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I know a lot of people expected the Mad Daenerys twist but personally I was never one of them and this last episode has left me devastated, to say the least. I find myself desperately hoping that this is contrived for the purposes of the show and won’t come to pass in the books, but I have my doubts. Endings to something you love are always hard, but the ruination of one of my favorite characters in all of literature blindsided me.

 

what are your thoughts on Dany’s future and how do you feel about this development? 

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23 minutes ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

I find myself desperately hoping that this is contrived for the purposes of the show

Extremely unlikely. The foreshadowing was immense and Daenerys' chance of being Queen of the Seven Kingdoms were near null all the time anyway,. even without turning into the Mad Queen. 

Please accept that GRRM wrote this story, from the very first line knowing that Daenerys will not be the nice and mild queen. The ending in the book will be the same with regards of Daenerys destroying King's Landing and turning mad.

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Now I'm not interested in finishing the books. All I'll have is dread. I'm sure it will be much better written and more tragic and everything but for me it would be a waste of time. I'm just really not interested in the fate of the people of Westeros if it ends like this and the war with the army of the dead has no impact other than to make Dany feel more unloved. Again, not saying GRRM can't tell this story in a well-told way, but I just have no interest in reading this happen to this character, no matter how "earned". 

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I don't see her as mad.  She got the King's Landing.  That was always the goal.  Yes she wanted to be the breaker of the chains, but the people did not. 

In the end, the goal was accomplished.  The throne is hers.

The suspense in the last episode is with the Starks, how they will react to the new queen, and whether the rest of Westeros will reject Dany because of lineage.  

 

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1 minute ago, Hoo said:

I don't see her as mad.  She got the King's Landing.  That was always the goal.  Yes she wanted to be the breaker of the chains, but the people did not. 

In the end, the goal was accomplished.  The throne is hers.

No, the point is, KL surrendered. The smallfolk were prepared to accept her. She won. She sat on Drogon, contemplating her victory, and then went ahead and destroyed it all. THAT was madness.

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Just now, House Cambodia said:

No, the point is, KL surrendered. The smallfolk were prepared to accept her. She won. She sat on Drogon, contemplating her victory, and then went ahead and destroyed it all. THAT was madness.

Smallfolk weren't prepared for anything but to hide.  Smallfolk were like Cersei.  They were running for the gates.

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Just now, Hoo said:

Smallfolk weren't prepared for anything but to hide.  Smallfolk were like Cersei.  They were running for the gates.

Smallfolk were crying out to ring the bell - surrender. That wasn't Cercei's order.

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I think there were hints of her going mad from season one, and there is a lot of foreshadowing in the books too. I honestly expected her to burn the city in this episode, but I didn't imagine she would kill thousands of innocents after they surrendered the city. It probably could have been done a bit differently (for instance, after the surrender she could have burned the Red Keep all the same). I think she was probably trying to kill Jon as well.

I'm sorry if she was your favourite character, I understand that must hurt. I've never been a Dany's hater, but I gradually started to dislike her from Qarth on, I think that's where she started threatening people just for not giving her what she wanted.

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4 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

Smallfolk were crying out to ring the bell - surrender. That wasn't Cercei's order.

Surrender is not enough.  Surrender still made them the enemy, treasonous.  White flag did not change that.

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I feel bad for Dany fans.... its kinda hard to continue loving the woman after she did this. Other characters have done things that are pretty unforgiveable but managed to turn it round... killing hundreds of thousands innocent people is unredeemable me thinks.

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Yes, I am heartbroken for what is happening to Dany also.  She and Tyrion have been my favourites always.  I have no idea what her fate will be and it will definitely be the ultimate tragedy for me that she'll always be remembered as the "Mad Queen" and not for the many gracious acts she performed during her life quest and for her stoicism in rising above the cruelty and abuse she suffered as a young girl.   I was so very sad when Jon resisted her affectionate approach and made it clear he was rejecting an intimate relationship with her (Auntie or not).  I believe that is what broke her completely.  I am mourning her too...getting teary just writing this.  

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My favourite out of the main characters are  Tyrion and Arya, but I do like Dany (liked her more than Jon for sure) , and I also feel sad, I did not wish for this fate for her. Looking back, there was forshadowing, but at the same time there was always some reflecting on how she is not like her father, so I guess it could have gone either way, and I was never in the "Dany as a villain" camp. 

I guess that it was also unexpected for me, because I was pretty convinced that the dead would be the final enemy, and the final big twist would have something to do with the WW.  

 

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32 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Extremely unlikely. The foreshadowing was immense and Daenerys' chance of being Queen of the Seven Kingdoms were near null all the time anyway,. even without turning into the Mad Queen. 

Please accept that GRRM wrote this story, from the very first line knowing that Daenerys will not be the nice and mild queen. The ending in the book will be the same with regards of Daenerys destroying King's Landing and turning mad.

I never expected for Dany to be mild, exactly. But I think there are examples of Targs that were wonderful and terrible, complex contradictions. Then there were some that crossed the line to purely villainous, like Viserys or Aerys. I thought Dany would be the former, not the latter. I thought she would do terrible but necessary things, like many of the other characters have. I never thought she would create carnage that has no strategic value or moral justification. She’s always had a violent, ruthless streak that should make anyone uncomfortable at times. That’s what made her such a compelling character to me. But I never pictured her arc as a complete descent into madness.

 

just curious, can you picture any scenario in which Dany’s burning of KL is more morally grey than appears in the show? For instance, could it be compared to Aegon the conqueror’s burning of Harrenhall or do you think the civilian population puts them in different categories?

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1 minute ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

I never expected for Dany to be mild, exactly. But I think there are examples of Targs that were wonderful and terrible, complex contradictions.

Of course, this story could go both ways. That's why it was full of tensions and expectations. Nothing was sure.

Daenerys exhibited a good heart and good intentions again and again. She is not a bad or mad person. She snapped because she realized she is alone and lonely and no one will love her. 

3 minutes ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

I never thought she would create carnage that has no strategic value or moral justification.

That what "snapping" is about. Losing reason.

4 minutes ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

 She’s always had a violent, ruthless streak that should make anyone uncomfortable at times. That’s what made her such a compelling character to me.

True. And same for me. I like her character, but her personality was always difficult.

4 minutes ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

just curious, can you picture any scenario in which Dany’s burning of KL is more morally grey than appears in the show?

I wouldn't apply morality to someone snapping mad. She freaks out. This is not primarily about moral standards, but about madness, turned on by frustration, fury, desperation. 

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15 minutes ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

I feel bad for Dany fans.... its kinda hard to continue loving the woman after she did this. Other characters have done things that are pretty unforgiveable but managed to turn it round... killing hundreds of thousands innocent people is unredeemable me thinks.

I do think part of it is the way they chose to depict the act, so I have some hope it won’t be so unforgivable in the books, if it happens. The kicker in the show is that it happens after the city surrenders. If KL won’t surrender in the books, perhaps it could be portrayed as Dany having to make some sort of nuclear choice? Like, raze one city and end the war in a day, which will save millions of lives or let the war keep going and kill millions more. I could live with something like that because it keeps Dany’s moral complexity.

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1 minute ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

The kicker in the show is that it happens after the city surrenders.

Come one, that is the one good thing about it. It really depicts the madness. Well done in the show.

She snaps because she realizes that she has nothing to gain, even after winning the battle. The people won't love her, Jon won't consummate the mutual love, she will be lonely and bitter. She freaks out. 

See the psychology of it. This is a great and believable arc. 

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46 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Extremely unlikely. The foreshadowing was immense and Daenerys' chance of being Queen of the Seven Kingdoms were near null all the time anyway,. even without turning into the Mad Queen. 

Please accept that GRRM wrote this story, from the very first line knowing that Daenerys will not be the nice and mild queen. The ending in the book will be the same with regards of Daenerys destroying King's Landing and turning mad.

I agree, I did make the point that the book was a little more open and it could go either way. However it wouldn't be shocking in the books because the foreshadowing was there. It will not be as jumpy as the series, which is why the books are a must to make sense of it all. 

Not once did I think it would be a happy ending for her or easy if she did get on the throne, I just expected the madness element to be different. That's the part that I can't accept. I always said the Mad Queen route is lazy but that's because I knew it would be done in a lazy way, there should have been more to it. I know people argue that it was coming but it's not enough for me.

If we're meant to accept that it's a series and that's the best they could do then also no, it's pathetic.

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18 minutes ago, Lynn-Ann said:

Yes, I am heartbroken for what is happening to Dany also.  She and Tyrion have been my favourites always.  I have no idea what her fate will be and it will definitely be the ultimate tragedy for me that she'll always be remembered as the "Mad Queen" and not for the many gracious acts she performed during her life quest and for her stoicism in rising above the cruelty and abuse she suffered as a young girl.   I was so very sad when Jon resisted her affectionate approach and made it clear he was rejecting an intimate relationship with her (Auntie or not).  I believe that is what broke her completely.  I am mourning her too...getting teary just writing this.  

Yes! And it frustrates me so much that they chose to use her relationship with Jon as the thing that pushed her over the edge... not even Missandei or Jorah, just Jon. I feel like it is such a disservice to Dany’s character.

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