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Daemos

This is all Jon’s fault

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Just now, Ilissa said:

It is only about sibling marriages.

 

Are you familiar with the larger quote that includes aunts, nephews, cousins, etc listed out as the Valyrian/Targaryen incest norm?

I have no idea why the show left these details out until now... oh wait, yes I do. It was purposely done for final season shock! We have Benioff Behind the Episode tell us Jon is worried about his blood relation to Dany, and Varys (someone finally) mentioning this on screen. THIS is why Bran was left off the show for a full season. Bran would have found this out two seasons ago and this whole issue would have created a very different story than what is on screen now.

Don't fall for it, please.

Just now, Ilissa said:

 

Do you really not see the difference? In my country avunculate marriage is legal. But siblings cannot marry, of course. 

Sorry, but what does your real life country have to do with Martinworld? And by Martinwolrd, I mean his entire literary career where he addresses this issue in fantasy stories. This is an honest question (promise) because sometimes people bring up friends who are the result of cousin marriages, or their own country, some long ago Spanish dynasty that also died out because of incest problems. GRRM has his own rules for how this works, otherwise we would see not just real mental instability and "madness" after eons of inbreeding, but the Targaryens would not be exceptionally beautiful as a people. Plus, the Targs would not be literally the only culture on Planetos that would regularly and openly practice incest. GRRM has said the norm is to marry to increase bloodlines and land, etc. Even the supposedly 'savage' free folk don't practice incest.

Just now, Ilissa said:

 

 

 

Avunculate marriage is not a problem for the Middle Ages and for Westeros. 

Real life middle ages has little to nothing to do with this. GRRM has said his world is only 'loosely' based on real world anything. That means his fantasy rules rule. This is the same thing across all of his works.

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7 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

D&D are peeing on you guys and you all think it is snow on Christmas Day.

Please lets refrain from comments such as these.  The add nothing and are just, well, sad.   Let's keep the discussions on point.

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11 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

The Greyjoys, especially the one that Martin himself calls "dumb as a stump" is not the one to try and make a rational case out of. Seriously. This is how the lesson is taught to readers. Show, don't tell. Add it to the list of examples that shows how this incest idea is wrong on so many storytelling levels.

That's not what @Ilissa is saying.

The fact that holier-than-thou Aeron thinks that a marriage between Victarion and Asha is a good idea and makes him think about the old way in a fond way tells us all we need to know.

That somehow an avuncular marriage is a good idea but Asha, as Balon's sole remaining child, taking her rightful place as Balon's heir is a bad one? Despite the fact that she has proven herself? That would suggest that avuncular marriage doesn't bother someone of Aeron's ilk.

Also, keep in mind that Aeron also has the political wherewithal to mentally finger-wag and question Asha for not seeing the obvious thing he is seeing: that a marriage makes sense because it solves all dynastic claims, preserves a strong bloodline and paves the way for strong, capable children.

Regardless of whether she wants it or not, it's the wisest and easiest political solution. Asha only resists what she recognizes as a good idea because she doesn't want to get married, sit around, get pregnant, push out multiple babies and play third-fiddle to her uncle.

Daenerys doesn't have that issue, in the show or the books.

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16 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

It is Jon's fault just as much as it is society's fault today when a troubled person with mental issues doesn't get the medical help he/she needs and instead goes on a killing spree because of it.

Ultimately it is Daenerys' fault because she did the deed, but you can make a list of factors that contributed to her downward spiral into darkness, and the combination of these factors, all in a short spawn of time, was what finally caused her to snap: 

- Jon's unrequited love, and being rejected for the second time.
- Cersei's cruelty and treachery.
- The loss of 2(3) of her children.
- The loss of her closest friend (Missandei) in a very cruel manner.
- The loss of her oldest friend, adviser and protector (Jorah).
- The open defiance Sansa and several northerners. 
- The ungrateful response by the northerners when she just bled and fought for them.
- The "loss" of loyalty from her advisers.
- The general feeling of betrayal from people she considers to be on her team (Jon, Sansa, Tyrion, Varys)
- Even her destiny and rightful claim was taken away from her with the revelation of Aejon, leading her to question herself.

Jon's unrequited love was simply one in a long list of causes, but ultimately was the very thing that caused her to snap, because it was more or less the last thing she thought she had to loose at that point. After his rejections, she knows she will never rule Westeros as a beloved queen with him by her side, so she reverts to ruling by fear and terror. Basically, as Deadpool would say, "she finally hit 'fuck it'". 

As for why she decided to burn down King's Landing then and there, after they had already surrendered, I'm not so sure.
Maybe that was the plan from the very beginning (she does say something very suspicious about "you know the signal" to Greyworm in valyrian in this very episode), or maybe the bells reminded her of what Tyrion had said over and over, and she considered them to be one final ruse/betrayal from the Lannisters, instead of being what they actually where: a sign of surrender.
Or maybe the writers had no clue on how to make her final decent in to the Queen of the Ashes look believable, so they simply had her attack innocents in a fit of rage and bloodthirst for no apparent reason at all...

Her decent into darkness is really badly portrayed on the show however, and comes across as laughably forced, rushed, contrived and badly written. The turn from her being Mhysa, protector of the downtrodden for 7 seasons, to becoming a tyrant who kills hundreds of thousands of innocents is so sudden and sharp that it's immersion breaking.

When (if) GRRM finishes the books, I'm certain that his portrayal of Daenerys decent will be much better written, paced, nuanced and explained. 

No. That’s bullshit. One is never at fault for another’s actions. No one make sure anyone else do anything. You must be responsible and accountable for your own actions. GTFoH,

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16 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Her decent into darkness is really badly portrayed on the show however, and comes across as laughably forced, rushed, contrived and badly written. The turn from her being Mhysa, protector of the downtrodden for 7 seasons, to becoming a tyrant who kills hundreds of thousands of innocents is so sudden and sharp that it's immersion breaking.

This I can see and even agree with.  There was a lack of time to see and establish Dany's complete descent.   Though I might quibble over 'badly written'.  Oh, for 10 episodes :)

 

16 hours ago, MinscS2 said:


When (if) GRRM finishes the books, I'm certain that his portrayal of Daenerys decent will be much better written, paced, nuanced and explained. 

Me too.

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3 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

That's not what @Ilissa is saying.

Ilissa and I are discussing this. Thank you for speaking up for Ilissa.

3 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

The fact that holier-than-thou Aeron thinks that a marriage between Victarion and Asha is a good idea and makes him think about the old way in a fond way tells us all we need to know.

The old way is the rock and salt wife. Where in the histories do we hear of incest on the Iron Islands? The iron Born are a branch of the free folk, and we are told and shown over and over how they "steal from afar" and don't bed clan kin.

3 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

That somehow an avuncular marriage is a good idea but Asha, as Balon's sole remaining child, taking her rightful place as Balon's heir is a bad one? Despite the fact that she has proven herself? That would suggest that avuncular marriage doesn't bother someone of Aeron's ilk.

Also, keep in mind that Aeron also has the political wherewithal to mentally finger-wag and question Asha for not seeing the obvious thing he is seeing: that a marriage makes sense because it solves all dynastic claims, preserves a strong bloodline and paves the way for strong, capable children.

Regardless of whether she wants it or not, it's the wisest and easiest political solution. Asha only resists what she recognizes as a good idea because she doesn't want to get married, sit around, get pregnant, push out multiple babies and play third-fiddle to her uncle.

 

Aeron is a religious zealot. What do you think that means in this world? There is a pattern here.

3 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

 

Daenerys doesn't have that issue, in the show or the books.

Correct, because her crazy ass abusive brother taught her this. It is the only thing she has known and been conditioned for- as were the Targ children raised in the Red Keep. Inmany cases it was actually harder (or more rare depending on the time) for Targs to marry out of the family. Dany at one point assumed she would be wed to Rhaegar, and then crazy Viserys wanted a go at her too. Not real healthy there.

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27 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

The Greyjoys, especially the one that Martin himself calls "dumb as a stump" is not the one to try and make a rational case out of. Seriously. This is how the lesson is taught to readers. Show, don't tell. Add it to the list of examples that shows how this incest idea is wrong on so many storytelling levels.

Aeron knows the law and traditions. And he knows that uncle / niece marriage is not a problem. The priest should not be too smart to know the basic things.

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15 hours ago, Red Dragon10 said:

Jon absolutely has some responsibility in this,

No, Jon does not.  Jon did not make the decision to firebomb KL.  Dany did.  Dany's decision.   Dany's responsibility.

Dany does have potential 'extenuating circumstances', but she decided to follow a course of action that could very well end up killing as many people as the Night King did.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, SansaJonRule said:

She did have advisors to check her worst impulses. Tyrion begged her not to destroy KL.

Tyrion knows shit.
Dany never wanted to destroy KL. THAT'S THE CAPITAL AND WHERE SHE WOULD RULE. People are actually making shit up to explain the bad writing.

If she had took the city as she planned first (yes a few casualties would happen but that's war for you) the city would surrender eventually, much faster actually with three dragons on sight, she wouldn't have targeted civillians and destroyed the whole city just like the last shitsode, AND:

1-the NK wouldn't get Viserion
2-the bells of death wouldn't flip her madness switch to on
3-she wouldn't have lost half her army
4-Cersei would be out
 


All logic spoken here. Aside from Saint Tyrion.

Edited by Nami

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lol right....it was her choice alone to burn every single person in the city. Boohoo Dany.

 

All she ever cared for was the throne. Jon even told her he didnt want it. She demanded that he lie to his family about who he was and threatened in a subtle way Sansa....what a great way to start a relationship.

 

She's always been an idiot.

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6 minutes ago, Ilissa said:
Aeron knows the law and traditions. And he knows that uncle / niece marriage is not a problem. The priest should not be too smart to know the basic things.

Even the co-author of the history books knows what's going on:

No  other houses copied Targaryen polygamy in the post-Aegon era for the same reason that no one copied Targaryen incest: it was a unique privilege permitted to them and no one else.  Simple as  that. Source

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7 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Daenerys reasoning back in S6E10 doesn't agree with you. She wanted to marry in order to cement an alliance, not because she wanted a fuckboy.

This was Tyrion's advice, which she followed at that time.  She likely was not expecting a marriage of equals.

 

7 hours ago, MinscS2 said:


As of S7E4, it was clear that the only eligible bachelor remaining in the Seven Kingdoms where a marriage would also result in powerful military alliance was *drumroll* Jon Snow, a man she fell in love with a few episodes later. 

Still no talk about marriage alliances though because...again, it would make too much sense and would give us a too happy an ending. Not to mention all the "awesome northern drama" we would've missed out on this season if they had been married. :rolleyes:
 

I don't think that we would have missed out on said drama.  Not unless it was a marriage of equals, and Jon kept his title as King in the North.

But Dany does not want to share the throne.  We are even told this by Varys in ep 4.

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9 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Are you familiar with the larger quote that includes aunts, nephews, cousins, etc listed out as the Valyrian/Targaryen incest norm?

Why do I need it? It's you who have trouble with avunculate marriage, not me. You have no evidence that avunculate marriage is banned in Westeros. We only know about the prohibition of sibling marriages. 

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6 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

No  other houses copied Targaryen polygamy in the post-Aegon era for the same reason that no one copied Targaryen incest

Targaryen incest it is about sibling marriages, not about avunculate marriage.

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Posted (edited)

I think Jon and the Northern forces will get the blame for supporting her and fighting for her, even if they didn't know she was going to go ballistic.  Northern troops were taking part in the war crimes, so yes, he gets some blame. Also, let's not forget that the wight hunt is what allowed the NK to gain access into Westeros, so he had a hand in that as well. I don't see how Jon comes out of this mess with anyone's respect. I see him being given the same option that LF gave to Ned right when King Robert was dying. LF told Ned to take control, but honorable Ned wouldn't do it, and here, Varys gave Jon the option to take control, but honorable Jon wouldn't do it. ETA: Jon seems to be making all of the wrong choices.

Edited by Bear Claw

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, Daemos said:

They already fucked. And he clearly wants to, but is holding back. Why? Because of his code? Fuck that. The world is burning because of his code. Dany would’ve been a great ruler if she had people around her to temper her worst impulses. 

No. Daenerys’s is a shitty ruler because SHE decided to kill er people.  

 

“He is no dragon, fire cannot kill a dragon.”

Edited by TheMachine

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13 minutes ago, of man and wolf said:

lol right....it was her choice alone to burn every single person in the city. Boohoo Dany.

 

All she ever cared for was the throne. Jon even told her he didnt want it. She demanded that he lie to his family about who he was and threatened in a subtle way Sansa....what a great way to start a relationship.

 

She's always been an idiot.

Daenerys has clearly care for more than just the Iron Throne. She cared for Jorah, Missandei, the slaves she set free, Viserys, Drogo, her baby, the Lhazareen women she saved, Daario, Irri, Doreah, Barristan, Meereen, etc.

D&D are already trying to retcon huge swathes of their show, we don't need you doing it too.

And I don't see anything wrong with Daenerys caring about the Iron Throne.

Daenerys is just as entitled to the Iron Throne as the Starks are entitled to Winterfell.

  • It was created by their families
  • It has been the property of their families longer than it has been the property of her enemies
  • It has been the power base and crown jewel for their families longer than it has been the power base of their enemies
  • Both families didn't lost their properties in a bad business deal or due to natural occurrence of disease; they didn't abandon it. It was taken from them and it wasn't even taken fairly in war. They lost it due to treachery, ill-thought schemes and terrible decisions made by flawed people that had huge, unforeseen consequences

No one had a problem with Sansa or Jon demanding that Winterfell be returned by House Stark or else. Why should we have a problem with Daenerys demanding the Iron Throne be reclaimed by House Targaryen or else?

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Posted (edited)

Welp, this topic surely exploded while I was off to work. 

Regarding the whole "Daenerys is mad(insane) because of what she did"-debate that's currently raging, my personal stance on this (be it fiction or reality) is that I consider any murderer (talking actual murder here, not accidental killings, self defense, or war, etc) to be mentally unstable to some degree. No fully sane person murders another person in cold blood.

Daenerys is clearly not insane in the "balls to the wall crazy, I see pink elephants everywhere and hear train whistles whenever my dog barks. Do you hear the voices too?"-way. She clearly has a tactic that she follows through with, and is fully aware of what she's doing.

She does however, decide that she can from this point on only rule via fear and tyranny, and then willfully proceeds to murder hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians as a means to secure her own rule. While this isn't outright insanity, it shows signs of a grave (and in her case, very sudden) loss and lack of empathy for people she once wanted to care about, which is a clear indication of a psychopath. Killing innocents for your own gain is also, ultimately, something very very evil.

So, is Daenerys now insane? No, not more so than many other characters on this show.
She can however, as of this episode, without too much fuzz be considered an evil psychopath. 

In DnD-terms, Daenerys, in a very short spawn of time, went from Neutral Good to Chaotic Evil.

They really ruined my favorite character this season... :unsure:
 

55 minutes ago, TheMachine said:

No. That’s bullshit. One is never at fault for another’s actions. No one make sure anyone else do anything. You must be responsible and accountable for your own actions. GTFoH,

I think you should read what I wrote one more time.
I never blamed Jon for Daenerys' actions this episode, but in return, his actions (voluntary or otherwise) are a part of what ultimately made her act the way she did.  Had he acted differently in certain scenarios, then so would she, and it's very likely that he could've acted in a way that ultimately would've made her not go all fire and blood on KL. Hindsight is 20/20 and all that.

So is he to blame for what happened? No.
Could he had changed the outcome? Yes.

44 minutes ago, Tywin Tytosson said:

This was Tyrion's advice, which she followed at that time.  She likely was not expecting a marriage of equals.

I don't think that we would have missed out on said drama.  Not unless it was a marriage of equals, and Jon kept his title as King in the North.

We will probably never know for sure. Daenerys at the time had no clue what potential marriage she might have been up for. 

She does treat him as an equal during the majority of S7 however.
She almost looks pleased when he tells her off in S7E5 when he does his "I don't need your permission, I am a king"-speech.

Quote

But Dany does not want to share the throne.  We are even told this by Varys in ep 4.

Varys says this after he's already decided to turn on Daenerys and is trying to get Tyrion on board. I wouldn't really trust anything Varys says regarding her at this point. He's not being objective, he has his own agenda. 
Many have already pointed out that Daenerys are more than willing to share power, but then it ultimately doesn't matter because Jon doesn't want power. It would be the perfect arrangement for them both, in addition to solve more or less all of the issues regarding succession and claims.

It's the same with him saying "Jon won't want to marry her because she is his aunt", there is no precedent for this statement, as the last couple of pages in this very thread has clearly shown. We (the audience) don't even know why Jon is reluctant, we can only guess, and If we don't know, then Varys doesn't, and it's just something he said in order to get Tyrion on board.

Edited by MinscS2

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Vernon Roche said:

I think what most frustrates me is even with the material they've used there are so many more effective means of utilising it. For instance, Jon rejecting Dany's romantic overtures and that being her last forlorn hope to cling to before a descent into "fear it is then" would have been significantly more impactful if repositioned. It'd have carried more weight if they'd used more scenes to show her slowly withdrawing emotionally, not eating etc to open the episode (not just a throw away line) and then had her reach out to Jon for that reassurance as they stood atop some rubble/ruin staring over Kings Landing as the bells rang, perhaps throw in a few moments of grateful peasants thanking Jon for liberating them as he speaks with her (of course this would coincide with showing Cersei as more of a despotic ruler who harms the people in earlier episodes). His rejection, their adoration and coupled with her paranoia leading to her then snapping despite the battle having been won and mercy granted would have been a much better way to go, at least for me.

For me, this season has all the big building blocks and none of the cement that helps keep the wall you're building structurally sound. Just little additions, extra character driven scenes. Dany going mad has been given context and groundwork earlier, but the execution of the "snap" has been so rushed that what should be a massive moment is... oh ok, that's where we are going then?

How was it a throw a way line? Varys was trying to poison her. Plain and simple, but very far from a throw away line. We must be watching different shows.

Edited by TheMachine

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, Nami said:

Dany never wanted to destroy KL. THAT'S THE CAPITAL AND WHERE SHE WOULD RULE. People are actually making shit up to explain the bad writing.

This is not true.

In S7, Dany brings up Viserys, and asks if he would have already attacked KL.  Which indicates that she has already thought of this.  And has been talked out of doing by Tyrion.

Later, after suffering several reversals, she declares that she will fly to the Red Keep and burn it down.  Jon talks her out of doing so this time.

After the Long Night, Dany wants to root Cersei out "root and stem".  Doing so means going directly after Cersei, who is in the Red Keep in KL.  Jon and Tyrion convince her otherwise.

After Rheagal and Missandei are killed, she absolutely does want to attack KL.  Tyrion uses the time needed for her army to reach KL to try one last time for a peaceful solution.

It is all there to be seen.  Nothing made up.

Edited by Tywin Tytosson

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