Why are they plotting a coup?

[Cas Stark]

2 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Perhaps she does. But then Dany isn’t doing this for herself. If happiness had been her object then she would have stayed with Drogo in the Dothraki Sea. She believes this is her destiny, and it is. I am not sure how else you can rationalise her getting dragons and her fortuitously arriving in time for the Battle of Winter. Plus freeing all of Essos.

Although, assuming they don’t burn the whole city down, they have set it up so there’s an appropriately large body of people in the Red Keep. So they might be setting that up as a twist that the people of Westeros have a change of heart.

Yeah but her dragons weren't any kind of game changer in that battle.  

[Tyrion1991]

14 minutes ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

I get that she’s in a seriously dark place right now. Even more reason that she should be willing to take a few days to wrap her head around it before she goes marching off to war with her tiny and exhausted army. That’s not good strategy, and it’s not good rulership. 

That’s the whole point. She refuses to allow anyone to give her real, hard advice about ruling, which is why she’s a good conqueror but a terrible queen.  

Sansa did an awful job of conveying it to her, but Sansa wasn’t wrong. Dany just isn’t willing to look beyond it to the actual advice. She doesn’t need to leave Westeros, or abandon her goal, or dump Jon, or defer to his leadership. 

One night of getting trashed and walking for miles a day is not resting your army. Marching a fatigued army south is exactly the strategy that lost Harold the Battle of Hastings and led to the Norman Conquest.  

 

Hu. I wonder if all of Danys mood swings and concern Jon would leave her is because she’s pregnant.

The army is described as being evenly matched by Davos. 

Sansa says they are exhausted by this isn’t shown to us. Think Stannis when he was marching to Winterfell. Sansa mentions it off hand and I doubt it will be relevant to the show. Sansa also mentioned in an earlier episode that feeding the army would be difficult but that amounted to nothing. The show runners are just having the character talk waffle when it comes to these things.

You are describing Tyrion’s arc for this season. He will get through to her. Right now that drunk dwarf is all she’s got left.

No because Jon has spilt the beans. Tyrion and Varys are non chalont that the realm will try to unite to put him on the throne. That does leave no place for her in Westeros and it does mean deferring to Jon.

Shes not force marching then like Harold did.

[Stark_in_Winterfell]

18 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

So it’s become extremely apparent that the Starks and Tyrion are plotting to declare Jon King. This is clearly the main twist.

Iam truly lost for words. Sansa and Arya were genuinely all for not marching south to fight Cersei. After Dany lost Jorah and most of her army helping the living? Scum. Absolute scum. It’s beyond contempt. To have no empathy for somebody who has helped you and whose only condition was that you do something you wanted to do anyway.

Why are they making a power play? They’ve won. Winterfell is theirs and they’ve avenged their family. Putting Jon on the throne is a risk. What if Dany finds out? What if she doesn’t drop her claim quietly? That risks another civil war. All because you just don’t like somebody? 

 

 

 

 

The Starks, Sansa especially has gotten good at self-preservation. They chose to never kneel to anyone again because they always get used and screwed when they do. They fought their battle and wait for the next one. The dumped one queen just so they can be told to accept another? They aren't scum. The Glovers are scum for being such fickle banner men but they are dead now. If they march south again, most won't return. I'm pretty sure Sansa is never leaving Winterfell again. It isn't about not liking her. It's about her being yet another person claiming to be their rightful ruler. How many has it been now?  The north is good at ruling itself they got that figured out. they don't like outsiders for a reason. Outsiders see them as a prize to hold. The north is like Scotland, frequently colonized, but strong enough to stand on its own if they just ignore all the rest.

[Nightwish]

38 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Daenerys tried to make peace with Sansa in episode 2 I believe. Dany had been nothing but courteous to Sansa up until that point. So bad that Jon has at least twice had to tell her to stop being a brat. 

You are underselling how dark a state of mind Dany is in. The episode begins with her burning Jorah, has her lose a dragon and ends with Missandeis head being chopped off. Those are not normal circumstances. A bit of stiff upper lip isn’t what’s called for.

Did we forget the massive party they had? How is that not rest? Never mind the months it would take to move the armies south. They can’t rest on the Kings Road? 

Jon becomes King she could maybe return to Essos. But her entire arc will have been to put Jon on the throne. All the sacrifices and losses Dany has made will have been in vain. Thousands of people have willingly died to get her on that chair. It would be a betrayal of them if she turned aside so easily.

But yes, Dany could just leave Westeros with her armies tomorrow. Leave the Starks to their fate. But she won’t because she loves Jon.

Why not? It looks that her arc has been nothing more than a useful weapon for the Starks to eliminate two big threats Night king and Cersei. As much as she tries nobody appreciates anything. Sansa calls her a problem while hiding at the crypts, Arya says they don’t trust her, apparently only John does as she saved him twice. Meanwhile at Kings Landings nobody ever heard about the Deads and the Big Battle but are hiding in the Red keep under Cersei’s protection. So it’s all for nothing for her story. 

She lost her army, her best friend, Missandei, her dragons, no appreciation and Varys with Sansa are ready to stab her in the back when she eliminates Cersei and put John on the throne. 

 If she was clever she would have left them kill each other as they deserve to. 

[Tyrion1991]

2 minutes ago, Stark_in_Winterfell said:

The Starks, Sansa especially has gotten good at self-preservation. They chose to never kneel to anyone again because they always get used and screwed when they do. They fought their battle and wait for the next one. The dumped one queen just so they can be told to accept another? They aren't scum. The Glovers are scum for being such fickle banner men but they are dead now. If they march south again, most won't return. I'm pretty sure Sansa is never leaving Winterfell again. It isn't about not liking her. It's about her being yet another person claiming to be their rightful ruler. How many has it been now?  The north is good at ruling itself they got that figured out. they don't like outsiders for a reason. Outsiders see them as a prize to hold. The north is like Scotland, frequently colonized, but strong enough to stand on its own if they just ignore all the rest.

 

Technically they’ve made their bed with Dany; they’re just refusing to lie in it. Jon has already bent the knee. That ship has sailed. 

Because of what Dany has done in her own arc over the last few seasons. She isn’t just another claimant to the Iron Throne. Either Sansa knows what the audience does about Dany or she’s acting out of ignorance, which Jon twice accuses her of, and that not good enough for a supposedly intelligent person. 

 

[Nightwish]

9 minutes ago, Stark_in_Winterfell said:

The Starks, Sansa especially has gotten good at self-preservation. They chose to never kneel to anyone again because they always get used and screwed when they do. They fought their battle and wait for the next one. The dumped one queen just so they can be told to accept another? They aren't scum. The Glovers are scum for being such fickle banner men but they are dead now. If they march south again, most won't return. I'm pretty sure Sansa is never leaving Winterfell again. It isn't about not liking her. It's about her being yet another person claiming to be their rightful ruler. How many has it been now?  The north is good at ruling itself they got that figured out. they don't like outsiders for a reason. Outsiders see them as a prize to hold. The north is like Scotland, frequently colonized, but strong enough to stand on its own if they just ignore all the rest.

They should have stated it before Dany loses her army and her time trying to rescue the North. It’s apparent her contribution  doesn’t mean a thing for them. They could have come clear and state it. Now they want to backstab her. 

[LucyMormont]

1 hour ago, Ser Lepus said:

Does anybody not from the North want Jon on the throne? Because you know, just the North isn't enough to beat the rest of the Seven Kingdoms...

Well, the Vale will align with Sansa and support her candidate, and if their uncle Tully is still alive, he'd do the same. And Lord Sam Tarly of Horn Hill is obviously his most enthusiastic supporter, and I bet he will work for convincing the other Lords of the Reach of Jon's merits. 

[Tyrion1991]

8 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

Why not? It looks that her arc has been nothing more than a useful weapon for the Starks to eliminate two big threats Night king and Cersei. As much as she tries nobody appreciates anything. Sansa calls her a problem while hiding at the crypts, Arya says they don’t trust her, apparently only John does as she saved him twice. Meanwhile at Kings Landings nobody ever heard about the Deads and the Big Battle but are hiding in the Red keep under Cersei’s protection. So it’s all for nothing for her story. 

She lost her army, her best friend, Missandei, her dragons, no appreciation and Varys with Sansa are ready to stab her in the back when she eliminates Cersei and put John on the throne. 

 If she was clever she would have left them kill each other as they deserve to. 

 

Because she loves Jon and wants revenge on Cersei and Euron.

Its perfectly possible that Dany will drop her claim next episode in favour of Jon. But I see no reason to view that as a just ending for her.

[Coffeewiththegods]

3 hours ago, divica said:

The problem with the mad queen danny is that it should take much more time for people to realize it and it doesn t make sense if her and jon are in a relationship.

 

The director of episode 3 said they were done. I at first figured he said it just to hype things up, which still could be true but, after that last episode. Things seem to be heading that way.

[Tyrion1991]

2 minutes ago, LucyMormont said:

Well, the Vale will align with Sansa and support her candidate, and if their uncle Tully is still alive, he'd do the same. And Lord Sam Tarly of Horn Hill is obviously his most enthusiastic supporter, and I bet he will work for convincing the other Lords of the Reach of Jon's merits. 

 

Haven’t the Lannister and Greyjoy forces in this managed to destroy the combined armies of Dorne and the Tyrell’s? Before they had the Golden Company and artillery?

[Tyrion1991]

4 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

They should have stated it before Dany loses her army and her time trying to rescue the North. It’s apparent her contribution  doesn’t mean a thing for them. They could have come clear and state it. Now they want to backstab her. 

 They are going along with what Jon wants.

[Stark_in_Winterfell]

4 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Technically they’ve made their bed with Dany; they’re just refusing to lie in it. Jon has already bent the knee. That ship has sailed. 

Because of what Dany has done in her own arc over the last few seasons. She isn’t just another claimant to the Iron Throne. Either Sansa knows what the audience does about Dany or she’s acting out of ignorance, which Jon twice accuses her of, and that not good enough for a supposedly intelligent person. 

 

I'm not passing moral judgment on this fictitious story. I'm just looking at what has been presented in the story. I would argue that their self preservation is the higher ground over following someone that they never wanted to follow. They expected Jon to make a better decision for them. They chose him as their king and now they are in a bad situation because they are not supportive of his decision. For Jon it is his pact with the wildings and the Nights Watch all over again. I wonder if it will go the same way for him as it did before.

[Nightwish]

9 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Because she loves Jon and wants revenge on Cersei and Euron.

Its perfectly possible that Dany will drop her claim next episode in favour of Jon. But I see now reason to view that as a just ending for her.

I highly doubt it is simple as that because Sansa got in the middle and Varys took the bait there is a treason there. Dany already lost so much. Finally she will believe that Starks manipulated her to get the throne since she made other agreements with John and believed him whereas they want to throw her away once she finishes the job with Cersei. 

[The_Spanish_Inquisition]

10 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Hu. I wonder if all of Danys mood swings and concern Jon would leave her is because she’s pregnant.

The army is described as being evenly matched by Davos. 

Sansa says they are exhausted by this isn’t shown to us. Think Stannis when he was marching to Winterfell. Sansa mentions it off hand and I doubt it will be relevant to the show. Sansa also mentioned in an earlier episode that feeding the army would be difficult but that amounted to nothing. The show runners are just having the character talk waffle when it comes to these things.

You are describing Tyrion’s arc for this season. He will get through to her.

No because Jon has spilt the beans. Tyrion and Varys are non chalont that the realm will try to unite to put him on the throne. That does leave no place for her in Westeros and it does mean deferring to Jon.

Shes not force marching then like Harold did.

Dany has a long track record of rejecting good advice, and actively choosing to surround herself with advisors that either don’t advise, or do a terrible job of it. This is just another example of that. 

Maybe it will amount to nothing in the long run - you’re probably right there.

Dany wasn’t trained from birth to be a ruler. Other people were, and she’s not helping herself by ignoring or specifically not seeking their advice(and I don’t mean Sansa). 

[Nightwish]

Just now, Tyrion1991 said:

 They are going along with what Jon wants.

That was the surface, not their true intentions. Sansa constantly defies John. 

[Tyrion1991]

2 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

I highly doubt it is simple as that because Sansa got in the middle and Varys took the bait there is a treason there. She already lost what she lost. Finally she will believe that Starks manipulated her to get the throne since she made other agreements with John and believed him whereas they want to throw her away once she finishes the job with Cersei. 

 

Tyrions going to rat out Varys “you will die in this continent” - Melisandre.

Well they are. Jon has inadvertently began a plot to assassinate Dany and seize the Iron Throne via Sansa. He’s been a fool again.

[LucyMormont]

3 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Haven’t the Lannister and Greyjoy forces in this managed to destroy the combined armies of Dorne and the Tyrell’s? Before they had the Golden Company and artillery?

I highly doubt it, given that everybody's armies seem to magically pop up again when you think there's no one left. 

[Tyrion1991]

4 minutes ago, The_Spanish_Inquisition said:

Dany has a long track record of rejecting good advice, and actively choosing to surround herself with advisors that either don’t advise, or do a terrible job of it. This is just another example of that. 

Maybe it will amount to nothing in the long run - you’re probably right there.

Dany wasn’t trained from birth to be a ruler. Other people were, and she’s not helping herself by ignoring or specifically not seeking their advice(and I don’t mean Sansa). 

 

Well in season 7 most of that advice fell into “burn everything” and “oh please think of the children!”. This is a moral dilemma of ends justify the means, not a technical discussion is tactics.

Yes Daenerys played with the beggar children of Pentos whilst Jon beat up peasants who called him a bastard. It took quite a few good men clipping his ears for him to not be a jerk. Kind of.

[Nightwish]

4 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Tyrions going to rat out Varys “you will die in this continent” - Melisandre.

Well they are. Jon has inadvertently began a plot to assassinate Dany and seize the Iron Throne via Sansa. He’s been a fool again.

If Tyrion doesn’t say anything Dany will be surrounded by traitors.

[Hodor's Dragon]

18 minutes ago, Stark_in_Winterfell said:

The Starks, Sansa especially has gotten good at self-preservation. They chose to never kneel to anyone again because they always get used and screwed when they do. They fought their battle and wait for the next one. The dumped one queen just so they can be told to accept another? They aren't scum. The Glovers are scum for being such fickle banner men but they are dead now. If they march south again, most won't return. I'm pretty sure Sansa is never leaving Winterfell again. It isn't about not liking her. It's about her being yet another person claiming to be their rightful ruler. How many has it been now?  The north is good at ruling itself they got that figured out. they don't like outsiders for a reason. Outsiders see them as a prize to hold. The north is like Scotland, frequently colonized, but strong enough to stand on its own if they just ignore all the rest.

When did the north "always get screwed?" The realm had its longest era of peace and prosperity under united rule.

Ned Stark clearly wanted united rule. When Ned was Robert's right-hand man in winning the civil war and won half the battles personally, that would've been a great time for him to bring up northern independence if it was something he was interested in at all, but instead Ned wanted a united realm and therefore he helped install and then supported one united king. And when the Greyjoys rebelled, Ned was there to help put them down.

And why the hell not, there are obviously less stupid wars, less wanton destruction when individual lords aren't free to make wars on each other to serve their own ambitions. Hell, look at the north since Robert fell! That's what book 4 was all about, a tour of the North and it was a horror show from hell. 

That's what independence looked like. Independence looked like burned-out holdfasts, lots of corpses swinging from tree limbs. Independence was about the Boltons in Winterfell.

Also, when was Sansa all about "northern independence" before Daenerys showed up?

Finally, if the north duly appoints a king, that king takes the crown and rules legally, then bends the knee to a queen of the 7 kingdoms, doesn't that bind the north? If not, why did the north sit and take it when Ned gave fealty to Robert? If the north is going to rebuke its king the first time he does something controversial, can it even self-govern?