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Jon Snow's Real Name

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On 7/19/2019 at 8:06 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Besides any of that we are talking about the Heir to the IT & his wife & children. Most of the realm would know their names. Lyanna some how missed out on hearing any of that? How? 

Possibly because of The North's specifics.

They are not like the rest of Westeros' regions. They're the only ones, that weren't conquered by Andals. Nearly all of them are not worshipers of the Seven. There's nearly no knights among them. As far as I remember, none of Northerners were part of royal court (except Cregan Stark, who was the Hand of the King for only one day). I could be wrong about this, but I don't remember any Starks, or members of other prominent Northern Houses, being in Small Council, or any of their women being ladies-in-waiting at Targaryen court, any Northerners as members of Kingsguards, any Northerners getting married with Lord/Lady of any other region (Jorah Mormont and Lynesse Hightower doesn't count, because she is not her father's heir, she's not the Lady of Hightower, and Hightowers are not even rulling family of The Reach, so it's not the same, as a marriage of a Northerner with a Lord/Lady of a rulling southern House), any Northerner becoming High Septon or Grand Maester, etc. And their location is the furthest from King's Landing. They live a harsh life. Even in summer it's snow everywhere. They rarely (if ever) travel anywhere. Their social circle is very limited. We get a basic idea of how The North is detatched on many levels from the rest of Westeros, based on what kind of life lived in The North Catelyn Tully and Lynesse Hightower, how it was different, lesser, from what sort of lives they had, before they got married with Northern Lords, and came to live in The North.

The way The North was presented to the readers in the beginning of AGOT, it's significally different from what The North was like prior Robert's Rebellion, prior Ned Stark's marriage with Catelyn Tully, prior Ned's best friend becoming the King of 7K, prior Ned's foster father (Jon Arryn, who is a Valeman/southron) becoming the Hand of the King, prior Ned's children were raised by their southron mother with one leg in a godswood and one leg in a sept (figuratively speaking); prior Greyjoy's Rebellion, for oppression of which, the King himself came to The North, etc.

So, in my opinion, The North, the way it was prior Lyanna's kidnapping, was significally more detatched from the rest of Westeros, than it is now. Northerners of those times were not interested, in what was going on below The Neck. Rickard Stark sending one of his sons to be fostered at The Vale; arranging marriage of his other son with a Riverlander, and not just any Riverlander, but a daughter of Lord Tully, who was the ruler of Riverlands; arranging marriage of his daughter with a son of Stormlander's Lord, was atypical behaviour for a Northerner. But even so, his ambitions weren't aimed at the Targaryen court. As far as we know, Lyanna never even visited King's Landing, same with Ned, and the rest of Starks, prior Brandon's stupid escapade there. Thus, it's unlikely, that Targaryens or their court were frequently, if ever, discussed or gossiped about at the Stark's table (or fireplace) at Winterfell. Furthermore, the most common place to discuss such a topic, as Targaryen prince and his royal family, is amongst women, while they are doing embroidery, or whatever they were doing in their spare time. And, based on Arya, if Lyanna was like her, then I think that Lyanna rarely took part in gossips or listened them. It's more likely, that most of her time, she was spending outside, riding horses or fighting with a stick sword against Benjen, or even climbing towers and trees like Bran.

Did Arya knew about Tommen's existance, prior he and other Baratheon-Lannisters arrived to Winterfell? I don't think so. And their fathers were sort of brothers, while Aerys and Rickard were strangers to each other. Thus, there was no reason for Lyanna to be interested in Prince Rhaegar, prior she met him at Harrenhal. And afterwards, it's unlikely, that if she got interested in him (sexually or romantically) that what she wanted to find out about him, is how many children does he have, or what their names are. Also, wouldn't it be weird, and thus noted by others, if Lyanna suddenly started to ask questions about Targaryen court, Dragonstone, Crown Prince's family, if never before she had ever showed any interest in social gossips about southron affairs?

So that's how she could have missed out on hearing anything Rhaegar-related, prior and even after she met him at Harrenhal. And when he "kidnapped" her, they had other things to do, and talk about.

On 7/19/2019 at 8:06 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

In fact if fAegon is indeed fake that makes Jon the 6th right?

No. Just think about it - if fAegon will be revealed to the citizens of 7K, as supposedly long lost and now found son of Rhaegar Targaryen, and if he will be referred to as the King Aegon VI Targaryen, and then later it will be also revealed, that Jon Snow is Rhaegar's son, and his name is also Aegon Targaryen, while fAegon is an imposter, then, not to get the two Aegons confused, people will title Jon as Aegon VII, not Aegon VI. Because, if both of them will be recorded in history as Aegon VI, then it will be a total mess. King Tommen Baratheon, who was revealed to be a bastard of Jaime Lannister, and not son of ex-King Rober Baratheon. Then King Aegon VI Targaryen, who died young, and was also revealed to be a fake Prince. Then King Aegon VI Targaryen, who originally lived under the name Jon Snow. If they all are lister one after the other, then it's understandable who is who. But if one of those Aegons will be discussed separately, and if someone in conversation will mention Aegon VI, then which Aegon exactly does that person means, will have to be additionally specified - it's that Aegon VI, who used to be a Snow, not that other Aegon VI, who turned out to be a Blackfyre pretender.

That's why Jon will be given a new number.

Similar things did happened in real life. And under those circumstances, the new King, took the same name, but +1 number after it, to distinguish himself from his predecessor, who was a carrier of the same name.

On 7/19/2019 at 8:06 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Also if fAegon is fake we would then have Rhaegar's son with Elia named Aegon, fAegon, & then Jon named Aegon. Not even 2 but 3 of them in the same generation, 2 of which are siblings. It's too much. 

There's only one Aegon Targaryen in current generation, the one who goes under name Jon Snow. Elia's son is dead, so he is irrelevant. And fAegon is a Blackfyre. Probably, Aegon is not even his real name. Most likely, prior he turned 5 years old, and was brought to Jon Connington, he had a different name, but something similar to Aegon, only more Blackfyre-like, like amongs Targaryens there was Daeron and Blackfyres had Daemon, Targaryen had Aerys and Blackfyres had Aenys.

So, fAegon could actually be Haegon, like fourth son of Daemon I Blackfyre.

On 7/19/2019 at 8:06 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Point 3. I'm sorry but you kind of lost me here. What does Rhaego have to do with it? For what it's worth I highly doubt he is alive. I would love it if he was though. 

I meant that Rhaego is a Targaryen/Valyrian name. And it's his real name, i.e. it was given to him by his mother. While Jon is, most likely, a fake name, given to Lyanna's son by his uncle. So, there will be a need to change Jon's name, and no need to change Rhaego's name. His name is variation of name Rhaegar, same as Rhae (one of Egg's sisters), Rhaella, Rhaelle, Rhaenyra, Rhaenys, Rhaegel. So, one typical male Targaryen name is already used, and one of the remaining heads of the dragon has to be Aegon. The third one is a female, Dany, thus the only other ramaining candidate to take name Aegon, is Jon. Rhaegar was convinced, that one of three heads of the dragon, the Prince that was Promised, will be Aegon. And I don't mean a specific Aegon, I mean this name in general. Rhaegar's conviction was probably based on Aegon the Conqueror's name. So, if he was correct, and one of the dragon's heads has to be Aegon, then, because the other confirmed Targaryen, Rhaego, already has a "real" name, then, most likely, Jon is it. He is Aegon.

Furthermore, if you look at the history of Targaryen dynasty, then you'll see, that three people, that have influenced the fate of their House the most, are Dany, Aegon and Rhaegar. The previous Dany, Daenys the Dreamer, saved her family and their dragons, by predicting the Doom of Valyria. Aegon conquered Westeros, and united its hundreds kingdoms under one ruler (minus Dorne). And Rhaegar, by kidnapping Lyanna Stark, caused birth of his son Jon Snow, his sister Daenerys Targaryen, and even her own child's birth. Because without Robert's Rebellion, Dany would have never went to Essos, or at least would have definitely not married with a Dothraki Khal, and thus, didn't became the mother of the Stallion that Mounts the World. It seems that, what the three of them will bring into the fold, is what makes them part of the dragon from the prophecy. Jon is wielder of Lightbringer, Dany is the Mother of dragons, and Rhaego is the Stallion that Mounts the World. And his contribution into the War against the Others, is to bring Dothraki to Westeros, and to make them his holy warriors. In the Bible, the Promised Prince, Jesus, was called King of kings and Lord of lords (like in ASOIAF's prophecy Rhaego was called Khal of khals, which translates as King of kings; and in one of the visions Dany described him as a tall lord, so he will become a Lord, even though he will also be a Dothraki Khal), and he was followed by an army of horsemen on white horses, and those warriors fought against Evil in the battle of Apocalypse. 

There was a prophecy about the Stallion. Which makes Rhaego a Promised Prince. The return of the dragons was also described, as one of the Promised Prince's/Princesse's characteristics. So Dany is also one of the three. And one of the three, whose song is The Song of Ice and Fire (what Rhaegar said about the Promised Prince), is Aegon. And if fAegon is a Blackfyre, then, even if Aegon is his real name, it doesn't matter, because if he is not descendant of Aerys and Rhaella, then he is not one of the three. Because the dragon from that prophecy, given to Targaryens by the Ghost of High Heart, is of Aerys' and Rhaella's blood, and if fAegon is a Blackfyre, then he is out of the picture, as a candidate. Thus, we have a vacant spot, for a guy, whose name is Aegon. And what sort of relevance does name Jon hold for Lyanna or Rhaegar? - One of Lyanna's brothers was fostered by a guy called Jon Arryn. That's not enough to name her son after him. One of Rhaegar's squires, and he had a lot of them, was named Jon Connington. That's also not a strong enough basis for Rhaegar to name his son Jon. Thus, Jon is a name, given to the boy by his uncle, for whom that name was relevant. 

On 7/19/2019 at 8:06 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Lord Varys made quite a good argument for Jon being named Aerys, so Aegon being the 'best' Targaryen name is up for debate also. 

And round and round we go. I vote for Aegon. :):cheers:

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On 7/18/2019 at 3:43 PM, Lord Varys said:

There is no textual evidence indicating that Rhaegar Targaryen ever wanted a daughter or saw his daughter Rhaenys as one of the dragon heads. There is only textual evidence that he wanted to have sons, plural.

 

There is evidence that Kevan and Cersei Lannister made the natural assumption that Rhaegar, like any lord or future king, wanted sons. Beyond that is your own extrapolation. However, I am charitable enough to admit your explanation is a possibility, rather than applying your own standard which would read—there is no textual evidence indicating Rhaegar wanted multiple sons.

On 7/18/2019 at 3:43 PM, Lord Varys said:

There is also no textual evidence and no (good) reason to believe Rhaegar wanted to recreate Aegon and his sister-wives. Nothing indicates that those dragon heads were believed to be a guy and two women. Why not only three guys? The fact that nobody ever contemplated the idea that the so-called promised prince could be female (which apparently isn't exactly an esoteric interpretation considering that the Valyrian word for 'dragon' apparently doesn't identify a particular gender) does suggests that the guys didn't think women were involved or played a role in this manly savior prophecy thing.

 

Yes, there is. The fact there is a popular and intuitive theory that he was trying to recreate, in name, the original trio proves you are wrong or at least proves you are constraining the definition of "textual evidence" in an unuseful way.

On 7/18/2019 at 3:43 PM, Lord Varys said:

And while it is possible that the Conqueror sort of deluded himself into believing he and his sister-wives were fulfilling the prophecy it is also possible their choice of heraldry is just a vague reference to that prophecy, not something they took all that seriously.

 

We probably don't know the whole story behind everything to do with the invasion, especially in the case that it ties into current events, prophetically or otherwise.

On 7/18/2019 at 3:43 PM, Lord Varys said:

There happen to be a lot of male Targaryen dragon heads to be around at the time Prince Aegon was born. There is King Aerys II himself, of course, who might be discounted as dragon head because he is supposed to be part of the generation who brings forth the promised prince, then there is Rhaegar himself, and his brother Viserys. We can ignore Rhaenys and Rhaegar's mother Rhaella and still get a scenario where Rhaegar feels has to produce another dragon head - namely if he thought either he or his brother Viserys was the first dragon head, followed by his son Aegon as the second.

 

Except that apparently, Rhaegar didn't think the third dragon head had been born yet by the time Aegon was. Based on textual evidence, of course.

On 7/18/2019 at 3:43 PM, Lord Varys said:

I'd say that if two dragon heads were seen to be possibly or definitely female then it is rather unbelievable that nobody thought this might go for the promised prince, too.

 

You're plainly conflating the THotD with the PtwP. I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish in doing so.

On 7/18/2019 at 3:43 PM, Lord Varys said:

Thanks for the flowers. Please also confirm that I'm not paying you to write things as flattering as this ;-).

In general:

We are discussing hypothetical scenarios. Either you don't understand Occam's Razor or you don't want to apply it. George would have to think in a rather convoluted way and he would have to needlessly make things more complicated for himself if he wanted 'Aegon' to be Jon Snow's real name in the series he has written. There were a lot of steps along the road where he could have made things easier without giving the name away.

 

Why on earth would you assume that GRRM would want to make this hypothetical solution uncomplicated? Occam's Razor is poorly applied here, and certainly not the default assumption.

On 7/18/2019 at 3:43 PM, Lord Varys said:

The idea that he creates a scenario where the name Aegon is essentially the least likely (Targaryen) name of Jon Snow only to come up with a convoluted story to explain away this problem is not very likely. That's not how he operates usually - he only explains away things post hoc when he wrote ridiculous nonsense like arrows hitting and killing men at the top of 700 feet high ice wall.

 

If GRRM didn't create a scenario where Aegon was the most unlikely name for Jon Snow, it would be the most obvious. So, he would have a motive to create exactly this type of scenario with it's "convoluted story" needed to explain away the obstacle if Aegon was indeed the name.

On 7/18/2019 at 3:43 PM, Lord Varys said:

And if we enter into symbolic discussion then we basically talk about personal preferences - which is irrelevant when you care about what kind of arguments the text as such offers us as likely possibilities for Jon's hypothetical Targaryen names. Because, quite frankly, I can make a case that Jon Snow is another Aerys Targaryen. After all, it is the prototypical Targaryen royal name in the sense it is royal Targaryen name we get the most in the novels (nobody talks much about Aegons in the books), just as Aerys II is the dead king that's most often referenced. A Jon Snow claiming the throne as King Aerys III Targaryen would also reinforce the symbolic number of three which is actually connected to House Targaryen (three-headed dragon, three dragon heads, all the threesomes revolving around Dany, etc.).

2

:huh: 

:lol:

On 7/18/2019 at 3:43 PM, Lord Varys said:

Whereas people babbling on about the symbolic meaning of seven is not exactly something that's particularly strong in relation to House Targaryen. Despite the fact that the Seven are the gods of the Andals, the number seven doesn't really come up often in meaningful contexts. Instead this seems to be a rather abstract symbolism reflected in seven-sided buildings, seven oils, etc.

1

People who write walls of text proposing the kind of ideas above should probably restrain from accusing others of "babbling." As for the rest of the paragraph, one of the most basic concepts of R+L=J, as it pertains to Jon's identity, is that he's not just a Targaryen. So, theoretically, he would bring more to the table symbolically than just the Targaryen portion of his identity.

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5 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

There is evidence that Kevan and Cersei Lannister made the natural assumption that Rhaegar, like any lord or future king, wanted sons. Beyond that is your own extrapolation. However, I am charitable enough to admit your explanation is a possibility, rather than applying your own standard which would read—there is no textual evidence indicating Rhaegar wanted multiple sons.

There is textual evidence that Rhaegar Targaryen wanted sons while there is no textual evidence that he wanted or expected to have daughters.

It might be not the best textual evidence imaginable - but guess what: You have no textual evidence for the idea that Rhaegar wanted/expected to have daughters, or that daughters play any role or are awarded any kind of significance in the prophecy about the promised prince.

To put it simply: The score is 1:0 for Rhaegar the Son-Lover against Rhaegar the Daughter-Lover.

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Yes, there is. The fact there is a popular and intuitive theory that he was trying to recreate, in name, the original trio proves you are wrong or at least proves you are constraining the definition of "textual evidence" in an unuseful way.

LOL, nobody cares about popular or intuitive theories based on things that aren't there. At least not people who are intellectually honest.

The fact that Rhaegar did name his daughter Rhaenys rather than Visenya is all the evidence we need to conclude that he had no intention to recreate the Conqueror and his sister-wives and that he also did not expect that fate/the gods would only grant him three children in a rather specific birth order.

This was always a silly and stupid theory, one that goes back to the days when we basically knew next to nothing about the Targaryen family tree and the prophecy of the promised. But AFfC and ADwD and everything that came afterwards effectively killed all that.

Quote

We probably don't know the whole story behind everything to do with the invasion, especially in the case that it ties into current events, prophetically or otherwise.

While this is true, we never had any reason to believe the prophecy of the promised prince is connected in any meaningful way to the Conquest. In a delusional way, perhaps - Aegon I deluding himself he was fulfilling prophecy by conquering the Seven Kingdoms. But it is crystal clear the Targaryens never cared much about the promised prince prophecy - and they definitely didn't figure out or cared to figure out what 'the savior' is supposed to fight against. If they had, the Wall and the NW would be a much more important priority to the kings than they actually were. And that includes Aerys II and Rhaegar and Maester Aemon. None of them understood what the prophecy was about - if it is about the Others, of course.

Quote

Except that apparently, Rhaegar didn't think the third dragon head had been born yet by the time Aegon was. Based on textual evidence, of course.

Sure, it is quite clear he thought there was still a need for a third head. But I didn't say Rhaegar did believe or had to believe that his dad, his brother, and he himself had to be one of the heads - just that they were still out there as candidates.

The idea that Rhaegar saw himself or Viserys or his father as one of the heads is on the table. Because there is no indication he ever thought his daughter Rhaenys was special or important in any way, shape, or form.

I'm personally inclined to believe Rhaegar dismissed his dad because of his madness, age, and the fact that he was the progenitor rather than a part of the prophecy of the savior guy, and possibly himself, too, when he deluded himself into believing his son was the promised prince.

But Prince Viserys is only a couple of years older than Aegon - and a son of the crucial Targaryen couple, Aerys II and Rhaella - meaning he fits nicely as one of the dragon heads at Rhaegar's side.

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You're plainly conflating the THotD with the PtwP. I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish in doing so.

No, I'm just referring to the prophecy as Maester Aemon talks about it. If he and Rhaegar had believed that the promised prince would be surrounded or assisted by two sister(-wive)s then it is rather outlandish that nobody ever thought the promised prince could be a girl, too. Not to mention that it would then be nonsensical that (1) anyone ever believed Rhaegar was the promised prince considering he was a firstborn son with no older sister, and (2) Maester Aemon actually considered that he himself could be one of the dragon heads at Daenerys' side after he concluded she was the promised princess. Maester Aemon isn't exactly Dany's older sister or brother, right? He isn't even a descendant of Aerys II and Rhaella.

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Why on earth would you assume that GRRM would want to make this hypothetical solution uncomplicated? Occam's Razor is poorly applied here, and certainly not the default assumption.

LOL, because that's how George usually works. He doesn't make things overly complicated for himself intentionally.

Quote

If GRRM didn't create a scenario where Aegon was the most unlikely name for Jon Snow, it would be the most obvious. So, he would have a motive to create exactly this type of scenario with it's "convoluted story" needed to explain away the obstacle if Aegon was indeed the name.

And LOL again. It is ludicrous to assume George gives a damn whether people would 'figure out' (i.e. meaning correctly guess) Jon Snow's Targaryen name. He never gave any hints what that name is, and there is no reason to assume he would care if people correctly guessed the name. If it is no new name it is rather easy to guess it anyway: just draw up a list of all the known Targaryen names. And even a new one could be corrected guessed by inventing some new Targaryen-sounding names.

Quote

 People who write walls of text proposing the kind of ideas above should probably restrain from accusing others of "babbling." As for the rest of the paragraph, one of the most basic concepts of R+L=J, as it pertains to Jon's identity, is that he's not just a Targaryen. So, theoretically, he would bring more to the table symbolically than just the Targaryen portion of his identity.

And again: Nobody who is intellectually honest would make this nonsensical case of special pleading here. If Jon Snow has a Targaryen name he is a Targaryen as much as any Targaryen before or after him. He lives in a patriarchal world, a world where identity via a family name goes with the name of the father. Robert Baratheon is a Baratheon, not an Estermont. Robb Stark is a Stark, not a Tully, Mace Tyrell is a Tyrell, not a Redwyne. Edmure Tully is a Tully, not a Whent. Arianne Martell is a Martell, not some Norvoshi, etc.

If you wanted Jon's true name to reflect the non-Targaryen side of his identity you would not argue for a Targaryen given name, would you? He should then have a Stark name, say, Brandon or Rickard Targaryen. If he is [Targaryen given name] Targaryen then he is both a Targaryen by house and by given name.

The idea that Jon Snow is the single character where 'the female/motherly element' is suddenly very important for his existence and identity is ludicrous in a world where children are bearing the family name of their fathers.

Edited by Lord Varys

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7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is textual evidence that Rhaegar Targaryen wanted sons while there is no textual evidence that he wanted or expected to have daughters.

 

No, there is textual evidence that Kevan and Cersei assumed or believed he did.

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It might be not the best textual evidence imaginable - but guess what: You have no textual evidence for the idea that Rhaegar wanted/expected to have daughters, or that daughters play any role or are awarded any kind of significance in the prophecy about the promised prince.

To put it simply: The score is 1:0 for Rhaegar the Son-Lover against Rhaegar the Daughter-Lover.

 

Simply untrue. You think you're in charge of deciding what does or does not count as textual evidence but you're not.

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, nobody cares about popular or intuitive theories based on things that aren't there. At least not people who are intellectually honest.

 

I remember when you were translating TWoIaF and you discussed spoilers from the book under the guise of your own ideas. That was incredibly underhanded if not unethical. You are no one to sit in judgment of another's honesty, intellectual or otherwise.

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The fact that Rhaegar did name his daughter Rhaenys rather than Visenya is all the evidence we need to conclude that he had no intention to recreate the Conqueror and his sister-wives and that he also did not expect that fate/the gods would only grant him three children in a rather specific birth order.

This was always a silly and stupid theory, one that goes back to the days when we basically knew next to nothing about the Targaryen family tree and the prophecy of the promised. But AFfC and ADwD and everything that came afterwards effectively killed all that.

3

We do not know what Rhaegar had been planning when his first child was born and named Rhaenys. But then he had a son and called him Aegon, and mentioned that there must be one more dragon head. The original three heads of the dragon were Visenya, Aegon, and Rhaenys. The fact that he has named two of his children Aegon and Rhaenys and he also mentions that there must be one more dragon head suggests an extremely obvious candidate for the third dragon head's name—Visenya. Why does Rhaenys precede the hypothetical Visenya here? Another obvious answer suggests itself—Because all Targaryens are descended from her, and none from Visenya.

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

While this is true, we never had any reason to believe the prophecy of the promised prince is connected in any meaningful way to the Conquest. In a delusional way, perhaps - Aegon I deluding himself he was fulfilling prophecy by conquering the Seven Kingdoms. But it is crystal clear the Targaryens never cared much about the promised prince prophecy - and they definitely didn't figure out or cared to figure out what 'the savior' is supposed to fight against. If they had, the Wall and the NW would be a much more important priority to the kings than they actually were. And that includes Aerys II and Rhaegar and Maester Aemon. None of them understood what the prophecy was about - if it is about the Others, of course.

 

This all remains to be seen.

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, it is quite clear he thought there was still a need for a third head. But I didn't say Rhaegar did believe or had to believe that his dad, his brother, and he himself had to be one of the heads - just that they were still out there as candidates.

 

Except that the text suggests that Rhaegar believed otherwise. Maybe GRRM is trying to trick us, but the common reading of that scene from the HotU is that Rhaegar believes his son with Elia is the PtwP and also one of the dragon heads, along with his sister.

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea that Rhaegar saw himself or Viserys or his father as one of the heads is on the table. Because there is no indication he ever thought his daughter Rhaenys was special or important in any way, shape, or form.

 

Except that his newborn by Elia is the subject of Rhaegar's dialogue, so when he says that there must be one more because the dragon has three heads, the natural reading is that Aegon and Rhaenys are the first two, according to Rhaegar. He's saying he must have another child, and as such is equating his children with the THotD.

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm personally inclined to believe Rhaegar dismissed his dad because of his madness, age, and the fact that he was the progenitor rather than a part of the prophecy of the savior guy, and possibly himself, too, when he deluded himself into believing his son was the promised prince.

But Prince Viserys is only a couple of years older than Aegon - and a son of the crucial Targaryen couple, Aerys II and Rhaella - meaning he fits nicely as one of the dragon heads at Rhaegar's side.

 

Again, this is not what the text indicates. What little it does points to Rhaenys and Aegon so far, with another child, likely a girl, IMO, to be the third and final head.

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

No, I'm just referring to the prophecy as Maester Aemon talks about it. If he and Rhaegar had believed that the promised prince would be surrounded or assisted by two sister(-wive)s then it is rather outlandish that nobody ever thought the promised prince could be a girl, too. Not to mention that it would then be nonsensical that (1) anyone ever believed Rhaegar was the promised prince considering he was a firstborn son with no older sister, and (2) Maester Aemon actually considered that he himself could be one of the dragon heads at Daenerys' side after he concluded she was the promised princess. Maester Aemon isn't exactly Dany's older sister or brother, right? He isn't even a descendant of Aerys II and Rhaella.

2

Except that Aemon explains nobody looked for a girl. They all just assumed it was a prince, not a princess. What Aemon comes to believe in his last days is irrelevant to what Rhaegar believed when his son with Elia was born. The circumstances are much different, obviously. Maester Aemon is reacting to the belief that he is the only other living Targaryen, as well as the sickness that will eventually claim his life.

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, because that's how George usually works. He doesn't make things overly complicated for himself intentionally.

 

I do not recognize your authority on how GRRM usually does or does not work. So, maybe try a different approach. One that does not involve elevating your opinion to the realm of fact and truth...

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And LOL again. It is ludicrous to assume George gives a damn whether people would 'figure out' (i.e. meaning correctly guess) Jon Snow's Targaryen name. He never gave any hints what that name is, and there is no reason to assume he would care if people correctly guessed the name. If it is no new name it is rather easy to guess it anyway: just draw up a list of all the known Targaryen names. And even a new one could be corrected guessed by inventing some new Targaryen-sounding names.

 

Which is what you do here, too. Not only that, but you continually argue in bad faith. I've pointed out textual evidence in support of this theory on several different occasions only for you to declare that none exists. Yet you accuse me of intellectual dishonesty.

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And again: Nobody who is intellectually honest would make this nonsensical case of special pleading here. If Jon Snow has a Targaryen name he is a Targaryen as much as any Targaryen before or after him. He lives in a patriarchal world, a world where identity via a family name goes with the name of the father. Robert Baratheon is a Baratheon, not an Estermont. Robb Stark is a Stark, not a Tully, Mace Tyrell is a Tyrell, not a Redwyne. Edmure Tully is a Tully, not a Whent. Arianne Martell is a Martell, not some Norvoshi, etc.

1

I'm not sure if you're missing the point on purpose here, and I don't really care at this point. If you weren't unable to understand what I said, you'd be unwilling.

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If you wanted Jon's true name to reflect the non-Targaryen side of his identity you would not argue for a Targaryen given name, would you? He should then have a Stark name, say, Brandon or Rickard Targaryen. If he is [Targaryen given name] Targaryen then he is both a Targaryen by house and by given name.

The idea that Jon Snow is the single character where 'the female/motherly element' is suddenly very important for his existence and identity is ludicrous in a world where children are bearing the family name of their fathers.

2

I never said that Jon possibly being Aegon VII reflects the non-Targaryen side of his identity. R+L=J means Jon is a Targaryen by right of birth, but he is both Targaryen and Stark by blood, and that is surely meant to be important. So, if the number seven doesn't usually symbolically pair with House Targaryen, then it might reflect the joining of these bloodlines and/or even a unique event. Instead of thinking in terms of Targaryen or Stark, try thinking in terms of Targaryen and Stark.

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9 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

No, there is textual evidence that Kevan and Cersei assumed or believed he did.

Exactly. And that constitutes evidence about the beliefs of a character THAT IS ALREADY DEAD by the time the series started. Textual evidence are pieces of text indicating that such and such might be considered a fact in the books. The only textual evidence we have on Rhaegar are (1) a weirdo magical vision which may have been doctored by the powers of the Undying, (2) memories of the people who knew Rhaegar to various degrees.

You would have to build a case that Kevan's memories of what Rhaegar wanted are erroneous - and there is nothing that indicates this. The default approach is to take Kevan's views as yet another piece of the puzzle of 'the Rhaegar mystery', not as something that can to be dismissed because it doesn't fit with 'a popular fan theory'.

9 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

We do not know what Rhaegar had been planning when his first child was born and named Rhaenys. But then he had a son and called him Aegon, and mentioned that there must be one more dragon head. The original three heads of the dragon were Visenya, Aegon, and Rhaenys. The fact that he has named two of his children Aegon and Rhaenys and he also mentions that there must be one more dragon head suggests an extremely obvious candidate for the third dragon head's name—Visenya. Why does Rhaenys precede the hypothetical Visenya here? Another obvious answer suggests itself—Because all Targaryens are descended from her, and none from Visenya.

It makes no sense to assume Rhaegar wanted to recreate Aegon and his sister-wives when he was not naming his first daughter Visenya. It is as simple as that. It also makes no sense that Rhaegar or anyone would have expected or believed that the promised prince would be a middle child. As I pointed out, Rhaegar himself did not have older siblings - which is kind of obvious - yet he himself and other people believed for a time he was the promised prince. If the prophecy were implying that the promised prince had to be a middle child between two sisters, then nobody knowing the prophecy (including Rhaegar himself) would have believed he could be the promised prince.

All that's clear is that Rhaegar and Aemon both believed the promised prince prophecy also entails of references the idea that the dragon has three heads, but this does entail the idea that anyone - Rhaegar included - believed they all had to be siblings. Which is also kind of obvious in the sense that Rhaegar actually tried to create the third head with another woman - his three children wouldn't have been a recreation of the Conqueror and his sister-wives even if his child by Lyanna had been a girl.

It is also rather stupid to refer to Aegon and his sisters as 'the original three heads of the dragon' - there were no original dragon heads. There were just Aegon and his sisters who based their sigil on talk they read in an ancient prophecy, a prophecy Rhaegar read, too. The prophecy doesn't care about the Conqueror and his sister-wives, and there is no indication that Rhaegar gives a damn about either the Conqueror or his sister-wives in his desire to help fulfill the prophecy.

9 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

This all remains to be seen.

No, that has already been established. It is impossible to re-imagine or retcon the Targaryen kings into convinced patrons and supporters of the Night's Watch who focused on the threat coming from the North. George even retconned things in FaB so that Jaehaerys I (apparently) never visited the Wall in person (unlike the claim made back in ASoS).

9 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Except that the text suggests that Rhaegar believed otherwise. Maybe GRRM is trying to trick us, but the common reading of that scene from the HotU is that Rhaegar believes his son with Elia is the PtwP and also one of the dragon heads, along with his sister.

That's what's in the text:

Quote

Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother’s hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. “Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?”
“Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked.
“He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany’s, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. “There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.” He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way.

Rhaegar doesn't speak about children here. He speaks about 'one more', and when he clarifies what he means it becomes clear he means another dragon head. He never specifies who he thinks the first one is or who the three dragon heads are supposed to be in general - aside from the rather likely interpretation that they must be Targaryens.

Back when when we only had ACoK one could think he may have equated the dragon heads with his own children. But considering that we learned later he wanted to have sons, plural, other interpretation become more likely.

I mean, the very idea that women could be two of the dragon heads from the prophecy is silly. Rhaegar believed the promised prince would have to be a warrior. Women aren't warriors in this world, and if the two other dragons were supposed to help the promised prince in his quest/wars/whatever then it makes no sense to assume they would be of a gender that cannot really participate in all that in a meaningful manner.

9 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Except that his newborn by Elia is the subject of Rhaegar's dialogue, so when he says that there must be one more because the dragon has three heads, the natural reading is that Aegon and Rhaenys are the first two, according to Rhaegar. He's saying he must have another child, and as such is equating his children with the THotD.

See above. He doesn't say he needs to have another child. That's an interpretation that's read in the text, it is not explicitly mentioned. I agree that Rhaegar thought it was his duty to produce the third head - but that doesn't mean he already produced the first head. He could have concluded he had to do it because his parents had great trouble producing children and his mother was vastly reaching the point where she would not longer be able to bear children, and his brother Viserys would only be able to produce children in a decade or so.

There is also no 'natural reading' to this scene, by the way, considering it is just a vision lacking context. We get more pieces of the puzzle by the information we get about Rhaegar through other characters in books published after ACoK. We still don't have the complete picture, of course, but we do have reason to believe Rhaegar (1) didn't want to recreate the Aegon the Conqueror and his sister-wives, (2) didn't (necessarily) believe that his daughter Rhaenys was one of the dragon heads, and (3) definitely didn't hoped or expect his third child would be a daughter.

I mean, you are aware that ADwD shifted the burden of prophecy from Rhaegar to Aerys II and Rhaella, right? The prophecy the Ghost of High Heart made to Jaehaerys II makes Rhaegar's parents the crucial couple in the prophecy about the promised prince. It also greatly increased the pool from which both the promised prince and the dragon heads are likely to come from - not merely the children of Rhaegar, but all the descendants of Aerys II and Rhaella. And it is quite clear that Rhaegar Targaryen would have been aware of this prophecy his grandfather received.

9 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Again, this is not what the text indicates. What little it does points to Rhaenys and Aegon so far, with another child, likely a girl, IMO, to be the third and final head.

Even if I were to agree Rhaenys was the most likely candidate for the first dragon head (I don't think that's very likely, but I don't rule out that possibility completely) then this is still neither reason nor justification for the claim Rhaegar expected or believed that the third head would be female. It could also be one girl and two boys.

9 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Except that Aemon explains nobody looked for a girl. They all just assumed it was a prince, not a princess. What Aemon comes to believe in his last days is irrelevant to what Rhaegar believed when his son with Elia was born. The circumstances are much different, obviously. Maester Aemon is reacting to the belief that he is the only other living Targaryen, as well as the sickness that will eventually claim his life.

Sure, but if Rhaegar and Aemon had had good reasons (based on the text of the prophecy, for instance) that two of the three dragons would be female, then Maester Aemon would likely not think he himself could be one of the dragon heads - and neither would he or Rhaegar have ever believed that Rhaegar was the promised prince if it was a prerequisite that the promised prince have an older sister.

I mean, that's not that difficult to understand. The ridiculous idea that Rhaegar wanted or expected to recreate the Conqueror and his sister-wives is obviously a completely arbitrary concept the readers came up - because nobody in the books ever believing to have identified the promised prince ever said or implied that a specific brother-sister constellation is mandatory for Targaryens to be able to be the promised prince and the other dragon heads.

9 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

I do not recognize your authority on how GRRM usually does or does not work. So, maybe try a different approach. One that does not involve elevating your opinion to the realm of fact and truth...

This wasn't an argument of authority. It was a summary of what's available of George's working methods. I'm sure you know he describes himself as a gardener. He doesn't really know where his story is going in all that much detail. And really likes to keep things vague and unclear until he has to finish them for publication. He kept dates and distances, etc. vague because he doesn't want to trouble himself doing the necessary math.

9 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Which is what you do here, too. Not only that, but you continually argue in bad faith. I've pointed out textual evidence in support of this theory on several different occasions only for you to declare that none exists. Yet you accuse me of intellectual dishonesty.

I was very specifically addressing your idea that George were using misdirection to prevent people from figuring out the true name. That's just ludicrous - and very obviously an attempt to immunize your theory against valid criticism. You do realize that you start to arbitrarily dismiss textual evidence that doesn't fit with your view (e.g. your dismissal of the information we got from Kevan about Rhaegar's desire to have sons), right?

The honest approach is to actually take the problems of the Aegon name theory seriously - not dismiss with speculation about intentional misdirection.

9 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

I never said that Jon possibly being Aegon VII reflects the non-Targaryen side of his identity. R+L=J means Jon is a Targaryen by right of birth, but he is both Targaryen and Stark by blood, and that is surely meant to be important. So, if the number seven doesn't usually symbolically pair with House Targaryen, then it might reflect the joining of these bloodlines and/or even a unique event. Instead of thinking in terms of Targaryen or Stark, try thinking in terms of Targaryen and Stark.

In what sense is Jon Snow being a Stark on his mother's side going to be 'important'? What's the textual evidence behind that idea? Nobody doubts 'the Song of Ice and Fire' is, on a symbolic level, sort of embodied by Jon Snow. But the Song of Ice and Fire isn't Jon Snow, it is an event/theme the novel series 'A Song of Ice and Fire' is covering.

The idea that the cross-breeding of bloodlines is going to produce a savior figure is an uncalled-for interpretation at this point. There is no evidence for this. All the evidence we have makes it clear that the promised prince is not prophesied to be half Stark on his mother's side. The only importance here is that the union of the families of the protagonists of the series led to the conception of Jon Snow. That is a nice or interesting detail, but the event itself has, at this point at least, not been the topic of prophecy. There is also no indication in all the books and stories that have been published so far that the promised prince or one of the dragon heads is going to inherit a special talent or magical ability on the basis of his being the child of two special/important noble bloodlines. That isn't the kind of story the author is telling. This is a story about individuals and their choices, and not about magical bloodlines fulfilling destinies.

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13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Back when when we only had ACoK one could think he may have equated the dragon heads with his own children. But considering that we learned later he wanted to have sons, plural, other interpretation become more likely.

I mean, the very idea that women could be two of the dragon heads from the prophecy is silly. Rhaegar believed the promised prince would have to be a warrior. Women aren't warriors in this world, and if the two other dragons were supposed to help the promised prince in his quest/wars/whatever then it makes no sense to assume they would be of a gender that cannot really participate in all that in a meaningful manner.

Not necessary.

Just look at the current "dragon" - Jon, Dany, Rhaego. One female and two males. Aerys' daughter and Aerys' grandsons. The possibility, that those three are the dragon, is hinted by GRRM thru multiple clues, starting from AGOT, like sound effects with which hatched dragon eggs - Viserion's with a sound of a shattering stone (seems that Jon is that winged stone beast from the vision slayer of lies, and a dragon that will be awakened from stone); Rhaegal's with a sound of thunder (in the prophecy about the Stallion that mounts the world, the crones said, that they hear the thunder of his hooves); and Drogon's egg hatched with the sound of the breaking of the world (because Dany is the Breaker of Chains, she will eradicate slavery, and thus will change existing world order).

So, if Rhaegar wanted to have two sons, it could actually mean, that he did somehow found out near the end, that two of the dragon's heads will be males. 

And if what Rhaegar was saying about "there has to be one more", he was actually saying to Dany and not to Elia (if he had a gift like Daenys, or Daemon II, or Daeron the Drunkard, or Shiera, then he could have talked to Dany thru time and space from the past), then he meant, that she has to find Jon, he will be the last one, the third dragonrider, after Dany and Rhaego. In which order they will become dragonriders is also encrypted in that chapter with Drogo's funeral, and in previous chapters, where Dany was "interacting" with her dragon eggs.

13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

This is a story about individuals and their choices, and not about magical bloodlines fulfilling destinies.

:rolleyes: Yeah, right. Let's wait until Lightbringer/Dawn of Daynes will be given to Jon, like Excalibur was given to the future King Arthur, and Anduril-sword was given to the future King Aragorn.

Edited by Megorova

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18 minutes ago, Megorova said:

current "dragon" - Jon, Dany, Rhaego. One female and two males

Rhaego is dead. 

18 minutes ago, Megorova said:

The possibility, that those three are the dragon, is hinted by GRRM thru multiple clues, starting from AGOT, like sound effects with which hatched dragon eggs - Viserion's with a sound of a shattering stone (seems that Jon is that winged stone beast from the vision slayer of lies, and a dragon that will be awakened from stone); Rhaegal's with a sound of thunder (in the prophecy about the Stallion that mounts the world, the crones said, that they hear the thunder of his hooves); and Drogon's egg hatched with the sound of the breaking of the world (because Dany is the Breaker of Chains, she will eradicate slavery, and thus will change existing world order)

Ok I'll bite. What are the multiple clues? 

I fail to see how Jon relates to Viserion  but even if you are interpreting this correctly this is only one clue, right? So I'm curious to know what the multiple clues are. Not only that these are the 3 dragon heads ( don't get me wrong I think Dany & Jon are probably 2 of them) but also why exactly you think Rhaego is alive. 

Part of the point Lord Varys was making is that it makes no sense for Rhaegar to have expected ANY of the dragon heads to be female. If he had then it wouldn't have been such a revelation when Aemon realizes or remembers that 'dragon' has no gender - or IIRC that they are one & then the other - this realizing it's possible that they should have been looking for a princess that was promised. If Rhaegar &/or Aemon didn't put this together previously they would have always assumed the dragon heads to be male. 

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10 hours ago, Megorova said:

So, if Rhaegar wanted to have two sons, it could actually mean, that he did somehow found out near the end, that two of the dragon's heads will be males. 

I'm not discounting the possibility that Rhaegar changed his mind again, but this is actually not necessary. He had the promised prince in his son, Aegon, by Elia, and his destiny was confirmed - at least in Rhaegar's superstitious mind - because a comet was seen above KL in the night of Aegon's conception. We have no reason to believe any such signs and portents accompanied the conception of Jon Snow. We also know from the vision that Rhaegar felt there was need for another dragon head.

The idea that he thought his daughter was one of the dragon heads is, at this point, not implied by the text.

10 hours ago, Megorova said:

:rolleyes: Yeah, right. Let's wait until Lightbringer/Dawn of Daynes will be given to Jon, like Excalibur was given to the future King Arthur, and Anduril-sword was given to the future King Aragorn.

Even if something as cheesy as this were to happen, it would still be a story about individuals and choices. Those family trees and stuff all entered the story at a very late point. The concepts and plot germs come first, not the entire tapestry of events - and certainly not background details that might barely be referenced in the main books.

The whole point of the Lightbringer sword story is the attached sacrifice. It would for a rather poor story if the hero of the present age could fight with his predecessor's sword. Lightbringer burned for Azor Ahai because it drank the soul and warmth of Nissa Nissa. I doubt it will burn for anyone but the long-dead Azor Ahai even if it were still around (and the idea that Dawn is in fact the original Lightbringer is no bad idea).

10 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Part of the point Lord Varys was making is that it makes no sense for Rhaegar to have expected ANY of the dragon heads to be female. If he had then it wouldn't have been such a revelation when Aemon realizes or remembers that 'dragon' has no gender - or IIRC that they are one & then the other - this realizing it's possible that they should have been looking for a princess that was promised. If Rhaegar &/or Aemon didn't put this together previously they would have always assumed the dragon heads to be male. 

Yeah, to repeat it:

1. We have Jaehaerys II/Aerys II/Rhaella/Maester Aemon believe Rhaegar was the promised prince because of the smoke at the salty tears of Summerhall, where Rhaegar was born - despite the fact that Rhaegar didn't have an older sister. We can reasonably assume that part of the reason Aerys II state of mind declined over the years when he and his sister-wife were unable to produce living children was the knowledge that the dragon must have three heads and the ever-increasing pressure that he and Rhaella were expected or destined to produce them. The fact that learned Targaryens believed Rhaegar was - or merely that he could be the promised prince - should be enough to refute the idea that anyone ever thought the three dragon heads were supposed to resemble the Conqueror and his sister wives.

2. We have Rhaegar not to name his daughter Visenya (meaning he had no intention to recreate the Conqueror and his sister-wives in his children) nor any indication that he thought his daughter Rhaenys played any role in prophecy. Neither her birth nor conception was accompanied by signs and portents - like Aegon's was, at least in Rhaegar's mind.

3. We have Aemon immediately conclude that Dany is the promised princess when he learns about the dragons - despite the fact that all her siblings are dead and she is neither male nor ever had any living sisters. She isn't even a middle child - she is the youngest child of her parents, the last of her line. If 'the dragon has three heads' was so concrete a part of the prophecy that it was crystal clear the promised prince(ss) was a middle child with an older and younger sibling of the opposite sex, then Aemon would have never concluded that Dany was the promised princess - dragons or not. After all, she would have not fulfilled crucial aspects of the prophecy. It is also rather telling that Aemon immediately concludes he as Dany's great-granduncle who is not even descended from the prophetic couple, Aerys II and Rhaella, could be one of the other dragon heads if he were younger. He is neither female nor particularly closely related to Daenerys Targaryen - yet apparently Aemon thinks it is enough to be of Targaryen descent to be one of the dragon heads. This means all the Targaryen males living back in 281-2 AC were all potential dragon heads as well - and in my opinion it makes more sense to assume Rhaegar thought his brother Viserys and his son Aegon were the two dragon heads rather than assuming his daughter Rhaenys was one of them. After all, if females figured into the equation at all, it is very odd that they would insist on a promised prince when in fact the original text of the prophecy apparently talks merely of a promised dragon. The default interpretation in as patriarchal a society as Westeros would be that the dragon heads of prophecy are all male - this doesn't change the fact that Aegon and his sister-wives created the three-headed dragon sigil as a reference to the ancient prophecy. But nobody in the books knowing about the prophecy believes that Aegon the Conqueror and his sister-wives had anything to do with this.

4. People allow themselves to get confused by the three dragon heads and connect them to Aegon and his sister-wives because that's what Daenerys and Jorah do - who have never heard or read the prophecy of the promised prince! The only three dragon heads they know are Visenya, Aegon, and Rhaenys, and since Dany doesn't think she has any siblings or other relations left to marry - like Aegon did - Jorah comes up with the idea that whoever unrelated guy becomes her husband could also qualify as such a dragon head. But that's just nonsense if we assume a dragon head also indicates a dragonrider in this context - which I think is very likely the case. But one cannot delude oneself by conflating Dany and Jorah's unlearned nonsense with the scholarly interpretation of prophecy done by Aemon and Rhaegar. They would have been smart enough to know that Aegon the Conqueror and his sister-wives had literally nothing to do with the fulfillment of the prophecy of the promised prince.

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10 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Rhaego is dead. 

No, he isn't. Let's wait with this until release of TWOW.

10 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Ok I'll bite. What are the multiple clues? 

I fail to see how Jon relates to Viserion  but even if you are interpreting this correctly this is only one clue, right? So I'm curious to know what the multiple clues are. Not only that these are the 3 dragon heads ( don't get me wrong I think Dany & Jon are probably 2 of them) but also why exactly you think Rhaego is alive. 

This links are about eggs, and order of dragonriders, and how Rhaego is alive

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/151071-y-does-dany-have-the-best-bond-with-drogon/&amp;do=findComment&amp;comment=8181221

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/151071-y-does-dany-have-the-best-bond-with-drogon/&amp;do=findComment&amp;comment=8180545

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/150869-identity-of-quaithe/&amp;do=findComment&amp;comment=8166082

I didn't found, what I wrote before about symbolism of those eggs' coloring, and their placement on Drogo's funeral pyre, how those elements are clues about identities of those dragons' future riders.

Short (not really :rolleyes:) summary - black and red egg/Drogon, traditional Targaryen colors, Dany placed his egg near Drogo's heart, and this dragon became the closest to her, and eventually she became his rider. He hatched the last out of three, but found himself a rider first out of three. The order with the white egg/Viserion is reversed - Jon was born first out of three, Viserion's egg hatched first out of three, but Jon will become the last dragonrider out of three, already after Dany will be reunited with Rhaego, and he will become Rhaegal's dragonrider. The green egg was always second - Dany felt that the dragon inside that egg is alive, and said to Rhaego inside her womb, something like they are brothers, it was months after she made spiritual connection with Drogon (before the hatching), she saw him in her dream, prior her wedding with Drogo. Green egg was placed on funeral pyre the second, and hatched second. The coloring of eggs is also symbolical - green and bronze, like grass of Dothraki Sea and bronze like horses, or skin of Dothraki, or their arakhs. And the white one is like snow, there's also a bit of gold and bronze, like golden crown of Targaryens and bronze of First Men, which are Jon's ancestors on his mother's side.

The thing is, about some elements, that were written in the first book, is that it becomes obvious, that they are clues, only after to them was added new information from further books. For example, the fact that Quaithe is Shiera Seastar, and that she was with Dany in AGOT, when Dany was giving birth to Rhaego, becomes obvious, only after addition of information from the World Book, where GRRM revealed, that Shiera Seastar had mismatched green/blue eyes, and that her favourite jewellery were necklaces with star sapphires and emeralds, and addition of information from Dany's last chapter in ADWD, where it is revealed, that Quaithe's mask is made of starlight. So, add all of that together, and only then you (maybe) will see, that the smiling and whispering stars in Dany's fevered dream, and the ghosts in faded raiment of kings, with swords of pale fire in their hands (which is actually a glass candle, in the hands of Shiera Seastar, that had blue/green eyes, colored like jades, opals, tourmalines and amethysts), and even Viserys (who was twisting Dany's nipples, which is a natural method of stimulating labour) was actually Shiera Seastar/Quaithe.

Same with elements from the first book, about who will be Viserion's future rider. Only with addition to AGOT of "three mounts will you ride", "bride of fire", "daughter of death" and "slayer of lies" from ACOK, it becomes obvious (or maybe not exactly obvious), that there is a reason, why Dany had placed white egg between Drogo's legs, on his funeral pyre, and why she wanted to have sex with him for the last time, when he was already burning, and why she thought while seeing visions in that fire, that "this is a wedding too". Three mounts are not horses, or dragons, they are Dany's three husbands - the one to bed - Drogo, the one to dread - Hizdahr, the one to love - Jon. Dany is referred to as the bride of fire, and in the third vision from that set, she saw blue flower on the wall of ice, which is Jon at The Wall. Jon is Azor Ahai reborn, R'hllor's champion, and the last Targaryen "dragon", that will be awakened from stone, so he is a living fire, like dragons are fire made flesh, so Dany is "bride of fire" because Jon will be her third "mount"/husband. The third vision in a slayer of lies, is also about Jon, he is that great stone beast, that was breathing shadow flame. He is half-Stark/direwolf, and half-Targaryen/dragon, a chimera, and the smoking tower is a cover story, made by Ned Stark, to conceal who Jon really is, by making a "smoke screen", that supposedly Jon is his bastard. Dany will slay this lie, and will awaken Jon, to who he really is, that he is a dragon, he will be the last dragon, that she will awaken from stone. That's why white egg hatched with the sound of shattering stone. Also, there's an order, in which those eggs were "initiated" back in AGOT - 1. black-red, Dany saw Drogon in her dream, prior her wedding night with Drogo; 2. green-bronze, she took that egg into her bed, after the incident with the wine-poisoner, and she felt, that the baby in her womb and the dragon-embryo inside that egg, reacted to each other, like brother to brother, blood to blood. So, Rhaego will become second dragonrider, after Dany, and his dragon will be Rhaegal; 3. the last out of three was initiated white egg, Dany felt that an embryo started to move inside it, already after Rhaego's birth and his supposed death. So this dragon, Viserion, will find himself a rider the last out of three, and that will be Jon. And all those little clues were added by GRRM back in AGOT. Though, before Dany's visit to the House of the Undying in ACOK, those elements were not noticed, as something relevant or significant, were not seen as clues, even though they were there, from the very beginning.

And there's even more of those small clues, they are scattered in Jon's and Dany's chapters in AGOT. I was reading all of Jon's chapters thru AGOT-ADWD, and then all of Dany's, that's why I noticed then those clues. But it was over a year ago, so now I don't remember what else was there, and I can't find, what I wrote here before, about what I did found then. There was something in Bran's chapters too. Though now I'm reading other books, and don't want to spoil my impression from them by mixing them with re-reading ASOIAF. So, I'll try later to look for those posts, that I wrote about this topic before, or I won't.

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59 minutes ago, Megorova said:

No, he isn't.

Yes, he is. 

59 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Let's wait with this until release of TWOW.

Yes, let’s. But I fear once we have Winds, you’ll say “let’s wait for ADoS”. :wideeyed:

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35 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yes, let’s. But I fear once we have Winds, you’ll say “let’s wait for ADoS”. :wideeyed:

If there will be Dany's POV in TWOW, then there will be no need to wait for ADOS. Because if Rhaego is alive, then Dany will be very soon reunited with him. Because if he was kidnapped by the Dothraki, and I'm 99% sure that he was (the last 1% is that he was kidnapped by Shiera), then he was kidnapped by Drogo's ex-ko, who now became Khal Pono, and whom Dany met in the end of her last chapter in ADWD. So, if Rhaego is alive, then we will see him, either in Dany's 1st chapter in TWOW, or in 2nd, or in 3rd - if she will have to go all the way back to Vaes Dothrak on horseback, and not to fly on a dragon.

Also, there's a very small possibility, that it was Shiera, who took Rhaego, and in this case, he is now in Asshai. Thus, either way, whoever from his relatives took him (his kindapping was the treason for blood, either for the blood of his Dothraki father, whose ko-Pono was blood of his blood, or by Rhaego's distant dregonseed-relative, Shiera Seastrar/Quaithe's real identity), Rhaego will return into the plot, before Dany will depart from Essos, and she will do it at least by the end of TWOW, if not earlier. But that's only in case, if there will be Dany's POV in TWOW, or someone's POV, who will be showing to the readers, what's going on with Dany.

But if there will be Dany's POV in TWOW, and there will be zero information about Rhaego (she won't be reunited with him in Vaes Dothrak, or wherever before that Pono will take her; or she won't even have visions and dragon-dreams about Rhaego, and Quaithe will never again mention to her about the truth, that Dany will find in Asshai), then I will agree, that after GRRM decided to add Blackfyres into the plot of ASOIAF, he decided not to return Rhaego into the books. But I won't agree, that GRRM planned to kill Rhaego, way back in AGOT. Because, based on AGOT Dany IX, Rhaego was born alive, and he wasn't born blind, like Mirri said to Dany. So, if she lied about that (him being blind, and him being born dead, and his body decomposing, after she touched it), then she lied about all the rest, and thus, Rhaego is alive.

Furthermore, even addition of fAegon and Blackfyres into the plot of ASOIAF, doesn't eliminate necessity of Rhaego's character. fAegon is an Antichrist of ASOIAF, the seven-headed and ten-horned scarlet beast, that came out of the sea, with one mortally wounded head, that healed itself (this is from the Book of Revellation, the part of the Bible about Apocalypse, and the second coming of Jesus), and Dany with Jon and Rhaego are the real Messiah. So, GRRM later adding Blackfyres and fAegon into the plot, doesn't mean, that he won't make Rhaego to be one of the three dragonriders, alongside with Dany and Jon.

So, I'll say "let's wait for ADOS", only if GRRM will separate the plot of the last two books into POVs, similar to how he did with ACOK and AFFC, where in one of them there was no Jon's POV, and in the other one was no Dany's POV. If we won't have Dany's POV in TWOW, and all info about her we will get only from Barristan's chapters and from Tyrion's, and she won't be talking with them about her dreams and visions and about her new interactions with Quaithe, then it's likely, that she will leave Essos, without reuniting with Rhaego, but it won't mean, that he is dead, we only won't know, that he is alive, untill the very end of the series <- if that's what GRRM is trying to do. If he will end the series many years after the beginning of the Long Night. If both Jon and Dany will die, and only much later it will be revealed, that all this time Rhaego was alive, and he will reappear in ASOIAF only when he will become that tall lord from Dany's vision, the one that was with a banner of a fiery stallion, and a burning city behind him (possibly burned because it was infested with wights).

 

Though, there is a reason, why GRRM always placed that green egg everywhere, as the second. Thus, Rhaego will become the second dragonrider. :idea:If Rhaegal will die in TWOW, not just dissapear, but die on pages, then I will believe, that Rhaego is dead. For now, I'm absolutely sure, that he is alive.

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15 minutes ago, Megorova said:

If there will be Dany's POV in TWOW, then there will be no need to wait for ADOS. Because if Rhaego is alive, then Dany will be very soon reunited with him. Because if he was kidnapped by the Dothraki, and I'm 99% sure that he was (the last 1% is that he was kidnapped by Shiera), then he was kidnapped by Drogo's ex-ko, who now became Khal Pono, and whom Dany met in the end of her last chapter in ADWD. So, if Rhaego is alive, then we will see him, either in Dany's 1st chapter in TWOW, or in 2nd, or in 3rd - if she will have to go all the way back to Vaes Dothrak on horseback, and not to fly on a dragon.

Sorry, but none of this makes any sense IMO. But let’s say you’re right, just for fun... what then? Dany will meet her 3yr-old son and? How will she know it’s him? And more importantly, what is a 3yr-old boy gonna do or accomplish? 

 

16 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Also, there's a very small possibility, that it was Shiera, who took Rhaego, and in this case, he is now in Asshai.

You mean Shiera, who you claim is the 3EC? :rolleyes:

Seems I can’t quote a 3rd part of your post, so here it goes:

You say you don’t agree that Martin had planned to have Rhaego die when he first wrote AGoT, and yet he did. So you agreeing or not doesn’t really carry much weight. IMO.

And just out of curiousity, why do you think Rhaego wasn’t born blind, as MMD told Dany? I mean, where are you getting that from, if I may ask?

 

 

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4 hours ago, Megorova said:

No, he isn't. Let's wait with this until release of TWOW.

No need to wait, he was DOA in the first book over twenty years ago.

You seriously post some of the worst most baseless theories.

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2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

what then? Dany will meet her 3yr-old son and? How will she know it’s him?

What do you think - how many 3yr-old boys are there amongst Dothraki, who have violet eyes and silver-gold hair?

That's how she will recognize him, she had already seen him as an adult, and there's not that many people with such an exotic looks like Rhaego's, so as an adult, or as a child, he will be recognizable - "A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him." & "Her son was tall and proud, with Drogo's copper skin and her own silver-gold hair, violet eyes shaped like almonds." And Drogon will also recognize his kin, same as other dragons liked Brown Ben Plumm, because of his drop of dragon blood.

And those Dothraki, that were raising him, while Dany was emancipating Essos, will call him Khal of khals, and Rhaego, because that's the name, that his father named him with near the sacred lake at Vaes Dothrak, so they kept that name.

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

And more importantly, what is a 3yr-old boy gonna do or accomplish?

When GRRM was writting AGOT, wasn't he planning to use a 5-years gap? So, in the original plot-line, Rhaego was supposed to be 8+ (?) by the time, when they were going to leave Essos, and go to conquer Westeros. Amongst Targaryens there were children, that became dragonriders aged 6 (Daeron the Daring/Tessarion) and 7 (Rhaenyra/Syrax).

Probably, after GRRM had to ditch 5-years gap plan, he figured out, that it isn't necessary for Rhaego to become a dragonrider, as soon as he will be reunited with his mother. Because his main investment into the plot, is that he will be a spiritual leader of all Dothraki, and they will follow him, that Biblical "the child will lead them". He is Khal of khals, like Biblical Jesus is King of kings and Lord of lords, and the Great Shepherd that will lead all nations. This is a prophecy about the Stallion that mounts the world, it's very similar to Jesus' description in Revelation:

" "All men are one flock, or so we are taught," replied Mirri Maz Duur. "The Great Shepherd sent me to earth to heal his lambs, wherever I might find them." " - AGOT, Dany VII.

Dany V - "Finally the crone opened her eye and lifted her arms. "I have seen his face, and heard the thunder of his hooves," she proclaimed in a thin, wavery voice.

"The thunder of his hooves!" the others chorused.

"As swift as the wind he rides, and behind him his khalasar covers the earth, men without number, with arakhs shining in their hands like blades of razor grass. Fierce as a storm this prince will be. His enemies will tremble before him, and their wives will weep tears of blood and rend their flesh in grief. The bells in his hair will sing his coming, and the milk men in the stone tents will fear his name." The old woman trembled and looked at Dany almost as if she were afraid. "The prince is riding, and he shall be the stallion who mounts the world." "

"The stallion is the khal of khals promised in ancient prophecy, child. He will unite the Dothraki into a single khalasar and ride to the ends of the earth, or so it was promised. All the people of the world will be his herd."

Possibly, after reuniting with Rhaego, Dany will use Drogon to kill all khals, as a revenge for making her think, that her son died. So it will be the second fire from the prophecy, the one for death. Afterwards all dosh khaleen will bend to Dany, she will take back Rhaego, and all Dothraki will have to serve to her. So, whoever has Rhaego, has the power over Dothraki. That's why 30.000 of Drogo's people went with Pono - because he took Rhaego.

So, Dany thru control over her son, will makr all Dothraki to join her armies, and will make them go to Westeros. And Rhaego will become a dragonrider, much later. It isn't necessary to actually become a dragonrider, to form a bond with a dragon. Dany's bond with Drogon was formed long before she mounted him in the end of ADWD. Thus, it's likely, that after Rhaego will be reunited with his mother, he will bond with Rhaegel, but won't even ride him in span of TWOW and ADOS.

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

You mean Shiera, who you claim is the 3EC? :rolleyes:

Yep. :thumbsup:

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

You say you don’t agree that Martin had planned to have Rhaego die when he first wrote AGoT, and yet he did.

No, he didn't. He planned to make it look to Dany and to readers, that Rhaego supposedly died, but he didn't actually made him die.

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

And just out of curiousity, why do you think Rhaego wasn’t born blind, as MMD told Dany? I mean, where are you getting that from, if I may ask?

From the text ^_^

To help Dany to wake the dragon/to give birth to Rhaego, Shiera used on her some sort of magic, and because of that magic Dany sort of warged into her son's body, while he was still inside her, and she experienced, what was happening during his childbirth, interchangeably from POV of her own body, and from POV of her unborn baby.

This is all Rhaego's POV:

"She was walking down a long hall beneath high stone arches. She could not look behind her, must not look behind her. There was a door ahead of her, tiny with distance, but even from afar, she saw that it was painted red. She walked faster, and her bare feet left bloody footprints on the stone.

...

The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She began to run.

...

She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. "Faster!" the ghosts cried as one, and she screamed and threw herself forward. A great knife of pain ripped down her back, and she felt her skin tear open and smelled the stench of burning blood and saw the shadow of wings (<- this piece is Dany's POV, she had back labour, this is when she gave a final push, and the baby was born/went thru "the red door". Again Rhaego's POV ->). And Daenerys Targaryen flew.

...

The door loomed before her, the red door, so close, so close, the hall was a blur around her, the cold receding behind. And now the stone was gone and she flew across the Dothraki sea, high and higher, the green rippling beneath, and all that lived and breathed fled in terror from the shadow of her wings. She could smell home, she could see it, there, just beyond that door, green fields and great stone houses and arms to keep her warm, there. She threw open the door.

...

And saw her brother Rhaegar, mounted on a stallion as black as his armor. Fire glimmered red through the narrow eye slit of his helm. "The last dragon," Ser Jorah's voice whispered faintly. "The last, the last." Dany lifted his polished black visor. The face within was her own. "

<- It wasn't Dany who saw Rhaegar, it was Rhaego who saw Dany, and the face within was her own, because Dany at that moment was seeing her own body, thru eyes of her newly-born son, who was born alive, didn't decomposed after his birth, and as you can see from the text of AGOT, wasn't born blind. That black armor and the fire in her eyes, was actually a magic spell, and the visor was lifted, when the spell was taken off, and Shiera disconnected Dany's soul from Rhaego's body. Then Dany had lost consciousness, or was given the milk of the poppy, which is an opiate, and causes hallucinations. She fell asleep, and forgot what actually happened, or was made to forget by Shiera, who many hours after Rhaego's birth was staying with Dany, and whispering secrets to her, including, what should be done, to hatch those dragon eggs. Dany only partially remembered what happened, but it all seemed to her to be just a fevered dreams.

Mirri Maz Duur was Shiera's disciple, that's why she let Dany to sacrifice her. Maester Marwyn, who was Mirri's teacher, also was there, when Dany was giving birth to Rhaego. Dany saw him as Drogo and then Jorah, who said that Rhaegar was the last dragon, and then vanished. Both Shiera and Marwyn weren't actually there, they were using glass candles, to "appear" in Drogo's tent. Those swords of pale fire, in the hands of ghosts in faded raiment of kings, was a glass candle in the hands of Shiera. And at first Dany saw Shiera as a whispering stars, becuse Shiera/Quaithe was wearing her red laquered "starlight" mask (that hid her mismatched blue-green eyes, colored like jades, opals, tourmalines and amethysts) and black cape, that covered her silver-gold and platinum-white hair. And then she took them off, and Dany saw her as Viserys, who was twisting her nipples, which is a natural method of stimulating contractions during childbirth. Red and black is a faded raiment of kings, because that was traditional colors of Targaryen court, and the current kings of 7K, are Lannisters-Baratheons, and their kingly raiment is gold and red and yellow, or whatever is their traditional colors are.

Edited by Megorova

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4 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

You seriously post some of the worst most baseless theories. 

Like what? ^_^ Which of my theories seems to be the most ridiculous to you?

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3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Sorry, but none of this makes any sense IMO. But let’s say you’re right, just for fun... what then? Dany will meet her 3yr-old son and? How will she know it’s him? And more importantly, what is a 3yr-old boy gonna do or accomplish? 

 

You mean Shiera, who you claim is the 3EC? :rolleyes:

Seems I can’t quote a 3rd part of your post, so here it goes:

You say you don’t agree that Martin had planned to have Rhaego die when he first wrote AGoT, and yet he did. So you agreeing or not doesn’t really carry much weight. IMO.

And just out of curiousity, why do you think Rhaego wasn’t born blind, as MMD told Dany? I mean, where are you getting that from, if I may ask?

 

 

I dint know why you still bother

1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

They are all pretty much tied for worst.

For me its a tie between Jeyne Swann and Barristan Selmy as the father of Aegon. Of course all of these fan fics are vaguely interlinked somehow

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15 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

For me its a tie between Jeyne Swann and Barristan Selmy as the father of Aegon. Of course all of these fan fics are vaguely interlinked somehow

They are interlinked thru Blackfyres and Shiera Seastar (whose mother, Serenei of Lys, was possibly Larra Rogare, and whose grandmother possibly was Johanna Swann, the Black Swan of Lys; which thru shared blood ties Shiera to Jeyne Swann and Barristan and fAegon and Targaryens and Blackfyres). If my theory about Jeyne/Lemore and Barristan/grandson of Aenys Blackfyre is correct, then the septa, that was with Lady Jeyne, when they were attacked by the Kingswood Brotherhood, was Shiera Seastar in shadow glamour. She gave love potion to Barristan (like Princess Rhae gave to Egg, he mentioned it in The Sworn Sword novel), and Jeyne seduced him. That way they tried to orchestrate the birth of the Promised Prince. Because, from the same source as Rhaegar, Shiera knew about the comet, that it is TPTWP's omen, and fAegon's conception possibly happened on the same day, as conception of Elia's Aegon, when the comet was seen above King's Landing.

You may disagree with my theories, I admit that some of them are indeed very farfetched, but it doesn't mean, that I am wrong. Not so sure about B+J=fA, but Rhaego is definitely alive, and Shiera/Quaithe is definitely the Three-Eyed Crow. So, as I already said to other posters - let's wait until TWOW. If there will be zero information about Rhaego, then I will agree with all of you, that I was totally wrong, and that he is dead and was dead since AGOT.

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3 hours ago, Megorova said:

You may disagree with my theories, I admit that some of them are indeed very farfetched, but it doesn't mean, that I am wrong. Not so sure about B+J=fA, but Rhaego is definitely alive, and Shiera/Quaithe is definitely the Three-Eyed Crow. So, as I already said to other posters - let's wait until TWOW. If there will be zero information about Rhaego, then I will agree with all of you, that I was totally wrong, and that he is dead and was dead since AGOT.

Well I do believe Shiera Seastar/Bloodraven(aka 3EC) are working together (and are responsible for the shadow assassin at Summerhall!). There is a percentage that Quaithe may be Shiera.

There is a small percentage that Rhaego may be alive, but its small. No way the Dothraki would take something given to them by the witch Mirri Maz Dur, and the Dothraki worship strength in their khals, not blood. Rhaego is worthless to them. I don't see how an alive newborn Rhaego would get pass the Dothraki, or what purpose he will serve in the future. Even if Rhaego is alive, I doubt he would ride a dragon. He may be taken as a hostage to use against Dany in future ... but I don't see a good background story for it.

IMO, the description of Rhaego was used to foreshadow something dark and evil for the future.

Off-topic: A preview of a theory I have to write later, The Dark Sister Rebellion:

Spoiler

 

"Tell me. Tell me what the women say."
He turned his face away. His eyes were haunted. "They say the child was …"
She waited, but Ser Jorah could not say it. His face grew dark with shame. He looked
half a corpse himself.
"
Monstrous," Mirri Maz Duur finished for him. The knight was a powerful man, yet Dany understood in that moment that the maegi was stronger, and crueler, and infinitely more dangerous. "Twisted. I drew him forth myself. He was scaled like a lizard, blind, with the stub of a tail and small leather wings like the wings of a bat. When I touched him, the flesh sloughed off the bone, and inside he was full of graveworms and the stink of corruption. He had been dead for years."
Daenerys IX AGOT

Meera's gloved hand tightened around the shaft of her frog spear. "Who sent you? Who is this three-eyed crow?"
"A friend. Dreamer, wizard, call him what you will. The last greenseer." The longhall's wooden door banged open. Outside, the night wind howled, bleak and black. The trees were full of ravens, screaming. Coldhands did not move.
"
A monster," Bran said.
The ranger looked at Bran as if the rest of them did not exist. "
Your monster, Brandon Stark."
Bran I ADWD

Seated on his throne of roots in the great cavern, half-corpse and half-tree, Lord Brynden seemed less a man than some ghastly statue made of twisted wood, old bone, and rotted wool. The only thing that looked alive in the pale ruin that was his face was his one red eye, burning like the last coal in a dead fire, surrounded by twisted roots and tatters of leathery white skin hanging off a yellowed skull.
The sight of him still frightened Bran—the weirwood roots snaking in and out of his
withered flesh, the mushrooms sprouting from his cheeks, the white wooden worm that grew from the socket where one eye had been. He liked it better when the torches were put out. In the dark he could pretend that it was the three-eyed crow who whispered to him and not some grisly talking corpse.
Bran III ADWD

"The war?" asked Davos.
"The war," she affirmed. "There are two, Onion Knight. Not seven, not one, not a hundred or a thousand. Two! Do you think I crossed half the world to put yet another vain king on yet another empty throne? The war has been waged since time began, and before it is done, all men must choose where they will stand. On one side is R'hllor, the Lord of Light, the Heart of Fire, the God of Flame and Shadow.
Against him stands the Great Other whose name may not be spoken, the Lord of Darkness, the Soul of Ice, the God of Night and Terror. Ours is not a choice between Baratheon and Lannister, between Greyjoy and Stark. It is death we choose, or life. Darkness, or light." She clasped the bars of his cell with her slender white hands. The great ruby at her throat seemed to pulse with its own radiance. "So tell me, Ser Davos Seaworth, and tell me truly—does your heart burn with the shining light of R'hllor? Or is it black and cold and full of worms?" She reached through the bars and laid three fingers upon his breast, as if to feel the truth of him through flesh and wool and leather.
Davos III ASOS

 

Now ... who is Bloodraven's maegi that is working with him? Did TWOIAF reveal any hints? Bloodraven has Dark Sister ... is that a clue?

 

Edited by The Map Guy

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