back through time and engage in something of a psychic battle outside the concept of time as we know it. 

 

That being said, there’s another Marvel timelord that holds equal importance in another comic arc that I am positive George is recycling.   This particular guy, Keeper of the Timestream, Watcher of the Timelines, and a branch relative of the original “Conqueror“, has spent a considerable portion of his existence protecting the timeline from abuse by genetic relatives/members of his own family (so to speak, not getting into that here).    In the arc I’m eyeballing, he breaks from his neutral position to aid the protagonists by foiling another “relative“ trying to force a prophesized outcome...and by foiling the plan, the prophesized outcome comes to pass as it should.

 

IMO GRRM is banking on the idea that no one will remember or care about some kooky Marvel plots from the 70s, and somehow, hopefully, eventually, maybe plans to meld these themes together.  So yes, time loops and factions working in tandem to fix something that got broken long ago and needs to be set right/rebalanced.

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

Also, Samwise married Rose Cotton, the girl on his mind all during his journey, and had thirteen children by her – and Samwell is currently in love with Gilly(flower)...my guess is that he will marry her eventually and sow many seeds with her as well, and his „fruits“ will further secure the new-old dominion of the Gardners for generations to come.  

He may have already sown at least one.

[St Daga]

I have been doing quite a bit of reading in the last several days on cairns, barrows, cists and burial  monuments. A cist is a stone-like box or ossuary that is built to hold a remains and is usually associated with a cairn or long barrow that covers the cist. The cist idea reminds me of both the what I think of the tombs in the Winterfell crypts but also Trystifir Mudd IV, whose lands were at Oldstones. Old stones could be a cairn or cist like field or structure.

I also  came across a couples places with cairns that caught my attention, mostly because of the numbers involved. The first area is near Holne Ridge in Devon, England. This area overlooks the River Dart and is called Dartmoor. It consists of eight stone cairns of different shapes and sizes and another monument of stone. This area also contains three stone crosses called Horn's Cross. But about the cairns and the monument. 

What information I can find states that there are eight cairns, with five lying east of "the monument" and three lying "west" of the monument. These cairns also seem to lie on a ridge in the moorlands that overlooks the River Dart. The idea of five cairns and three cairns lying separated by some type of monument brought to mind the idea's of Ned's fever dream. Eight dead, 5 from the north, 3 from the south. We are also told in Ned's thoughts that he tore the tower down and made eight cairns from the stones, and the cairns were on a ridge, but there is no indication of how the cairns lie.

But I wondered how that might look if there were 5 stone cairns built to one side of what remains of the toj (whatever the heck it was) and 3 built to the opposite side of the toj?

I can find photos if the separate cairn structures from Holne Ridge, but I can't find a good map that gives me an overlook view. And perhaps that doesn't matter, just the symbolism in 5 and 3 with a monument of some sort lying between them on a ridge. 

In reality, the stones cairns at Herne Ridge were probably built over hundreds or thousands of years, and little might remain of the original cairns. Of the five noted to be east of the monument, the north-most two are stacked stone cairns, the middle cairn is a ring cairn, then a round cairn, and the 5th cairn is unspecified in description but has two remaining stones. On the west side of the monument, the three cairns are all a bit different, The first is a stacked cairn, the second is a double circle cairn and the third is a stone mound. Perhaps the differences only apply to when or who built the cairns, but for me, the fact there are eight cairns at this site, five lying to one side, three to the other side, with a monument between them, all on a ridge is really intriguing. I am not sure how far away from this cairn field that the three stone crosses lie, or if they matter to the overall cairns that were built. Two different times and two different religions, no doubt.

Perhaps I am making to much of the numbers, but it seems almost eerily similar to the numbers we are given that seem to define the dead, five of Ned's wraiths and three men in white cloaks and a tower that was probably a meeting point for the two sides.

My information comes from two sites. Ancient Monuments and Historic England

 

Another place I came across the number of eight cairns was in Negev Highlands in Isreal. There were noted to be eight cairns within a settlement, and then approx 100 cairns in a cairn field approx 1 km west of  the settlement. Excavation revealed that most of the eight cairns in the settlement contained remains, while no remains were found in the 100 cairns in the cairn field and it is speculated that the cairns in the field with no remains could have been used for some type of death rituals. The settlement is described as large and was two stories in height.

Information on this can be found in Cairn Burials and Cairn Fields in the Negev

 

ETA I have no idea if any of the above information could apply to GRRM's thought process, but the numbers and structures are rather interesting.

[Frey family reunion]

49 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

That being said, there’s another Marvel timelord that holds equal importance in another comic arc that I am positive George is recycling.   This particular guy, Keeper of the Timestream, Watcher of the Timelines, and a branch relative of the original “Conqueror“, has spent a considerable portion of his existence protecting the timeline from abuse by genetic relatives/members of his own family (so to speak, not getting into that here).    In the arc I’m eyeballing, he breaks from his neutral position to aid the protagonists by foiling another “relative“ trying to force a prophesized outcome...and by foiling the plan, the prophesized outcome comes to pass as it should.

That's interesting.  Mind telling me the story arc?

Also: are you referring to Brynden v. Rhaegar?  If so, then that is certainly a parallel to the Historia Brittonum legends of the White Dragon vs the Red Dragon which are also referenced in the origin tale of Merlin.

[Lady Rhodes]

2 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Why ? It's fine in my opinion.  Myrcella may not even qualify for the throne according to 101. It's a perfect mirror. Myrcella is behind Tommen if at all and only second by dornish interpretation. Trystan is third and only second by not dornish interpretation. 

Literary wise, yes I see it. Politically wise, it makes very little sense. Tyrion is not thinking of it literary, he is supposedly making a political match. So why third son? 

[PrettyPig]

37 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

That's interesting.  Mind telling me the story arc?

Also: are you referring to Brynden v. Rhaegar?  If so, then that is certainly a parallel to the Historia Brittonum legends of the White Dragon vs the Red Dragon which are also referenced in the origin tale of Merlin.

Yeah, more or less...I touch on this character a bit in one of my essays in the HoBaW Marvel forum - 

http://houseofblackandwhite.freeforums.net/thread/412/conqueror-madonna-tree

 no idea if that link will work, stupid phone.   

Anyway, this character, Immortus, is a future version of a guy known as Kang the Conqueror.   As a youth, Kang discovered some prophetic stuff in the family archives and decided it was his destiny to pursue eternal life via time travel.   He built a time machine in the shape of a Sphinx and set about to do exactly that—zip through space and time in various forms/identities/incarnations and conquer every place he went.

Immortus is one of his descendants/forms from a future timeline who ends up as the Lord of Limbo, tutored by a underground faction known as the Time Keepers.    He faces off against the original version of the Conqueror and the Legion of the Unliving, prevents Kang from impregnating the woman prophesied to be the Celestial Madonna, and finally joins in the Destiny War that pits the Avengers against the Time Keepers in a battle for mankind.  

It sounds so stupid to type it out in summary, but it really is cool.  

[Brad Stark]

I've never bought in to magical bloodlines except Targaryens and maybe Starks.  But I do wonder if House Gardener might be opposed to The King's of Winter similar to how the Oak King opposed the Holly King.  

We could also have opposition between the concept of farming and agriculture VS the wilderness nature of the forest. 

Either way, I don't think House Gardener was an arbitrarily choice of names. 

[Frey family reunion]

23 minutes ago, PrettyPig said:

Yeah, more or less...I touch on this character a bit in one of my essays in the HoBaW Marvel forum - 

http://houseofblackandwhite.freeforums.net/thread/412/conqueror-madonna-tree

 no idea if that link will work, stupid phone.   

Anyway, this character, Immortus, is a future version of a guy known as Kang the Conqueror.   As a youth, Kang discovered some prophetic stuff in the family archives and decided it was his destiny to pursue eternal life via time travel.   He built a time machine in the shape of a Sphinx and set about to do exactly that—zip through space and time in various forms/identities/incarnations and conquer every place he went.

Immortus is one of his descendants/forms from a future timeline who ends up as the Lord of Limbo, tutored by a underground faction known as the Time Keepers.    He faces off against the original version of the Conqueror and the Legion of the Unliving, prevents Kang from impregnating the woman prophesied to be the Celestial Madonna, and finally joins in the Destiny War that pits the Avengers against the Time Keepers in a battle for mankind.  

It sounds so stupid to type it out in summary, but it really is cool.  

I think I'm familiar with the arc, it was a Steve Englehart Avengers storyline, that I don't think I've ever gotten around to reading.

Interesting.  I haven't read your theory yet but try this one out for size:  Brynden gets Howland through the Greenmen to foil Rhaegar's tower of joy, however, all of the potential sacrifices (the windblown) still end up fulfilling their roles that Rhaegar envisioned when he was preparing the tower of joy scenario.

[Melifeather]

16 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Brynden gets Howland through the Greenmen to foil Rhaegar's tower of joy, however, all of the potential sacrifices (the windblown) still end up fulfilling their roles that Rhaegar envisioned when he was preparing the tower of joy scenario.

I can see something like this. Rhaegar was obsessed with prophecy and was trying to force something to happen. Howland must have been the one that wanted to stop him, and so prayed for a way "to win". Bloodraven starts things, but doesn't think he's strong enough to see it through so he gets Bran to finish his work.