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Great battle plan! Dubious tactics discussion.

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8 hours ago, Dragon Glass said:

<snip>

The biggest problem with the last few seasons are that the show had budget and time constants that forced them to compress a lot of story into a shorter period of time. This change in pace resulted in less attention to detail that was there in the first few seasons. We, as viewers, don't factor the logistics behind creating a show of this magnitude into how we see the story. We just over analyse and look for fault. These days, anyone with a keyboard is a critic.

 

You mean budget "constants" like having a lot more money? Wow, what a problem to deal with.

No, the problem is simple: they ran past the novels. A meticulous, master plotter was replaced with a pair of bozos that can't plot their way out of a wet paper bag. The story didn't become bigger, it shrank to a dash from one huge set-point battle scene to the next.

I'll give D&D their due for being able to put great scenes together, with all the various skill sets that requires. They're a very talented team and this show would've been all-time great if the books had just kept out ahead of it. But plot? They clearly can't do it. Almost none of the major story beats from the last three seasons make sense, and by and large the characters became cardboard cutouts of Hollywood stereotypes.

Sorry for the rant which is at bet somewhat oblique to the topic, but IMO it's hard to talk about this show these days without discussing the story-creation skills, or lack thereof, of the creators.

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5 hours ago, no_one_... said:

Through first 4 seasons and a few episodes since, the show was not about  "look cool to the viewer" .  Bad writing has been inexcusable precisely b/c it focuses on "looking cool" at the expense of all else.  They chickened out and went for the the low hanging fruit.

I think you over estimate the average Game of Throne viewers knowledge and passion for the details when it comes to a story as complex as this. Most of the people I talk to watch the show for simple sex, violence, and the special effects. Apparently, that's who the producers are targeting. People like us who take the time to discuss and argue every aspect of each episode are the minority. 

I still love the show and can't wait to see the next three episodes and I expect to see a lot more "low hanging fruit" but I won't lose any sleep over it.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, darmody said:

It had walls

How long did it take for the undead to climb over the walls? Granted they should have been manned. That was just silly that they weren't.  

But in a normal siege the enemy doesn't have world war z capabilities. 

I don't know why they didn't have more fire/oil/flame available to hurl on the climbing undead though. It might have bought some more time. 

But overall, the Dothroki, the unsullied, the walls, the ditch the dragons; none of it really slowed them much. It's a good thing our heroes were able to fight them off for so long... 

In the end what mattered was plot armor and Deus ex Arya or is it Arya ex machina? (in an almost textbook example of the term). They saved the day!! Hooray!!!

Edited by #teamNightking
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23 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

You mean budget "constants" like having a lot more money? Wow, what a problem to deal with.

No, the problem is simple: they ran past the novels. A meticulous, master plotter was replaced with a pair of bozos that can't plot their way out of a wet paper bag. The story didn't become bigger, it shrank to a dash from one huge set-point battle scene to the next.

I'll give D&D their due for being able to put great scenes together, with all the various skill sets that requires. They're a very talented team and this show would've been all-time great if the books had just kept out ahead of it. But plot? They clearly can't do it. Almost none of the major story beats from the last three seasons make sense, and by and large the characters became cardboard cutouts of Hollywood stereotypes.

Sorry for the rant which is at bet somewhat oblique to the topic, but IMO it's hard to talk about this show these days without discussing the story-creation skills, or lack thereof, of the creators.

Just because the show makes more money, doesn't mean they have an endless budget. The cost for an episode in the first four seasons was between $6-8 million. Each episode this season is $15 million. But the cost of cast, number of locations, and amount of special effects has gone up drastically. This is why the writers actually make fun of the fact that they couldn't have elephants for the Golden Company in the the show!

I guarantee they sat down and had all kinds of great ideas and had to ax a lot of it due to cost. 

As for the writing falling apart after the first four seasons, well the books get a little messy as the story expands too. I think over all they have done a great jog of taking an extremely complex story and bringing it to life on television. 

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Dragon Glass said:

Just because the show makes more money, doesn't mean they have an endless budget. The cost for an episode in the first four seasons was between $6-8 million. Each episode this season is $15 million.

Personally I think the biggest issue is bad writing. And much of it could have been better without too much effort. It's almost like they're in a hurry to finish so they can move on to other things. It's almost like they don't really care as much as they used to. 

GRRM has his flaws. Far from perfect. But the recent show writing is shockingly bad comparatively. 

It's gotten worse, and worse as time has passed and distance has grown away from the source material. 

And I'd rather have them not finish the tv show than put out a crappy product whatever the excuse. 

It's lost that special something that made it exceptional. 

In my opinion. 

Edited by #teamNightking
Sp.

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51 minutes ago, #teamNightking said:

But there was no order to charge shown. Wouldn't Jorah have been in the front instead of being passed? 

And the thought is not that they weren't supposed to charge at all, just not yet. 

Honestly I don't care. It doesn't matter. It's just that this was the least of the episodes issues to me. 

I mean I have more of an issue of how they only lasted a matter of seconds when later our heroes and even the unsullied last waaaaay longer.

I could guess that possibly the WW or NK somehow extinguished their flaming weapons but that wasn't shown. So as far as I'm concerned it didn't happen. 

They should have survived longer and more should have been able to retreat than was shown. 

The total annihilation was a bit over the top and in my opinion was clearly meant as an OMG moment and to insure Dany lost her army making fighting Cersei later more challenging. 

They don't show Jorah signaling the start of the attack, since we are focusing on the confrontation between Davos and Mel and Mel watching Arya. But there's a lot of time between her setting the arakh's alight and the moment the Dothraki commence their charge. On top of that, they show us Jorah, taking out his sword in readiness to signal the start of the charge with his sword, and he is still lined up in the commander position. There is nothing impulsive about it, and it is set up for the viewer that the first thing we should expect to see is the Dothraki charging towards the wight army.

Neither Jon or Dany panick either when the Dothraki charge. They watch it with great expectation as if that was always the plan. Only after all the lights went out does Dany decide to get on Drogon to burn the wight army.

So, I see no sign whatsoever as impulsivity from the Dothraki and nobody reacts as if they did something that was not the plan. Conclusion: the charge was the plan.

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37 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

So, I see no sign whatsoever as impulsivity from the Dothraki and nobody reacts as if they did something that was not the plan. Conclusion: the charge was the plan.

I know one thing for certain. It's not worth the effort to debate something so meaningless and for which I don't really care about what the outcome is and concerning an episode I did not like. 

But 

Jorah drew his sword. Anything more than that is an assumption. Maybe he drew it before he was going to wait a while more. 

Jon and Dany didn't say anything. But not much was said by anyone during this episode but for a fact the plan was changed due to the Dothroki charge.

 Did the Dothroki charge early? I say maybe. Which is what I said before. Don't know, don't care, doesn't matter. 

What's more important is overall the writing was crap and like 16 times people were saved "just in time".  Hack writing. 

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7 hours ago, no_one_... said:

Through first 4 seasons and a few episodes since, the show was not about  "look cool to the viewer" .  Bad writing has been inexcusable precisely b/c it focuses on "looking cool" at the expense of all else.  They chickened out and went for the the low hanging fruit.

Well... the 1st 4 seasons had the books as source material.  And George writing an episode a season.   :)

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4 hours ago, Nightwish said:

Still remains a mystery how all this mass of zombies crashed on the unsullied who managed to hold them back whereas Dothraki with all the horse speed disappeared within seconds. Crazy script...

Disciplined infantry in formation vs. cavalry w/o a formation.  All the horse speed did was get the riders deeper into the dead, more isolated, and deeper into trouble.  And the Dothraki encountered giants.  We didn't see any reach the unsullied.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, #teamNightking said:

Personally I think the biggest issue is bad writing. And much of it could have been better without too much effort. It's almost like they're in a hurry to finish so they can move on to other things. It's almost like they don't really care as much as they used to.

True. Take the Wight Hunt (please). Fix two things, and it wouldn't have been so gloriously stupid. 

First, have Danny and the dragons at Eastwatch instead of a continent away. 

Second, and this is the fulcrum of stupidity in the episode, don't have Jon send Gendry back to the Wall and then run towards...nothing, really. Where were they going? They didn't know there was a frozen lake with an island nearby.

Instead, have Jon & Co. be cut off from Gendry and surrounded, then stumble upon the lake. Or have them pass the lake earlier, and when they spot the Army of the Dead, have one of them say "Let's try for the lake!"

 in this episode, I think it would've been better to have most of the characters in the castle, and have the Night King hang back and send his White Walker lieutenants in to fetch Bran. Then the characters with Valyrian steel have to kill them, and as they die the zombies they control fall chunk by chunk. Eventually the Night King has to go in himself and is surprised by Ninja Turtle Arya. 

Edited by darmody

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

They don't show Jorah signaling the start of the attack, since we are focusing on the confrontation between Davos and Mel and Mel watching Arya. But there's a lot of time between her setting the arakh's alight and the moment the Dothraki commence their charge. On top of that, they show us Jorah, taking out his sword in readiness to signal the start of the charge with his sword, and he is still lined up in the commander position. There is nothing impulsive about it, and it is set up for the viewer that the first thing we should expect to see is the Dothraki charging towards the wight army.

I took that as Jorah yielding to fait accompli.  The Dothraki were going to charge, regardless.  That's what they do.

The Dothraki aren't a disciplined modern cavalry force; they are a medieval cavalry force.  If they decide to charge, they charge. Regardless of what some commander wants (or orders).

 

Quote

Neither Jon or Dany panick either when the Dothraki charge. They watch it with great expectation as if that was always the plan. Only after all the lights went out does Dany decide to get on Drogon to burn the wight army.

So, I see no sign whatsoever as impulsivity from the Dothraki and nobody reacts as if they did something that was not the plan. Conclusion: the charge was the plan.

 

Maybe it was the plan.  Deploying the Dothraki where they were pretty much necessitated a charge.  No way they receive the charge of the dead w/o breaking and disrupting the unsullied.

Edited by Tywin Tytosson

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Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, darmody said:

 

 in this episode, I think it would've been better to have most of the characters in the castle, and have the Night King hang back and send his White Walker lieutenants in to fetch Bran. Then the characters with Valyrian steel have to kill them, and as they die the zombies they control fall chunk by chunk. Eventually the Night King has to go in himself and is surprised by Ninja Turtle Arya. 

Mmmm..... but that wouldn't be true to how we see the walkers behave elsewhere.  They don't go in until they believe that they have won and would not face any real danger.  The Night King even more so.  He only ever went in to kill the 3-Eyed Raven, and only after it was safe to do so. 

Edited by Tywin Tytosson

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4 minutes ago, Tywin Tytosson said:

Mmmm..... but that wouldn't be true to how we see the walkers behave elsewhere.  They don't go in until they believe that they have won and would not face any real danger.  The Night King even more so.  He only ever went in to kill the 3-Eyed Raven, and only after it was safe to do so. 

We've seen two battles with White Walkers. At the lake they held back, but at Hardhome they charged right in there. 

 

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9 hours ago, Corvinus said:

The battle took place pretty much on the same battlefield where the Boltons crushed Stannis. We saw a massive cavalry charge in that battle, which even involved some flanking. So there's room to maneuver. Brienne was witness to that.

So you think the army of the dead was the same size as Stannis' army. 

 

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5 hours ago, #teamNightking said:

What's more important is overall the writing was crap and like 16 times people were saved "just in time".  Hack writing. 

Hack writing, kind of like how KL was saved by the Lannister and Tyrells showing up just in time to save them. Or a dragon showing up just in time to save the Queen in the fighting pits. Or having a story with a hidden prince. Or a magical sword.

When your book comes out with only new ideas and no retread tropes let me know!

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10 hours ago, TwiceBorn said:

5. If you start the charge with say 100 horsemen covered by dragons and but as few as 30 are about to reach the WWs it is probably enough to lure the NK to attack one of the dragons.

The Dothraki horde was supposed to be about 30 000 strong. 

They are not getting in and out of Winterfell or between the infantry formations in anything under an hour or two. That charge was bigger than Sobieski's Poles at Vienna (1683). 

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6 hours ago, #teamNightking said:

I know one thing for certain. It's not worth the effort to debate something so meaningless and for which I don't really care about what the outcome is and concerning an episode I did not like. 

But 

Jorah drew his sword. Anything more than that is an assumption. Maybe he drew it before he was going to wait a while more. 

Jon and Dany didn't say anything. But not much was said by anyone during this episode but for a fact the plan was changed due to the Dothroki charge.

 Did the Dothroki charge early? I say maybe. Which is what I said before. Don't know, don't care, doesn't matter. 

What's more important is overall the writing was crap and like 16 times people were saved "just in time".  Hack writing. 

Can’t agree more. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, dbunting said:

Hack writing, kind of like how KL was saved by the Lannister and Tyrells showing up just in time to save them. Or a dragon showing up just in time to save the Queen in the fighting pits. Or having a story with a hidden prince. Or a magical sword.

When your book comes out with only new ideas and no retread tropes let me know!

Magic swords and Secret Kings aren't hackery as such. They're cliches. This thread is not substantially about complaining that the show is too cliched. 

Tywin and the Tyrells swooping in to save Joffrey was not hack writing. It may be cliched, but it was well-established that Little Finger put that alliance together, and why wouldn't they send forces South considering everyone knew Stannis was going to invade by sea from Dragonstone.

Game of Thrones is overfond of last-minute saves. Blackwater was smart. The fighting pits was not, however the entire Mereen plot was stupid so what's the difference? The Vale army jumping into the Battle of the Bastards was pre-established, but the show cheated by having Sansa keep them secret for no reason and Ramsay somehow having no advanced notice of the hundreds of miles they passed in his territory. 

Edited by darmody

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6 hours ago, Tywin Tytosson said:

The Dothraki aren't a disciplined modern cavalry force; they are a medieval cavalry force.  If they decide to charge, they charge. Regardless of what some commander wants (or orders).

That is nonsense. Even a medieval cavalry charged when ordered and not on a whim.

Plus, the Dothraki may be wild but they still obey their khal and his kos. They may not know much about battle strategy but that does't mean they don't follow orders.  

3 hours ago, dbunting said:

Hack writing, kind of like how KL was saved by the Lannister and Tyrells showing up just in time to save them. Or a dragon showing up just in time to save the Queen in the fighting pits. Or having a story with a hidden prince. Or a magical sword.

When your book comes out with only new ideas and no retread tropes let me know!

There is a difference if you do it once in a time, or umpteen times within half an hour. The former can be OK if done well, the latter is fine only in comedies.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

That is nonsense. Even a medieval cavalry charged when ordered and not on a whim.

Disagree.   It is not nonsense.  I was thinking of western European knights, which very often did as they wanted.  Many only followed orders from their direct lords, not necessarily an army or 'Battle' commander.    Sometimes they wouldn't wait for the rest of the army to deploy.  What was the battle in the Hundred Years War where the French knights came upon the English infantry and each group charged when they got to the battlefield, instead of waiting to form up into a larger force?  Was that Crecy?  (I am forgetting).  The Crusades are full of this kind of behavior from the 'Frankish' knights.

There are accounts of troops, especially mercenaries, forcing a battle against the wish of their army commander and paymaster. 

Infantry would even charge against commanders wishes or without orders (from higher up) such as Swiss and Landsknecht forces, which despised each other. 

 

Byzantine cavalry is a different story.   :)

Quote


Plus, the Dothraki may be wild but they still obey their khal and his kos. They may not know much about battle strategy but that does't mean they don't follow orders.  

 

 

True, but the khals and khos would share the same mindset.  They would be impetuous as well, if not more so.   They are the bravest and the strongest.

Edited by Tywin Tytosson

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