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Ser Dips A lot

Stannis Baratheon becomes King, and needs an heir

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If Stannis Baratheon manages to secure the Iron Throne and defeats the Lannister-Tyrell alliance, what would his next move be in terms of heirs?

I created this thread particularly because of Edric Storm. I know Stannis seems to resent the child since afterall he was conceived on Stannis’ wedding night, in Stannis’ wedding bed, by the disrespectful King Robert. But, presume Stannis takes a liking to the boy, maybe through some time by his side or perhaps Edric comes to some use or serves a purpose in the aid of Stannis. Could Stannis legitimize Edric Storm as ‘Edric Baratheon’ without contradicting his own claim as King?  It’s agreed that sons of older brothers inherit lordship and kingship before younger brothers such as Stannis, but how does this situation work? Does this conflict with Stannis’ hierarchy as rightful heir or could he just say “No, I am King by all laws of Westeros since Roberts “true children” were basterds and Edric is my choice as heir, as my nephew...?

Stannis is, in my opinion, unwise to name Shireen his heir and have her wed to another noble house. This would generate an unusual situation being that she would be the first female Baratheon in line to inherit the throne and the first female in line to inherit since the Targaryen era. Does Stannis really want his successor to be a girl he’s not too particularly fond of, that atleast has Stannis’ blood, married to a King consort from another house, or does he want to elevate Edric to Crown Prince and name him as heir. Maybe he marries Shireen to Edric and simplifies the whole scenario. I don’t know. I just know that Stannis The Mannis needs a badass Baratheon after him to carry on his legacy after he drains the swamp and restores the Weseros to its former glory.

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What we seem to know implies that legitimized bastards take the place in birth order they would have if they were trueborn from birth - at least that's the case with Addam and Alyn of Hull after they have been legitimized as Velaryons. And that would also mean that Jon Snow would have a stronger claim to Winterfell as Jon Stark than Brandon, Rickon, Sansa, and Arya because he is older than they are.

In Edric's case that would mean he is now Edric Baratheon, oldest surviving son of King Robert Baratheon (he is twelve years in 299 AC, and thus older than Tommen), and thus Robert's rightful heir, who has a much better claim than Stannis.

It would be foolish of him to do that.

If Stannis doesn't want his ugly daughter to succeed him he should father himself some living, non-shadowy sons, either on his queen, or on some other woman (although not Mel who likely cannot give birth to normal children) and then legitimize those bastards. Without that, he is stuck with his daughter.

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Have you ever considered.  Maybe Stannis loves his daughter.  A loving father would want his daughter to inherit his kingdom.  Shireen will be the first ruling female but that is a very small hurdle as long as Stannis wins his war.  The winner gets to make the rules and the dissenters get to pucker their rectums and suck it up silently.  

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You can think it unwise all you like, Stannis would still see Shireen as his heir, unless he has a trueborn son of his own. 

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Stannis doesn't show any affection to Shireen in the books, and she is clearly not his preferred heir. He wanted sons, and he actually offered Renly to name him heir in her place should he bend the knee to him. His daughter is all he has got, so it has to be her for the time being, but she is not the heir a man like he would want.

And he makes that very clear.

Shireen is stuck with her mother and hangs out with Patches. She has no place at her father's side. She is old enough to get some preliminary training at ruling - as Rhaenyra did as her father's cupbearer, but Stannis never allows her to attend his councils or when he holds court.

The man cannot really stand women, Melisandre sort of excluded. And even in her presence he is not exactly at ease, despite the fact that they sleep together.

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44 minutes ago, Great Oshiro said:

Have you ever considered.  Maybe Stannis loves his daughter.  A loving father would want his daughter to inherit his kingdom.  Shireen will be the first ruling female but that is a very small hurdle as long as Stannis wins his war.  The winner gets to make the rules and the dissenters get to pucker their rectums and suck it up silently.  

 

40 minutes ago, Euron III Greyjoy said:

You can think it unwise all you like, Stannis would still see Shireen as his heir, unless he has a trueborn son of his own. 

Stannis offered Renly to be his heir. He doesn’t want Shireen to be his successor; Shireen is his last resort. Stubborn as he may be, he knows that Shireen is weak and offering his younger brother, that he doesn’t even love, the position of his heir shows this. 

Who would be the King consort if Shireen inherits? A Martell maybe?

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1 hour ago, Ser Dips A lot said:

Stannis offered Renly to be his heir. He doesn’t want Shireen to be his successor; Shireen is his last resort. Stubborn as he may be, he knows that Shireen is weak and offering his younger brother, that he doesn’t even love, the position of his heir shows this. 

Who would be the King consort if Shireen inherits? A Martell maybe?

Well besides himself and Shireen, there are no longer any trueborn Baratheons. The Baratheon bastards we have are Mya Stone, Gendry, Bella, and Edric Storm. The only one that would make sense as a potential heir would be Edric, and I doubt he plans on coming back to Westeros until Stannis and Melisandre are dead. 

I have no idea who Shireen's consort would be, it depends on who's still alive by the time he's sitting on the throne, which isn't going to happen anyway, and also who'd be willing to marry a girl with greyscale. 

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Stannis believes in law. The most popular interpretation of IT inheritance law is that a brother comes before a daughter. As seen with Baelon and Viserys having preference over Rhaenys, and later with Viserys 2 inheriting over Daena and her sisters. Him declaring Renly would be his heir over Shireen is merely that, a statement of law. When that option no longer presents itself later, he flatly tells Justin Massey that Shireen would sit the iron throne should he die.

As for a consort, the ideal candidate is a spare son of a great house. So a Bran or Loras or Trystane. Failing those three, similar candidates from a further rung down. 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Fat Trell said:

As for a consort, the ideal candidate is a spare son of a great house. So a Bran or Loras or Trystane. Failing those three, similar candidates from a further rung down.  

I love how you list three ineligible candidates. Loras is a kingsguard, Bran is a cripple, and Trystane is already taken.

A better bunch of candidates would be one of the Hightower sons and... honestly that's about it. Every major noble house in Westeros is down to pretty much their heir and nobody else. 

Edited by Floki of the Ironborn

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Stannis isn't the most affectionate brother/husband/father/friend/whatever. He mistrust love like a weakness. But it's not a cruel father like Tywin Lannister. WHen Alester Florent ploted to marry her to Tommen (a bastard born from incest)he was really upset.

He values Shireen enough to make her learn history and writing at Dragonstone with the maester. WHile many lordly parents kept their daughters iletrate. She is still too young to by at councils. And of course an army isn't a place for a young girl, especialy in the hard northern campaign.  Also I don't think she has good health.

And also her mother keeps her at her said during her decision-making in Castle Black. So Shireen is learning from someone. If that someone has something to teach, that's another thema.

I think Stannis apreciates his girl, but still hopes he will have boys some day. I think it's interesting despite accepting R'hllor faith (that's mean considering all other faiths a fake) he hasn't re-married his wife by his new religion rithual. Maybe that means he keeps open an option to marry a more fertile woman in a future. But I doubt it. His word is steel.

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Is Shireen even a viable heir?  She had Greyscale as an infant and while she survived, did it have an impact on her ability to bear children?

It would be kind of pointless to name an heir and then have the line end with him/her.  

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Name Shireen the heir and marry Edric to Shireen.

I suspect Jon will become something of a son to Stannis, being so similar in nature. So if  Jon’s true parentage becomes known,  marrying Jon and Shireen would merge the two claims and perhaps also end the feud between Targaryen and Baratheon since Jon would be the head of house Targaryen. 

 

Btw, Stannis needs no heir besides Shireen; he intends for her to succeed him and made it very clear with the order he’s given to Massey. 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Name Shireen the heir and marry Edric to Shireen.

I suspect Jon will become something of a son to Stannis, being so similar in nature. So if  Jon’s true parentage becomes known,  marrying Jon and Shireen would merge the two claims and perhaps also end the feud between Targaryen and Baratheon since Jon would be the head of house Targaryen. 

 

Btw, Stannis needs no heir besides Shireen; he intends for her to succeed him and made it very clear with the order he’s given to Massey. 

Edric is a good idea for merging competing Baratheon claims, but there doesn’t seem a lot of danger in that right now. Stannis has a more pressing need for allies. Imo a marriage to Rickon or Robert Arryn would be more beneficial (in a hypothetical where Stannis is sitting The IT and cementing his rule).

id add the caveat that in this scenario I would be keeping a close eye on Edric because there are bound to be those who would use him to get to the throne

 

edit - I agree with other sources that he is only making shireen heir from necessity. He isn’t some women’s rights champion. He is distinctly uncomfortable around women and believes Rhaenyra was never the rightful queen. I imagine he intends whoever Shireen marries to at the very least have a big input into reigning

Edited by HelenaExMachina

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If a King only has a daughter, he will marry her to a powerful lord. Not to a bastard boy without any suporter. Nobody in the Stormlands suports Edric claim to Storm's End. Legitimazing him would be a mistake. Also he and Shireen are first grade cousins. Maybe it's simply incestuous. 

 

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20 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Edric is a good idea for merging competing Baratheon claims, but there doesn’t seem a lot of danger in that right now. Stannis has a more pressing need for allies. Imo a marriage to Rickon or Robert Arryn would be more beneficial (in a hypothetical where Stannis is sitting The IT and cementing his rule).

id add the caveat that in this scenario I would be keeping a close eye on Edric because there are bound to be those who would use him to get to the throne

 

edit - I agree with other sources that he is only making shireen heir from necessity. He isn’t some women’s rights champion. He is distinctly uncomfortable around women and believes Rhaenyra was never the rightful queen. I imagine he intends whoever Shireen marries to at the very least have a big input into reigning

 

There was indeed talk of marrying her to Robert Arryn at the start of ACOK and I suspect Jon Arryn may have thought of it when he intended to send Robyn as a ward to Stannis.

 

Not being a women's rights champion does not neccessarily mean he is against women getting rights. Also I'd like to see the quote on his thoughts with Rhaenyra.

 

He isn't  making Shireen out of neccesity, he may as well legitimise Edric, a "great bastard" and become a hand for his nephew, marry shireen to him or not depending on his choice.

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Stannis has no emotional connection to Shireen that we are aware of. He didn't interact with her, once, during the books, and if he gave a crap about her future and supposed reign he would keep her close by his side and prepare her for that. She doesn't have to ride with him into battle, of course, but had Stannis had a son Shireen's age he certainly would have been at his side at the Battle beyond the Wall. He would have waited with his father and Melisandre until the battle was over.

Instead, Stannis left his daughter at Eastwatch. During the war against Renly and the Lannisters he left her at home, too. He doesn't care about her, but in a situation as precarious as he is in right now, he needs an heir. He needs his people to believe that his cause won't die with him.

But I don't actually think he believe he will die or that his daughter is ever going to succeed him. I think he still believes he will have sons one day, perhaps by Mel or another queen if Selyse should die. I cannot imagine him feeling comfortable at the thought that he is going to be another Viserys I, a king who actually makes a woman his successor. That would be against his nature, and the fact that he offered his brother to be his heir while he still had had that brother means he doesn't care much about Shireen's rights.

Even the betrothal to Tommen was not so much a problem because of Shireen but because it involved him giving up his claim.

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Stannis was livid about the Tommen proposal. Tommen is a "bastard born of incest," and Shireen is the Crown Princess. It's an unforgivable insult. 

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1 hour ago, LindsayLohan said:

Stannis was livid about the Tommen proposal. Tommen is a "bastard born of incest," and Shireen is the Crown Princess. It's an unforgivable insult. 

Well, the guy should check whether he can prove his personal beliefs before he burns close in-laws he has actually authorized to speak with his voice and then refused to interact with thereafter because he was depressed... ;-).

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