Heresy 217 Dreams and Dust

[dialt]

5 hours ago, Tucu said:

I like the Sandra/Alexander connection. So Melisandre could be "darkness defender of man" or "dark defender of man"?

I think Melisandre is a reference to the so called Melisse. Priestesses whose main purpose was to predict the future, interpret signs etc...

Another link to them, is given by the fact that one of them was called Melania, from which you have “Melony” that is Melisandre’s former name (when she was sold as a slave).

[Matthew.]

2 hours ago, redriver said:

And the CotF were avid face carving enthusiasts who were known to hang around in forests and deep places,such as caves.Anyway I don't see what the fuss is about.

For my part, I was really thrown off by GRRM's usage of "columns," as I didn't know that it's also a valid geological term for natural limestone formations, so my initial mental image was off base. 

[Janneyc1]

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

For my part, I was really thrown off by GRRM's usage of "columns," as I didn't know that it's also a valid geological term for natural limestone formations, so my initial mental image was off base. 

I remeber a geologist buddy mentioning natural columns 

[Black Crow]

11 hours ago, redriver said:

It may well be and it may have had other unintended consequences too, such as the Others and dragons(eventually).But only if you view the hammer as a meteor and/or meteorites derived from a comet or other celestial body which was summoned by grand scale magic or sorcery.

"Hammer" implies a percussive action from above and iirc both Theon and Catelyn refer to the hammer as being brought or called down by the CotF in legend.This could easily explain the geographical effects existing in the Neck and Arm.

 

It can imply that, but given the lack of other markers I think that a more likely "event" might be something like the Storegga Slide - a massive calving of a bit of the Norwegian coast which "drowned" the east coast of Scotland and may have helped create the Neck [the Forth estuary/valley]

GRRM could easily combine that with the breaching of the Wealden-Artois anticline to create the Hammer of the Waters without requiring cosmic intervention

[redriver]

It is a fantasy series and to my mind cometary and other celestial references are too numerous to ignore!

[Tucu]

12 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

The idea of peace between all men is naive. Even if we didn't have an all out war between races, and there was an understanding you can't do things such as cut down wierwoods, you could have men fighting with each other, and possibly Cotf too. 

The disappearance of the Cotf forest before the Andals arrived is harder to explain.

I've suggested before that the Cotf didn't disappear until after the Andals arrived and the measters revised history to suppress magic. 

It is also possible the Cotf were nearly gone before the pact.  We have the story of the last hero, who certainly had a hard time finding them.

The old stories about the Blackwoods can probably explain how the CoTF were expelled from the North too.

Luwin tells us that The Pact granted the forests to the CoTF:

Quote

"There they forged the Pact. The First Men were given the coastlands, the high plains and bright meadows, the mountains and bogs, but the deep woods were to remain forever the children's, and no more weirwoods were to be put to the axe anywhere in the realm

Yet the Blackwoods claim to have ruled the Wolfswood during the Age of Heroes before being expelled by the Starks:

Quote

Blackwoods of Raventree, whose own family traditions insist they once ruled most of the wolfswood before being driven from their lands by the Kings of Winter

By the time the Andals arrived the Blackwood were already petty kings in the Riverlands. So the Blackwoods were ruling land that was assigned to the CoTF in the Pact.

From the South we get similar stories. Durran "the devout" returned the Rainwood to the CoTF and another Durran took it back for good a century later.

[asongofheresy]

On 2/1/2019 at 5:29 PM, St Daga said:

 

I agree the imagery of that banner behind Rhaego (if that is Rhaego) in Dany's vision does seem a bit like Bittersteel's personal sigil, although dragon wings do stand out an important part of Bittersteel's sigil that would not be mentioned here.  It is rather tempting to consider that Dany thinks she is of the trueborn Targaryen line, but she might actually be a descendant of the Blackfyre's, with a connection being made through Bittersteel, who founded the Golden Company which supported the Blackfyre contenders to the throne. But if that is the case, why not a banner of gold, to represent the Golden Company. Why the tie to Bittersteel? Unless Aegor did have children with Daemon Blackfyre's daughter Calla, and Dany is descended from that line? I have honestly never looked down this path much, but I would assume it has been discussed here.

It's possible the banner behind Rhaego is also just a combination of Targaryen fire and the Dothraki horse in a sigil. It would make sense that was what Dany would see in a vision if she is longing or wishing for her son, and it fits the idea of the horse she sees in Drogo's pyre, a grey stallion with a mane that is a nimbus of blue flame.

And something I have never noticed before but the text only gives us the word nimbus three times, once from Jon's POV when he thinks back to Othor burning, Dany in regards to Drogo's pyre, and Quentyn when he is attempting to tame one of Dany's dragons and uses a sheep to feed and calm the dragons. I am not sure if that word and whom it is used around is important or not! A nimbus is noted to be a halo or aura surrounding supernatural being.

Does that mean Quentyn is more important or even somehow alive or is it Dany who isn't that much important when it comes to asoiaf universe? Jonathan's death may signal that Dany will met a lackluster end too? 

And as someone interested in Blackfyres I must say Bittersteel and Calla didn't had a kid as no son of Bittersteel was part of Golden Company and didn't fight for the red dragon. 

Is it possible if Dany is a red dragon from Tyrosh? I would say yes but we have to learn whose descendant she is. We can eliminate

• Aegon Blackfyre

• Aemon Blackfyre

• Calla Rivers

• Daemon II Blackfyre

• Aenys Blackfyre

› Daughter II, Unnamed sons and Haegon is still possible as Blackfyre ancestors 

[Melifeather]

16 hours ago, redriver said:

It may well be and it may have had other unintended consequences too, such as the Others and dragons(eventually).But only if you view the hammer as a meteor and/or meteorites derived from a comet or other celestial body which was summoned by grand scale magic or sorcery.

"Hammer" implies a percussive action from above and iirc both Theon and Catelyn refer to the hammer as being brought or called down by the CotF in legend.This could easily explain the geographical effects existing in the Neck and Arm.

I tend to agree with this, because of the connection between comets and dragons. The name of the lake 'God's Eye' implies it could be the location of the comet strike, because the damage seems to radiate outward from there.

I'm thinking Black Crow has the right of it that all these events go together. A massive comet struck Westeros. The impact caused a giant tidal wave or tsunami that washed away the Arm of Dorne, severed the Iron Islands from the mainland, flooded the Neck, and caused a worldwide climate disruption, bringing upon the Long Night.

Our own Earth sustained a massive asteroid or comet strike, and scientists theorize it led to the demise of dinosaurs. The Chicxulub crater is an impact crater buried underneath the Yucatán Peninsula in Mexico. It was formed by a large asteroid or comet, about 11 to 81 kilometres (6.8 to 50.3 miles) in diameter, striking the Earth. It's a widely accepted theory that the impact led to a worldwide climate disruption and was the cause of the Cretaceous-Paleogene extinction event in which 75% of plant and animal species on Earth became extinct.

The extinction event was severe, global, rapid, and selective, eliminating a vast number of species. My question is, how many years is considered 'rapid'? The Long Night occurred after the Pact. The Pact itself might simply be the time period where everything had gone quiet after the comet impact. Then slowly mankind recovered, but at the same time photosynthesis declined or became extinct as atmospheric particles blocked sunlight and reduced the solar energy reaching the ground. The Long Night began to fall.

While the massive Chicxulub asteroid/comet is credited with the demise of dinosaurs, in GRRM's world a comet is associated with the birth of dragons. Now add in a bit of Marvel and DC Comics inspiration to utilize pieces of the meteor to forge magic swords and you get the birth of heroes.

[St Daga]

8 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

Does that mean Quentyn is more important or even somehow alive or is it Dany who isn't that much important when it comes to asoiaf universe? Jonathan's death may signal that Dany will met a lackluster end too? 

I have not idea if the nimbus wording means anything. It just stood out to me on a search. But I have always had doubts about Quentyn's death. He is either still alive, or part of him as become part of the psyche of one of those dragons, which I have seen suggested here on several occasions. I would guess Dany is important, but I have discussed in the past how I suppose it's possible that she or Jon might be incredibly large red herrings in the story, set to distract us from someone else in the story.

11 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

And as someone interested in Blackfyres I must say Bittersteel and Calla didn't had a kid as no son of Bittersteel was part of Golden Company and didn't fight for the red dragon. 

Is it possible if Dany is a red dragon from Tyrosh? I would say yes but we have to learn whose descendant she is. We can eliminate

• Aegon Blackfyre

• Aemon Blackfyre

• Calla Rivers

• Daemon II Blackfyre

• Aenys Blackfyre

› Daughter II, Unnamed sons and Haegon is still possible as Blackfyre ancestors 

Could they have had a daughter? Or a son who was not involved in the Golden Company? This is certainly not an area of the story I have given much thought too, so I might just be spinning my wheels in the mud!

[St Daga]

20 hours ago, Janneyc1 said:

Well I think it was cast from the cave we see in the Rainwood when they attempted to break the Arm of Dorne. It looks to have been bad for that cave system. I thik the success of the Dornish Hammer was that the landmas around the point of origin would have channeled the water back and into a straighter path. Basically, they could aim the Hammer. The second one that flooded the Neck was possibly done at the Iron Islands, amongst Naga's Bones. Since there wasn't a land mass here to contain the Hammer, it spread out in a circle, rather than a specific area. which resulted in the Iron Islands being broken and the Neck flooding. 

I think that the origin point would have to be close to where the Hammer hits. It would take an enormous amount of energy to cause that big of waves and as you increase the distance, it likely increases the amount of energy required. 

I suppose it is possible it was a magic that started under ground, but that just doesn't feel quite right to me. But I am pretty open to all idea's about the magic of the CofF and how it worked. I do think something could have happened on the Iron Islands, but it seems to have left the place with some bad consequences. They really have no land for farming or any type of self sustainment, but perhaps that is the price of the magic, if something powerful did originate at Nagga's ribs. 

I guess my initial take on the caves under the rainwood was just to demonstrate that there are probably cave systems like this under every major forest in Westeros. The Wolfswood, the Haunted Forest, the Rainwood, If the CotF were given these areas, maybe they eventually went down into the ground, like we see at Bloodraven's cave. Maybe  whatever underground system that  includes the crypts of Winterfell is probably very similar to this. If such a cave system exists under the Neck, then perhaps the real truth of the crannogmen is that they are underground much of the time, which is why they are so difficult to find, and why you can't send raven's to them?

[Black Crow]

26 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I tend to agree with this, because of the connection between comets and dragons. The name of the lake 'God's Eye' implies it could be the location of the comet strike, because the damage seems to radiate outward from there.

I'm thinking Black Crow has the right of it that all these events go together. A massive comet struck Westeros. The impact caused a giant tidal wave or tsunami that washed away the Arm of Dorne, severed the Iron Islands from the mainland, flooded the Neck, and caused a worldwide climate disruption, bringing upon the Long Night.

 

Not a comet, but a moon - per the Dothraki story of where the dragons came from

[St Daga]

20 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I'm already well into the realms of extreme speculation, but I would further suggest that Joramun was defeated - perhaps even betrayed - by Brandon the Breaker (Pact Breaker?), at which point the Horn fell into Stark possession; IMO, it is not Sam's broken horn, or buried in the north, but held in one of the tombs in the Winterfell crypts.

This would make some sense to what Mance seems to be searching for at Winterfell, and his interest does seem to lie in the crypts. But if he believes the horn is in Winterfell, what does he even have his wildlings digging for in the Frostfangs? Why go to all that wasted energy? Was it just to fool his wildling followers?

[asongofheresy]

2 hours ago, St Daga said:

I have not idea if the nimbus wording means anything. It just stood out to me on a search. But I have always had doubts about Quentyn's death. He is either still alive, or part of him as become part of the psyche of one of those dragons, which I have seen suggested here on several occasions. I would guess Dany is important, but I have discussed in the past how I suppose it's possible that she or Jon might be incredibly large red herrings in the story, set to distract us from someone else in the story.

Could they have had a daughter? Or a son who was not involved in the Golden Company? This is certainly not an area of the story I have given much thought too, so I might just be spinning my wheels in the mud!

Bittersteel cared about law and inheritance that's why he supported Daemon because they believed or found something that proved illegitimacy of Daeron II, Aegor also cares about leadership that's why he supports Haegon over Daemon II and doesn't support Aenys who tries to usurp Daemon III if Bittersteel ever had a daughter she would definitely marry Haegon but since we know nothing about Haegon I would say a daughter is possibility but not a son. 

Not related but I am reworking when it comes to Gemstones and realized Lord of Harmony (Naath) is related to an Aztec demon figure called Obsidian Butterfly, and Maiden Made of Light is related to Harpy of Essos. 

[Tucu]

3 hours ago, St Daga said:

This would make some sense to what Mance seems to be searching for at Winterfell, and his interest does seem to lie in the crypts. But if he believes the horn is in Winterfell, what does he even have his wildlings digging for in the Frostfangs? Why go to all that wasted energy? Was it just to fool his wildling followers?

He probably thinks that the horn is an ancient grave, but have no idea in which one. He ran out of significant graves north of The Wall.

Quote

We opened half a hundred graves and let all those shades loose in the world, and never found the Horn of Joramun to bring this cold thing down!

Etimology time for the Horn of Jor-amun! For Jor there are some options: day in Old French, horse/stallion in Old Norse or maybe jǫrmun in Old Norse meaning great/strong (Stark?) For amun we have Amun/Ammon, the Hidden One, god of wind and later god of sun and creation (as Amun-Ra). He was later associated with the bull and the ram, so he is a Horned God. Could it be significant that the Stallion constellation is known as the Horned Lord by the wildlings?

For the full meaning of Joramun, I would go with Stark Hidden One, god of wind :-)

We have 3 gods of wind in ASOIAF:

-The Storm God of the Ironborn, enermy of the Drowned God and the Grey King. He lives in the Cloudy Hall, sends the storms to destroy the ironborn and has ravens as its creatures.

-The Goddess of the Wind of the Stormlands that fought Durran after he stole her daughter Elenei. The goddess and her husband (Sea God) smashed Durran's castles until Brandon the Builder built Storm's End for him

-Lord of the Skies of the Three Sisters; his storms were considered sacred by the men of the Three Sisters.

[Brad Stark]

I always thought Joramun was a reference to Jörmungandr, an ouroboros and mortal enemy of Thor.  This lead to all kinds of theories as to Thor-like characters, time loops, monsters breaking free of imprisonment, theories on dragons, etc.  This can go in so many directions, by itself, it doesn't lead us anywhere.

[Tucu]

11 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

I always thought Joramun was a reference to Jörmungandr, an ouroboros and mortal enemy of Thor.  This lead to all kinds of theories as to Thor-like characters, time loops, monsters breaking free of imprisonment, theories on dragons, etc.  This can go in so many directions, by itself, it doesn't lead us anywhere.

Jörmun-gandr is a compound word meaning something like great monster. As I mentioned Jormun can mean great or strong and could be a synonym of stark too.

[Matthew.]

4 hours ago, St Daga said:

This would make some sense to what Mance seems to be searching for at Winterfell, and his interest does seem to lie in the crypts. But if he believes the horn is in Winterfell, what does he even have his wildlings digging for in the Frostfangs? Why go to all that wasted energy? Was it just to fool his wildling followers?

I think Mance is chasing the very thin leads that he has to work with, based on legend and song. It's suggested that Joramun either broke his strength on the Wall, or was defeated by the Stark in Winterfell. Some of the broad strokes prospects that raises is that the Horn was either buried with Joramun (or any descendants that might have claimed the Horn), or claimed as a spoil of war by either the Watch or the Stark in Winterfell.

Mance already spent most of his life as a ranger, and he had the Frostfangs project, so it may be that the tombs of the Starks would be the next place he'd search, assuming he's still interesting in claiming the Horn as leverage. 

[Black Crow]

I think that there are two aspects to this which are worth considering.

First is the form of the horn itself. To me the horn and Mance's search for it sound a bit like Parsifal and the quest for the Holy Grail. The Grail itself is visualised as an elaborately decorated golden chalice studded with jewels - or perhaps more realistically the original simple cup has been enclosed within the jewelled chalice, just as Saints bones and other holy relics were turned into bling. Yet in reality when the Grail is found, it is the simple cup.

Similarly although the horn burned by Melisandre is a massive [dragon-binding?] horn encrusted with precious metals etc. there is a strong suspicion that the real Grail is the small, cracked old horn discovered in that cache below the Fist and currently assumed to be in the possession of one Samwell Tarly.

So if Sam's horn is indeed the Grail, then what is its purpose. I agree that Mance is now looking for it at Winterfell, but Winterfell is south of the Wall and so are Mance's people. As advertised it was sought to breach the Wall so that they could flood through and escape the blue-eyed lot. Now, the last thing Mance should want is to breach the Wall and let the blue-eyed lot through so why is he still looking for it?

If we return to the concept of the Wall as a magical demarcation between Ice and Fire and only incidentally a physical barrier, then we can see the Horn/Grail as a means of breaking down that barrier and ending the conflict, just as the Berlin Wall was broken down, ending the Cold [!] War just months before GRRM started writing this everyday tale of ordinary country-folk.

[dialt]

On 2/2/2019 at 10:56 AM, Tucu said:

The old stories about the Blackwoods can probably explain how the CoTF were expelled from the North too.

Luwin tells us that The Pact granted the forests to the CoTF:

Yet the Blackwoods claim to have ruled the Wolfswood during the Age of Heroes before being expelled by the Starks:

By the time the Andals arrived the Blackwood were already petty kings in the Riverlands. So the Blackwoods were ruling land that was assigned to the CoTF in the Pact.

From the South we get similar stories. Durran "the devout" returned the Rainwood to the CoTF and another Durran took it back for good a century later.

... I am still under the impression that maybe the pact was made between the children and “some” FM. Not all FM.

[Tucu]

There are two methaporical horns that could be the Horn of Joramun.

The first one is the NW's brothers, "I am the Horn that wakes the sleepers" doesn't sound that different from "woke giants from the earth"

The second one is of the shapes of the crescent moon described as "horned moon" in several chapters. For example:

Quote

Steam rising from an open belly, rich with the smells of blood and meat. A head staring sightlessly up at a horned moon, cheeks ripped and torn down to bloody bone, pits for eyes, neck ending in a ragged stump. A pool of frozen blood, glistening red and black.