The Others: Why Now?

[Lady Barbrey]

1 hour ago, Lady Rhodes said:

This is exactly what I was referencing in my post. If their land has been blighted and devoid of food/energy source, the only way to survive is heading south. Horrible for the characters we love /love to hate but a reasonable reason for the Orhers to move. 

Some thoughts on this- I don’t think they “eat” humans or at least the sustenance is not enough. I am going back to Bran’s dream about the Greenseers being skewered on ice spears...could the Greenseers be the food source and the lack of Greenseers be causing them to starve? Were Greenseers sacrificed as part of a deal with the Others? But then the Greenseers died out, so no sacrifices were made and their food source dwindled. 

Alternatively, maybe they were being starved out and Bloodraven was dangling a tasty carrot in front of a ravenous rabbit

I don't think they eat Greenseers, because they are Greenseers - turned icy.Skewered on ice spears - the cold gods not the old gods - is the Other version of skewered on roots? That's what I thought they were.  Do people think differently?  I haven't been on forums for a few years.

Bloodraven has to have been doing something these last 50 years and he needs a comparative counterpart in the Others,  a Loki to his Odin, who have also been engaged in genetic design if the Craster family is anything to go by.  Were Rickard's southron ambitions about politics or gene manipulation by Bloodraven and the Children to produce Bran, Dany, Jon, Tyrion?  Tricky business, that, if all you've got is the power of suggestion through dreams. But think of Euron too - who is the him a potential child of kraken and dragon - a sea dragon - must be worthy of? Who has been influencing Euron towards selective genetic design? I imagine it's a cold god, ice seer, cause Jormungandr the sea dragon is a child of Loki the frost giant and allies with frost giants at Ragnarok.

Anyway, I think what Bran saw was the cold gods, his Other counterparts if Greenseers not only represent but are the old gods. 

That's why I think the Others are prepped but waiting - their seers know some 'chosen one/s' is going to bring down the Wall as a magical defensive barrier, and it might be Jon, or Jon and Craster's son as sacrifice between them in a resurrection ritual performed by someone who might very well be another unwitting counterpart, a fire-seer, Melisandre. But Ghost will be there too, and he's old gods.  So is Val.  Earth, Fire, Ice reps and a young man as perfect vessel for all three.  So exciting!  I am doomed to disappointment because my anticipation runs too high.

So I don't think the Others eat Greenseers, which still leaves the question, what do they eat? 

[Megorova]

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Sorry, I don't see any text to support the idea that there were wights present beyond the Wall before Mance.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Thing_that_came_in_the_night

This thing could be the Other.

"Long ago, multiple apprentice boys at the Nightfort claimed to have seen something which came in the night, but their descriptions of it differed when they informed their Lord Commander. Three boys died within a year and a fourth went mad.^[1] The thing is said to have returned a century later, this time with the apprentices shambling behind it in chains."

Maybe those three boys died, and the fourth went mad, because the Other infected them with winter virus. They died, were buried (on the other side of The Wall), and then risen from their graves. So when a century later, that Other returned to Nightfort, those apprentices has also came with it, as wights. In this case "in chains" is metaphorical, meaning, that even though they were already dead, they were still not free, because their bodies were possessed. 

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Why would the wildings suddenly be so terrified of them now if they've been living with them throughout the ages?

Because until recently (last 15 or so years), the Others were mostly inactive. Aside from that ancient incident with Corpse Queen, and this more recent Thing that came in the night, and probably several more freak incidents, spread over several thousands years, people in general (even wildlings) were unaware about existence of the Others (besides several unlucky people, that have met the Others, and were killed by them).

[Maia]

On 10/25/2018 at 9:15 PM, John Suburbs said:

 All I've seen is that Craster says Mance is amassing people in the Frostfangs, but he doesn't say how long this has been going on.

Pretty sure that one of the rangers says at some point that the Frostfangs are too barren and inhospitable for people to be able to stay there for long.

On 10/25/2018 at 9:15 PM, John Suburbs said:

Mance's original purpose for turning his cloak was the defeat the Nights Watch.

No, it was to live how he liked.

On 10/25/2018 at 9:15 PM, John Suburbs said:

 So since defeating the NW is basically impossible as long as the Wall stands, it's only logical that he would want the horn to complete that goal.

No, it isn't, as Mance's own plan with sending a covert ops party to open the gate, while distracting NW by attacks elsewhere demonstrated. If he didn't commit the monumental, contrived stupidity of sending Jon with them, or sent more than one such group, it would have succeeded admirably. But then, his biggest problem would have always been the northmen.

On 10/25/2018 at 9:15 PM, John Suburbs said:

Once the Others are on the move, however, the last thing he would want to do is destroy the Wall, since that will still leave his people at the mercy of the Others.

Which is why he first tried a commando raid and then blackmail. If he actually had the horn, using it would have been the last resort - and wildlings' only hope would have been to move south quickly while the Others would have hopefully been delayed dealing with the northmen trying to defend their their lands.

On 10/25/2018 at 9:15 PM, John Suburbs said:

So where is the text that says Mance only began searching for the horn once it became clear he could not defeat the Others?

Osha said that Mance intended to fight the Others at the time when she and her fellow raiders decided to run south instead.

On 10/25/2018 at 9:15 PM, John Suburbs said:

With no Others to worry about, it makes all the sense in the world to find the power that will destroy the wall, and the NW with it, so his people could finally live in peace.

Give him some credit - he knew that his folk weren't inclined to "live in peace" and that the northmen wouldn't have let them do what they wanted south of the Wall. Not for long, at least.

On 10/25/2018 at 9:15 PM, John Suburbs said:

Sorry, I haven't seen any text stating how long Craster has been doing this. And even if he has been doing it "before Mance was an itch in his daddy's pants" there is nothing that says the Others have been taking them all this time.

Craster has been described as in his fifties and he lived alone with women who had been beaten into fearful subservience. He had pigs, sheep women, shelter and nobody to help him defend all these desirable things in a "might makes right" culture. He was also known to be "a friend of the Watch", which couldn't have endeared him to other wildlings. Isn't it odd that some raiding party hasn't attacked him long ago? IMHO, he had to have protection for the 3 decades or so that he lived in his "keep".

On 10/25/2018 at 9:15 PM, John Suburbs said:

If the Others, and presumably their wights, have been "always around", then what caused all the wildlings to suddenly pull up stakes, leave their homes and flee to Mance? What's changed?

What changes when locusts swarm iRL? It isn't like they aren't always around, but in certain conditions they multiply explosively and devour every plant food source that they come across. And/or the change in the Others behavior was part of the plan to use  terrified wildlings to break the magic of the Wall, somehow. They likely know that the Long Night is coming and have plans.

Sam found mentions of the Others being seen by rangers 5 or so centuries ago, of the CoTF tribute of obsidian weapons to NW, etc. TWoIaF speaks of some tribes on the Frozen Shore worshiping "the gods of ice and snow", which are pretty clearly the Others. Coldhands had been killed and wightified  "long ago" according to Bloodraven. The wildlings never stopped burning their dead - and yes, it is normal wildling behavior, something the rangers expected, rather than something new, etc. If not for the anti-magic crusade of the maesters there may have been reports of more recent sightings.

Re: whether the Others bring the cold or vice versa, why not both? Why not a circle of positive reinforcement, where the colder it is, the more additional cold they can create? There may be a tipping point during the Long Night, where they might be able to achieve a perpetual Ice Age.

Everything points at the Others being around, but, until recently, being  rather circumspect. Still, the wildlings knew to fear them and not to leave around corpses for the raising.

May I also point out that  Targaryens had First Men blood in them since Maekar's kids at the latest? And that they have undoubtedly sired lots of bastards with the same over the centuries, long before Bloodraven? Not to mention that Egg's queen was a Blackwood. Jon isn't special in that. 

 

[John Suburbs]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

@John Suburbs

I never said the Others must have been visibly there all those years. I just said they would have been *there*, not banished or imprisoned or sleeping.

The Land of Always Winter is very large, and no human beings apparently live up there. Meaning that the Others being active up there - and at the Heart of Winter which was also always there, presumably - would have had no bearing on or connection with the wildlings. They wouldn't have met each other, and the wildlings wouldn't have had known anything about their presence.

 

Fair enough. So what then caused the Others to suddenly migrate south? Despoiling the ancient graves of long-dead wildling warlords is just as valid a reason as any other that's been proposed. The problem with your theory is that if the LoAW is their preferred habitat -- cold and forbidding -- then they wouldn't come south at the tail end of the longest summer on record; the would wait until it was nice and cold, no?

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Brandon's dream implies 'the true enemy' sits at the Heart of Winter, and that place neither were nor is some desecrated graves in the Frostfangs. The Frostfangs are a place where human beings have lived in the past and live still when Mance assembles his people there.

Brandon sees "the true enemy" but nowhere is it implied that this enemy is the Others or is even connected to the Others. As I posited in my alternate musing, the Others could very well be trying to escape from the northern horror that Bran saw. And since we have yet to see an Other raising or animating a wight, this thing could very well be responsible for that too.

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If the Others were *inactive* at some place it would have been in the Lands of Always Winter and the Heart of Winter, not the Frostfangs. And nothing indicates Mance or any wildling ever went up there.

This is an assumption -- a musing, if you will --, not a fact. We have no text that definitively says where the Others come from or where they've been all these years.

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In addition, the wildlings are very different tribes and clans and people. They are usually not unified (and they still aren't, considering that not all of them joined Mance). If the Others start to harass the northernmost tribes of the wildlings it should take years or even decades until those further down south do learn about that fact - and take the reports seriously.

And yet the Thenns, who like north of the Frostfangs, put up extremely fierce resistance to Mance. He had to defeat them three times before they submitted. Doesn't sound like a people who are the first to face extinction by wights and invincible icemen to me.

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The idea that Mance opening a couple of graves is going to lead to an Other threat powerful enough to affect all the wildlings isn't very convincing to me.

I'm not saying it should. Just recognize that your version of events is pure speculation, just like mine and everybody else's.  

[John Suburbs]

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Thing_that_came_in_the_night

This thing could be the Other.

"Long ago, multiple apprentice boys at the Nightfort claimed to have seen something which came in the night, but their descriptions of it differed when they informed their Lord Commander. Three boys died within a year and a fourth went mad.^[1] The thing is said to have returned a century later, this time with the apprentices shambling behind it in chains."

Maybe those three boys died, and the fourth went mad, because the Other infected them with winter virus. They died, were buried (on the other side of The Wall), and then risen from their graves. So when a century later, that Other returned to Nightfort, those apprentices has also came with it, as wights. In this case "in chains" is metaphorical, meaning, that even though they were already dead, they were still not free, because their bodies were possessed. 

Because until recently (last 15 or so years), the Others were mostly inactive. Aside from that ancient incident with Corpse Queen, and this more recent Thing that came in the night, and probably several more freak incidents, spread over several thousands years, people in general (even wildlings) were unaware about existence of the Others (besides several unlucky people, that have met the Others, and were killed by them).

Sure, the thing could have been an Other, but there is no way to know for sure. The stories say they each gave a different description, which is unlikely if it was a blue-eyed, blue-skinned man. So instead of using this one piece of sketchy evidence to declare that Others were most definitely active north of the Wall, how about simply recognizing the honest fact: maybe they were, maybe they weren't.

And even if we do have tales of individual Others popping up a handful of times over the past 8000 years or so, this time is clearly different. Will saw a group of half a dozen or so; Sam encountered another not two years later; Tormund, Osha and other wildlings have seen them; wights are reported frequently -- Otho, Yarwyck, "dead things in the water." Clearly these are not just random occurrences; something has changed.

So mayhaps some earlier wildling plundered one grave in the Frostfangs and released a single Other. Now we have reports of 50 or more graves defiled and, lo and behold, the north is suddenly crawling with wights and Others. Coincidence? Yes, but maybe no as well.

[Lord Varys]

@John Suburbs

I'm pretty conventional. I say the Others are the true enemy and take that at face value until such a time as there is actually evidence that they are not.

Making zombies out of corpses and actually killing people is more than enough evidence that they are not mankind's friends. And they actually give no indication that they are 'on the move' or that they actually 'migrate south'. They do show further down in the south than they did in previous years, but there is no indication that they intend to stay there.

If we accept the idea that the freak seasons/long winters and the Others are connected somehow (which is strongly implied by the 'bring they the cold' or 'do they come with the cold' question) then a very crucial piece of information is the fact that the death of the last dragon caused longer and crueler winters.

That means the Others first started to bestir themselves in an active way around 153 AC - or perhaps even before that, when the Dance claimed as many dragons as it did. We get a six-year-winter there, and in addition a deadly plague called 'the Winter Fever'. I know it is likely a stretch but Sauron did sent plagues to weaken his enemies, too, and deadly plagues breaking out Westeros' freak winters can be seen as somewhat suspicious if we play with the idea that the Others actually know what they are doing.

In any case, I think it is much better hypothesis to assume the lack of dragons had a very strong effect on the Others considering that it is a huge and plot-relevant miracle that the dragons returned in AGoT, possibly giving mankind a chance to properly fight against the Others.

Valyria's long power and the subsequent move of the Targaryens to Dragonstone and then Westeros itself would also have helped to keep both winter and the Others in check. It may have even terrified them. From Aegon I to Aegon III there was a very real possibility that the dragonriders of House Targaryen may have flown up there to investigate what is going on in the Land of Always Winter (or they may have sent a vast expeditionary host beyond the Wall in some long summer).

Alysanne's problems flying Silverwing north of the Wall also fits very well with this idea because it underlines that the fire and ice are not exactly friends on a magical nor elemental level. The Others cannot be keen to have a dragonrider on their turf, finding them and possibly destroying or attacking the Heart of Winter. And Silverwing not crossing the Wall is one thing - who knows whether Balerion or Vhagar would have been equally cowed? They are very old dragons and their fires must burn much hotter than Silverwing's in the late 50s.

[John Suburbs]

44 minutes ago, Maia said:

Pretty sure that one of the rangers says at some point that the Frostfangs are too barren and inhospitable for people to be able to stay there for long.

The wildlings have only amassed in the Frostfangs very recently, but that doesn't mean Mance and his band could not have been up there opening graves for years.

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No, it was to live how he liked.

Regardless, when he began looking for the horn his intent was to bring down the Wall. That is the only thing the horn does. It does nothing to stop the Others; in fact, it destroys the only thing that does stop them.

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No, it isn't, as Mance's own plan with sending a covert ops party to open the gate, while distracting NW by attacks elsewhere demonstrated. If he didn't commit the monumental, contrived stupidity of sending Jon with them, or sent more than one such group, it would have succeeded admirably. But then, his biggest problem would have always been the northmen.

Which is why he first tried a commando raid and then blackmail. If he actually had the horn, using it would have been the last resort - and wildlings' only hope would have been to move south quickly while the Others would have hopefully been delayed dealing with the northmen trying to defend their their lands.

True, it is not the only way to defeat the NW, but it would be the most direct and decisive way -- provided there is not an ancient, invincible undead/ice enemy at your back that would simply follow you over the rubble of the now-destroyed Wall. All the more reason why it would make more sense for him to seek the horn before the Others awoke -- since he could destroy the Wall, destroy the NW with no threat from an ancient scourge in his rear. (Har!)

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Osha said that Mance intended to fight the Others at the time when she and her fellow raiders decided to run south instead.

Again, yes, this is his plan now. My point is that this was not necessarily the plan when he began opening the graves. The plan was to find the horn to take down the Wall. Now that the Others are loose, sure, he has to deal with them somehow.

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Give him some credit - he knew that his folk weren't inclined to "live in peace" and that the northmen wouldn't have let them do what they wanted south of the Wall. Not for long, at least.

The Night's Watch would be gone, at least. Any further harassment would have to come directly from the Starks and other houses. And if they are able to take Winterfell... But none of that can happen as long as the Wall stands.

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Craster has been described as in his fifties and he lived alone with women who had been beaten into fearful subservience. He had pigs, sheep women, shelter and nobody to help him defend all these desirable things in a "might makes right" culture. He was also known to be "a friend of the Watch", which couldn't have endeared him to other wildlings. Isn't it odd that some raiding party hasn't attacked him long ago? IMHO, he had to have protection for the 3 decades or so that he lived in his "keep".

You're saying that whenever any group of wildlings came near Craster's they were attacked and killed by wights and Others? And yet now the wildlings are fleeing in fear from the very same wights and Others that have been in their midst for the past 30 years? There are all kinds of villages and homesteads in the Haunted Forest and no raiders have sacked and pillaged them. Craster can take care of his own. He's a tough old goat.

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What changes when locusts swarm iRL? It isn't like they aren't always around, but in certain conditions they multiply explosively and devour every plant food source that they come across. And/or the change in the Others behavior was part of the plan to use  terrified wildlings to break the magic of the Wall, somehow. They likely know that the Long Night is coming and have plans.

Locusts swarm periodically and the people who live in those areas learn to cope with it. They don't abandon their homes and livelihoods just because a new swarm arises, but they would flee in terror if they had never seen one before or only heard scary stories of them from the deep, distant past.

You're theory is very plausible. But you have no more evidence to support it than I do mine.

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Sam found mentions of the Others being seen by rangers 5 or so centuries ago, of the CoTF tribute of obsidian weapons to NW, etc. TWoIaF speaks of some tribes on the Frozen Shore worshiping "the gods of ice and snow", which are pretty clearly the Others. Coldhands had been killed and wightified  "long ago" according to Bloodraven. The wildlings never stopped burning their dead - and yes, it is normal wildling behavior, something the rangers expected, rather than something new, etc. If not for the anti-magic crusade of the maesters there may have been reports of more recent sightings.

Not sure but I think one of the books that Sam finds in the library is 500 years old, but it simply repeats the legends that existed since the Long Night. But post if you have text.

In any event, the possibility that Others have appeared since the Long Night is irrelevant. It is not beyond the realm of possibility that wildlings could have plundered a grave or two over the years.

Coldhands is not an Other, nor is he a wight. He is something different. He has black eyes, not blue. And there is no evidence that Coldhands has been actively wandering around the north for thousands of years. He could very well be the spirit of some ancient being currently inhabiting the body of a recently deceased ranger. The body, at least, does not appear to be very old.

I can't find any text that says the wildlings traditionally burn their dead. But if they do, what of it? Many cultures burn their dead. In the frozen north, a dead body will lie in the ground for years, if not decades, and would likely get dug up by some animal -- so better to burn them. And it could very will be a custom left over from the Long Night, when there were Others and wights shambling about.

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Re: whether the Others bring the cold or vice versa, why not both? Why not a circle of positive reinforcement, where the colder it is, the more additional cold they can create? There may be a tipping point during the Long Night, where they might be able to achieve a perpetual Ice Age.

OK, so they bring the cold and the cold brings them. If the Others were around before Mance started opening graves, the north only grew warmer since their arrival. Shouldn't it have been getting steadily colder this whole time with more and more Others moving south?

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Everything points at the Others being around, but, until recently, being  rather circumspect. Still, the wildlings knew to fear them and not to leave around corpses for the raising.

Sorry, no. There is nothing that points to that conclusion. Don't get me wrong, it may very well be true, but there is no text whatsoever that confirms it. 

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May I also point out that  Targaryens had First Men blood in them since Maekar's kids at the latest? And that they have undoubtedly sired lots of bastards with the same over the centuries, long before Bloodraven? Not to mention that Egg's queen was a Blackwood. Jon isn't special in that. 

Sorry, I don't see the point. Are you saying that there is some magical Targ-FM blood reason why the Others have suddenly appeared? I thought they were there all along?

[John Suburbs]

31 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

@John Suburbs

I'm pretty conventional. I say the Others are the true enemy and take that at face value until such a time as there is actually evidence that they are not.

Making zombies out of corpses and actually killing people is more than enough evidence that they are not mankind's friends. And they actually give no indication that they are 'on the move' or that they actually 'migrate south'. They do show further down in the south than they did in previous years, but there is no indication that they intend to stay there.

If we accept the idea that the freak seasons/long winters and the Others are connected somehow (which is strongly implied by the 'bring they the cold' or 'do they come with the cold' question) then a very crucial piece of information is the fact that the death of the last dragon caused longer and crueler winters.

That means the Others first started to bestir themselves in an active way around 153 AC - or perhaps even before that, when the Dance claimed as many dragons as it did. We get a six-year-winter there, and in addition a deadly plague called 'the Winter Fever'. I know it is likely a stretch but Sauron did sent plagues to weaken his enemies, too, and deadly plagues breaking out Westeros' freak winters can be seen as somewhat suspicious if we play with the idea that the Others actually know what they are doing.

In any case, I think it is much better hypothesis to assume the lack of dragons had a very strong effect on the Others considering that it is a huge and plot-relevant miracle that the dragons returned in AGoT, possibly giving mankind a chance to properly fight against the Others.

Valyria's long power and the subsequent move of the Targaryens to Dragonstone and then Westeros itself would also have helped to keep both winter and the Others in check. It may have even terrified them. From Aegon I to Aegon III there was a very real possibility that the dragonriders of House Targaryen may have flown up there to investigate what is going on in the Land of Always Winter (or they may have sent a vast expeditionary host beyond the Wall in some long summer).

Alysanne's problems flying Silverwing north of the Wall also fits very well with this idea because it underlines that the fire and ice are not exactly friends on a magical nor elemental level. The Others cannot be keen to have a dragonrider on their turf, finding them and possibly destroying or attacking the Heart of Winter. And Silverwing not crossing the Wall is one thing - who knows whether Balerion or Vhagar would have been equally cowed? They are very old dragons and their fires must burn much hotter than Silverwing's in the late 50s.

Conventional thinking is fine. Before Storm it would have led you to believe Cersei and/or Jaime killed Jon Arryn, but whatever. 

There is no evidence that the Others are making the wights, or controlling them.

If they bring the cold/long winters with them, and they've been around since before Mance started opening graves, then why has it gotten warmer even in the north? The fact that the long winter is only now just starting ought to be proof enough that the Others return is a very recent event.

If the death of the dragons brought longer, crueler winters, those days are long gone? Tyrion has seen eight (nine?) winters in his 25 years -- the last one of which ended 10 years ago. So it seems that recent history at least had winters that lasted less than a year, two at best. Now, this plays nicely with an alternate theory to yours: that it's not the increasingly cold weather that is stirring the Others, but the increasingly warm weather. They seem to prefer the cold; the heat, not so much. The probably rejoiced at the death of the dragons, since they're, you know, fire made flesh.

Hypotheses are fine, but just recognize them for what they are: guesses. I've never said my theory is correct. Just that it's a possibility -- a highly plausible one IMO.

 

 

 

[Lord Varys]

17 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

There is no evidence that the Others are making the wights, or controlling them.

I take the Prologue of AGoT and ASoS (three horn blows mean Others, not wights) as sufficient evidence for that.

17 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

If they bring the cold/long winters with them, and they've been around since before Mance started opening graves, then why has it gotten warmer even in the north? The fact that the long winter is only now just starting ought to be proof enough that the Others return is a very recent event.

There is no indication that it has gotten warmer in the North. It is summer when the series starts, and it summer it is not as cold in the North as it is in winter.

Although it might be that summers in the dragon days were actually warmer and long winters in those days milder. We do not know that at this point.

17 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

If the death of the dragons brought longer, crueler winters, those days are long gone? Tyrion has seen eight (nine?) winters in his 25 years -- the last one of which ended 10 years ago. So it seems that recent history at least had winters that lasted less than a year, two at best. Now, this plays nicely with an alternate theory to yours: that it's not the increasingly cold weather that is stirring the Others, but the increasingly warm weather. They seem to prefer the cold; the heat, not so much. The probably rejoiced at the death of the dragons, since they're, you know, fire made flesh.

If the story is correct about the winters - and this goes to THK and people who actually knew people who knew winters before and after the dragons were dead - the this would be on average. There are shorter winters and longer winters, and those are supposedly also linked to longer and shorter summers - a short summer can indicate a short winter and long summer a long winter.

But it seems that those winters that were long grew longer and colder since the last dragon died.

The biggest issue with your hypothesis is the whole grave-robbing thing. There is just nothing in the story that indicate a connection there. Nor is there any connection that anything human beings did or thought or said has any bearings on the actions of the Others.

[Lady Barbrey]

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

@John Suburbs

I'm pretty conventional. I say the Others are the true enemy and take that at face value until such a time as there is actually evidence that they are not.

Making zombies out of corpses and actually killing people is more than enough evidence that they are not mankind's friends. And they actually give no indication that they are 'on the move' or that they actually 'migrate south'. They do show further down in the south than they did in previous years, but there is no indication that they intend to stay there.

If we accept the idea that the freak seasons/long winters and the Others are connected somehow (which is strongly implied by the 'bring they the cold' or 'do they come with the cold' question) then a very crucial piece of information is the fact that the death of the last dragon caused longer and crueler winters.

That means the Others first started to bestir themselves in an active way around 153 AC - or perhaps even before that, when the Dance claimed as many dragons as it did. We get a six-year-winter there, and in addition a deadly plague called 'the Winter Fever'. I know it is likely a stretch but Sauron did sent plagues to weaken his enemies, too, and deadly plagues breaking out Westeros' freak winters can be seen as somewhat suspicious if we play with the idea that the Others actually know what they are doing.

In any case, I think it is much better hypothesis to assume the lack of dragons had a very strong effect on the Others considering that it is a huge and plot-relevant miracle that the dragons returned in AGoT, possibly giving mankind a chance to properly fight against the Others.

Valyria's long power and the subsequent move of the Targaryens to Dragonstone and then Westeros itself would also have helped to keep both winter and the Others in check. It may have even terrified them. From Aegon I to Aegon III there was a very real possibility that the dragonriders of House Targaryen may have flown up there to investigate what is going on in the Land of Always Winter (or they may have sent a vast expeditionary host beyond the Wall in some long summer).

Alysanne's problems flying Silverwing north of the Wall also fits very well with this idea because it underlines that the fire and ice are not exactly friends on a magical nor elemental level. The Others cannot be keen to have a dragonrider on their turf, finding them and possibly destroying or attacking the Heart of Winter. And Silverwing not crossing the Wall is one thing - who knows whether Balerion or Vhagar would have been equally cowed? They are very old dragons and their fires must burn much hotter than Silverwing's in the late 50s.

I believe you have a good case here regarding the absence of dragons perhaps precipitating a rather glacial movement south, and I like the 6 year winter and winter fever associations.  But this theory does rest on the presumption that the Others know about dragons and Valyria and recognize them as enemies even though they exist on another continent, and far to the south of it at that, because in 5000 to 8000 years they don't bestir themselves after the Long Night, aside from probably regenerating themselves or powers at the Wall in the Night's King tale, in a mirror of Dany's regeneration of dragons.

So unless, like myself, you believe that dragons were involved in almost obliterating the Others the last time around, and the Valyrians were originally First Men dragon riders (created specifically to fight the Others) who reverse migrated back to Essos after the Long Night, how do you account for this fear the Others have of dragons and Valyrians?  

I actually believe the Others and Valyrians have been aware of the existence of each other throughout those thousands of years.  I even believe those First Men dragon riders helped build the base of the Wall with dragonfire infused spells - that's why Mel loves it - to keep ice magic in its own territory. The victors of the battle for the Dawn would have a vested interest in constructing the Wall and never letting the Others gain a hold again to the south - or to the east, where the First Men dragon riders migrated.  Even the first Targs in Westeros might have had some knowledge, though the knowledge was lost somewhere, because the fiery explosion at Hardhome only 600 years prior could well have been a response by the Valyrians to reports of increased Other activity on the coast of Westeros.

So your theory is a good possibility but implies previous knowledge of, fear of, and enmity to, dragon riders.  Perhaps you don't mean to imply this and have another explanation as to why a species at the equivalent to the North Pole would know about and be frightened of a species halfway around the world both south and east.

 

 

[Megorova]

16 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Sure, the thing could have been an Other, but there is no way to know for sure. The stories say they each gave a different description, which is unlikely if it was a blue-eyed, blue-skinned man. So instead of using this one piece of sketchy evidence to declare that Others were most definitely active north of the Wall, how about simply recognizing the honest fact: maybe they were, maybe they weren't.

"The Others wear delicate, reflective, camouflaging armor that shifts in color with every step.^[3] According to comic book artist Tommy Patterson, Martin told him that "the reflective, camouflaging armor" is able to pick up "the images of the things around it like a clear, still pond." "

It's likely, that that being was differently described by different people, because they saw it from different viewpoints, and thus, in camouflage-chameleon-like armour of that being were reflecting various things and colors, which made it look differently, from what it really was.

16 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

And even if we do have tales of individual Others popping up a handful of times over the past 8000 years or so, this time is clearly different. Will saw a group of half a dozen or so; Sam encountered another not two years later; Tormund, Osha and other wildlings have seen them; wights are reported frequently -- Otho, Yarwyck, "dead things in the water." Clearly these are not just random occurrences; something has changed.

Yes, something has changed. But those changes happened years BEFORE Mance dug out those graves. There were already hundreds if not thousands of wights walking around on that side of The Wall, by the time Mance decided to look for the Horn of Winter.

This is my viewpoint of what could have happened: for the last thousands or hundreds years there was only several of Others, maybe even just one. Then they (or he) found Craster, and made a deal with him - protection in exchange for his sons. And it happened like 15 or so years ago (in 282-284, around time, when Jon was conceived/born/brought to Winterfell). The Other took those children, infected them with "winter virus" from his blue blood, and they mutated and also became the Others. They were not human beings anymore, but they were still little children, so they needed years to grow up, prior they will be ready for the battle. So they were growing up, and their "foster father" was occasionally bringing more boys (Craster's sons), and turning them also into the Others. Those, that grew enough, he trained in martial arts, and taught to use winter magic. Same, as predators in real world do for their little, the Other was catching prey - living people, and bringing them to his kids, for them to kill it, and learn to turn dead bodies into wights and control them. Then, years later, when they were ready, they all went south (from far far far north of the Land of Always Winter) towards settlements of wildlings. They came at night, and killed everyone, and then turned all those dead people into wights. They went from one village to another, wiping them out, one by one. This also took some time. And this is when Mance and other wildlings became aware of what's going on. So Mance went to other tribes, and tried to make them unite, and fight together against common foe. But those people still didn't realised the full scale of what's going on, and what's going to happen, so they kept fighting against each other, and against Mance. It took Mance several years to defeat those stubborn chieftains, and convince other wildlings to unite and follow him. Thru all that time the Others, and their constantly growing Undead Army, was getting closer and closer to The Wall, making all wildlings to abandon their settlements and to run south, also closer to The Wall. That's when Mance and his activity became known to Night's Watch, and to northerners on this side of The Wall. Mance and united by him tribes, tried to fight against the Others, and their numerous army of wights. But they lost, and many of them died, and the Others became only stronger, and their Undear Army became more numerous. That's when Mance went to Frostfangs, to look there for the Horn of Winter.

This option seems more logical, than the possibility, that there was no Others beyond The Wall, until Mance, for whatever random reason, decided to look for the Horn of Winter, and in the process of his searches, accidentaly has released the Others from their ancient graves. No?

[Lady Barbrey]

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

"The Others wear delicate, reflective, camouflaging armor that shifts in color with every step.^[3] According to comic book artist Tommy Patterson, Martin told him that "the reflective, camouflaging armor" is able to pick up "the images of the things around it like a clear, still pond." "

It's likely, that that being was differently described by different people, because they saw it from different viewpoints, and thus, in camouflage-chameleon-like armour of that being were reflecting various things and colors, which made it look differently, from what it really was.

Yes, something has changed. But those changes happened years BEFORE Mance dug out those graves. There were already hundreds if not thousands of wights walking around on that side of The Wall, by the time Mance decided to look for the Horn of Winter.

This is my viewpoint of what could have happened: for the last thousands or hundreds years there was only several of Others, maybe even just one. Then they (or he) found Craster, and made a deal with him - protection in exchange for his sons. And it happened like 15 or so years ago (in 282-284, around time, when Jon was conceived/born/brought to Winterfell). The Other took those children, infected them with "winter virus" from his blue blood, and they mutated and also became the Others. They were not human beings anymore, but they were still little children, so they needed years to grow up, prior they will be ready for the battle. So they were growing up, and their "foster father" was occasionally bringing more boys (Craster's sons), and turning them also into the Others. Those, that grew enough, he trained in martial arts, and taught to use winter magic. Same, as predators in real world do for their little, the Other was catching prey - living people, and bringing them to his kids, for them to kill it, and learn to turn dead bodies into wights and control them. Then, years later, when they were ready, they all went south (from far far far north of the Land of Always Winter) towards settlements of wildlings. They came at night, and killed everyone, and then turned all those dead people into wights. They went from one village to another, wiping them out, one by one. This also took some time. And this is when Mance and other wildlings became aware of what's going on. So Mance went to other tribes, and tried to make them unite, and fight together against common foe. But those people still didn't realised the full scale of what's going on, and what's going to happen, so they kept fighting against each other, and against Mance. It took Mance several years to defeat those stubborn chieftains, and convince other wildlings to unite and follow him. Thru all that time the Others, and their constantly growing Undead Army, was getting closer and closer to The Wall, making all wildlings to abandon their settlements and to run south, also closer to The Wall. That's when Mance and his activity became known to Night's Watch, and to northerners on this side of The Wall. Mance and united by him tribes, tried to fight against the Others, and their numerous army of wights. But they lost, and many of them died, and the Others became only stronger, and their Undear Army became more numerous. That's when Mance went to Frostfangs, to look there for the Horn of Winter.

This option seems more logical, than the possibility, that there was no Others beyond The Wall, until Mance, for whatever random reason, decided to look for the Horn of Winter, and in the process of his searches, accidentaly has released the Others from their ancient graves. No?

Maybe.  These ideas that they've suddenly sprung up from graves or that there was only one or a few until a few years ago - I don't envision it like that at all, maybe because I'm from the North and it's vast.  I've always assumed the Others were a people a little like the Inuit, living much higher in the North than other indigenous peoples or the European settlers that came over.  There might be an occasional sighting from someone who went too far north when lost or exploring, or the Others might send scouts or raiders once in a while south, so you might catch a glimpse or hear a rumour of them, but as a people living in the remote North  they could number a hundred thousand spread out and few south of them would know it.

They seem to have their own language, their own technologies in their armour, George says they can do amazing things with ice (and I believe those were ice seers, equivalent to greenseers, that's why some Wildlings worship cold gods, or gods of frost and snow), Bran sees some sort of horrific centre at the Heart of Winter, there have been reports of their existence and sightings over the centuries - so I'm seeing at least a loosely defined culture that's existed for a long time. But it's possible, I think probable, that only a few of them are necromancers and/or ice seers, because that's how it seems to work with other elemental magic people of the earth and fire varieties.  Only a few families of the Valyrians were dragon riders, only one in a hundred or a thousand of the First Men are Greenseers, skinchangers, wargs etc. For any concentration, it has to be bred in, so that's why Craster's family is set up for incest. In that sense, then, maybe there are only a few Others of the necromancer/ice seer variety, and then @Megorova your theory or a variation of it becomes more plausible to me.

 

 

[Megorova]

@Lady Barbrey

I didn't meant, that there was only one Other on that side of The Wall in all those thousands of years. Obviously, that after First Long Night, there was many of them. Because, unlike in Essos, in Westeros they were not defeated, they were just either pushed to far north, or lured there, and then blocked by The Wall from the rest of the continent. Though over those thousands years, they (the Others of Westeros) had several more confrontations with people, and with the Children - Corpse Queen incident, the Children giving dragonglass to Night's Watch (to fight against the Others), records dated only 1000 years ago in library of Castle Black about the Others, what happened at Hardhome 600 years ago, etc. There were the Others, numerous, but they were keeping low profile, and mostly remained on far far far north of continent. And only recently (15 years ago, or several decades ago) their presence beyond The Wall became more prominent. So something must have happened between those thousands/hundreds years, that the Others were keeping low profile, and now, when they let their existence be known to people. But whatever it was, that has caused splash of their activity, happened years ago, prior Mance started to gather all wildlings together. 

Though, just think about it - the Others needed time, significant amount of time, to create a whole army of walking dead. And those zombies are a slow walkers. And it seems, that they are mostly dormant during daylight. Thus, until recently, the progress of the Others was slow. Probably it takes months, to bring mob of zombies from one village to another. And the Others themselves are not walking, at least not extensively. They took horses of whoever they killed. Killed those horses too, and brought them back, from wherever they came, to give a ride to their fellow Others. So it took them years to come to wherever they are now, in proximity of The Wall. To cover great distances on foot (prior finding horses to ride), and assembling a big army of corpses, would have taken lots of time, regardless of whether originally there was only one Other, dozens of them, or hundreds. The more of them was there (on the far north), the more horses they needed. And the Undead Army is slow anyway, no matter how many Others are leading it. Thus their original numbers are not important, not for the end result.

42 minutes ago, Lady Barbrey said:

They seem to have their own language, their own technologies in their armour, George says they can do amazing things with ice (and I believe those were ice seers, equivalent to greenseers, that's why some Wildlings worship cold gods, or gods of frost and snow),

I think, that they may be aliens, or alien robots/androids.

43 minutes ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Bran sees some sort of horrific centre at the Heart of Winter

Maybe what he saw there, was his own future - he saw himself binded to the Weirwood, with tree sprouts and roots growing thru his body. That's what horrified him so much. But when he woke up, he forgot what he saw. So, maybe, the Heart of Winter is that cave with Weirwood. In Jon's first chapter from ADWD, when he saw a warg-dream, when moon was chasing him, he run towards the cave of night where the sun has hidden. The sun is Bloodraven, he is a new The Lion of Night, and white lion from Dany's vision. And Shiera Seastar is Bloodraven's Moon (from Dothraki legends - husband is Sun and Stars, and wife is his Moon). The cave of Weirwood is the cave of night, thus the Weirwood is the sourse/reason of Long Night, and Bloodraven is "the Great Other", and Bran is going to become his replacement. So Melisandre made a right conclusion, when she saw a man with thousand eyes and a boy with wolf's head, that they are the enemy.

[lrresistable]

On 10/24/2018 at 2:40 PM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

 the way to establish peace with the Others is to kill Jon Snow.   Allowing Jon to die from his stab wounds may be enough to satisfy the Others and make them go back to the land of always winter.  

or they realise the PtwProphecied to be their downfall is dead, and they're free to launch their invasion.

[Lord Varys]

21 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

But this theory does rest on the presumption that the Others know about dragons and Valyria and recognize them as enemies even though they exist on another continent, and far to the south of it at that, because in 5000 to 8000 years they don't bestir themselves after the Long Night, aside from probably regenerating themselves or powers at the Wall in the Night's King tale, in a mirror of Dany's regeneration of dragons.

I know, but I don't think that is this much of stretch or presupposition. The Others are clearly magical beings. And magic seems to be heavily interconnected - after all, apparently spells in KL are suddenly working more effectively after the dragons returned into the world. At least that's what Wisdom Hallyne believes.

I don't think it is that much of a stretch that the Others might *feel* where and how many dragons are in the world if their magic - or the magic of the Heart of Winter - affects the entire world in relation to the freak seasons thing?

I don't think so.

In addition we have the fact to consider that the Others obviously must have more than general assumptions what's going on south of the Wall. Their plan involved planting wights near the weirwood grove, having her attack the leading officers, and then draw them out into the haunted forest to kill them there.

That implies they have ways to find out what's going on south of the Wall. And if they can do that, they certainly could also find out that the Valyrians were there, even if they did not felt the presence of the dragons.

And by the way - if we think of the Silverwing example for a moment, and assume the reason why she didn't want to fly north was because she felt the Others/their magic/the Heart of Winter there - what do we think the Others would have felt or thought about the presence of a dragonrider at the Wall? Surely they would have felt Silverwing, too? Would they have been happy about that? Would they have been afraid? Would they have felt provoked?

It might be that the plans or at least the foundation or desire to create a new Long Night was born then and there. After all, we are all pretty sure that the dragons - if used properly in war - have great potential to hurt or harm the Others and their plans. They should be aware of that, too.

21 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

So unless, like myself, you believe that dragons were involved in almost obliterating the Others the last time around, and the Valyrians were originally First Men dragon riders (created specifically to fight the Others) who reverse migrated back to Essos after the Long Night, how do you account for this fear the Others have of dragons and Valyrians?  

I think dragons and at least one dragonrider may have played a role during the War for the Dawn, but this doesn't mean this person (the Last Hero) may have used the same spell or technique as the Valyrians did in later years.

But this is not really necessary to account for the issues between the dragons and the Others. After all, both on a magical and on an elemental level fire and ice should be anathema to each other. Neither can be where the other holds sway. One assumes the Others and dragons grasp that on a very fundamental (and the dragons on an instinct) level.

[lrresistable]

On 10/26/2018 at 5:17 AM, Moiraine Sedai said:

Maybe it was Mormont's great ranging that pissed them off.  That's an act of war to take an army on their territory.  And Mance uniting the Wildlings can also correctly be viewed as a threat. 

 

I'm pretty sure we have the answers to why they attacked the Nights Watch force sitting at The Fist of the First Men, or rather, why their Wights did. besides the reason of killing 300+ black brothers, i mean

 

you'll find your answers here. It's the same reason why 6 Others came down South to hunt Waymar Royce.

[Lady Barbrey]

26 minutes ago, Megorova said:

@Lady BarbreyI

Quote

 

I didn't meant, that there was only one Other on that side of The Wall in all those thousands of years. Obviously, that after First Long Night, there was many of them. Because, unlike in Essos, in Westeros they were not defeated, they were just either pushed to far north, or lured there, and then blocked by The Wall from the rest of the continent. Though over those thousands years, they (the Others of Westeros) had several more confrontations with people, and with the Children - Corpse Queen incident, the Children giving dragonglass to Night's Watch (to fight against the Others), records dated only 1000 years ago in library of Castle Black about the Others, what happened at Hardhome 600 years ago, etc. There were the Others, numerous, but they were keeping low profile, and mostly remained on far far far north of continent. And only recently (15 years ago, or several decades ago) their presence beyond The Wall became more prominent. So something must have happened between those thousands/hundreds years, that the Others were keeping low profile, and now, when they let their existence be known to people. But whatever it was, that has caused splash of their activity, happened years ago, prior Mance started to gather all wildlings together. 

Though, just think about it - the Others needed time, significant amount of time, to create a whole army of walking dead. And those zombies are a slow walkers. And it seems, that they are mostly dormant during daylight. Thus, until recently, the progress of the Others was slow. Probably it takes months, to bring mob of zombies from one village to another. And the Others themselves are not walking, at least not extensively. They took horses of whoever they killed. Killed those horses too, and brought them back, from wherever they came, to give a ride to their fellow Others. So it took them years to come to wherever they are now, in proximity of The Wall. To cover great distances on foot (prior finding horses to ride), and assembling a big army of corpses, would have taken lots of time, regardless of whether originally there was only one Other, dozens of them, or hundreds. The more of them was there (on the far north), the more horses they needed. And the Undead Army is slow anyway, no matter how many Others are leading it. Thus their original numbers are not important, not for the end resuit.

 

Okay, I misunderstood you then. I don't think myself they were ever in Essos. I like the idea they've been on the move for years gathering zombie armies.  Gave me a shiver!

 

Quote

I think, that they may be aliens, or alien robots/androids.

No, just no.  

 

Quote

Maybe what he saw there, was his own future - he saw himself binded to the Weirwood, with tree sprouts and roots growing thru his body. That's what horrified him so much. But when he woke up, he forgot what he saw. So, maybe, the Heart of Winter is that cave with Weirwood. In Jon's first chapter from ADWD, when he saw a warg-dream, when moon was chasing him, he run towards the cave of night where the sun has hidden. The sun is Bloodraven, he is a new The Lion of Night, and white lion from Dany's vision. And Shiera Seastar is Bloodraven's Moon (from Dothraki legends - husband is Sun and Stars, and wife is his Moon). The cave of Weirwood is the cave of night, thus the Weirwood is the sourse/reason of Long Night, and Bloodraven is "the Great Other", and Bran is going to become his replacement. So Melisandre made a right conclusion, when she saw a man with thousand eyes and a boy with wolf's head, that they are the enemy.

This is fun stuff.  But unrestrained fire is an enemy to earth, so I see no reason an obvious earth magic entity rep like Bloodraven must be a Great Other of ice to be an enemy to fire magic entities.  To Mel, who likes labels, he likely is a Great Other, but he's of earth not ice. Earth, ice, fire - they're all antithetical even though they're natural and sometimes ally to defeat a common enemy. Earth/Midgard/Westeros needs to keep unrestrained chaotic forces of ice and fire out or it will be destroyed. But sometimes it needs to ally or use one to defeat the Other, whichever that 'other'  might be.

So it's best for me to think of them all as Great Others to one another, who either need to find a balance of co-existence in Westeros (the seasons steady), go back to their own territories (Far North and Essos)and stay there (status quo maintained), or destroy the world between them.

 

 

 

[Megorova]

15 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

This is fun stuff.  But unrestrained fire is an enemy to earth, so I see no reason an obvious earth magic entity rep like Bloodraven must be a Great Other of ice to be an enemy to fire magic entities.  To Mel, who likes labels, he likely is a Great Other, but he's of earth not ice.

The fire is an enemy to the Weirwood.

"Fearing that the children used heart trees for spying, the First Men burned and cut down the great weirwoods as they came, leading to war between the two races.^[4] "

I think, that First Men burned heart trees with fire (<- with what else? ), and cut them down with iron axes <- IRON not bronze. Because they figured out, that the heart trees and the Children are afraid of iron.

In the world of ASOIAF the iron is like silver in our world - harmful to vampires and werewolves. And the Weirwood is both of that - vampiric/parasitic bloodsucker in nature, and able to turn someone into a skinchanger (wendigo/werewolf). So, maybe, if the heart tree is cut down with iron, it won't grow again. The Starks know about iron's characteristics, so they place iron swords in the tombs of their deceased, to prevent them from rising as wights (which is also caused by the Weirwood).

First Men became enemies of the Children, thus Children used natural magic to drive people away from their continent, to make them go back to Essos, or to make them extinct (because of everlasting winter), if they will stay. They called the forces of nature/Old Gods, and summoned Winter/Long Night. And the place, where that ritual has happened, is Winterfell - it's the place, where Winter fell, i.e. descended upon earth/Planetos.

I think, that prior Long Night, First Men managed to push the Children as far north as The Neck. So First Men were living all over Westeros, below The Neck, and the Children were living above The Neck, and Moat Cailin was Children's last defence line against humans (The Children's Tower at Moat Cailin "Legend has it that the children of the forest called upon their gods here to send the hammer of the waters to smash the Neck.^[4] "). But eventually they had to move even further north, so they abandoned Moat Cailin, and their new main base became the site, where later Starks build Winterfell.

The Last Hero and his companions came from below The Neck, and went further north, into the Childrens' lands, to find them, and to negotiate with them. By the time he has arrived to Winterfell, all of his companions already died. And then in the vicinity of Winterfell's Heart Tree, he was ambushed by the Others. But the Children decided to talk with him, and called the Others back. 

The Children asked Old Gods to help them, to get rid of humans, so Old Gods created for them the Others, creatures that were able to summon cold, and to cause an everlasting winter. Though First Men weren't driven away, even by a century long winter, and everlasting night. Many of them were dying, but they still were not going away. Even when their dead were infected by winter virus, and rose as wights, that were thru this virus controled by the Others, the First Men still didn't went away. The Children only wanted to cause them a bit of discomfort, by making them cold, instead everything went out of hand. They totally lost control over what's going on. Their own creations, the Others, started to cause them big problems (because they were insatiable by nature, and craved to take more and more lives <- that's for what they were created, to extinguish life). So instead of a small game with climate control, what the Children got as result, was a global zombie Apocalypse, that they were already unable to stop on their own. And here comes the Last Hero, to negotiate a truce. How glad they were to see him ->   So they offered him - Let's stop lets' istead. All you need to do from now on is to our Gods, and occasionally to give a blood sacrifice to this Heart Tree.

So they helped each other to push (or lure) the Others further north, and then they build Winterfell castle (around the Heart Tree), and The Wall (to keep the Others away from people). The Last Hero was Bran the Builder, and first Lord Stark of Winterfell, the first King of Winter.

Unlike fire, the ice is not an element. Ice is result of cold, cold is a state of weather, weather is controlled by nature, nature is an element controlled by Old Gods and the Children. So when we're talking about Ice VS Five, actually it's Old Gods VS R'hllor, nature VS fire.

Ice is just a frozen water. And the Children are the ones, who control water element - like this -

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Hammer_of_the_waters

Quote

According to legend, the greenseers of the children of the forest used dark magic to stop the migration of the First Men to Westeros.^[4] Hundreds of greenseers gathered, possibly at the Isle of Faces^[2] or Moat Cailin.^[5] Some stories claim they sacrificed a thousand captive humans to weirwoods, while others claim the greenseers used blood from their own youths.^[2]

The hammer of the waters resulted in the shattering of the Arm of Dorne into the Stepstones and the Broken Arm, separating Westeros from Essos.^[2] Unfortunately for the children, it was too late, for the First Men already had a foothold in Westeros. However, the cataclysm proved the strength of the children's power, and may have proved instrumental in bringing the First Men to agree to the terms of the Pact on the Isle of Faces. The agreement ended hostilities, and marked four thousand years of friendship between the two races.^[6]

At some point, the greenseers attempted to use the hammer of the waters, working from the Children's Tower of Moat Cailin, to break the lands of Westeros in two.^[1][3] However, this created the boggy Neck instead of separate landmasses. It is unknown if this occurred during the same event as the breaking of the Arm of Dorne, or at a different time. The histories say that the crannogmen grew close to the children in the days when the greenseers tried to bring the hammer of the waters down upon the Neck.^[7]

 

[Lollygag]

10 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Unlike fire, the ice is not an element.

Water is liquid because it has been exposed to a certain amount of heat. Add more heat, it becomes vapor. So yes, ice is an element in that it's the purest form of water because it doesn't contain a bit of heat/fire to make it liquid.

[aryagonnakill#2]

I have always thought it was relatively clear that the death of the last dragon triggered their return.  The Maesters say that the winters got colder and longer and the summers shorter after this.  Since I also believe that lightbringer is a dragon,  it adds up that as humans lost their weapon against them, the others reactivated.