Heresy 212 The Wolves

[JNR]

16 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I actually disagree with this, because of Jon's dream. Jon had a dream that he was Ghost.

What I'm saying is:

1. The direwolves can sense each other over vast distances -- they know how many of the others are alive, and in Ghost's case, he knows when Summer is alive, yet undetectable because of the Wall. 

Ghost somehow even knows that Nymeria is now part of a huge pack:

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In another place, his little sister lifted her head to sing to the moon, and a hundred small grey cousins broke off their hunt to sing with her.

2. In constrast, the Stark kids cannot sense each other -- at all.  They do not instinctively know how many of the other Stark kids are alive, and indeed, they are fooled into believing some of the others are dead, when in fact they aren't dead. 

Here's Sansa:

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She never thought to have a claim, but with Bran and Rickon dead

Here's Robb:

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Father's dead, and Bran and Rickon, maybe Arya.

So clearly the direwolves have a special psychic power that the Stark kids lack.  It did not come from the Starks in any sense, but was innate to them.

[JNR]

3 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

 It just shows Jojen isn't omniscient.  Nothing he does see is wrong or interpreted wrong, he just doesn't see everything. 

And hence, if the direwolves have a similar foresight, it too is not comprehensive. 

So we can't look at Grey Wind failing to howl at the Twins and conclude there's no foresight.  It may be that Grey Wind just doesn't see everything.

[Frey family reunion]

52 minutes ago, JNR said:

Well, it's hard to say this with any confidence, because foreknowledge in ASOIAF is such a fuzzy matter.

We all take it on faith that Jojen's greendreams are real, right?  Yet Jojen...

1. Fails to anticipate the wildlings at Queenscrown

2. Fails to know where the gate is, at the Nightfort -- only that it's there

3. Fails to anticipate Sam coming up the well in the night

4. Fails to anticipate the wight attack at the cave, a particularly dangerous situation

5. Fails to realize they will desperately need food north of the Wall, and collect and bring dried nuts, etc.

Does this stuff, and more like it, invalidate the greendreams?  Does it mean Jojen can't see the future?  I wouldn't say so.  It just shows prophecy is unpredictable and fuzzy.

But since I've never cited Grey Wind at the Twins as a clear instance of foreknowledge, this doesn't particularly bother me.  I consider that only one possible instance.

We can also look at Ghost's behavior the day Jon is killed:

Is all this really about the boar? 

Is it that Ghost is somehow able to sense treachery in the air, even though he's shut away in the armory, and he isn't around any of the Watch? Well, maybe... maybe not.

Well, after the attack, Ghost has no problem going onto the Fist, and he does, with Jon and Ygritte.  So it can't just be the location.  The timing also seems relevant.

There seems to be differing levels of psychic ability with the Stark kids, so it wouldn't surprise me that there may also be differing levels of psychic ability with the direwolves. 

I think Greywind's reaction at the Twins can be more easily explained, that he picked up on the murderous intentions of the Freys that they came into contact with as opposed to having a foreshadowing of the events of the Twins, and then putting two and two together when he eyeballed some of the participants.  But I agree that we can't count out either possibility.

But I do think that Ghost's red eyes may be more than just a presentation of his albinism.  It may be a parallel to COTF greenseers who often exhibit red or green eyes.  So Ghost's abilities may extend to Green Dreams as well.  Probably the most significant telepathic communication we've seen so far is Bran entering Jon's wolf dream at the Frostfangs.  And it appears that Bran contacted Jon through Ghost.

As for the Fist, you may be right.  But just keep in mind that Ghost wasn't the only one who sensed something was amiss.  Jon is of the belief that Sam's ravens were sensing something amiss, and even Dywen the Ranger picked up a "cold smell" in the forest.  So was it a precognitive vision?  Or was there a malevolent presence in or around the Fist that was being sensed?

It also appeared that Ghost was having an issue with something around the boundary of the Fist itself.  This calls to mind the magical wards at Storm's End or the Watch, which Melisandre (another white skinned red eyed being) was able to sense.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

It just shows Jojen isn't omniscient.  Nothing he does see is wrong or interpreted wrong, he just doesn't see everything. 

No, Jojen does make mistakes.  He wrongly interprets his green dream of Ramsay Snow killing Bran and Rickon:

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"Did you see me in a green dream?" he asked Jojen nervously. "Was I drowned?"

"Not drowned." Jojen spoke as if every word pained him. "I dreamed of the man who came today, the one they call Reek. You and your brother lay dead at his feet, and he was skinning off your faces with a long red blade."

Meera rose to her feet. "If I went to the dungeon, I could drive a spear right through his heart. How could he murder Bran if he was dead?"

"The gaolers will stop you," Jojen said. "The guards. And if you tell them why you want him dead, they'll never believe."

"I have guards too," Bran reminded them. "Alebelly and Poxy Tim and Hayhead and the rest."

Jojen's mossy eyes were full of pity. "They won't be able to stop him, Bran. I couldn't see why, but I saw the end of it. I saw you and Rickon in your crypts, down in the dark with all the dead kings and their stone wolves."

No, Bran thought. No. "If I went away... to Greywater, or to the crow, someplace far where they couldn't find me…”

"It will not matter. The dream was green, Bran, and the green dreams do not lie."

(2.37 -- BRAN)

 

Or maybe that's just a POV issue?  For many - most - in Westeros, Bran and Rickon are dead:

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"The world believes the boy is dead," [Coldhands] had said as they parted. "Let his bones lie undisturbed. We want no seekers coming after us. Swear it, Samwell of the Night's Watch. Swear it for the life you owe me."

(3.75 -- SAMWELL)

 

Either way... Jojen doesn't get it.  At least not prior to seeing the events play out.

[St Daga]

2 hours ago, JNR said:

On 8/16/2018 at 9:44 AM, St Daga said:

I am not sure how any of this proves that Bran was a constant climber before his fall.

I think the evidence is mighty strong.

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His mother was terrified that one day Bran would slip off a wall and kill himself.

This means Bran's climbing is ongoing, not some sort of one-time or occasional thing.

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Once she made him promise that he would stay on the ground. He had managed to keep that promise for almost a fortnight, miserable every day

This means his desire to climb was powerful, and had to be denied, almost like a junkie going cold turkey.  Again we have the sense that under normal circumstances he would constantly climb.

I don't doubt he climbed, but I don't know if I think it was every day, or every hour of every day. If you have a beer once a week, but someone tells you that you can't have one ever again, you might feel like the next two weeks is miserable, just a based on wanting to have something you are told you can't have, even if you didn't have that thing very often. It's a possibility that Bran climbed frequently, but not constantly. The text never says constant, and constant means, at least to me, that he is climbing unless he is eating or sleeping. Perhaps I am being too literal with the definition of constant!

 

2 hours ago, JNR said:

This demonstrates Bran's deep experience.  He didn't just climb constantly all over the place... he actually found different routes of climbing to a particular place, just for the hell of it.  Reminds me of how mountain climbers will choose to ascend a particular face in a particular season, knowing it will be harder or easier.

Seems to me Bran's strong interest in and experience of climbing is among the best-established traits of any character in the first half of AGOT.

Is this Bran's deep experience?  On some level it could be interpreted that way, and perhaps that is what GRRM intended. But it is also possible that Bran has the memories or experiences of someone else that seem to be part of his own memories or experiences. If Bran is every Brandon and they are all connected on some cosmic level, then it's possible that some of these memories or feelings don't belong to our Bran, but are part of the other Brandon's that have come before him. But they feel like they are his own knowledge or experience.

Before his fall, Bran talks about things he has dreamed of. With the first mention of dreams, he seems to be referring to his wish to be a knight, but I question if he has had dreams for a long part of his life. And if so, what was the content of the dreams? In his third chapter, he tells us that "even in dreams, you could not fall forever" which hints to me that Bran has not only had dreams about climbing, but of falling, long before his fall. Enough that he is aware of this experience. he has asked someone about it and been given knowledge, or he knows for himself that in dreams you don't hit the ground.

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Even in dreams, you could not fall forever. He would wake up in the instant before he hit the ground, he knew. You always woke up in the instant before you hit the ground. AGOT-Bran III

So, it seems to me if Bran can have dreams about falling, then he could also have dreams about climbing, as well. Dreams that have helped him know the routes and patterns that help him climb in Winterfell.

I am not arguing that Bran is a climber. It's apparent from the text that he does climb, but I am questioning the frequency of his climbing, and if it's possible that day that he climbed the sentinel tree was the first time that Summer, the yet unnamed direwolf, had witnessed Bran's climbing before. It is possible that Summer did see this before, and if so, it does hint that Summer has some sort of precognitive knowledge about what was going to occur? Or this climb was different because the Lannister's were involved? Did Summer try to stop Bran from climbing that day? Or did Summer encourage the climb, because Bran needed to fall? There are several possibilities that I can see, and I just like to look at the different options without a specific conclusion in mind.

 

[St Daga]

38 minutes ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

It just shows Jojen isn't omniscient.  Nothing he does see is wrong or interpreted wrong, he just doesn't see everything. 

No, Jojen does make mistakes.  He wrongly interprets his green dream of Ramsay Snow killing Bran and Rickon:

I have wondered if there are ripples in time in this story, or in regards to the possibility of changing the present in the past, (pardon the Back to the Future vibe) but that at one time, Bran and Rickon were killed by Theon, but in this ripple in time, Bran and Rickon lived but the miller's son's died in their place.

Or, all Jojen saw was the image of two burned bodies hanging in Winterfell and misinterpreted what he saw, much like Melisandre does with her visions. So, his vision could be correct but he can't interpret the imagery.

I doubt a greenseer can see everything, but it does hint to me that these seer's are only allowed to see certain visions, or have only been sent certain visions. The Ghost of High Heart seems to understand possible limitations in interpretation. She never interprets, she just informs of what she sees! Her strongest emotional reaction is to Arya, and not to her terrible visions. Those seem worth nothing more than a song, a kiss and some wine, whereas Mel tries to use the knowledge that she get's to change things. Jojen, too! With interpretation comes the risk of error! Perhaps tGoHH learned this the hard way and no longer attempts to interpret?

 

[Brad Stark]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

What I'm saying is:

1. The direwolves can sense each other over vast distances -- they know how many of the others are alive, and in Ghost's case, he knows when Summer is alive, yet undetectable because of the Wall. 

Ghost somehow even knows that Nymeria is now part of a huge pack:

2. In constrast, the Stark kids cannot sense each other -- at all.  They do not instinctively know how many of the other Stark kids are alive, and indeed, they are fooled into believing some of the others are dead, when in fact they aren't dead. 

Jon and Bran seem to have this connection to some extent. 

[Brad Stark]

I was looking for an SSM where someone asked "If Lady is dead, does that mean Sansa is no longer a Stark?"  And GRRM answered "Very observant of you".  Anyone have this? 

[SirArthur]

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Category/C92/P210

 

ARCHON MEETING (OCTOBER 5-7)

In regards to the conversation about the dire wolves and the Starks the point was made (I forget by whom) that Lady was dead and Sansa still alive to which I replied that Sansa wasn't really much of a Stark anymore. IIRC (this is a little hazy), at this point GRRM kind of leaned back in his chair, smiled and said something to the effect of "A very astute observation." (Note: I was hoping someone else would bring this up as I didn't want to do any hornblowing... since Terra brought it up, but didn't recall the wording I felt the need. If anyone remembers his words differently I'll gladly recant.)

[Brad Stark]

Does the Stark/Wolf connection come from the Warg King?  The Starks killed him, his beasts and greenseers, but married his daughters.  If he either had magic in his blood, or was owed something (such as the wolves) the Starks may have inherited this.  Also, if he was that powerful, with wolves and other beasts and greenseers and Children, how did the Starks kill him?  Wouldn't he be more powerful? 

[Brad Stark]

SSM

In regards to the conversation about the dire wolves and the Starks the point was made (I forget by whom) that Lady was dead and Sansa still alive to which I replied that Sansa wasn't really much of a Stark anymore. IIRC (this is a little hazy), at this point GRRM kind of leaned back in his chair, smiled and said something to the effect of "A very astute observation." 

[Melifeather]

Double post

[Melifeather]

Deleted

[Melifeather]

21 hours ago, JNR said:

What I'm saying is:

1. The direwolves can sense each other over vast distances -- they know how many of the others are alive, and in Ghost's case, he knows when Summer is alive, yet undetectable because of the Wall. 

Ghost somehow even knows that Nymeria is now part of a huge pack:

2. In constrast, the Stark kids cannot sense each other -- at all.  They do not instinctively know how many of the other Stark kids are alive, and indeed, they are fooled into believing some of the others are dead, when in fact they aren't dead. 

Here's Sansa:

Here's Robb:

So clearly the direwolves have a special psychic power that the Stark kids lack.  It did not come from the Starks in any sense, but was innate to them.

Not so.  The passage you’re referring to is Jon dreaming again. Here it is:

  The white wolf raced through a black wood, beneath a pale cliff as tall as the sky. The moon ran with him, slipping through a tangle of bare branches overhead, across the starry sky.

  “Snow,” the moon murmured. The wolf made no answer. Snow crunched beneath his paws. The wind sighed through the trees.

  Far off, he could hear his packmates calling to him, like to like. They were hunting too. A wild rain lashed down upon his black brother as he tore at the flesh of an enormous goat, washing the blood from his side where the goat’s long horn had raked him. In another place, his little sister lifted her head to sing to the moon, and a hundred small grey cousins broke off their hunt to sing with her. The hills were warmer where they were, and full of food. Many a night his sister’s pack gorged on the flesh of sheep and cows and horses, the prey of men, and sometimes even on the flesh of man himself.

  “Snow,” the moon called down again, cackling. The white wolf padded along the man trail beneath the icy cliff. The taste of blood was on his tongue, and his ears rang to the song of the hundred cousins. Once they had been six, five whimpering blind in the snow beside their dead mother, sucking cool milk from her hard dead nipples whilst he crawled off alone. Four remained … and one the white wolf could no longer sense.

  “Snow,” the moon insisted.

  The white wolf ran from it, racing toward the cave of night where the sun had hidden, his breath frosting in the air. On starless nights the great cliff was as black as stone, a darkness towering high above the wide world, but when the moon came out it shimmered pale and icy as a frozen stream. The wolf’s pelt was thick and shaggy, but when the wind blew along the ice no fur could keep the chill out. On the other side the wind was colder still, the wolf sensed. That was where his brother was, the grey brother who smelled of summer.

  “Snow.” An icicle tumbled from a branch. The white wolf turned and bared his teeth. “Snow!” His fur rose bristling, as the woods dissolved around him. “Snow, snow, snow!” He heard the beat of wings. Through the gloom a raven flew.

  It landed on Jon Snow’s chest with a thump and a scrabbling of claws. “SNOW!” it screamed into his face.

  “I hear you.” The room was dim, his pallet hard. Grey light leaked through the shutters,...

[Brad Stark]

Whether this is Ghost's point of view, or Jon's point of view dreaming of being ghost, it seems clear he can sense the other wolves, and distinguish between Lady being dead and Summer being unable to sense but alive.  We aren't explicitly told this is magic or psychic, but that seems more likely than simply an exceptional sense of long range smell.  We assume all the wolves have this ability but aren't told that either. 

I argue the connection between Bran and Jon is similar, but the wolves seem stronger, and it may be the wolves imparting this ability on the Starks, rather than the other way around. 

[Melifeather]

42 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Whether this is Ghost's point of view, or Jon's point of view dreaming of being ghost, it seems clear he can sense the other wolves, and distinguish between Lady being dead and Summer being unable to sense but alive.  We aren't explicitly told this is magic or psychic, but that seems more likely than simply an exceptional sense of long range smell.  We assume all the wolves have this ability but aren't told that either. 

I argue the connection between Bran and Jon is similar, but the wolves seem stronger, and it may be the wolves imparting this ability on the Starks, rather than the other way around. 

This passage is not about Ghost and the other dire wolves. It’s about Jon and his half-siblings. Rickon has killed a “goat”, but it’s implied it’s a man, just as Vargo Hoat is nicknamed The Goat. The wolf howling at the moon is Arya at the House of Black and White. The sheep, cows, and horses are the people that come to HOBAW willingly who the Kindly Man and all the Faceless Men prey on. The one he cannot sense is Robb, because he’s dead. This dream occurs in Dance after Robb and Grey Wind are dead, so the “four left” are Sansa, Arya, Bran, and Rickon. The one that smells like summer is the sweet summer child called Bran.

[St Daga]

14 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

This passage is not about Ghost and the other dire wolves. It’s about Jon and his half-siblings. Rickon has killed a “goat”, but it’s implied it’s a man, just as Vargo Hoat is nicknamed The Goat. The wolf howling at the moon is Arya at the House of Black and White. The sheep, cows, and horses are the people that come to HOBAW willingly who the Kindly Man and all the Faceless Men prey on. The one he cannot sense is Robb, because he’s dead. This dream occurs in Dance after Robb and Grey Wind are dead, so the “four left” are Sansa, Arya, Bran, and Rickon. The one that smells like summer is the sweet summer child called Bran.

It's a matter of interpretation how a person see's this dream passage. It's certainly not clear that it's Jon dreaming of his siblings, it seems more likely to me that it is Ghost's dream that Jon is along for the ride for. And it's possible that GRRM has written this passage in a vague matter that leaves it open to interpretation and there will never be a certain answer on the dreams source. 

[Melifeather]

30 minutes ago, St Daga said:

It's a matter of interpretation how a person see's this dream passage. It's certainly not clear that it's Jon dreaming of his siblings, it seems more likely to me that it is Ghost's dream that Jon is along for the ride for. And it's possible that GRRM has written this passage in a vague matter that leaves it open to interpretation and there will never be a certain answer on the dreams source. 

If it’s Ghost, he should only be able to sense three other wolves. The passage said, four remained and one he could no longer sense. Many people assume the one not sensed is Lady, or some interpret Summer, but Grey Wind is also dead. Four plus one equals five. Jon, Sansa, Arya, Bran, and Rickon makes five, but Ghost, Nymeria, Shaggy Dog, and Summer only make four. 

[PrettyPig]

I'm really intrigued by Ghost's relationship with/reaction to the moon in that passage.    In mythology, wolves are companions to the moon goddess and typically have a special connection to the moon.    Nymeria even pays homage to it by singing in that excerpt, but Ghost seems to be experiencing something different, something more sinister - the moon is chasing him, cackling, and he is trying to escape from it.

Wolves are also associated with winter, thought to be winter's children (like the Starks), yet again, Ghost doesn't seem to have any big love for the cold either.  Interesting. 

 

[Matthew.]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

If it’s Ghost, he should only be able to sense three other wolves. The passage said, four remained and one he could no longer sense. Many people assume the one not sensed is Lady, or some interpret Summer, but Grey Wind is also dead. Four plus one equals five. Jon, Sansa, Arya, Bran, and Rickon makes five, but Ghost, Nymeria, Shaggy Dog, and Summer only make four. 

To quote:

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Once they had been six, five whimpering blind in the snow beside their dead mother, sucking cool milk from her hard dead nipples whilst he crawled off alone. Four remained … and one the white wolf could no longer sense.
 

Not even the most generous of symbolic readings should lead one to conclude that the former passage refers to anyone other than Ghost, and the passage is to be read as being from Ghost's perspective; of course, where the Stark thoughts end and direwolf thoughts begin is one of the underlying elements of skinchanging - and one of the things Bran is warned against - but the passage is still more Ghost than Jon.

Once they were six, and now only four of the six remain--and one of the remaining four, Ghost can no longer sense. This is most commonly read as the Wall disrupting Ghost's ability to perceive Summer, and I would be inclined to agree with that interpretation: it fits with the Wall being an extraordinarily powerful ward, and we might follow on that speculation by suggesting that Bran-as-Greenseer can bypass the wards in Bran III ADWD either because the weirwood roots run underneath the Wall, or because his passage through the Black Gate was magically significant.