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Euron III Greyjoy

Who will know about Jon Snow at the end?

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I have a feeling it will be extensively known, if not believed. 

I think Jon Connington will be faced with it and jump to the, wrong, conclusion that Rhaeger named Jon after him. 

I can also see another ironic conversation about his heritage, this time with Aegon Mopartis, about Jon not really looking like Aegon.

 

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Really irrelevant in terms of politics, he is never gonna sit on the Iron Throne at least not due to his parentage. Assuming R+L=J is true, there is still no way he is legitimate. Secret annulment and marriage are not a thing. Well if you have a secret marriage it is just between two people and supposedly some god, but not marriage valid within the society. 

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I am convinced he is legitimate. The three kingsguard were guarding the king. 

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2 minutes ago, Makk said:

I am convinced he is legitimate. The three kingsguard were guarding the king. 

Good for you, sadly no one in Westeros will be. 

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1 hour ago, Tygett Lannister said:

Really irrelevant in terms of politics, he is never gonna sit on the Iron Throne at least not due to his parentage. Assuming R+L=J is true, there is still no way he is legitimate. Secret annulment and marriage are not a thing. Well if you have a secret marriage it is just between two people and supposedly some god, but not marriage valid within the society. 

I didn't say anything about sitting the throne or him being legitimate. I was just curious on who everyone thought would know about his parentage by the end of the books. 

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1 hour ago, Makk said:

I can also see another ironic conversation about his heritage, this time with Aegon Mopartis, about Jon not really looking like Aegon.

Rhaenys and Aegon didn't look alike either.

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2 hours ago, Tygett Lannister said:

Really irrelevant in terms of politics, he is never gonna sit on the Iron Throne at least not due to his parentage. Assuming R+L=J is true, there is still no way he is legitimate. Secret annulment and marriage are not a thing. Well if you have a secret marriage it is just between two people and supposedly some god, but not marriage valid within the society. 

There might not have been an annulment. Bigamy was a thing for Targaryens in the past. 

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6 hours ago, Makk said:

I am convinced he is legitimate. The three kingsguard were guarding the king. 

They may have guarded who they regarded to be the king. Jon's potential legitimacy rests on a long dead prince who had overstepped his bounds to begin with. It is at best shaky.

People would first have to believe his paternity, then would have to accept his legitimacy and then consider it relevant. Add these things together and there will not be many people left. There could be a few important ones, though.

In short, I don't see his paternity having any considerable political significance in and of itself. Its impact would rather personal. 

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6 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

There might not have been an annulment. Bigamy was a thing for Targaryens in the past. 

260 years ago yes. Faith of the Seven never approved any bigamy. Aegon I was not married under the Faith of the Seven but under his previous religion. Just 35 years later his younger son Maegor married a second wife in Valyrian ceremony since no septon would do it. Maegor was exiled for that and only returned once he became king. 

Only reason any Targaryen got away with multiple wives was dragons. 

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 So you guys reckon GRRM dedicated so much of the story around Jon's parentage only for it to be irrelevant in the end? No way it's gonna be met with indifference in Westeros after Ned Stark risked his marriage and his reputation to protect that information. Unless you guys are just being sarcastic.

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

I think the more relevant question is who will care? 

The North will care. It's safe to assume that Jon will be crowned King in the North in TWOW and if the Northerners come to find out that their king has Targaryen blood they will not like it one bit. That is the bittersweetness of the possible R+L=J revelation. All Jon ever wanted was to be a trueborn Stark and gets to be one, but at the same time, by Westerosi Patriachial standpoint, he isn't one and because of that he will be condemned by the place he considers home. In this scenario, 'The North Remembers' is a negative thing.

Edited by Queen Sansa Stark

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55 minutes ago, Queen Sansa Stark said:

The North will care. It's safe to assume that Jon will be crowned King in the North in TWOW and if the Northerners come to find out that their king has Targaryen blood they will not like it one bit. That is the bittersweetness of the possible R+L=J revelation. All Jon ever wanted was to be a trueborn Stark and gets to be one, but at the same time, by Westerosi Patriachial standpoint, he isn't one and because of that he will be condemned by the place he considers home. In this scenario, 'The North Remembers' is a negative thing.

That is a pretty big assumption, one I am not willing to make. Still, it is a possibility that some Northmen will declare for him. Regardless, I believe my point still stands. Jon's parentage has personal implications and it will also have implications on the supernatural aspect of the story. Due to its nature and controversy it ranks way back behind many more immediate and important considerations as far as politics are concerned. 

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6 hours ago, LyaTarg said:

 So you guys reckon GRRM dedicated so much of the story around Jon's parentage only for it to be irrelevant in the end? No way it's gonna be met with indifference in Westeros after Ned Stark risked his marriage and his reputation to protect that information. Unless you guys are just being sarcastic.

R + L = J is still relevant for the fight against the white walkers and dragon riding ect.

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Posted (edited)

It's too easy that R + L = J is only relevant to the magical aspect of the story. Where is the human conflict in all of this? Realistically speaking it should be a bombshell. Danaerys will be enraged, especially if Jon is her 'treason for love', and I believe he's. The second Dance of Dragons will take place because of that. Jon, the poor boy, will have a huge internal conflict. He will not like it at all that he's a Targaryen. How will he feel about the fact that his grandfather killed his other grandfather (and uncle) on a lie? What would his thoughts be on the fact that because of his parents' union a civil war took place and thousands upon thousands died? Perhaps he will think it would have been better if he wasn't born at all. I certainly would think that.

Edited by Queen Sansa Stark

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13 hours ago, Tygett Lannister said:

260 years ago yes. Faith of the Seven never approved any bigamy. Aegon I was not married under the Faith of the Seven but under his previous religion. Just 35 years later his younger son Maegor married a second wife in Valyrian ceremony since no septon would do it. Maegor was exiled for that and only returned once he became king. 

Only reason any Targaryen got away with multiple wives was dragons. 

So, if Jon rides a dragon...

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1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

So, if Jon rides a dragon...

If Samwell Tarly rides a dragon he can claim the Iron Throne. Has nothing to do with succession and legitimacy, just like Aegons conquest didn't. It is just brute power of dragons. What is your point here? 

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5 hours ago, Queen Sansa Stark said:

It's too easy that R + L = J is only relevant to the magical aspect of the story. Where is the human conflict in all of this? Realistically speaking it should be a bombshell. Danaerys will be enraged, especially if Jon is her 'treason for love', and I believe he's. The second Dance of Dragons will take place because of that. Jon, the poor boy, will have a huge internal conflict. He will not like it at all that he's a Targaryen. How will he feel about the fact that his grandfather killed his other grandfather (and uncle) on a lie? What would his thoughts be on the fact that because of his parents' union a civil war took place and thousands upon thousands died? Perhaps he will think it would have been better if he wasn't born at all. I certainly would think that.

No it is not a bombshell for politics of Westeros, it is just a spicy interesting piece of news. Let see why:

1. He is probably dead, rarely people survive a massive stabbing. He can potentially be revived of course. 

2. He is Lord Commander of the Nights Watch, which means he can't hold land or marry. You can make a claim that after he is revived he is no longer considered the same person so he is free of his vows. But if you claim that he is no longer son of Rhaegar and has no claim to the throne at all. 

3. He is a bastard. So being a bastard his claim is already weak, but yeah if there is no other successor bastard will do. 

4. Remember Aegon VI? Yeah that guy firstborn son of Rhaegar Targaryen, think he's apparently also alive and I think he might be a bit higher in succession line than a 2nd born bastard. 

5. Have fun convincing few 100k nobles about this story. 

6. Why does Targaryen succession line have advantage over Roberts again? Because they were tyrant foreigners that invaded without any claims and were into close relative incest and their last King was insane like every 2nd one before him? Stannis and Shireen are still miles higher in succession line than Jon. 

Second Dance of Dragons would be unlikely, Jon would have no desire to be a King. I agree however that he would be confused about all this. 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Tygett Lannister said:

If Samwell Tarly rides a dragon he can claim the Iron Throne. Has nothing to do with succession and legitimacy, just like Aegons conquest didn't. It is just brute power of dragons. What is your point here? 

Doesn't one need Targaryen blood to ride a dragon? 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Doesn't one need Targaryen blood to ride a dragon? 

Quote

During the civil war known as the Dance of the Dragons, Prince Jacaerys Velaryon called upon Targaryen bastards and their descendants, the so-called dragonseeds, to try and mount a dragon. Regardless, men without Valyrian descent made their attempt as well.[6] Nor is the possession of Valyrian blood (no matter how directly) a guarantee that bonding with a dragon will be successful.[18][8]

If you go to Dragonriders you can find multiple non-Valyrian dragonriders. You can say oh they could have some Valyrian blood or you can realise the obvious that only Targaryens had the access to dragons for the most part. 

 

Edited by Tygett Lannister

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On 5/1/2019 at 11:13 AM, LyaTarg said:

 So you guys reckon GRRM dedicated so much of the story around Jon's parentage only for it to be irrelevant in the end? No way it's gonna be met with indifference in Westeros after Ned Stark risked his marriage and his reputation to protect that information. Unless you guys are just being sarcastic.

Your comment made me to re-evaluate my position.

On one hand, the story of Jon's parentage is very important for Jon's character development and has also obvious ramifications to particular parts of the plot, like Dany and her claim, Jon's eventual claim to Winterfell, etc. None of this would need that Jon's parentage to be widely known in Westeros. It is a somewhat more intimate affair, although very important for the story course.

On the other hand, you are right. Given the investment on Jon's parentage, with the Aegon VI claiming the IT, Dany showing up, the news of another "claimant" might be of importance in Westeros as a whole. Specially if Jon's name starts to become known all around.

However, I don't think it will happen. Think about it. When news about Jon's parentage start to spread, winter should be in full swing, people should start to starve in Westeros, Euron should be wreaking havoc in the South, maybe an epidemic of greyscale will spread in the Stormlands and beyond (thanks JonCon!), Dany should have landed in Westeros with a massive army and dragons to topple Aegon. Etc.  Meaning that people in Westeros should not have really the mind and time to care about what Rhaegar did with Lyanna.

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