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Events you are most looking forward to see in TWOW

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On 11/2/2019 at 11:10 AM, Elegant Woes said:

No I don't think it won't happen. In fact I believe that Jon and Dany's dynamic will be uglier in the books, because Jon is a whole lot more cunning and ruthless Dany is more gullible and trusting. GRRM doesn't intend to hold back any punches. We should expect a Dance of Dragons 2.0 to happen with these two. 

Agreed.

In fact, I think Dany will fall head over heels in love with Jon and bleed her own armies for his sake but, since Jon will no longer be a POV charater, no one -- not Dany, not the other characters, not the reader -- will be quite sure if Jon feels the same way about her. Or worse, if Jon is just using her.

On 11/2/2019 at 2:51 PM, BalerionTheCat said:

Val doesn't' want Shireen dead by cruelty. She seems absolutely sure and wants to protect everyone else.

In absolute she is as major a character as Tormund. I believe she has not much screen time because GRRM is hiding her place in the end game. I believe she is one of the keys to the Old Gods and the Others. She knows much about them apparently. IMO, she is the White Melissandre, an Old God priestess.

Totally agree.

I think Val will be important in these next two books. I don't see her really being that important after the Others are dealt with. Maybe, for the first time in her life, Dany finds a romantic/sexual rival in Val.

On 11/2/2019 at 2:13 PM, BalerionTheCat said:

I thought this sub-forum should be free of show spoilers.

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But with all the enemies waiting Daenerys in the south, I don't know how she will come North. Or how Jon will involve himself in this viper's nest. Maybe the Others will come South, seeking her dragons. Or the Red Priests will want her fighting the Others.

I think Jon will do what he did in the show and come south and try to spread the word about the Others. I don't think Jon will go down there without some kind of bodyguard; book Jon is much too smart for that, even before his death.

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On 11/2/2019 at 8:00 AM, Elegant Woes said:

Sansa in the Vale. If we go by the words of Cogman then her storyline is bound to be anything but predictable.

Jon at the Wall. How will his resurrection take place? Has he warged into Ghost. 

Cersei. I am curious what she will do. Will she make a comeback? I think she will.

Dany. Since she has chosen Fire & Blood I am very excited in her character development. Just how dark will she go in TWOW? 

I think Dany and Tyrion will both be going pretty dark in The Winds of Winter. I think Dany will lighten up quite a bit over the course of A Dream of Spring but I have this sneaking suspicion that Tyrion will only get worse.

On 11/2/2019 at 10:58 AM, Nagini's Neville said:

Hm, that's harsh :( Do you actually think Dany and Jon (like in the show) won't happen at all?

I do think Dany and Jon will happen.

But I agree with @Elegant Woes. Magic will cease to exist in all of Planetos, not just Westeros. With that means, yes, the giants, the CoTF and the direwolves go. But it also means that the Targaryens, the Starks and the other more magical bloodlines will both eventually go extinct. So, I don't see Jon or Dany (nor have I ever seen them) surviving the book series. Bran will get the last chapter a couple decades into the future but he'll die too. I expect the epilogue to be narrated by a character in the far, far distant future. Maybe a thousand  years later when Dany, Cersei, Jon, Catelyn, etc. are all just characters in a children's book at worst and obscure historical figures at best.

 

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On 10/30/2019 at 2:45 AM, Lord Invictus said:

I seriously doubt this,  if only because Tyrion won’t have the power to carry out ruthless acts much himself but will have to rely on manipulating, cajoling and getting other people to act for him most importantly Dany. 

Exactly.

That's what I'm saying. That's worst. Tywin got people to do his dirty work for him (i.e. Red Wedding). Why not Tyrion?

It's like he'll be a lovechild of Varys and Tywin

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51 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I think Jon will do what he did in the show and come south and try to spread the word about the Others. I don't think Jon will go down there without some kind of bodyguard; book Jon is much too smart for that, even before his death.

It is pretty common in westeros for enemies to find some neutral ground to talk. And it is pretty logical for danny to want an aliance with the north… Honestly, I think jon will take a wight south (they are look easier to catch in the books and now it is colder) and warn people about the others.

56 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

But I agree with @Elegant Woes. Magic will cease to exist in all of Planetos, not just Westeros. With that means, yes, the giants, the CoTF and the direwolves go. But it also means that the Targaryens, the Starks and the other more magical bloodlines will both eventually go extinct. So, I don't see Jon or Dany (nor have I ever seen them) surviving the book series. Bran will get the last chapter a couple decades into the future but he'll die too. I expect the epilogue to be narrated by a character in the far, far distant future. Maybe a thousand  years later when Dany, Cersei, Jon, Catelyn, etc. are all just characters in a children's book at worst and obscure historical figures at best.

I never understood the idea that magic will end… For me the exact oposite is happening in the story. We start with no magic and as the story progresses magic is coming alive. It stands to reason that by the end there will be a new age of magic with a new greenseer, dragons, wargs and whatever they find out to end the long night...

59 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I think Val will be important in these next two books. I don't see her really being that important after the Others are dealt with. Maybe, for the first time in her life, Dany finds a romantic/sexual rival in Val.

I think if val was that important she would have appeared in the show. As things stand, if jon leaves the Wall she might become just a secondary character that represents a minority of the wildlings. Or maybe she will become important in the end in order to keep the northerns and wildlings United.

1 hour ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

In fact, I think Dany will fall head over heels in love with Jon and bleed her own armies for his sake but, since Jon will no longer be a POV charater, no one -- not Dany, not the other characters, not the reader -- will be quite sure if Jon feels the same way about her. Or worse, if Jon is just using her.

I doubt jon will stop being a pov character. Contrary to cat whose story basically ended with the red wedding jon's is just starting. With the starks losing their power cat lost her importance… And I have no idea if she won t become a pov again… Jon is a character that has been developing for the story that is starting now! Losing his pov makes his chapters mostly wasted time…

And I just can t imagine jon using someone's feelings for him to manipulate that person...  If they aren t in a relationship I could see jon trying to use her to save the north. But not in an underhanded way… It would be similar to how he manipulated stannis to let the wildlings stay on the Wall.

 

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15 hours ago, divica said:

It is pretty common in westeros for enemies to find some neutral ground to talk. And it is pretty logical for danny to want an aliance with the north… Honestly, I think jon will take a wight south (they are look easier to catch in the books and now it is colder) and warn people about the others.

I never understood the idea that magic will end… For me the exact oposite is happening in the story. We start with no magic and as the story progresses magic is coming alive. It stands to reason that by the end there will be a new age of magic with a new greenseer, dragons, wargs and whatever they find out to end the long night...

I think if val was that important she would have appeared in the show. As things stand, if jon leaves the Wall she might become just a secondary character that represents a minority of the wildlings. Or maybe she will become important in the end in order to keep the northerns and wildlings United.

I doubt jon will stop being a pov character. Contrary to cat whose story basically ended with the red wedding jon's is just starting. With the starks losing their power cat lost her importance… And I have no idea if she won t become a pov again… Jon is a character that has been developing for the story that is starting now! Losing his pov makes his chapters mostly wasted time…

And I just can t imagine jon using someone's feelings for him to manipulate that person...  If they aren t in a relationship I could see jon trying to use her to save the north. But not in an underhanded way… It would be similar to how he manipulated stannis to let the wildlings stay on the Wall.

 

With massive fire-breathing dragons flying overhead, the dead coming back to life and trying to eat living people and a greyscale plague turning everyone else into monsters, I doubt that finding a neutral ground will even be feasible in Westeros.

I don't think magic will end on its own. As if it will burn out? Nah, I think the "Never Daenerys" contingent will join forces with the anti-magic conspiracy at the Citadel -- which Sam is already party to -- and plot against Daenerys. I think that the two movements will gradually become one and the same (especially after the Others and Euron are dealt with) since Daenerys is standing to arrive with Westeros with a score of red priests, a maester who is practically a wizard, a contingent of Dothraki seers and three dragons.

Given Jon's rather conservative views, I can see how Jon can be misled - by mainly Tyrion - and caught up with the wrong side - thank you Samwell - which leads to him killing Daenerys, who will likely be both his wife and the mother of his child (born or unborn) at that time. And there's no reason for Jon and Daenerys to not be in a relationship, much less married. This is a game of thrones, a political drama. Marriage to consolidate alliances and bolster military power and social standing has been the name of the game since Day 0.

So while the fire side of magic will die and be extinguish, the ice side will live on at least a little while longer in Bran and his sisters. But the ice has to melt sometime.

I don't know. I think GRRM has an anti-death POV policy. Eddard Stark never got a post-mortem chapter nor did he even get the chance of dying in his own POV chapter. Cat and Jon are different in that they are coming back but I think GRRM wants to keep death a mystery for the characters and the reader both. Besides, doesn't it strike you as strange that Melisandre is getting a POV chapter and is staying at the Wall?

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1 hour ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Given Jon's rather conservative views, I can see how Jon can be misled - by mainly Tyrion - and caught up with the wrong side - thank you Samwell - which leads to him killing Daenerys, who will likely be both his wife and the mother of his child (born or unborn) at that time. And there's no reason for Jon and Daenerys to not be in a relationship, much less married. This is a game of thrones, a political drama. Marriage to consolidate alliances and bolster military power and social standing has been the name of the game since Day 0.

 

Based on what do you conclude that Jon's views are conservative? The Pomegranate, Bowen Marsh is the voice of conservative views among NW, Jon is the one willing to take big risks to save lives.

That said, his willingness to take extreme measures to protect the things he values very well could lead him to kill Dany.

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11 minutes ago, honeyed chicken said:

Based on what do you conclude that Jon's views are conservative? The Pomegranate, Bowen Marsh is the voice of conservative views among NW, Jon is the one willing to take big risks to save lives.

:agree:

Jon is the one who’s not only willing to do whatever he can to save as many as possible, but also he’s the person trying to bring much-needed changes to the NW. Bowen Marsh and his cronies are the xenophobic homophobic cowards trying to maintain the status quo at all cost. 

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1 hour ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

With massive fire-breathing dragons flying overhead, the dead coming back to life and trying to eat living people and a greyscale plague turning everyone else into monsters, I doubt that finding a neutral ground will even be feasible in Westeros.

We have no idea if there will be a greyscale pandemic, if the dragons will have free reign to burn whatever they want and the meeting needs to happen before the dead cross the Wall. After the recent story in westeros I don t think jon would meet danny in a place he doesn t feel safe. There has been too many backstabings and his own brothers just tried to kill him… I think that after this ordeal jon will at least be much more carefull about people betraying him...

1 hour ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

don't think magic will end on its own. As if it will burn out? Nah, I think the "Never Daenerys" contingent will join forces with the anti-magic conspiracy at the Citadel -- which Sam is already party to -- and plot against Daenerys. I think that the two movements will gradually become one and the same (especially after the Others and Euron are dealt with) since Daenerys is standing to arrive with Westeros with a score of red priests, a maester who is practically a wizard, a contingent of Dothraki seers and three dragons.

Given Jon's rather conservative views, I can see how Jon can be misled - by mainly Tyrion - and caught up with the wrong side - thank you Samwell - which leads to him killing Daenerys, who will likely be both his wife and the mother of his child (born or unborn) at that time. And there's no reason for Jon and Daenerys to not be in a relationship, much less married. This is a game of thrones, a political drama. Marriage to consolidate alliances and bolster military power and social standing has been the name of the game since Day 0.

So while the fire side of magic will die and be extinguish, the ice side will live on at least a little while longer in Bran and his sisters. But the ice has to melt sometime.

Well, the first problem I see is that jon is not only magic (warg and maybe some kind of phisical boost when angry) but he seems to be friendly towards magically beings like the Giants. Besides, he will probably need to look for more magic to fight the others… 

So I think one of the arcs of jon story will be about accepting his magic and that magic isn t evil. It is just a weapon and the people that use it are the ones that are either evil or good. So if he turns against danny it will be because he thinks she isn t the right person to rule westeros instead of because she has magic... 

Another important thing is that euron looks like he is going to strike this anti magic movement and that several lords are starting to be vocal about their dislike of maesters. If we add the need of magic to defeat the others and some desperate actions of some maesters to try and kill all these people that are using magic and I see this movement ending instead of the magical beings… I reaaly think we will have the reverse trope of magic ending and technology developing. In asoiaf technology will be defeated by magic and we will see the old ways returning...

And while I agree that the logical action for jon and danny is to marry I think they have very diferent imediate objectives. They need to talk first… But maybe danny could land in the north and speed this event… THAT would be smart for grrm.

2 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I don't know. I think GRRM has an anti-death POV policy. Eddard Stark never got a post-mortem chapter nor did he even get the chance of dying in his own POV chapter. Cat and Jon are different in that they are coming back but I think GRRM wants to keep death a mystery for the characters and the reader both. Besides, doesn't it strike you as strange that Melisandre is getting a POV chapter and is staying at the Wall?

No character dies in his pov. So if he wanted people to believe that jon might be dead grrm would need another pov on the Wall. And grrm already had a character talking about the efects of ressurection… 

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2 hours ago, honeyed chicken said:

Based on what do you conclude that Jon's views are conservative? The Pomegranate, Bowen Marsh is the voice of conservative views among NW, Jon is the one willing to take big risks to save lives.

That said, his willingness to take extreme measures to protect the things he values very well could lead him to kill Dany.

He's not that conservative. Less than the likes of Stannis and Marsh but more as far as Dany and the Summer Islanders are concerned.

He is also not willing to accept Stannis' offer because of his more traditional views concerning the Night's Watch (Stannis as king could technically relieve him of his oath), the Lordship of Winterfell and the godswood therein. He is also very averse to exploring his skinchanging powers; he doesn't want Melisandre's help but he takes no steps to teach himself. And he's known about his nature as a skinchanger since A Clash of Kings.

2 hours ago, divica said:

We have no idea if there will be a greyscale pandemic, if the dragons will have free reign to burn whatever they want and the meeting needs to happen before the dead cross the Wall. After the recent story in westeros I don t think jon would meet danny in a place he doesn t feel safe. There has been too many backstabings and his own brothers just tried to kill him… I think that after this ordeal jon will at least be much more carefull about people betraying him...

We don't know for sure. But there are very, very big hints. There's Shireen the Ticking Time Bomb at the Wall and we have no reason to disbelieve Val or the other wildlings about the dangers of greyscale. Jon Connington's greyscale is active and getting worse: unlike Shireen's parents, he has no intention of making himself non-contagious. And he's keeping it secret. And he's on the move...everyone who is coming in close contact with him or his infected clothing is in danger. Chiefly the servants and their families and neighbors.

Jon is unlikely to feel safe in his own bedroom in Winterfell after he comes back to life. Everywhere will be dangerous come A Dream of Spring as far as he will likely be concerned.

2 hours ago, divica said:

No character dies in his pov. So if he wanted people to believe that jon might be dead grrm would need another pov on the Wall. And grrm already had a character talking about the efects of ressurection… 

Then why not have a Catelyn POV return. She's clearly still very active and she's not a literal brainless zombie. She has a clear agenda and is capable of reason

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7 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

He's not that conservative. Less than the likes of Stannis and Marsh but more as far as Dany and the Summer Islanders are concerned.

He is also not willing to accept Stannis' offer because of his more traditional views concerning the Night's Watch (Stannis as king could technically relieve him of his oath), the Lordship of Winterfell and the godswood therein. He is also very averse to exploring his skinchanging powers; he doesn't want Melisandre's help but he takes no steps to teach himself. And he's known about his nature as a skinchanger since A Clash of Kings.

This isn t really true. Jon refuses stannis offer because it would mean to renounce his gods and beliefs. It isn t a matter of being conservative but being true to oneself.

About skinchanging I agree. But on the other hand, until the end of dance everybody that could teach him is rather creepy. Mel, orell, varamyr… I don t think any of these people are trustworthy enough… And he was also worried about what his men would think.

12 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

We don't know for sure. But there are very, very big hints. There's Shireen the Ticking Time Bomb at the Wall and we have no reason to disbelieve Val or the other wildlings about the dangers of greyscale. Jon Connington's greyscale is active and getting worse: unlike Shireen's parents, he has no intention of making himself non-contagious. And he's keeping it secret. And he's on the move...everyone who is coming in close contact with him or his infected clothing is in danger. Chiefly the servants and their families and neighbors.

Jon is unlikely to feel safe in his own bedroom in Winterfell after he comes back to life. Everywhere will be dangerous come A Dream of Spring as far as he will likely be concerned.

I think shireen will die before she really becomes a problem. There are too many clues about her death… In regards to jon con, I think it is pointless to talk about him starting a greyscale crisis because it's consequences or how it might start are just unpredictable. Anything anyone says about it are possible...

In regards to jon, I think the biggest obstacle for him and danny to form na aliance is exactly them finding a situation where both feel safe and can discuss their problems. Danny has to convince him to conquer KL and he has to convince her to fight the others. Both situations need dialogue and persuasion.

19 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Then why not have a Catelyn POV return. She's clearly still very active and she's not a literal brainless zombie. She has a clear agenda and is capable of reason

And why have one pov after her return? Maybe grrm simply thought she didn t do enough to justify a pov chapter or wanted to keep her actions a mistery in affc… We don t know grrm's mind.I don t even know if he confirmed LSH or cat won t have pov chapters ever again...

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48 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

He's not that conservative. Less than the likes of Stannis and Marsh but more as far as Dany and the Summer Islanders are concerned.

Not sure what you mean w/ the comparison here? In what sense is Jon more conservative than Dany and the summer islanders?

Quote

He is also not willing to accept Stannis' offer because of his more traditional views concerning the Night's Watch (Stannis as king could technically relieve him of his oath), the Lordship of Winterfell and the godswood therein.

This is incorrect. Jon ponders Stannis’s offer and is leaning towards accepting it while thinking about the NW and the likes of Slynt and his cronies being in charge. It’s only when he sees Ghost and thinks of the heart tree in Wintefell’s godswood that he makes up his mind. And part of the offer is to destroy the heart tree, so...

ASoS, Jon XII

You can’t be the Lord of Winterfell, you’re bastard-born, he heard Robb say again. And the stone kings were growling at him with granite tongues. You do not belong here. This is not your place. When Jon closed his eyes he saw the heart tree, with its pale limbs, red leaves, and solemn face. The weirwood was the heart of Winterfell, Lord Eddard always said . . . but to save the castle Jon would have to tear that heart up by its ancient roots, and feed it to the red woman’s hungry fire god. I have no right, he thought. Winterfell belongs to the old gods.”

[…]

Ygritte wanted me to be a wildling. Stannis wants me to be the Lord of Winterfell. But what do I want? The sun crept down the sky to dip behind the Wall where it curved through the western hills. Jon watched as that towering expanse of ice took on the reds and pinks of sunset. Would I sooner be hanged for a turncloak by Lord Janos, or forswear my vows, marry Val, and become the Lord of Winterfell? It seemed an easy choice when he thought of it in those terms . . . though if Ygritte had still been alive, it might have been even easier.

[…]

“Gods, wolf, where have you been?” Jon said when Ghost stopped worrying at his forearm. “I thought you’d died on me, like Robb and Ygritte and all the rest. I’ve had no sense of you, not since I climbed the Wall, not even in dreams.” The direwolf had no answer, but he licked Jon’s face with a tongue like a wet rasp, and his eyes caught the last light and shone like two great red suns.
Red eyes, Jon realized, but not like Melisandre’s. He had a weirwood’s eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one. And he alone of all the direwolves was white. Six pups they’d found in the late summer snows, him and Robb; five that were grey and black and brown, for the five Starks, and one white, as white as Snow.
He had his answer then.”

48 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

He is also very averse to exploring his skinchanging powers; he doesn't want Melisandre's help but he takes no steps to teach himself. And he's known about his nature as a skinchanger since A Clash of Kings.

I completely disagree... I never saw Jon as being “very averse to exploring his skinchanging powers”. He doesn’t have the benefit of a tutor, and Mel is probably the most ill-suited person to do this anyway. He is learning though, and Borroq will probably play a part in helping Jon understand his gift. 

Edited by kissdbyfire

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@divica@kissdbyfire

I stand corrected on the points of Jon's conservatism. You're both right.

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

I completely disagree... I never saw Jon as being “very averse to exploring his skinchanging powers”. He doesn’t have the benefit of a tutor, and Mel is probably the most ill-suited person to do this anyway. He is learning though, and Borroq will probably play a part in helping Jon understand his gift. 

Well I did.

Arya didn't have the benefit of a tutor yet she regularly wargs into Nymeria over vast distances and teaches herself how to skinchange cats to the point where no one knows what she is doing except for her....that's something which Varamyr has said is very difficult.

Bran did what was previously thought impossible by skinchanging into another human. Eventually, he learns to do it with frightening ease.

That quote you brought up earlier makes a valid point: what DOES Jon want

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On 11/7/2019 at 3:18 PM, Jabar of House Titan said:

Exactly.

That's what I'm saying. That's worst. Tywin got people to do his dirty work for him (i.e. Red Wedding). Why not Tyrion?

It's like he'll be a lovechild of Varys and Tywin

I get the impression you seem set on Tyrion as some sort of arch antagonist. Which he is definitely not.

Tyrion won’t be the only one competing for Dany’s ear, and I doubt he will always get his way. 

And that gets to the issue of what is Tyrion going to do when he returns with Daenerys and her coterie, dragons and armies? Presumably take Casterly Rock via the sewers. And maybe serve as a strategist for Dany’s war against Aegon and or Euron. And possibly participate in the war for the dawn in some capacity. 

In terms of vengeance-Tyrion wants to go after his family-who are already collapsing, and the Lannisters who remain will likely have bent the knee to Aegon by the time Tyrion arrives, or we will have the Cersei/Euron alliance or some combination thereof. Also the Vale-I imagine there will be a reckoning there with the mountain clans and settling accounts with LF and Sansa however those may go. 

Beyond that? Participate in the war against the others(and unlike the show probably fight in some capacity). Probably have reunions with the three Starks whom he had some interaction with-Sansa, Jon, and Bran(as in the show). Beyond that, it’s hard to say. He may go to the wall, be executed, or serve Bran in some capacity. I don’t believe he will die though and think the show outcome is his book outcome(though I know you disagree). 

But that is my general prediction for what Tyrion will be up to in Dream. 

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6 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Arya didn't have the benefit of a tutor yet she regularly wargs into Nymeria over vast distances and teaches herself how to skinchange cats to the point where no one knows what she is doing except for her....that's something which Varamyr has said is very difficult.

The way I see it, she did have tutors, Syrio and the KM. They didn’t lecture her on “skinchanging 101”, but both played important roles in teaching her a number of skills that enabled her to develop her skinchanging gift. 

6 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Bran did what was previously thought impossible by skinchanging into another human. Eventually, he learns to do it with frightening ease.

And Bran had his powers awakened by the 3EC initially, but Jojen also taught him a lot. And skinchanging into humans is not impossible, but rather considered an abomination. 

ADwD, Prologue

Abomination. That had always been Haggon’s favorite word. Abomination, abomination, abomination. To eat of human meat was abomination, to mate as wolf with wolf was abomination, and to seize the body of another man was the worst abomination of all. Haggon was weak, afraid of his own power. He died weeping and alone when I ripped his second life from him. Varamyr had devoured his heart himself. He taught me much and more, and the last thing I learned from him was the taste of human flesh.”

 

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3 minutes ago, Lord Invictus said:

I get the impression you seem set on Tyrion as some sort of arch antagonist. Which he is definitely not.

Martin seems to disagree w/ you. :)

 

Amazon.com: Do you have a favorite character?

Martin: I've got to admit I kind of like Tyrion Lannister. He's the villain of course, but hey, there's nothing like a good villain.

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5 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Martin seems to disagree w/ you. :)

 

Amazon.com: Do you have a favorite character?

Martin: I've got to admit I kind of like Tyrion Lannister. He's the villain of course, but hey, there's nothing like a good villain.

Somehow I knew this quote was going to be brought up, I’m a prophet :)

 

Martin says a lot of things, and how much weight one puts on them is a different matter.

He also said Ramsay had a “difficult childhood” among other half sardonic remarks. Tyrion is a villain from Stannis and the Starks POV and Cersei for that matter. If Martin had said, “he’s the villain of course, from the perspective of Robb Stark” then people would not put as much weight on this statement. Which may have been along the lines of what he meant. And that is what I suspect he meant. You could make a better argument Jaimie is the main villain given his attempted murder started the whole plot. ASOIAF doesn’t really have a main villain as it is, except the Others and perhaps Euron. All other villains are contextual to certain character arcs and plots. If Martin had something like “Tyrion is the arch villain of the series” or “Tyrion is gonna be the final boss” or something that would be far better evidence. Rather than “yeah I like him and you know he’s a villain” with further clarification left unsaid. Which leaves people to argue over what that could mean or perhaps he said it just because people would argue and speculate. 

Tyrion isn’t a villain from the POV of the mountain clans, House Lannister(well before killing Tywin and arguably still not as he is Tywin’s heir and about the only one who might fulfill Tywin’s shoes when the dust settles), or to Brown Ben Plumm. 

Martin’s words and every interview where he goes off saying something witty shouldn’t be taken as ex cathedra declarations on the true nature of the story. Else contradictions start to appear. 

Tyrion is very much portrayed as a heroic figure in Clash(well one with his hang ups but Halfman! isn’t the refrain of a villain), he defended the city albeit from the rightful king but not just for himself but for his niece and nephew and is in no way conceivably villainous in AGOT.  He becomes an anti hero as that goes in ASOS, and a darker anti hero/sliding villain  in ADWD, that is during the absolute nadir of his life. 

How Winds and Dream go remain to be seen, he won’t even meet Daenerys until the end of Winds. So he could conceivably be in a different emotional and mental place perhaps better perhaps worse. But I imagine he will at least have escaped his self destructive nihilistic spiral by then. 

It profits to be remembered Tyrion made a saddle to Bran, and saved Catelyn Stark. If Tyrion were as truly as malevolent as certain characters(and fans) say, then I fail to see why he would have done either of these things.  Tyrion defended Sansa from Joff’s beatings, among other things. As Stannis said, the bad does not wash out the good nor the good the bad. 

Sometimes I think the ASOIAF fandom overemphasizes Tyrion’s admittedly dark deeds in ADWD, and single off hand quotes from GRRM.

I do genuinely believe Tyrion is at heart a good person, who wants to do right, but is surrounded by truly malicious and evil people and must act within the environment he is in. 

Edited by Lord Invictus

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On 11/8/2019 at 4:37 PM, Lord Invictus said:

I get the impression you seem set on Tyrion as some sort of arch antagonist. Which he is definitely not.

He is.

On 11/8/2019 at 9:42 PM, Lord Invictus said:

Somehow I knew this quote was going to be brought up, I’m a prophet :)

 

Martin says a lot of things, and how much weight one puts on them is a different matter.

He also said Ramsay had a “difficult childhood” among other half sardonic remarks. Tyrion is a villain from Stannis and the Starks POV and Cersei for that matter. If Martin had said, “he’s the villain of course, from the perspective of Robb Stark” then people would not put as much weight on this statement. Which may have been along the lines of what he meant. And that is what I suspect he meant. You could make a better argument Jaimie is the main villain given his attempted murder started the whole plot. ASOIAF doesn’t really have a main villain as it is, except the Others and perhaps Euron. All other villains are contextual to certain character arcs and plots. If Martin had something like “Tyrion is the arch villain of the series” or “Tyrion is gonna be the final boss” or something that would be far better evidence. Rather than “yeah I like him and you know he’s a villain” with further clarification left unsaid. Which leaves people to argue over what that could mean or perhaps he said it just because people would argue and speculate. 

Tyrion isn’t a villain from the POV of the mountain clans, House Lannister (well before killing Tywin and arguably still not as he is Tywin’s heir and about the only one who might fulfill Tywin’s shoes when the dust settles), or to Brown Ben Plumm. 

Martin’s words and every interview where he goes off saying something witty shouldn’t be taken as ex cathedra declarations on the true nature of the story. Else contradictions start to appear. 

Tyrion is very much portrayed as a heroic figure in Clash(well one with his hang ups but Halfman! isn’t the refrain of a villain), he defended the city albeit from the rightful king but not just for himself but for his niece and nephew and is in no way conceivably villainous in AGOT.  He becomes an anti hero as that goes in ASOS, and a darker anti hero/sliding villain  in ADWD, that is during the absolute nadir of his life. 

How Winds and Dream go remain to be seen, he won’t even meet Daenerys until the end of Winds. So he could conceivably be in a different emotional and mental place perhaps better perhaps worse. But I imagine he will at least have escaped his self destructive nihilistic spiral by then. 

It profits to be remembered Tyrion made a saddle to Bran, and saved Catelyn Stark. If Tyrion were as truly as malevolent as certain characters(and fans) say, then I fail to see why he would have done either of these things.  Tyrion defended Sansa from Joff’s beatings, among other things. As Stannis said, the bad does not wash out the good nor the good the bad. 

Sometimes I think the ASOIAF fandom overemphasizes Tyrion’s admittedly dark deeds in ADWD, and single off hand quotes from GRRM.

I do genuinely believe Tyrion is at heart a good person, who wants to do right, but is surrounded by truly malicious and evil people and must act within the environment he is in. 

I don't.

Anyone who kills a man to protect secret not-romance (something Tyrion had no business doing to be begin with), feeds said person to starving poor people and acts coy about it is not a good person at heart.

GRRM didn't say that Tyrion is a villain from anyone's perspective. He just said he's the villain and pointed it out as a reminder. Which means...he's the villain. Probably not to the extent that Euron will be, that Lysa was or that Cersei is but yeah....

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2 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

He is.

I don't.

Anyone who kills a man to protect secret not-romance (something Tyrion had no business doing to be begin with), feeds said person to starving poor people and acts coy about it is not a good person at heart.

GRRM didn't say that Tyrion is a villain from anyone's perspective. He just said he's the villain and pointed it out as a reminder. Which means...he's the villain. Probably not to the extent that Euron will be, that Lysa was or that Cersei is but yeah....

:agree:

Just because he is a villain doesn’t mean he is 100% “evul”. He’s a grey character, as most are, but a villain nonetheless.

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On 11/11/2019 at 10:38 AM, Jabar of House Titan said:

He is.

I don't.

Anyone who kills a man to protect secret not-romance (something Tyrion had no business doing to be begin with), feeds said person to starving poor people and acts coy about it is not a good person at heart.

GRRM didn't say that Tyrion is a villain from anyone's perspective. He just said he's the villain and pointed it out as a reminder. Which means...he's the villain. Probably not to the extent that Euron will be, that Lysa was or that Cersei is but yeah....

I seem to recall, the man was blackmailing him and Tyrion had asked him before to go away, and even offered to bribe him IIRC. Maybe having Bronn push him down the stairs would have been less over the top, but there was very little else Tyrion could do that didn't result in his "romance" becoming public knowledge. Same with Jaimie pushing Bran. 

Martin also said Winds would be out in 2015 :). Tyrion's "villainy" such as it is, is more to do with the faction(s) he is associated with-the demon monkey behind Joffrey, or the villainous kingslaying kinslaying dwarf who is coming with the barbarian dragon queen. It's also about perspectives from just about every anti Lannister faction pre ASOS Tyrion is a villain and when he returns with Daenerys he will be seen as a villain by Aegon's regime, Cersei(if she is still alive), and anyone else opposing the dragon queen. 

He will probably betray Daenerys as he did in the show-making him a villain from her perspective as well(probably for blood-to save what remains of his family or possibly in concert with the Starks as we sort of saw in the show to install Jon perhaps?). 

Like Tyrion isn't planning on killing everyone in the line of succession and becoming King no matter what Cersei thinks-if he was then yes he would be the main villain. He isn't conspiring with the Others, to destroy humanity. What Tyrion wants are really two simple things-vengeance against his sister and his inheritance. The former is bad, but understandable given you know how Cersei has treated him, and the latter is his right. 

Also all the above are going to be in Dream-where Tyrion is at the end of Winds at an emotional and psychological level is most definitely not where he will be at the beginning. 

I would also counter by saying an evil man would not save the woman who wrongfully kidnapped him, he wanted to let her die-but his conscience overcame that instinct, an evil man would not give a saddle to a boy whom he suspects his siblings tried to murder. Neither act being things he got any benefit or gain out of-Cat didn't change her evaluation of his character, and Robb was well rather rude in spite of his compassion and generosity. 

At most Tyrion is a morally grey(darker shade that is) anti hero. 

 

But I suppose, we shall have to agree to disagree on this one. I do believe Tyrion will be "redeemed" at some point, and his fate won't be rewards of roses and gold. He very well may die soon after the series ends like Tyland Lannister another disfigured unpopular Lannister of the Dance. 

Edited by Lord Invictus

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