Heresy 214 The Last Heretic

[Tucu]

5 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Yeah well, I don't think my ideas are out of line. Catelyn's choice of words sounds like Ned WAS in a hurry to get back to Robert even if two weeks sounds like a long time to us. That probably was considered hasty.

There is one more piece from the app: Robert was present at Ned's wedding.

[asongofheresy]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Having Daenerys conception occurring after the burning death of Rickard Stark is certainly possible, but then she'd be older than Robb. Not saying that's not possible, because she's supposed to be around the same age as Robb and Jon. I also seem to recall that GRRM once said that the events described in the first chapter where we meet Dany actually occurred prior the mother direwolf scene. Just because the chapter is out of order doesn't mean those events occurred afterward. It's like how he's got Crow and Dance. They are supposed to be happening simultaneously even if Dance came out later.

Interesting I never know Daenerys chapter was supposed to be earlier than Bran 1 - it looks like among Jon, Robb and Daenerys, Jon is the eldest possibly born before Trident with Daenerys following after Sack of KL, and Robb I always thought it was possible he was born when Siege of Stormlands was lifted - is it possible? There was a scene where Daenerys was gifted slippers but said they were made for someone younger and was small for her feet, do you think it is important or not? 

[Melifeather]

20 minutes ago, Tucu said:

There is one more piece from the app: Robert was present at Ned's wedding.

Yeah, I saw that too, but the reference was the World book and not the books, so in my mind it’s not definitive.

2 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

Interesting I never know Daenerys chapter was supposed to be earlier than Bran 1 - it looks like among Jon, Robb and Daenerys, Jon is the eldest possibly born before Trident with Daenerys following after Sack of KL, and Robb I always thought it was possible he was born when Siege of Stormlands was lifted - is it possible? There was a scene where Daenerys was gifted slippers but said they were made for someone younger and was small for her feet, do you think it is important or not? 

The too small shoes does seem like a clue! And I’m with you in suspecting Dany was born shortly after the Sack.

[Tucu]

16 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Yeah, I saw that too, but the reference was the World book and not the books, so in my mind it’s not definitive.

This is the evidence we have from ASOIAF:

-Denys Arryn was killed at the Battle of the Bells. Hoster was injured during the battle so he was present.

-Jon&Lisa's wedding was quickly arranged. Cat thinks that Jon was at the time an old man without a heir.

-There was a double wedding.

-Robert's army was being chased by JonCon

-Ned stayed in Riverrun for two weeks after his wedding.

 

[Lady Rhodes]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Having Daenerys conception occurring after the burning death of Rickard Stark

Could the PtwP/AA prophecies have any links to the deaths of Rickard and Brandon?  Just an errant thought.

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

I also seem to recall that GRRM once said that the events described in the first chapter where we meet Dany actually occurred prior the mother direwolf scene

I believe you are correct as well. 

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

This timeline would also make it possible that Jon was born before the Trident

I got to writing a reply to this and it has gotten crazily out of hand to the point I wrote it in Word and copied with hidden sections in an attempt to make it manageable.  Forgive me for high-jacking this thread. 

I think the age discrepancy between Jon and Robb would be more prevalent if this was the case.  Something else that I am unclear on and perhaps someone can illuminate for me: in how quick succession were the events after the tourney of Harrenhal? The events and details, as I recall them, are:
1)The Tourney of Harrenhal occurred and we know that Brandon, Ned, Lyanna, Rhaegar, Jaime, Elia, Robert, Howland, Ashara, and Arthur (he was in attendance, too, correct?) were there, along with others.  Those are the notable ones that I remember. 
2) Brandon was heading to Riverrun to marry Catelyn, where he dueled Littlefinger. Around this time he also heard about Lyanna and took off to King's Landing.
3) Ned and Robert were in the Vale when Aerys demanded their heads from Jon Arryn.

If Brandon was going south to Riverrun, and Ned and Robert were already back in the Vale, it seems to me that the tourney of Harrenhal would have had to have occurred at least a month or two past. (**If Lord Rickard was riding south to the wedding in Riverrun with 200 men, it would seem that this wedding would be of enough importance for Ned to attend, who was already out of the treacherous Mountains of the Moon and in the Riverlands. But we know that Ned was in the Vale when Aerys demanded his head.  I point this out to say that I don't think the wedding was to occur soon after the tournament of Harrenhal.  I think there was a gap in time, which is why I think Brandon was riding south, not west.)  If I recall correctly, a hard ride south on the Kingsroad takes a fortnight from the Inn at the Crossroads to Kings Landing. My point - the time line here feels wonky.  I don't know if it is just me but the writing makes me feel like Lyanna's disappearance and the Tourney of Harrenhal were closer together and I don't think they really were when I work it out. I wonder if this is intentional. This is leading me to a thought that I hadn't considered until I started reading and thinking about the timeline. I think someone got pregnant at Harrenhal. 

This leads me to the following logic (**a note on my time frame – I try to use best estimates given the information we have been given in the text previously regarding travel distances, times, and conditions.  I presume some of my estimates will be under and some over but more or less will balance out):

 

Spoiler

If anyone got pregnant at the tournament of Harrenhal, it would be approximately a month or so until they realized it.  Let's say two months for the sake of argument and realism.  In that two month time frame, there should have been enough time for Brandon to return to Winterfell, Ned and Robert to the Vale and then Brandon to come back to Riverrun for his wedding to Catelyn.  He then has a fortnight/approx. 2 weeks of hard riding to get to King's Landing when he hears about Lyanna disappearing.  THEN, Rickard takes the retinue that was already heading south to Riverrun to King's Landing to demand Brandon's release.  If I am not mistaken, it takes a little over a month to ride from Winterfell to King's Landing (Cersei mentions this when they rode to Winterfell, but they surely took numerous rests and stops.  I am going to guess a hard ride would cut it by a week) At this point, we have two months + Brandon's two weeks of hard riding + Rickard's hard ride of 3.  Toss in time for ravens to fly because they do not have warp speed, and I would say you are about up to 3 - 3 1/2 months pregnant.  And this is being generous because, as we know, this was a FALSE SPRING. Winter rears its ugly head. It could be closer to 4 months.

Aerys then writes to Jon Arryn demanding the heads of Ned and Robert at the Eyrie. According to the westeros.org wiki, at this point the war is said to have officially started and last close to a year.  Ned and Robert were probably not the whole way up in the castle, as we know from Littlefinger and Sansa that during winter, the lords Arryn go to one of the lower castles.  It would notably take time though to get to Gulltown for Robert and to a ship for Ned to take to the Three Sisters. Traversing mountains, and, if I am not mistaken, the Lord of Gulltown was still loyal to the Targaryen's so that was a bit of a job to get Robert out, and we know that the Lord of one of the Sisters thought about sending the Targaryens Ned's head as well.  I am going to give this at least 2 weeks. (4 - 4 1/2 months pregnant)
Ned then had to get from the Sisters to White Harbor, White Harbor to Winterfell, rally the banners, and march south to meet with Jon Arryn in Riverrun and meet up with the Tully forces, in Winter. They then meet Robert for the Battle of the Bells (Robert has already been in the battle of Summerhall and the Battle of Ashford.)  I am giving this at least two months . But that is not certain.    (6 – 6 1/2 months pregnant)
Ned weds Catelyn, with Robert in attendance, and stays a fortnight - 2 weeks. (6 ½ - 7 months)
We know from Catelyn that she became pregnant, carried Robb to term (which is technically 10 months) and gave birth prior to Ned returning. 

Previously noted, the rebellion is marked at starting when Jon Arryn raised his banners and it is also noted as having ended at the Sack of King’s Landing, with the whole thing lasting a year.  If we count the two weeks of Ned and Robert to get out of the Vale, and then Ned’s two months to get to Riverrun and the Battle of the Bells, two weeks for the wedding, that leaves 9 months for the battle of the Trident to the Sack of King’s Landing.  I don’t think this is right. It is still winter, to be sure, but this figure is still off.  I think this means that there is more time between Ned and Robert leaving the Vale and getting to the Battle of the Bells.  I said at least two months earlier in this piece – I think it is closer to 4 months.  This leads me to believe that the Harrenhal baby is born between The Battle of the Trident and the Sack of King’s Landing. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

I have multiple essays on various subjects. If you're interested in discussing the Others you should check out my reread thread

Thanks! I will check it out.

[asongofheresy]

2 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Could the PtwP/AA prophecies have any links to the deaths of Rickard and Brandon?  Just an errant thought.

I believe you are correct as well. 

I got to writing a reply to this and it has gotten crazily out of hand to the point I wrote it in Word and copied with hidden sections in an attempt to make it manageable.  Forgive me for high-jacking this thread. 

I think the age discrepancy between Jon and Robb would be more prevalent if this was the case.  Something else that I am unclear on and perhaps someone can illuminate for me: in how quick succession were the events after the tourney of Harrenhal? The events and details, as I recall them, are:
1)The Tourney of Harrenhal occurred and we know that Brandon, Ned, Lyanna, Rhaegar, Jaime, Elia, Robert, Howland, Ashara, and Arthur (he was in attendance, too, correct?) were there, along with others.  Those are the notable ones that I remember. 
2) Brandon was heading to Riverrun to marry Catelyn, where he dueled Littlefinger. Around this time he also heard about Lyanna and took off to King's Landing.
3) Ned and Robert were in the Vale when Aerys demanded their heads from Jon Arryn.

If Brandon was going south to Riverrun, and Ned and Robert were already back in the Vale, it seems to me that the tourney of Harrenhal would have had to have occurred at least a month or two past. (**If Lord Rickard was riding south to the wedding in Riverrun with 200 men, it would seem that this wedding would be of enough importance for Ned to attend, who was already out of the treacherous Mountains of the Moon and in the Riverlands. But we know that Ned was in the Vale when Aerys demanded his head.  I point this out to say that I don't think the wedding was to occur soon after the tournament of Harrenhal.  I think there was a gap in time, which is why I think Brandon was riding south, not west.)  If I recall correctly, a hard ride south on the Kingsroad takes a fortnight from the Inn at the Crossroads to Kings Landing. My point - the time line here feels wonky.  I don't know if it is just me but the writing makes me feel like Lyanna's disappearance and the Tourney of Harrenhal were closer together and I don't think they really were when I work it out. I wonder if this is intentional. This is leading me to a thought that I hadn't considered until I started reading and thinking about the timeline. I think someone got pregnant at Harrenhal. 

This leads me to the following logic (**a note on my time frame – I try to use best estimates given the information we have been given in the text previously regarding travel distances, times, and conditions.  I presume some of my estimates will be under and some over but more or less will balance out):

 

  Reveal hidden contents

If anyone got pregnant at the tournament of Harrenhal, it would be approximately a month or so until they realized it.  Let's say two months for the sake of argument and realism.  In that two month time frame, there should have been enough time for Brandon to return to Winterfell, Ned and Robert to the Vale and then Brandon to come back to Riverrun for his wedding to Catelyn.  He then has a fortnight/approx. 2 weeks of hard riding to get to King's Landing when he hears about Lyanna disappearing.  THEN, Rickard takes the retinue that was already heading south to Riverrun to King's Landing to demand Brandon's release.  If I am not mistaken, it takes a little over a month to ride from Winterfell to King's Landing (Cersei mentions this when they rode to Winterfell, but they surely took numerous rests and stops.  I am going to guess a hard ride would cut it by a week) At this point, we have two months + Brandon's two weeks of hard riding + Rickard's hard ride of 3.  Toss in time for ravens to fly because they do not have warp speed, and I would say you are about up to 3 - 3 1/2 months pregnant.  And this is being generous because, as we know, this was a FALSE SPRING. Winter rears its ugly head. It could be closer to 4 months.

Aerys then writes to Jon Arryn demanding the heads of Ned and Robert at the Eyrie. According to the westeros.org wiki, at this point the war is said to have officially started and last close to a year.  Ned and Robert were probably not the whole way up in the castle, as we know from Littlefinger and Sansa that during winter, the lords Arryn go to one of the lower castles.  It would notably take time though to get to Gulltown for Robert and to a ship for Ned to take to the Three Sisters. Traversing mountains, and, if I am not mistaken, the Lord of Gulltown was still loyal to the Targaryen's so that was a bit of a job to get Robert out, and we know that the Lord of one of the Sisters thought about sending the Targaryens Ned's head as well.  I am going to give this at least 2 weeks. (4 - 4 1/2 months pregnant)
Ned then had to get from the Sisters to White Harbor, White Harbor to Winterfell, rally the banners, and march south to meet with Jon Arryn in Riverrun and meet up with the Tully forces, in Winter. They then meet Robert for the Battle of the Bells (Robert has already been in the battle of Summerhall and the Battle of Ashford.)  I am giving this at least two months . But that is not certain.    (6 – 6 1/2 months pregnant)
Ned weds Catelyn, with Robert in attendance, and stays a fortnight - 2 weeks. (6 ½ - 7 months)
We know from Catelyn that she became pregnant, carried Robb to term (which is technically 10 months) and gave birth prior to Ned returning. 

Previously noted, the rebellion is marked at starting when Jon Arryn raised his banners and it is also noted as having ended at the Sack of King’s Landing, with the whole thing lasting a year.  If we count the two weeks of Ned and Robert to get out of the Vale, and then Ned’s two months to get to Riverrun and the Battle of the Bells, two weeks for the wedding, that leaves 9 months for the battle of the Trident to the Sack of King’s Landing.  I don’t think this is right. It is still winter, to be sure, but this figure is still off.  I think this means that there is more time between Ned and Robert leaving the Vale and getting to the Battle of the Bells.  I said at least two months earlier in this piece – I think it is closer to 4 months.  This leads me to believe that the Harrenhal baby is born between The Battle of the Trident and the Sack of King’s Landing. 

 

 

Thanks! I will check it out.

I always saw AA/PTWP as separate myths but I believe AA has major connection to House Stark, through possible parents of Bran the Builder. I believe Bran was son of Brandon of the Bloody Blade and Rose of the Red Lake, both historical figures were children of Garth Greenhand but I don't think they were full siblings. Among Garth's children only Brandon is not listed as an ancestor of a House instead he is known for his Bloody Blade (reminds me Brandon Stark) and the fact he killed so many CotF that he turned Blue Lake to Red Lake. Ah yes, the lake was blue and Rose was originally called Rose of the Blue Lake. She was also a skinchanger that warged to Cranes. Rose, Jonquil, Narcissa all floral themes here. I believe Brandon's murder of CotF played a role in Long Night or the Blue Lake returned to Red after his sacrifice of Rose to create his only defining quality. I think that sword Lighbringer is Lady Forlorn from our story. It is said to be a blood thirsty lady, although it is stated as Andal sword I think it is possible Starks lost it during Hungry Wolf's time when they attacked Andalos. If I remember correctly it has a ruby heart and Sansa says it resembles Ice. I also don't remember if it is stated to be Valyrian sword or made form another material like Dawn, I will appreciate the help. The meaning of Forlorn is interesting too, it means many things like blue, sorrowful, tearful, melancholic, heartbroken, forsaken etc. And there is also an Irish myth of Neassa/Ness/Nissa many other spellings, Neassa was originally named Assa (gentle) and she was a woman warrior who was forced to marry at swordpoint and later she was called Ne-Assa (net gentle) as she become vengeful. 

[SirArthur]

1 hour ago, Lady Rhodes said:

1)The Tourney of Harrenhal occurred and we know that Brandon, Ned, Lyanna, Rhaegar, Jaime, Elia, Robert, Howland, Ashara, and Arthur (he was in attendance, too, correct?) were there, along with others.  Those are the notable ones that I remember. 

Aerys was there. Also fun fact: Aegon was born around the time of the tourney, so if Elia was there, he should not have been far away. 

1 hour ago, Lady Rhodes said:

2) Brandon was heading to Riverrun to marry Catelyn, where he dueled Littlefinger. Around this time he also heard about Lyanna and took off to King's Landing.

fun fact II: Arryn's heir was with Brandon

1 hour ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Previously noted, the rebellion is marked at starting when Jon Arryn raised his banners and it is also noted as having ended at the Sack of King’s Landing, with the whole thing lasting a year.  If we count the two weeks of Ned and Robert to get out of the Vale, and then Ned’s two months to get to Riverrun and the Battle of the Bells, two weeks for the wedding, that leaves 9 months for the battle of the Trident to the Sack of King’s Landing.  I don’t think this is right. It is still winter, to be sure, but this figure is still off.  I think this means that there is more time between Ned and Robert leaving the Vale and getting to the Battle of the Bells.  I said at least two months earlier in this piece – I think it is closer to 4 months.  This leads me to believe that the Harrenhal baby is born between The Battle of the Trident and the Sack of King’s Landing. 

here is the problem. harrenhal is late 281, bells early 283. So best scenario would be Mar 283 for Trident and the sack. And 14 month is too long for a baby.

 

1 hour ago, Lady Rhodes said:

 I think someone got pregnant at Harrenhal. 

ok, it's fantasy speculation time:

Most likely Ashara and Brandon (Ashara looked Stark). Ashara would be (as a lady in waiting ) under the protection of Elia and Brandon was already engaged with Catelyn. From there the conflict escalates and writes itself almost on its own. Rhaegar takes Lyanna hostage to force Brandon to marry Ashara. Brandon rides to KL to force Rhaegar to release Lyanna. Aerys does not understand the situation and kills Brandon together with Rickard and Elbert Arryn. 

I don't know why he wanted the head of Ned and Robert, most likely because they knew something from Harrenhal or Aerys got a wrong impression from what was going on. Jon Arryn said "fuck you" and the war was on. 

Oh and then Ashara has a stillborn child. And in the end Rhaegar died for the woman he loved (Elia). Oh and Lyanna hooked up with one of Rhaegars bodyguards.

- end fantasy time -

I don't know who got pregnant, however, given the fact that Aegon was born around the time of Harrenhal, I would deny that Rhaegar had anything to do with it and I would see the crowning of Lyanna at Harrenhal as the peak of the scandal. 

 

edit: I think benjen was also at Harrenhal

[asongofheresy]

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

Aerys was there. Also fun fact: Aegon was born around the time of the tourney, so if Elia was there, he should not have been far away. 

fun fact II: Arryn's heir was with Brandon

here is the problem. harrenhal is late 281, bells early 283. So best scenario would be Mar 283 for Trident and the sack. And 14 month is too long for a baby.

 

ok, it's fantasy speculation time:

Most likely Ashara and Brandon (Ashara looked Stark). Ashara would be (as a lady in waiting ) under the protection of Elia and Brandon was already engaged with Catelyn. From there the conflict escalates and writes itself almost on its own. Rhaegar takes Lyanna hostage to force Brandon to marry Ashara. Brandon rides to KL to force Rhaegar to release Lyanna. Aerys does not understand the situation and kills Brandon together with Rickard and Elbert Arryn. 

I don't know why he wanted the head of Ned and Robert, most likely because they knew something from Harrenhal or Aerys got a wrong impression from what was going on. Jon Arryn said "fuck you" and the war was on. 

Oh and then Ashara has a stillborn child. And in the end Rhaegar died for the woman he loved (Elia). Oh and Lyanna hooked up with one of Rhaegars bodyguards.

- end fantasy time -

I don't know who got pregnant, however, given the fact that Aegon was born around the time of Harrenhal, I would deny that Rhaegar had anything to do with it and I would see the crowning of Lyanna at Harrenhal as the peak of the scandal. 

 

edit: I think benjen was also at Harrenhal

Benjen was at Harrenhall and Aegon was born after False Spiring Ended (November/December of 281) so he was born in early 282. 

According to Ashara's own sister Ashara fall in love with Ned. I think the Stark she looked was Lyanna after her crowning we are also told Ned reached for the crown and he says there were thorns underneath. Rhaegar wouldn't give crap about a Dornish lady having an affair and having a bastard, and we are told there was nothing dishonorable between Ned and Ashara because Brandon was alive and bethored to Catelyn. 

What would Ned and Ashara do if there was a child after Harrenhall, a marriage was always possible before deaths of Brandon and Rickon. But it is also not out of reach to speculate Ned and Ashara met after the tourney since Ned was in the Vale and Ashara was with Elia at Dragonstone. 

[Melifeather]

Marriages are usually arranged for political reasons and the Starks and Daynes wouldn’t be looking to align their Houses. They ended up on opposing sides of the Rebellion.

[asongofheresy]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Marriages are usually arranged for political reasons and the Starks and Daynes wouldn’t be looking to align their Houses. They ended up on opposing sides of the Rebellion.

True but Ned wasn't bethored to anyone when both Brandon and Lyanna was expected to marry this allows him to have a marriage for love if Rickard didn't had a name in mind. + Ashara was Lady in Waiting to Princess Elia future Queen Consort and Arthur was member of KG and friend to Rhaegar, future King. That will make it possible for Ned to have a seat at Rhaegar's council with Lyanna married to King's Cousin, a son + Jon Arryn and Hosted Tully - Southern block had the upper hand. 

[SirArthur]

11 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

What would Ned and Ashara do if there was a child after Harrenhall,

Bear Island and Lyness Hightower all over again ?

[asongofheresy]

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

Bear Island and Lyness Hightower all over again ?

What makes you think so? I did talk about a marriage between Ned and Ashara having advantage for House Stark and Southern Alliance and if Ashara was in love with Ned like her sister said then there is no reason to think they will be like Jorah and Lynesse + Ned and Ashara had a better chance to live in South imo. There is a good choice Catelyn and Brandon may end up like Bear Island couple if Catelyn come to envy Ashara living in South while she is stuck in WF. 

[Melifeather]

11 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

True but Ned wasn't bethored to anyone when both Brandon and Lyanna was expected to marry this allows him to have a marriage for love if Rickard didn't had a name in mind. + Ashara was Lady in Waiting to Princess Elia future Queen Consort and Arthur was member of KG and friend to Rhaegar, future King. That will make it possible for Ned to have a seat at Rhaegar's council with Lyanna married to King's Cousin, a son + Jon Arryn and Hosted Tully - Southern block had the upper hand. 

I suspect that Ashara became pregnant at the Harrenhal tourney, but wouldn’t have realized it for 6-8 weeks later. By then Lyanna may have gone missing and the tensions between the Starks and the crown would have made any marriage alliance between their Houses politically at odds.

[asongofheresy]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

I suspect that Ashara became pregnant at the Harrenhal tourney, but wouldn’t have realized it for 6-8 weeks later. By then Lyanna may have gone missing and the tensions between the Starks and the crown would have made any marriage alliance between their Houses politically at odds.

True, the relationship is only possible through an AU where R+L doesn't happen. I think Ned and Ashara lost their chance at love once Lyanna was gone.    :( 

[SirArthur]

28 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

True, the relationship is only possible through an AU where R+L doesn't happen. I think Ned and Ashara lost their chance at love once Lyanna was gone.    :( 

I don't think so. Romanticism is all fair and good, but in the case of Rhaegar + Lyanna we have a mayor conflict between House Nymeria Martell and House Targaryen. Aerys could only hold Dorne in line in the final days of the rebellion, because he took Elia as a hostage. 

And then we have a story where Rhaegar hides in Dorne after he bones Lyanna while Elia is pregnant with Aegon. wtf ?

If you romaticise R+L, there is no reason why you can't romaticise A+N in the same story. Your suggestion that the one relationshsip is possible and the other is not, makes no sense for me. Either both should be possible or none should be possible.

[JNR]

17 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Also fun fact: Aegon was born around the time of the tourney

Well... this is actually a thing that has changed over the years.  Or maybe it didn't. 

The World book account does read as if Aegon was born shortly after the tourney.

However, GRRM reportedly said in an SSM that Aegon was about a year old at the time of the Sack, give or take.  Since roughly two years seem to separate Harrenhal and the Sack, this would mean Aegon was born quite a while after Harrenhal -- maybe as much as a year later.

GRRM is also on record telling us in 2014 that the World book is not always accurate about the sequence of recent events:

Quote

The book is written from the viewpoint of a maester at the Citadel, one who hopes to pass its knowledge on to someone sitting on the Iron Throne. As such, the author may have … rearranged events to suit the interests of a particular royal family. “So who knows if it’s really true or not!” Martin chuckled.

So which account we choose to believe -- the SSM or the World book -- is up to us. 

However, if we choose to believe the SSM, some very interesting deductions become possible.

[asongofheresy]

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

I don't think so. Romanticism is all fair and good, but in the case of Rhaegar + Lyanna we have a mayor conflict between House Nymeria Martell and House Targaryen. Aerys could only hold Dorne in line in the final days of the rebellion, because he took Elia as a hostage. 

And then we have a story where Rhaegar hides in Dorne after he bones Lyanna while Elia is pregnant with Aegon. wtf ?

If you romaticise R+L, there is no reason why you can't romaticise A+N in the same story. Your suggestion that the one relationshsip is possible and the other is not, makes no sense for me. Either both should be possible or none should be possible.

I do think R+L is impossible in the same sense as N+A, with N+A I see star-crossed lovers, a situation where families end up at opposite sides during a war. With R+L I see them as Elia Sand and Nate from Arianne's TWOW chapters with Arianne/Elia Martell as voice of reason. 

[SirArthur]

 

22 minutes ago, JNR said:

 GRRM is also on record telling us in 2014 that the World book is not always accurate about the sequence of recent events:

So which account we choose to believe -- the SSM or the World book -- is up to us. 

However, if we choose to believe the SSM, some very interesting deductions become possible.

Well, it is possible if Harrenhal is at the end of 281, Aegon is born early 282 (around mar), battle of the Bells is jan 283 and the sack is apr 283. And Dany (per her POV) is born jan 284. 

But it is very dense. This however would explain Tywin's late arrival, he needs 2 month to marshall an army after Bells and reach King's Landing. The only thing that does not make sense is the weather. During winter no armies should be able to move that fast.

 

edit: This would also place summer in Jan, as Dany was supposed to be born in summer. 

We could alter the story by placing Dany in the summer of 283, this would mean she was conceived (in that dense timeline) before Bells. But this is prob. too late for Rickard's burning. That would make Jon a harrenhal baby. All very speculative.

[JNR]

On 12/15/2018 at 9:54 AM, SirArthur said:

Well, it is possible if Harrenhal is at the end of 281, Aegon is born early 282 (around mar), battle of the Bells is jan 283 and the sack is apr 283.

You mean as a way of reconciling the SSM and the World book so they're both true?

This would just about work, yes, though as you say it's a pretty tight fit, and means there was only about 1.5 years between Harrenhal and the Sack, instead of the two years that the canon implies.

I think we may find out in TWOW, if it ever comes out, what the truth of this matter is.  The question of when Aegon was born has some impressive ramifications for this book series.

[asongofheresy]

On 12/15/2018 at 5:54 PM, SirArthur said:

 

Well, it is possible if Harrenhal is at the end of 281, Aegon is born early 282 (around mar), battle of the Bells is jan 283 and the sack is apr 283. And Dany (per her POV) is born jan 284. 

But it is very dense. This however would explain Tywin's late arrival, he needs 2 month to marshall an army after Bells and reach King's Landing. The only thing that does not make sense is the weather. During winter no armies should be able to move that fast.

 

edit: This would also place summer in Jan, as Dany was supposed to be born in summer. 

We could alter the story by placing Dany in the summer of 283, this would mean she was conceived (in that dense timeline) before Bells. But this is prob. too late for Rickard's burning. That would make Jon a harrenhal baby. All very speculative.

We know storms in Narrow Sea occurs in Autumn and Winter - I think a Jon ADWD chapter discuss this - so it is interesting Daenerys claims a strong summer storm hitting Dragonstone? Does Stannis ever says the fact Dany and Vis escaped him because of a storm?