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Alexis-something-Rose

Elia Martell: Yes, another Septa Lemore speculation

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7 minutes ago, Seams said:

This was a trial by combat. Gregor winning is supposedly proof of his innocence.

Small point, but the trial was called to test Tyrion's innocence or guilt, not Gregor's. Gregor was the champion, not the accused, for all Oberyn was heckling him.

The 'Gods' deciding to condemn Tyrion falsely just to show Gregor was innocent of a totally separate crime 15 years earlier doesn't gel for me, I'm afraid. To me it's just another instance of 'might making right' in Westeros, which parallels our own world where justice is freely open to all who can afford it.... ;)

But, I do agree there's something there with Rhaegar having dubbed Gregor

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47 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

I haven't thought it through yet, or looked for any clues, but we have to wonder - if Lemore is Elia - what her reaction would be to Tyrion's role in getting him killed? Yes, on one hand, Tyrion got him killed, on the other, he also provided the platform to accuse Gregor and seek vengeance....

Yep, that whole river journey needs re-reading now ;)

We know that Illyrio sent Griff a letter in which he finds out who Tyrion and Tywin's death by his hand. When Tyrion asks to read the letter, Griff burns it. We don't know what was contained in the letter, though it's possible that Oberyn's death might have been included. And we don't know if he shared the contents with Lemore. 

16 minutes ago, Seams said:

I think Rhaegar knighting Gregor is significant. As far as I can recall, Ser Gregor is the only knight made by Rhaegar. Knights don't forget who knighted them and there is a strong bond.

He knighted Myles Mooton and Richard Lonmouth and apparently many others according to Barristan, so Gregor Clegane may not be anything out of the ordinary and I think there's some kind of a fuck up with that timeline. Rhaegar may have been asked to do it as a favor and he obliged.

That said, I completely disagree that Clegane or Tywin were in on this. Tywin married Cersei off to Robert. Aegon would have been a threat to his grandsons and this Lannister era he had been feverishly planning for.

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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Wouldn't Tyrion recognise princess Elia? Martells are salty Dornishmen, they look like Italians, or Spaniards - honey or caramel colored skin, dark hair (black or brown), and dark eyes. Septa Lemore doesn't look like a Dornishwoman.

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If Elia was alive I think Jon Con would have sent her to Doran as soon as they landed. That way they'd get their spears much faster and easier then waiting for Arianne to come and convince her then have her sent a raven back to Dorne. If Tyrion couldn't figure out that Lemore was in some way related to Oberyn then I doubt Arianne would be able to verify that Elia is her aunt. The best way would be for Elia to travel to Dorne with guards instead of Arianne traveling to the Golden Company. People think Elia is dead, they know Arianne is alive.

Edited by Ralphis Baratheon

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17 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Wouldn't Tyrion recognise princess Elia? Martells are salty Dornishmen, they look like Italians, or Spaniards - honey or caramel colored skin, dark hair (black or brown), and dark eyes. Septa Lemore doesn't look like a Dornishwoman.

We are given Elia's eye color in the text, so the assumption is that she must look like her brother. Yet, Arianne and Quentyn who are full siblings look nothing alike. And if Quentyn and Doran look alike, then Doran doesn't really look like Oberyn. 

We are given one physical description for Lemore, and that's her hair color, though Tyrion does say her skin glows golden in the morning light. 

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As cool as I think it would be if GRRM was somehow able to pull off the survival of Elia Martell, I believe she is dead like we are told she is. AeGriff says: "Varys gave the Pisswater boy to my lady mother and carried me away," which tells us that he believes Elia was left behind to be killed with the Pisswater boy.

The lad flushed. "That was not me. I told you. That was some tanner's son from Pisswater Bend whose mother died birthing him. His father sold him to Lord Varys for a jug of Arbor gold. He had other sons but had never tasted Arbor gold. Varys gave the Pisswater boy to my lady mother and carried me away." (ADWD: Tyrion VI)

There would be no good reason to continue leading AeGriff to believe that Elia had been killed when she was really living with him and teaching him all these years under the guise of Septa Lemore. Nor would there be a good reason not to reveal her to the Golden Company when revealing AeGriff as Aegon.

I think it is most likely that AeGriff was descended from Daemon Blackfyre through a female line. I wouldn't be surprised if this is even alluded to by the cover story he has been given, of his mother being a lady of Tyrosh.

It was Rohanne of Tyrosh, daughter of the Archon of Tyrosh, who wed Daemon Blackfyre in 184 AC and gave him seven sons and daughters.

It was to Tyrosh, their mother's home, that the surviving sons of Daemon Blackfyre fled with Bittersteel after the failure of the First Blackfyre Rebellion in 196 AC.

It was presumably from Tyrosh that Daemon Blackfyre's third and eldest surviving son Daemon II crossed the narrow sea from in 211 AC.

It was presumably from Tyrosh that Daemon Blackfyre's fourth and eldest surviving son Haegon I and Bittersteel set off from to launch the Third Blackfyre Rebellion in 219 AC.

It was in Tyrosh that the escaped Bittersteel crowned Haegon's eldest son as Daemon III before the year was out in 219 AC.

It was from Tyrosh that Daemon Blackfyre's fifth and eldest surviving son Aenys wrote to put forth his case for the Great Council in 233 AC.

It was presumably from Tyrosh that Daemon III, who had been crowned in 219 AC, and Bittersteel set off from to launch the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion in 236 AC.

Tyrosh was the home of the wife of Daemon Blackfyre, the mother of all Daemon Blackfyre's descendants, and appears to have operated as their home in exile for forty years after the defeat of the First Blackfyre Rebellion in 196 AC.

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8 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

There would be no good reason to continue leading AeGriff to believe that Elia had been killed when she was really living with him and teaching him all these years under the guise of Septa Lemore. Nor would there be a good reason not to reveal her to the Golden Company when revealing AeGriff as Aegon.

That would be the best argument against Lemore being Elia - if Griff and co can raise the boy believing himself to be Aegon, why not allow him to know that Lemore was his mother? Seems unnecessarily cruel - on both of them.

Also we have JonCon's thoughts:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - The Lost Lord

"As you say," she answered, unhappily.

So be it. He had grown fond of Lemore, but that did not mean he required her approval. Her task had been to instruct the prince in the doctrines of the Faith, and she had done that. No amount of prayer would put him on the Iron Throne, however. That was Griff's task. He had failed Prince Rhaegar once. He would not fail his son, not whilst life remained in his body.

 

But, on the 'subtle clue in the text' side of the argument (which I normally dismiss as coincidence... ;)), there are a few more bits:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion IV

To the east, the first pale light of day suffused the sky above the river. The waters of the Rhoyne slowly went from black to blue, to match the sellsword's hair and beard. Griff got to his feet. "The others should wake soon. The deck is yours." As the nightingales fell silent, the river larks took up their song. Egrets splashed amongst the reeds and left their tracks across the sandbars. The clouds in the sky were aglow: pink and purple, maroon and gold, pearl and saffron. One looked like a dragon. Once a man has seen a dragon in flight, let him stay at home and tend his garden in content, someone had written once, for this wide world has no greater wonder. Tyrion scratched at his scar and tried to recall the author's name. Dragons had been much in his thoughts of late.

"Good morrow, Hugor." Septa Lemore had emerged in her white robes, cinched at the waist with a woven belt of seven colors. Her hair flowed loose about her shoulders. "How did you sleep?"

"Fitfully, good lady. I dreamed of you again." A waking dream. He could not sleep, so he had eased a hand between his legs and imagined the septa atop him, breasts bouncing.

<<Snip>>

"The Mother and the Father made us in their image, Hugor. We should glory in our bodies, for they are the work of gods."

The gods must have been drunk when they got to me. The dwarf watched Lemore slip into the water. The sight always made him hard. There was something wonderfully wicked about the thought of peeling the septa out of those chaste white robes and spreading her legs. Innocence despoiled, he thought … though Lemore was not near as innocent as she appeared. She had stretch marks on her belly that could only have come from childbirth.

Yandry and Ysilla had risen with the sun and were going about their business. Yandry stole a glance at Septa Lemore from time to time as he was checking the lines. His small dark wife, Ysilla, took no notice. She fed some wood chips to the brazier on the afterdeck, stirred the coals with a blackened blade, and began to knead the dough for the morning biscuits.

When Lemore climbed back onto the deck, Tyrion savored the sight of water trickling between her breasts, her smooth skin glowing golden in the morning light. She was past forty, more handsome than pretty, but still easy on the eye. Being randy is the next best thing to being drunk, he decided. It made him feel as if he was still alive. "Did you see the turtle, Hugor?" the septa asked him, wringing water from her hair. "The big ridgeback?"

The early morning was the best time for seeing turtles. During the day they would swim down deep, or hide in cuts along the banks, but when the sun was newly risen they came to the surface. Some liked to swim beside the boat. Tyrion had glimpsed a dozen different sorts: large turtles and small ones, flatbacks and red-ears, softshells and bonesnappers, brown turtles, green turtles, black turtles, clawed turtles and horned turtles, turtles whose ridged and patterned shells were covered with whorls of gold and jade and cream. Some were so large they could have borne a man upon their backs. Yandry swore the Rhoynar princes used to ride them across the river. He and his wife were Greenblood born, a pair of Dornish orphans come home to Mother Rhoyne.

<<snip>>

 

"I missed the ridgeback." I was watching the naked woman.

"I am sad for you." Lemore slipped her robe over her head. "I know you only rise so early in hopes of seeing turtles."

"I like to watch the sun come up as well." It was like watching a maiden rising naked from her bath. Some might be prettier than others, but every one was full of promise. "The turtles have their charms, I will allow. Nothing delights me so much as the sight of a nice pair of shapely … shells."

Septa Lemore laughed. Like everyone else aboard the Shy Maid, she had her secrets. She was welcome to them. I do not want to know her, I only want to fuck her. She knew it too. As she hung her septa's crystal about her neck, to nestle in the cleft between her breasts, she teased him with a smile.

So, Tyrion, had been thinking of dragons, and Lemore appears. He says he dreamed of her - he dreams of dragons as much as he thinks of them... Elia is a 'mother of dragons' in her own way...

'Risen with the sun' as Y&Y were said to have done, could mean just getting out of bed at dawn; or possibly rebelling alongside House Martell...

Then that bit about 'the sun' rising like a maiden, naked from her bath. Throw in the turtles (Freudian breasts, or just a mocking reference? :dunno:) which come to the surface when the sun is newly risen, and it does all begin to look a bit like 'Lemore laid bare is a sun'.

But as I said, all this sort of thinking usually leaves me cold, so don't know why I'm dredging it up now :D

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1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

There would be no good reason to continue leading AeGriff to believe that Elia had been killed when she was really living with him and teaching him all these years under the guise of Septa Lemore. Nor would there be a good reason not to reveal her to the Golden Company when revealing AeGriff as Aegon.

There's absolutely nothing that says that Young Griff doesn't know the real identity of Lemore. He knew Griff's true identity. Why wouldn't he know Lemore?

38 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

So be it. He had grown fond of Lemore, but that did not mean he required her approval. Her task had been to instruct the prince in the doctrines of the Faith, and she had done that. No amount of prayer would put him on the Iron Throne, however. That was Griff's task. He had failed Prince Rhaegar once. He would not fail his son, not whilst life remained in his body.

About this quote from the text, people on the boat all have their tasks. Haldon's task was to teach Young Griff everything a maester would teach a child of high birth and then some. Duck was brought in when the boy reached the age to learn how to fight and Septa Lemore taught him the doctrines of the Faith. 

But look at Lemore's behavior with Tyrion. After he is fished out, she is the one who saves him by giving him CPR, not Haldon Halfmaester. And she is the one who bathes him in vinegar, not Haldon. Her behavior is that of a mother.

Lemore's main task was to teach Young Griff religion, but I'm assuming she also mothered the boy and kissed his boo-boos away. Maybe they tasked her with overseeing Young Griff's religious education because she didn't want to leave the boy's side when the time came for him to embark on this journey.

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6 hours ago, Davjos said:

If  the body double is not that convincing, they had to be in collusion with Gregor to get the body’s mutilated enough to be beyond recognition. If the body double of both Aegon and Elia is that convincing that the mutilation was not necessary, they arranged that spectacularly quick.

This. I is hard to believe that Gregor helped Elia and Aegon to escape. If he didn't, recognition of dead bodies was  left to a chance. On the other hand, the possibility that body doubles were just left to die, depicts Elia and her supporters in most awful way.

Maybe we can look at the situation considering that all players acted on their own motives each and didn't just follow scenario of one person.

Elia's and Aegon's doubles were not supposed to die, they were left only with intention to delay pursuers.   Lannister soldiers probably didn't know how exactly Elia looked. Elia's supporters expected soldiers  to bring fake Elia and Aegon to Tywin or his generals, thus giving Elia time to escape.

But they underestimated Tywin, who was cat of different coat. Tywin just simply ordered to kill Rhaegar's children. When he was talking to Tyrion he admitted that with ease, but he didn't admit he ordered to kill Elia too.

Gregor went on his task. Elia's double in face of death revealed the truth to him. What Gregor did? Gregor was a simple person. He just crushed her head that nobody would know about the swap, Tywin in the first place. Thus he completed Tywin's task. Tywin and Robert Baratheon were content.

Maybe, only maybe, it was Gregor's some strange and tiny tiny expression of loyalty to Rhaegar, who knighted him. By killing doubles he gave Elia chance to escape. Of course, he didn't cared about some baseborn woman and child. Remember how his more scrupulous brother killed Mycah.

I see this as possibility to explain why Elia and Aegon were unrecognizable, but it doesn't explain why Elia left Rhaenys. And why she never contacted Doran and especially Oberyn, who was told to be very close to her.

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1 hour ago, Rufus Snow said:

Then that bit about 'the sun' rising like a maiden, naked from her bath. Throw in the turtles (Freudian breasts, or just a mocking reference? :dunno:) which come to the surface when the sun is newly risen, and it does all begin to look a bit like 'Lemore laid bare is a sun'.

But as I said, all this sort of thinking usually leaves me cold, so don't know why I'm dredging it up now :D

She is a "shy" maid on board the "Shy Maid" showing all her secrets. ;) Yet everyone on board has his secrets. :D

Btw. Tyrion was suggested to Elia in marriage. 

 

Edited by SirArthur

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2 hours ago, Seams said:

regular swimming enjoyed by Dornish children at the water garden, Lemore does seem like a likely candidate for a disguised Elia. I believe she would gain strength from daily swims in the Rhoyne.

 

3 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Also, this might go a long way towards explaining why Lemore is so comfortable flashing all her bits to Tyrion, as well. Not the least being that the Dornish are notably less inhibited than other Westerosi, Elia would have spent her childhood at the Watergardens

I think these daily swims probably are so far the most revealing clues about Lemore's past. Neither highborn ladies nor septas are usually trained in swimming. Most of the westerosi women would be afraid to dive in to the current of the river as mighty as mother Rhoyne.

Septa Lemore probably learned to swim in her childhood. Maybe she lived by some big river,  or maybe she played in Water Gardens.

And yes, her freedom and confidence also point to Dorne.

But she doesn't necessary be princess Elia, she could be one of her childhood friends, maybe daughter of servant. The one who could even become real septa eventually. I don't think Ashara is Lemore, but Ashara could spent her childhood in water pools as well.

 

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48 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

There's absolutely nothing that says that Young Griff doesn't know the real identity of Lemore. He knew Griff's true identity. Why wouldn't he know Lemore?

I didn't say or imply that AeGriff doesn't know the real identity of Lemore. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't.

What seems clear is that AeGriff believes the child whose brains were dashed out against a wall were those of some tanner's son from Pisswater Bend that Varys gave to his lady mother (Elia) before Varys carried him (AeGriff) away. In other words, that his mother (Elia) remained with the feigned Aegon, and that they met their ends as they are known to have.

By that conversation, Tyrion had already deduced that AeGriff was being claimed to be Rhaegar's son Aegon, or else won that knowledge in his game against Haldon. And whatever the case, AeGriff was openly acknowledging and speaking about his claimed identity. At that point there's no reason to keep paying lip service to a fake story about his mother's death.

Edited by Bael's Bastard

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1 hour ago, Rufus Snow said:

Her task had been to instruct the prince in the doctrines of the Faith, and she had done that.

If Elia is alive, then for Lord Connington to relegate her role to that of a religious instructor seems like an incredible overreach of power in trying to limit a mother’s relationship to her son. Would he really think that of Elia? I don’t think so.

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47 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I didn't say or imply that AeGriff doesn't know the real identity of Lemore. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't.

You have my apologies. I misunderstood what you meant. 

48 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

By that conversation, Tyrion had already deduced that AeGriff was being claimed to be Rhaegar's son Aegon, or else won that knowledge in his game against Haldon. And whatever the case, AeGriff was openly acknowledging and speaking about his claimed identity. At that point there's no reason to keep paying lip service to a fake story about his mother's death.

Maybe there is and maybe there isn't. If Elia is alive, then she becomes important. Maybe they are still paying lip service to the story because they have not met all their objectives yet, and their plans kept changing. They were supposed to meet Dany in Volantis, where I imagine Griff, Young Griff, Lemore were going to reveal their true identities. Then they were going to go to Meereen, where I imagine they would have done what they were planning on doing in Volantis. And now they are in Westeros. 

But I think this line is significant;

"I grant you, it was done brutally. Elia need not have been harmed at all, that was sheer folly. By herself she was nothing." (Tyrion VI, ASOS 53)

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51 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

If Elia is alive, then for Lord Connington to relegate her role to that of a religious instructor seems like an incredible overreach of power in trying to limit a mother’s relationship to her son. Would he really think that of Elia? I don’t think so.

That's the thing, though. Lemore's main priority with Young Griff is to give him religious instruction, but I would think she does more with him than that. 

In any case, the one interaction we are privy to between Connington and Lemore and there is friction between them over their plans and revealing Aegon to sellswords. So I don't think this relationship is all sunshine and roses. 

Interestingly enough, Lemore, whoever she may be, seems to have a lot of trust in Illyrio's judgement.

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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12 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

You have my apologies. I misunderstood what you meant. 

Maybe there is and maybe there isn't. If Elia is alive, then she becomes important. Maybe they are still paying lip service to the story because they have not met all their objectives yet, and their plans kept changing. They were supposed to meet Dany in Volantis, where I imagine Griff, Young Griff, Lemore were going to reveal their true identities. Then they were going to go to Meereen, where I imagine they would have done what they were planning on doing in Volantis. And now they are in Westeros. 

But I think this line is significant;

"I grant you, it was done brutally. Elia need not have been harmed at all, that was sheer folly. By herself she was nothing." (Tyrion VI, ASOS 53)

No problem.

It doesn't make sense that AeGriff would perpetuate the well-known-to-Tyrion story of Elia's death right after revealing the previously unknown-to-Tyrion story of his alleged switch, if he knew his mother was alive. Tyrion had made him flush, and put him on the defensive, so much so that he had been provoked into trying to prove to Tyrion that he was truly Rhaegar's son after Tyrion said it was a pity Connington had been exiled, otherwise he might have been on hand to save Rhaegar's son from getting his brains dashed in. So why would a flushed AeGriff go from trying to prove to Tyrion how he could be who he is claimed to be, to repeating what he knows to be a lie about Elia's death? It doesn't make sense.

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54 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

No problem.

It doesn't make sense that AeGriff would perpetuate the well-known-to-Tyrion story of Elia's death right after revealing the previously unknown-to-Tyrion story of his alleged switch, if he knew his mother was alive. Tyrion had made him flush, and put him on the defensive, so much so that he had been provoked into trying to prove to Tyrion that he was truly Rhaegar's son after Tyrion said it was a pity Connington had been exiled, otherwise he might have been on hand to save Rhaegar's son from getting his brains dashed in. So why would a flushed AeGriff go from trying to prove to Tyrion how he could be who he is claimed to be, to repeating what he knows to be a lie about Elia's death? It doesn't make sense.

I know this is not the answer you want, but I think it all has to do with secrecy. You stick with the story you have been telling until you don't have to anymore. 

Even after we find out who Griff and Young Griff are, the people of the Shy Maid still refer to them by their fake names. After everyone finds out who Tyrion really is, he is still referred to by his fake name. After he is gone, Lemore still calls him Hugor.  

But let me throw you the question (and everyone else). Making abstraction of this speculation and who Septa Lemore is, why do you think her identity has not been revealed yet?

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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2 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I know this is not the answer you want, but it all has to do with secrecy. The people on the Shy Maid were sworn to secrecy.

Even after we find out who Griff and Young Griff are, the people of the Shy Maid still refer to them by their fake names. After everyone finds out who Tyrion really is, he is still referred to by his fake name. After he is gone, Lemore still calls him Hugor.  

That explanation doesn't hold up in the context of this conversation. In this particular conversation, Tyrion is openly calling him Prince Aegon. Aegon is openly asking Tyrion about his true father (Rhaegar), and discussing what he knows about his relationship with his false father (Jon). And when Tyrion hints at doubting his story by saying it was a pity Connington had been exiled, and unable to save Rhaegar's son from getting his brains dashed in, Aegon reveals the story he has been given about how he was switched and saved in an attempt to prove to Tyrion that he is who he is truly Rhaegar's son. It is in that context that he says that the fake Pisswater boy had been given to his lady mother (Elia) while he was carried away to safety. AeGriff is not in secret keeping mode. He is in reveal-information-to-prove-he-is-Prince-Aegon mode. Yet instead of saying anything along the lines of, "by the way, Lady Lemore is actually my mother Elia, and Connington can vouch for her," he just speaks of himself being saved, while his mother was left behind with the fake that was murdered. There is no reason to be keeping Elia's survival under wraps when Tyrion already knows the biggest secret, that Young Griff is "really" Aegon.

28 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

But let me throw you the question (and everyone else). Making abstraction of this speculation and who Septa Lemore is, why do you think her identity has not been revealed yet?

Who knows? It could be that Lemore is Lemore, a Septa with a backstory, but not necessarily some other famed personality. Or perhaps she is someone we have heard of. But I think the Elia case is a difficult one. I think it makes a better story than Ashara, but I think we have enough to discount it.

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7 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

But let me throw you the question (and everyone else). Making abstraction of this speculation and who Septa Lemore is, why do you think her identity has not been revealed yet?

Hmmm... would that be any different if she is or is not Elia?

I guess the plan is to have the 'big reveal' at an opportune moment for maximum effect. And the lack of Doran Martell PoV means he could still be hiding more secret plots from us. If this is the case, and Arianne meets Lemore only to discover that she is really Elia and Doran knew all along, then Arianne is going to be one very pissed off little bunny.

Either way this goes, someone in the Martell household is going to be throwing a wobbly. So a good supplementary question: if Lemore is Elia, did Doran and Oberyn know?

Off the top of my head, we've had the trope that Martell is loyal to the Targs, starting first with the Dany/Viserys marriage plot, but surely this could only be the backup? The ideal for Dorne is for AEGON to ascend, as he is already half Martell. Arianne/Viserys was 2nd fiddle and Quentyn/Dany 3rd fiddle. Doran is a tricksy enough bird he could have kept all these balls in the air at once... with all the fuss being made about vengeance for Elia etc jsut there to keep everyone occupied. Even the Sand Snakes are wondering why he's taken so long to act. If he was waiting for Aegon to mature, that would be a perfect reason to move so slowly whilst making plenty of noise...But of course, the BEST option of all for House Martell is to get AEGON as king, then marry him to his cousin ARIANNE. After Aegon, the next in line is also 1/2 Martell! That's a prize Doran Martell would be happy to work long and slow for, and swallow all sorts of shit from everyone rather than reveal it.

As a final Martell related aside, I've also been pondering a deeper meaning of this little saying:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - The Queenmaker

.... "The arms of House Martell display the sun and spear, the Dornishman's two favored weapons," the Young Dragon had once written in his boastful Conquest of Dorne, "but of the two, the sun is the more deadly."

Of course, as Dorne is a desert kingdom the military truth to this statement is blatent. The Dornish have a call to 'spears' rather than swords, but it is rare for those spears to be bloodied. More often the enemy comes into the desert and dies of thirst and attrition - this is the obvious military sense of the saying.

But the second sense I just clicked to: we always talk about House Martell, and forget the full style is House Nymeros-Martell. The SUN was Nymeria's arms, the SPEAR was for (Mors) Martell. I think this saying is also indicating that the women of the family (the suns) are more deadly than the men (the spears)

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1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

That explanation doesn't hold up in the context of this conversation. In this particular conversation, Tyrion is openly calling him Prince Aegon. Aegon is openly asking Tyrion about his true father (Rhaegar), and discussing what he knows about his relationship with his false father (Jon). And when Tyrion hints at doubting his story by saying it was a pity Connington had been exiled, and unable to save Rhaegar's son from getting his brains dashed in, Aegon reveals the story he has been given about how he was switched and saved in an attempt to prove to Tyrion that he is who he is truly Rhaegar's son. It is in that context that he says that the fake Pisswater boy had been given to his lady mother (Elia) while he was carried away to safety. AeGriff is not in secret keeping mode. He is in reveal-information-to-prove-he-is-Prince-Aegon mode. Yet instead of saying anything along the lines of, "by the way, Lady Lemore is actually my mother Elia, and Connington can vouch for her," he just speaks of himself being saved, while his mother was left behind with the fake that was murdered. There is no reason to be keeping Elia's survival under wraps when Tyrion already knows the biggest secret, that Young Griff is "really" Aegon.

And this is fair enough. I'm honestly not trying to convince anyone as much as I think Elia's name should be given consideration in all this. I have no illusions, I know how very thin the thread is.

 

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