Will Jon and Sansa be the fulfillment of the coming together of Ice and Fire?

[Rose of Red Lake]

2 hours ago, SuperMario said:

Yes, those brilliant producers and their creative decision-making.

You think they were discussing whether to have 2 or 3 prostitutes banging Bronn? And to have Bronn get scared or just merely concerned at hearing one of them has the pox. 

How about how many testicle or sans testicle jokes are too many?

Yep. Benioff and Weiss are the next Kubricks with their attention to detail.

Expressions and body language matter in Jon and Sansa scenes and people are picking up on something there. If you can't be bothered to examine these things then please head on over to the rant and rave forum, that's where the writing critiques go. This is a watsonian thread and we will examine how the characters interact in-universe. We will also examine book foreshadowing. Nothing you've said has brought forth any counter-examples to those points, just mockery of how dumb D&D are. D&D wouldn't have come up with the idea to write Jonsa in the subtext. That's all GRRM. He has praised the film Dragonslayer because it contained a misdirected romance for the hero with a surprise romantic pairing at the end.

[Cas Stark]

Sansa is condescending to, and undermining of, Jon in the episode.  The same as she was last year.  Publicly questioning him, eye rolling and other forms of disrespect isn't much to base a romance on, because, this isn't a romcom, where the two people first hate each other and then fall in love.

[Rose of Red Lake]

2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Sansa is condescending to, and undermining of, Jon in the episode.  The same as she was last year.  Publicly questioning him, eye rolling and other forms of disrespect isn't much to base a romance on, because, this isn't a romcom, where the two people first hate each other and then fall in love.

This is a trope though.  Angst and unresolved sexual tension.

GRRM himself says these tropes are how romantic feelings are written on the show:

"...with the Shae in the TV series, you can tell she actually has real feelings for Tyrion — she challenges him, she defies him." - GRRM, 2014

[Cas Stark]

Just now, Rose of Red Lake said:

This is a trope though.  Angst and unresolved sexual tension.

GRRM himself says these tropes are how romantic feelings are written on the show:

"...with the Shae in the TV series, you can tell she actually has real feelings for Tyrion — she challenges him, she defies him." - GRRM, 2014

There isn't any unresolved sexual tension between the two of them, that is your imagination, IMO.  Sometimes, people vying for power and disagreeing is just that, and nothing more, it's not a secret romantic trope that only a tiny few see and understand.

 

[Rose of Red Lake]

8 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

There isn't any unresolved sexual tension between the two of them, that is your imagination, IMO.  Sometimes, people vying for power and disagreeing is just that, and nothing more, it's not a secret romantic trope that only a tiny few see and understand.

 

"A tiny few" - nope. Venture beyond this forum. There are hundreds. Even romance writers see something.

On the one hand people are saying the show isn't that deep. 

So as a result, they don't even analyze the show.

It's not exactly leading to credibility in your interpretations if you can't be bothered to interpret anything.

[Cas Stark]

5 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

"A tiny few" - nope. Venture beyond this forum. There are hundreds. Even romance writers see something.

On the one hand people are saying the show isn't that deep. 

So as a result, they don't even analyze the show.

It's not exactly leading to credibility in your interpretations if you can't be bothered to interpret anything.

The show isn't that deep, the show's idea of foreshadowing is to have characters say what they're going to do, and then go do it. Mel said Stannis would betray everyone, and then he did.  Brienne said she would kill Stannis, and then she did. Mel said she and Varys would die, and they will .  The show lost all of its layers of complexity once they outpaced the books and they are now just moving around people to check the major plot boxes.  

Jon and Sansa are not going to get married, whatever 'tension' you see is tension due to the show's decision to cast Sansa as the smart, good ruler and juxtapose her with the dumb but honorable Jon Snow.  That's it.  What they are setting up is Jon Snow dying a heroic death because he's too stupid and pure to rule anyone, and Sansa ending as Lady of Winterfell, the smartest person in the world, rebuilding the North. There isn't any romance or any romantic subtext, people getting snowed on is not a clue, family members kissing each other on the forehead is not a clue. 

[SuperMario]

6 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

"A tiny few" - nope. Venture beyond this forum. There are hundreds. Even romance writers see something.

On the one hand people are saying the show isn't that deep. 

So as a result, they don't even analyze the show.

It's not exactly leading to credibility in your interpretations if you can't be bothered to interpret anything.

So outside fan fiction romance writers are the arbiters of this?

Yes, I am saying the show isn't that deep and I do analyze the show. There is plenty to analyze.

But honestly, some people are so blinded by what they want to happen that any little thing that happens just reinforces their beliefs regardless of its actual meaning.

- Jon kisses Sansa's forehead = Jon loves her.

- Jon kisses Bran's forehead = Platonic brotherly relationship

- Jon smiles at Sansa = He secretly loves her.

- Sansa fights with Jon = Unresolved sexual tension.

It's insanity. You can name any show out there with two characters with no chance for sexual or end-game relations, and someone out there can spin it to their own desires.

[Rose of Red Lake]

Just now, Cas Stark said:

What they are setting up is Jon Snow dying a heroic death because he's too stupid and pure to rule anyone, and Sansa ending as Lady of Winterfell, the smartest person in the world, rebuilding the North. There isn't any romance or any romantic subtext, people getting snowed on is not a clue, family members kissing each other on the forehead is not a clue. 

I disagree with your takes on Jon. His entire parentage reveal and contrast in leadership (removing titles) is pointless if he dies. The "pack survives" is happening.

Stupid husband listening to smart wife is also a trope. The arguing serves a purpose, it's how they write romance. Jon and Sansa argue more like Ygritte and Jon, Ned and Cat. I can also see arguments that it's like Cat and Robb but I don't think GRRM intends for Jon to be another Robb.

My own husband who doesn't have a romantic bone in his body thought Jon and Sansa were going to get it on after that forehead kiss - it was SO unsibling-like. As I've illustrated the show runners take pains to make sure these micro-expressions matter so it harder to explain away as accidental. Of course they have Jon opening his eyes in the Jon/Dany kiss - again illustrating something is "off."

More evidence can be seen in film/blocking in the Jon/Sansa/Dany table scenes in S8E1. People who don't even care about Jon/Sansa are noting that it is like a love triangle trope. Even Jon and Sansa's costumes mirror each other and reflect loyalties and desires as Michelle Clapton has said. This could be his loyalty to House Stark, but I think there is enough evidence to open up the question of a political marriage at least. 

 

[Rose of Red Lake]

12 minutes ago, SuperMario said:

So outside fan fiction romance writers are the arbiters of this?

Yes, I am saying the show isn't that deep and I do analyze the show. There is plenty to analyze.

But honestly, some people are so blinded by what they want to happen that any little thing that happens just reinforces their beliefs regardless of its actual meaning.

- Jon kisses Sansa's forehead = Jon loves her.

- Jon kisses Bran's forehead = Platonic brotherly relationship

- Jon smiles at Sansa = He secretly loves her.

- Sansa fights with Jon = Unresolved sexual tension.

It's insanity. You can name any show out there with two characters with no chance for sexual or end-game relations, and someone out there can spin it to their own desires.

I had no idea about Jon and Sansa together - I didnt even like Sansa that much, until Season 6. I didnt want this. I just saw subtext in Season 6. Doubted it, then re-read Jon and Sansa's chapters and found some subtext there too. Could be wrong. I'm happy with no relationship. I'm more invested in Jon's character on the whole. 

[Angel Eyes]

Found this article on USA Today.

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2019/04/game-of-thrones-jon-sansa

[Ser Gareth]

4 hours ago, SuperMario said:

Yes, those brilliant producers and their creative decision-making.

You think they were discussing whether to have 2 or 3 prostitutes banging Bronn? And to have Bronn get scared or just merely concerned at hearing one of them has the pox. 

How about how many testicle or sans testicle jokes are too many?

Yep. Benioff and Weiss are the next Kubricks with their attention to detail.

Can we save this kind of comment for the Rant and Rave thread please.  Thanks.

P.S. the Bronn scene was an intentional nod towards the sexplanation of the early episodes.

[StoneColdJorahMormont]

Jon himself is the coming together of Ice and Fire... the moment he realised he was half stark/half targ was the coming together moment and the moment he realized his true worth and I imagine confidence/belief he was born for something other than to be a bastard.

 

Or it could just be the White walkers(ice) vs Man with fire ( as a weapon)

[SansaJonRule]

On 4/15/2019 at 4:12 AM, Rose of Red Lake said:

He's not in love. She definitely is. 

He is just going along, and placating. Even his knee bend was fake. His rejoinder to her romantic dialogue: "we would be too old." Meaning he doesnt even want to engage with her flirting. SHE has to tell him to warm her up. 

I think he removed his titles to make her happy before that truce, which really illustrates why bending the knee was necessary. Happy - ah there's the rub. It's so easy for viewers to confuse love when someone is that desperate for an army. 

"Perhaps he stares at you longingly because he's hopeful for a successful military alliance"

I don't think there's any doubt he's attracted to her. Remember Davos commented on Jon staring at her "good heart"? He's just not in love. You don't have to be in love to flirt though. I don't know if he was refusing to flirt or he just had bigger things weighing on his mind, not to mention he'd just been shaken up by his first dragon ride. I coudn't help wondering if he was thinking of Ygritte saying they should have stayed in that cave forever when Dany made that comment about staying there for a thousand years. Anyway, I think you are probably correct in what they were trying to convey.

What makes you think Jon relinquished his title of King before Dany offered her assistance in fighting the NK? On screen she made the offer first, and then Jon called her "My Queen". The way I interpreted that scene was that what Dany had seen beyond the wall made enough of an impression on her that she realized she couldn't risk the fate of the world by insisting Jon bend the knee first. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

55 minutes ago, SansaJonRule said:

What makes you think Jon relinquished his title of King before Dany offered her assistance in fighting the NK? On screen she made the offer first, and then Jon called her "My Queen". The way I interpreted that scene was that what Dany had seen beyond the wall made enough of an impression on her that she realized she couldn't risk the fate of the world by insisting Jon bend the knee first. 

Yes, the show is really putting focus on why Jon bent the knee. This is good. We need more explanations than just "he's infatuated with the dragon pussy." I've tried to think of more "grown-up" reasons:

- He doesn't trust her promises ("A Targaryen cannot be trusted"). They are going to a truce meeting and he cant control the outcome with Cersei. Dany could back out if things dont go her way. Its better to remind her that he gave her what she wanted, and that she now owes him a debt. He could call it in later if the truce goes south.

- He is afraid of her. This seems more likely to me, after E1 and John Bradley's interview on Sam's fear of Dany. Jon looked scared when Sam mentioned treason. Then the ominous "eyes open" shot with Drogon huffing at him. 

- He gives her what she always wanted from the first. He reads that she still wants it. She expect it, her ego needs it, and he makes the interaction transactional. It's not necessarily his gratitude to her, its that she wants gratitude from him. And he can see it.

- He removes all pretense of his pride, taking Tormund's words to heart about Mance, "How many people had to die because of his pride?" I think Tormund might mean how Mance couldn't just negotiate and kneel to stop the NW and Stannis from slaughtering the wildlings. The wildlings had to suffer through a bloody, unnecessary war when Mance could have solved it earlier by kneeling to the NW and asking for help. Jon does not want unnecessary bloodshed on his hands, all because he couldn't kneel. This is the most likely option for me, because he says "She wants me to bend the knee" in this conversation with Tormund. So even though Dany says she will fight the Night King, Jon thinks she still wants this from him, even this late in the season. 

What helped me was Sam saying in E1: "you bent the knee to save your people" which is exactly what Jon urged Mance to do. Same wording and all. I think Sam speaks the truth. So it can't be for love and it has to have some element of fear/sacrifice (Torrhen again) and a preventative measure.

[SansaJonRule]

On 4/15/2019 at 2:47 PM, SuperMario said:

- Jon kisses Sansa's forehead = Jon loves her.

When did he kiss her on the forehead?  If it was this episode, it sure didn't make an impression on me.

On 4/15/2019 at 2:57 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

I disagree with your takes on Jon. His entire parentage reveal and contrast in leadership (removing titles) is pointless if he dies. The "pack survives" is happening.

The revelation of his parentage could be simply for the conflict it will create with Daenyrs and what that will reveal about her character, as Sam astutely pointed out, "You gave up your crown to save your people. Will she do the same?"

Not that I want Jon to die, I don't. And I don't think he's stupid.

I believe Jon is the Prince who was Promised. If that is true, couldn't there be clues to his fate in the prophecy?

On 4/15/2019 at 3:02 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

I just saw subtext in Season 6. Doubted it, then re-read Jon and Sansa's chapters and found some subtext there too.

I could swear I read a couple of years ago that GRRM said that also he is consulting with D&D in writing the show, it is not entirely following his plan for the books, and also that Rhaegar and Lyanna being Jon's parents is a show thing, not in the books. Has anyone else heard that, or am I totally confused. It's been a long time, and as far as the books go, it's been so long I may as well not have read them for what I remember. (Not gonna waste my time reading them again unless he finishes the series.)

[SansaJonRule]

On 4/15/2019 at 10:30 AM, lakin1013 said:

I have no particular feelings about Jon and Sansa but in addition to what Lady Ren noted:

1.  Jon asks Sansa - Have you no faith in me?  That is a very vulnerable question and the act of him asking her this tells us that he cares for her opinion, will bare his soul to her, and will wait for her response.

2. Sansa to Jon:  She said something like - Of course I do, with a softened voice. This tells us she can respond to vulnerable Jon, and she will reassure him.  

3. Sansa remarks that Dany is prettier than Ned.  This is a silly comment. Why did she make it, to Jon of all people?  Curious that a totally disinterested half-sister would say this about the appearance of Jon's GF.

4.  Jon cannot or does not answer Sansa's question about whether he did it for love or hope for his people. 

I comment here because I watched the scene carefully, due to all the posts about Sansa and Jon.  There is something here, either it is completely ambiguous, or something else.  I am not sure about Sansa but I do not think the Jon/Dany thing has legs.

All of the above are things a brother and sister could say to each other. They didn't get along as children, but they've been through a lot together. That scene could be highlighting that change. (He even mentions to Dany that Sansa hated them when they were children.) Close siblings care very much about each other's feelings and opinions. And they comment on B/F and G/F.

I've said elsewhere that I don't think Jon is in love with Dany, just infatuated.

Jon lowered his

[SansaJonRule]

34 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

- He is afraid of her. This seems more likely to me, after E1 and John Bradley's interview on Sam's fear of Dany. Jon looked scared when Sam mentioned treason. Then the ominous "eyes open" shot with Drogon huffing at him. 

He didn't look scared when he was talking to Sam. I watched that scene again just now thinking I missed it. I think he looked distressed.

And who wouldn't have an eye open with a dragon staring at them? 

40 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

- He removes all pretense of his pride, taking Tormund's words to heart about Mance, "How many people had to die because of his pride?" I think Tormund might mean how Mance couldn't just negotiate and kneel to stop the NW and Stannis from slaughtering the wildlings. The wildlings had to suffer through a bloody, unnecessary war when Mance could have solved it earlier by kneeling to the NW and asking for help. Jon does not want unnecessary bloodshed on his hands, all because he couldn't kneel. This is the most likely option for me, because he says "She wants me to bend the knee" in this conversation with Tormund. So even though Dany says she will fight the Night King, Jon thinks she still wants this from him, even this late in the season. 

Agreed he doesn't want unnecessary bloodshed, esp on his hands, and a crown he never wanted certainly isn't worth it.

42 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

What helped me was Sam saying in E1: "you bent the knee to save your people" which is exactly what Jon urged Mance to do. Same wording and all. I think Sam speaks the truth. So it can't be for love and it has to have some element of fear/sacrifice (Torrhen again) and a preventative measure.

Well that's what Jon's been telling everyone, so why shouldn't Sam believe it? But doing it as a preventative measure, opposed to because of his infatuation and/or respect for her, is an argument that definitely has merit. Remember I never said I thought he bent the knee because he loved her, only that he did not NEED to to secure Dany's alliance.

46 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Yes, the show is really putting focus on why Jon bent the knee. This is good.

Agreed. As is so often the case in this show, there may be more than meets the eye. It may not be as deep as the books, but you definitely can't take everything at face value.

[Rose of Red Lake]

32 minutes ago, SansaJonRule said:

I've said elsewhere that I don't think Jon is in love with Dany, just infatuated.

 

I think both are just as bad for his character, because I dont see a difference because it characterizes him the same way. Either way he'd be acting like Robb. He'd be acting like Jorah and Daario too. There needs to be a contrast between Jon and those guys. 

[Lady of Mercia]

I think Jon bent the knee because of guilt, and it felt like the right thing to do in the moment. He was the reason Dany flew her dragons north of the Wall, and the fact that she doesn't blame Jon, and promises to join him in the fight against the NK despite losing Viserion, makes him feel guilty and grateful.

I can't wait to see both Dany's and Sansa's reactions to the news of his true parentage.

[lakin1013]

9 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I think both are just as bad for his character, because I dont see a difference because it characterizes him the same way. Either way he'd be acting like Robb. He'd be acting like Jorah and Daario too. There needs to be a contrast between Jon and those guys. 

It is like a mirror image of Robb and it makes me think the show will give us a pragmatic Jon in opposition to romantic Robb.  In the show, Robb fell, deep, in love with Talisa.  Many posters here are doubtful about Jon's real feelings.  While we can be sure he likes having intimate access to a pretty girl, we have also been shown Jon since a boy and he tends to what is right.  I expect we will see a combination of Ruling, Smirking Dany and Jon searching out his own role before he will arrive at a decision.  

The show went to great lengths to show us an unattractive side to Dany - her sitting proud on her horse, the smirk when the dragon flew by, the 'they eat whatever they want' comment, Dany expecting a wonderful compliment from Sansa and not getting one , and reminding us what she did to the Tarleys - kind of a needy yet mean queen.