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Platypus Rex

Poll: Is the House with the Red Door in Dorne?

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1 hour ago, Impbread said:

Fair point. I just feel like she is misremembering her childhood.

 

Possibly. I'm open to reasons why, but no lemons in Braavos isn't enough for me.

 

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Q: Dany remembers a lemon tree outside the house with the red door in Braavos, but citrus trees shouldn't really grow in Braavos' cold, foggy climate.  Is this discrepancy significant?  Does it point to some future revelations about Dany's past?  Thank you so much.

GRRM: Very perceptive of you.  Yes it does point to ... well, that would be telling.

 

Okay, now I think I see the argument. Thank you @Frey family reunion.

The lemon tree isn't important at all since GRRM basically is showing his ignorance of what a citrus tree can take. As I said, I live in a cold, foggy climate and they do just fine as long as there isn't a long freezing period. Now, it is important that he thinks that they don't do well in Braavos if he did indeed make a foreshadowing event out of it, but it still amounts to a red herring. The important bit is that he put a clue in there and it was found and he acknowledged it.

Now, what that revelation is can be debated. The most obvious is that the house wasn't in Braavos, but when does GRRM go with the blatantly obvious? We saw how intricate the long game of Illyrio and Varys is. It doesn't seem unlikely that there are things that Dany and Viserys had no clue about or were lied to about.

Now, Dany remembers the tree, but what about the weather?

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12 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

There is absolutely zero reason for the Martells to have ever had possession of Viserys and/or Daenerys. Their personal stake in the Targaryens was Rhaenys and Aegon, the children of their Martell sister, who were murdered in the sack of King's Landing. And it is clear that in the end Aerys did not trust the Martells, and believed they had betrayed Rhaegar and the royalist cause, and we have no reason to believe that Targaryen loyalists would entrust his alleged chosen heir Viserys to the Martells. At most we can say that after the deaths of all living adult Targaryens, the Martells, or at least Oberyn, eventually arranged to create a personal stake in the surviving Targaryens, by making the pact to wed Arianne to Viserys, but that marriage never materialized. The idea of the Martells ever having possession of, or even temporarily hosting in Dorne, the surviving Targaryens is without basis. 

I never said Viserys, just Dany.  And apparently I'm not being terribly clear.  If it is true, that Dany's early memories are of Dorne, then I don't think Dany is the daughter of Rhaella and Aerys.  Especially not of Rhaella.  I think, unknown to her, she is playing a part, much like Young Griff, unknown to him, is playing a part.  Young Griff is told that he is the son of Rhaegar and Elia.  Dany is told that she is the daughter of Aerys and Rhaella.  I'm not sure that either story is necessarily true.

Edited by Frey family reunion

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I am scared of saying this because it may open a can of worms but....

What if the lemon tree memory has something to do with Septa Lemore? Is this going to be a plot device at some point when they meet? Something Septa Lemore would use to sway Dany into a certain direction?

 

Also my vote is that the red door & lemon tree is in Braavos.

 

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1 minute ago, Frey family reunion said:

I never said Viserys, just Dany.  And apparently I'm not being terribly clear.  If it is true, that Dany's early memories are of Dorne, then I don't think Dany is the daughter of Rahella and Aerys.  Especially not of Rahella.  I think, unknown to her, she is playing a part, much like Young Griff, unknown to him, is playing a part.  Young Griff is told that he is the son of Rhaegar and Elia.  Dany is told that she is the daughter of Aerys and Rahella.  I'm not sure that either story is necessarily true.

No, it was perfectly clear that you are building one crackpot theory on another crackpot theory, neither of which have any foundation in the books.

Viserys might be a fool in the sense of being an entitled royal prince, who doesn't comprehend the limits of his power as the exiled lone surviving male of a deposed kingdom, but was not so young or foolish to be unaware if his sister went missing for weeks or months.

And he was clearly never trusted with being informed of his wedding pact.

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2 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

No.

If she is remembering some place in Westeros, I think it is likelier that she is remembering Dragonstone than Dorne:

The doors to the Great Hall were set in the mouth of a stone dragon. He told the servants to leave him outside. It would be better to enter alone; he must not appear feeble. Leaning heavily on his cane, Cressen climbed the last few steps and hobbled beneath the gateway teeth. A pair of guardsmen opened the heavy red doors before him, unleashing a sudden blast of noise and light. Cressen stepped down into the dragon's maw.

- ACOK: Prologue

But most likely, she is remembering a place in Essos where she actually has memory of living.

I think she would have remembered that the entire place looked like a dragon....

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Just now, Bael's Bastard said:

No, it was perfectly clear that you are building one crackpot theory on another crackpot theory, neither of which have any foundation in the books.

Viserys might be a fool in the sense of being an entitled royal prince, who doesn't comprehend the limits of his power as the exiled lone surviving male of a deposed kingdom, but was not so young or foolish to be unaware if his sister went missing for weeks or months.

And he was clearly never trusted with being informed of his wedding pact.

You're still not getting it.  Visersy wasn't fooled, Viserys was a part of it. 

Leaving aside the question of whether or not Viserys had a sister (and yes I do have a "crackpot" idea on that as well), my thought is that Viserys was taken to Braavos alone.  Where there appeared to be a dalliance with the Martells.  However, we know how cautious Doran Martell is.  He would never enter into an alliance with Viserys, unless Viserys could bring something to the table.  Namely an army.  So if Viserys is pledged to Arianne, what coin does this leave Viserys to acquire an army?  Viserys needed a bargaining chip, to enter into another alliance to gain an army.

So if Dorne is contemplating an alliance with Viserys, they provide Viserys with something that he could use to  gain an army in the future, a "sister", specifically, a princess.  A young girl that can pass for a Targaryen princess.  Just like Young Griff can pass for a Targaryen prince. 

So Viserys is tasked with raising this girl as his sister.  And then, lo and behold, Viserys uses the girl in a marriage pact, to obtain a Dothraki army. 

And the perfect part of this scenario, is that it just proves how meaningless titles and "legitimacy" really is.  Viserys a Targareyn royal, was less than the "shadow of a snake" and no true dragon.  And if you trace the Targaryen royal family at the time of the rebellion back to their source, you realize how far they really are from the bloodlines of the Dragon Lords of Aegon and his sisters.  The royal line was descended from Viserys II, who's dragon egg failed to hatch, and a banking family from Lys.

What if Dany became the Mother of Dragons, because her bloodlines were closer to the bloodlines of Aegon I and his sisters?  And the only way that could happen, is if she wasn't a "legitimate" Targaryen. 

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42 minutes ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

The lemon tree isn't important at all since GRRM basically is showing his ignorance of what a citrus tree can take. As I said, I live in a cold, foggy climate and they do just fine as long as there isn't a long freezing period. 

His universe, his rules.  Westerosi lemons don't need to follow your rules.

But I must say, I am rather skeptical of all these people who get on the internet, and say "I live in the Farao Islands, and we have tons of lemon trees growing all over the place."  Of course, even if that were true (which it isn't) it is perfectly plausible that Braavos is colder, and has more cloud cover, than the Faraos (which are warmed by the gulf stream, cloudy as they are).

You did not say exactly where you lived though.  My guess is, it is sunnier and warmer than the Faraos.  I'll bet it's not even as bad as Dublin, Ireland, or Edinburg, Scotland.  

Edited by Platypus Rex

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4 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

His universe, his rules.  Westerosi lemons don't need to follow your rules.

 

Exactly (except that they're "Planetosi" lemons ;)). Which pretty much makes my point that the science of lemon trees is irrelevant if the point of the memory was a literary device and not accurate background imagery just to fill the reader in on some of Dany's formative years.

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30 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

You're still not getting it.  Visersy wasn't fooled, Viserys was a part of it. 

No, again, I understood what you were proposing, but it is without foundation in the books. As I said, Viserys was clearly never trusted with being informed of his wedding pact. He was clearly not "a part of it," as you propose. Daenerys, Quentyn, and Doran make clear that Viserys was not and would not have been informed of any such plans. The idea of sniveling brat Viserys being in on the plot is ridiculous.

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Braavos.

Arya doesn't see a lemon tree, but that doesn't mean anything, as there are no trees in Braavos except from the pines at the isles and trees in gardens. And cultivated, a lemon tree can grow in much higher latitude when in natural conditions. Beside the fact that grown trees can take much worse weather conditions then young ones. So as @Three-Fingered Pete and @Gertrude said: The tree was cultivated, with enough care it can grow on Braavos. I would add: in it's youth it would be put inside during winter, but now it is able to withstand a normal Planetosi winter in Braavos (maybe they even pack it up during cold weather, one does this here in central Europe with plants not completely hardy.)

There is no reason for Dany to misremember at all.

 

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1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

No, again, I understood what you were proposing, but it is without foundation in the books. As I said, Viserys was clearly never trusted with being informed of his wedding pact. He was clearly not "a part of it," as you propose. Daenerys, Quentyn, and Doran make clear that Viserys was not and would not have been informed of any such plans. The idea of sniveling brat Viserys being in on the plot is ridiculous.

I think this is what you're referencing:

Quote

"No doubt that was why Prince Doran chose to keep the pact a secret," suggested Daenerys.  "If my brother Viserys had known that he had a Dornish princess waiting for him, he would have crossed to Sunspear as soon as he was old enough to wed."

"And thereby brought Robert's warhammer down upon himself, and Dorne as well," said Frog.  "My father was content to wait for the day that Prince Viserys found his army."

So why was Doran so sure that Viserys would find an army?  Why wasn't Dany and Quentyn made a part of the original marriage pact?  I think there is a definite possibility that Dorne had a hand in helping Viserys find an army.

 Perhaps Viserys may not have known about the part Dorne played in this, but I don't think he needs to.  Darry is the go between. 

Dorne gives Dany to Darry, and Darry tasks Viserys with raising Dany as his sister, so he can use her to buy an army. 

While an argument can certainly be made that Viserys would have treated Dany like dirt regardless, it's a definite possibility that his treatment of her could also be colored by the fact that he knew that she was a fraud, that he knew she wasn't a "true Targaryen". 

It also explains why there was no consideration from Viserys that he would ever marry Dany.  She was always meant to be the coin he needed to buy an army, no more no less.

Edited by Frey family reunion

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52 minutes ago, Morte said:

And cultivated, a lemon tree can grow in much higher latitude when in natural conditions.

 

Last science for now -

I've noticed that most plants couldn't care less about the temperature as long as it isn't extremely hot or extremely cold, i.e. no scorching or freezing temperatures. The two things that they seem to need the most/little of, if it is their particular need, are light and/or humidity. We have palm trees here too and they love the wet air even if it is cold. They grow just as tall/lush as in the tropics. It rarely freezes here, but it does get close at night in the winter, enough sometimes to have frost on the grass until the sun gets up. People have lost sensitive plants, especially fruit trees and rose bushes.

Braavos can get colder as the canals occasionally freeze IIRC, but it doesn't seem to be the norm in any way. The only thing so far I can see in the way of the house not being in Braavos is what I stated before, the weather. It seems to me that Dany would remember the lemon tree in terms of being one of the bright spots in an otherwise windy, clammy and sometimes rainy place, at least in the "winterish months" before a proper winter, but I don't recall any passages like that off the top of my head.

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3 hours ago, Ran said:

Finding out that the house with the red door was part of the Sealord's palace complex, and that the Sealord had basically provided them asylum for ends that we do not know, would be a revelation to me.  It moves it beyond his just being a witness to a marriage treaty to explicitly having a stake in whatever was going on from the outset, which rather makes one wonder just what was on his mind.

I suppose your idea is that there is more to this explanation than we can guess.  Because, by itself, the revelation that Viserys, in the early years of his exile, was hosted by rich and powerful people whose motives were probably not entirely altruous, is no more than we already knew. 

Basically, the significance of the lemon tree is that one of the rich and powerful people who hosted Viserys was  … TA-DA … rich and powerful.  In fact, he was SO reach and powerful, that he could afford his own hothouse!  But GRRM cannot say this, because "that would be telling".

Okay … maybe … but … call me unimpressed.  If that's what it is, maybe GRRM should have been a bit less dramatic with the "that would be telling" schtick.

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Just now, Platypus Rex said:

I suppose your idea is that there is more to this explanation than we can guess.  Because, by itself, the revelation that Viserys, in the early years of his exile, was hosted by rich and powerful people whose motives were probably not entirely altruous, is no more than we already knew. Basically, the significance of the lemon tree is that one of the rich and powerful people who hosted Viserys was  … TA-DA … rich and powerful.  In fact, he was SO reach and powerful, that he could afford his own hothouse!  But GRRM cannot say this, because "that would be telling".

Not just "rich and powerful". Illyrio is rich and powerful. The Sealord of Braavos is, on the other hand, leader of the wealthiest and most powerful of the Free Cities. That's up there a notch.

But yes, I would caution George being coy about things as meaning anything. I recall an occasion when people were throwing theories at him, and someone speculated that Hodor is named Hodor because he's brother to Gregor and Sandor, and George responded by offering people chips or cheetos or some such, which was his humorous go-to whenever he didn't want to answer something. Suffice it to say, his being coy then led some to be fully convinced that that was the secret of Hodor's name.

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1 minute ago, Ran said:

Not just "rich and powerful". Illyrio is rich and powerful. The Sealord of Braavos is, on the other hand, leader of the wealthiest and most powerful of the Free Cities. That's up there a notch.

But yes, I would caution George being coy about things as meaning anything. I recall an occasion when people were throwing theories at him, and someone speculated that Hodor is named Hodor because he's brother to Gregor and Sandor, and George responded by offering people chips or cheetos or some such, which was his humorous go-to whenever he didn't want to answer something. Suffice it to say, his being coy then led some to be fully convinced that that was the secret of Hodor's name.

But we're already specifically told that the Sealord of Braavos was hosting Viserys and Dany.  That's not a revelation.

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Just now, Frey family reunion said:

But we're already specifically told that the Sealord of Braavos was hosting Viserys and Dany.  That's not a revelation.

We have never been told this. All we know is they were in a house in Braavos, and then an agreement was signed between Willum Darry and Oberyn Martell that was witnessed by the Sealord. You can be in Braavos without being a personal guest of the Sealord.

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5 minutes ago, Ran said:

We have never been told this. All we know is they were in a house in Braavos, and then an agreement was signed between Willum Darry and Oberyn Martell that was witnessed by the Sealord. You can be in Braavos without being a personal guest of the Sealord.

Hmm, I may be conflating Syrio's story with Dany, fair enough.  See, isn't it funny how one's memory of things can play tricks on you? :D

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1 minute ago, Frey family reunion said:

Hmm, I may be conflating Syrio's story with Dany, fair enough.  See, isn't it funny how one's memory of things can play tricks on you? :D

True. Yeah, Syrio is the first and only person to ever mention the Sealord in AGoT, and the Sealord is not mentioned again in the main text until AFfC.

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9 minutes ago, Ran said:

Not just "rich and powerful". Illyrio is rich and powerful. The Sealord of Braavos is, on the other hand, leader of the wealthiest and most powerful of the Free Cities. That's up there a notch.

But yes, I would caution George being coy about things as meaning anything. I recall an occasion when people were throwing theories at him, and someone speculated that Hodor is named Hodor because he's brother to Gregor and Sandor, and George responded by offering people chips or cheetos or some such, which was his humorous go-to whenever he didn't want to answer something. Suffice it to say, his being coy then led some to be fully convinced that that was the secret of Hodor's name.

You're no longer talking about the significance of the lemon tree it seems.  Or does GRRM really expect us to grade levels of power on the basis of types of trees in gardens.  Illyrio has cherry trees in his garden, proving that, however, rich he was, he was not a political powerhouse.  But the house with the red door had LEMON trees … clearly a sign of REAL power.  

Is Illyrio not rich enough for a hothouse (to keep his lemon trees alive), if that's what he really really wants?  Is it not more likely, as a matter of personal whim, that he's just not THAT interested in lemon trees?

And sure.  GRRM could be just trolling us.  But there is a distinction between refusing to answer a question, and choosing to answer it in a misleading way.  He could have ignored this question entirely, by just not answering it.  He would not even have needed to pass the chips.

 

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