Heresy 223 and where we go from here

[Direwolf Blitzer]

 

9 hours ago, SirArthur said:

My problem with the Stark afterlife is the same as with king's blood: who decides who has it and who not ? As a reminder, only the Lords have statues and only the statues have swords on them.  There is no general protection for every male Stark with a bloodline to the Stark kings of old. The Karstarks may even be unprotected. 

Not only that, but if the Bael stories is true the Starks were extinguished in the male line long ago. I guess magic isn't carried on the Y chromosome! (Which would explain Brynden Rivers)

 

10 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Could their decline be connected with the arrival of the dragons?

Possibly, but remember the dragons themselves were only 3 centuries from extinction when they landed in Westeros. And it is the return of direwolves which we see matched with the return of dragons. Maybe it's all tied to the comet. Incidentally, did you know the name "Lucifer" means "lightbringer?"

 

2 hours ago, St Daga said:

You are only a boy, I know, but you are our prince as well, our lord's son and our king's true heir. We have sworn you our faith by earth and water, bronze and iron, ice and fire. ASOS-Bran I

Here's a fun tinfoil: What king? I don't recall any reeds declaring for Robb Stark, the King in the North. 

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I'm thinking Ned wasn't convinced enough about his own historical past to ensure his immediate family had iron swords. If Lyanna was indeed a skinchanger it might explain why Theon also saw her. Her spirit is wandering around down in the crypts too.

Rickard and Brandon's statues had swords, because these are the swords that Meera and Bran take from the crypts. It's only Lyanna that seems to have no sword, otherwise it seems like Meera would have taken that, if it was the size meant for a female. Meera complains that Rickards sword is to heavy, so if a smaller sword was available, I think she would have taken it. 

I need to go back and think on Theon's dream in which he saw Rickard, Brandon and Lyanna. Was that before or after Bran and Co removed the swords on several of the crypts?

And Ned's statue had a sword, so the tradition continued even after his death. Even though his bones were not laid to rest yet, his statue was completed and he has an iron sword.

Theon has his dream about the Feast of the Dead that includes sightings of Rickard, Brandon and Lyanna after Bran and Rickon have disappeared. Bran doesn't tell us until a later chapter about the swords, but I bet that they have been removed from the statues by the time of Theon's dream. Perhaps that leaves Rickard and Brandon free to roam, too? As to Lyanna, I have wondered if she hasn't been walking around Winterfell for some time.  Jon has an incident, when Tyrion calls him a bastard, were Jon feels a "coldness pass right through him", and I think this could be Lyanna's spirit moving through Jon. Later, Theon has a couple "cold" sensations while at Winterfell, and once he felt like the "night touched him with cold fingers". And I think one time Bran feels a wolf wail like a coldness, which is interesting (can't find the quote on this one, so perhaps I am miss remembering). Any way, if Lyanna is in the crypts, and is not warded, could she feel vengeful and roam Winterfell and it's surrounding areas?

Also, I wonder about Ned. His bones are not in the crypts, so where ever he is, would his spirit be free to roam? Arya has the experience with him in the Harrenhal godswood, a place Ned has probably been before. Bran and Rickon both dream of him in the crypts. Cersei see's him watching her when she has her walk of shame although Cersei also feels Lady and Sansa's presence. Now, Sansa isn't dead, but Lady is, and perhaps not warded. There are a few other hints that Ned's spirit might be roaming free, I think.

[St Daga]

13 minutes ago, Direwolf Blitzer said:

3 hours ago, St Daga said:

You are only a boy, I know, but you are our prince as well, our lord's son and our king's true heir. We have sworn you our faith by earth and water, bronze and iron, ice and fire. ASOS-Bran I

Here's a fun tinfoil: What king? I don't recall any reeds declaring for Robb Stark, the King in the North. 

What are you thinking, if they don't mean Robb? Like a mystical king of winter? Or a Night's King kind of vibe? I guess I just followed that all the North declared for Robb as KitN, even if they were not at Riverrun. Lord's son is Eddard, as Ned was Lord but never King, and Robb is King. At this point, there was no succession crisis and Robb had already turned Winterfell over to Bran and very early in our story he seats him on the high seat of the Starks.

Although, Bran/Summer does have that thought about being prince of the green, prince of the wolfswood. Who then is the king of the green, king of the wolfswood?

[Direwolf Blitzer]

All this talk of direwolves and swords reminded me a passage in Dance. (Bran III)

 

Quote

"What will I know? ... What do the trees remember?"

"The secrets of the old gods... Truths the first men knew, forgotten now in Winterfell."

Forgetting is a big theme in the series. The Reeds serve to remind Bran as the wildlings serve to remind Jon as Quaithe serves to remind Dany. The Targaryens forgot how to hatch dragons; the Starks forgot their direwolves. Perhaps this information was intentionally suppressed by the maesters as well.

[Black Crow]

11 hours ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

The WWs are individual wargs trapped in corpses because it was the only body they were still strong enough to possess after their own death. I think I love it.

Ah no, they're not trapped in corpses at all. That's the point their bodies are made of ice and snow. ["The old enemy, demons made of snow and ice" - Stannis Baratheon] and GRRM explicitly declared in an interview that Ser Puddles turned into an icy shower of pixie dust when Sam pinked him because the dragonglass "broke the spell holding him together".

Hence my contention that the walkers are warg spirits riding the cold winds [GRRM has also likened them to the sidhe made of ice] until forming bodies from the ice crystals in the air.

[Brad Stark]

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I like the idea of a direwolf spirit down in the crypts!

I had suggested the idea of the Wall having a door that can be opened to allow magic into the world, and closed again to contain it - but once the door is closed it might take 150 years for magic to dwindle and dissipate. That is why the dragons got smaller and smaller until finally the eggs stopped hatching. There wasn't enough magic. Even the existence of dragons couldn't keep magic "alive". The same may be true for direwolves, although I myself don't view them as magical creatures. The opposite of dragons are white walkers, and direwolves still exist north of the Wall.

I'm thinking Ned wasn't convinced enough about his own historical past to ensure his immediate family had iron swords. If Lyanna was indeed a skinchanger it might explain why Theon also saw her. Her spirit is wandering around down in the crypts too.

Most direwolves are not magical creatures.   But we've speculated that the Stark warg powers originated from the wolves, not the children.   If so, these wolves are magical creatures.   And even if they aren't, it seems magic was involved sending them South.

Whatever ritual is involved burying the Starks, it may not be needed anymore and may not be practiced appropriately.   Either when magic left the world or some point earlier, the Starks stopped rising from the dead but the burial custom changed.   This is even more likely if the Starks themselves aren't the source of the magic, but the wolves are. 

[Melifeather]

45 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Ah no, they're not trapped in corpses at all. That's the point their bodies are made of ice and snow. ["The old enemy, demons made of snow and ice" - Stannis Baratheon] and GRRM explicitly declared in an interview that Ser Puddles turned into an icy shower of pixie dust when Sam pinked him because the dragonglass "broke the spell holding him together".

Hence my contention that the walkers are war spirits riding the cold winds [GRRM has also likened them to the sidhe made of ice] until forming bodies from the ice crystals in the air.

I think GRRM has inserted a few ideas into the story that represent the sidhe. The Irish sidhe are an ancient fairy race that live in mounds. In ASOIAF the Children are an ancient race too and while their underground cities could be the mounds, the story also has burrows or rather large mounded graves belonging to the First Men which hints at a human connection to go along with the Children and tie them altogether to white walkers.

In Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series he has bestowed some humans with special powers and calls them "Aes Sedai" which appears to be inspired of the Irish spelling for sidhe, "Aos Si" or "Aes Sídhe". The Aes Sedai of Jordan's books can "channel" which is equivalent to magic. Female Aes Sedai  channel by drawing on "saidar" while males draw on "saidin". Both are actually accessing the "One Power" which consists of the five elements of earth, water, air, fire, and spirit. IMO GRRM has drawn on Jordan's version of Aes Sedai to create his sidhe made of ice and connect them to a human source.

[Melifeather]

Speaking of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series again, I forgot to mention that his characters also play the Game of Houses aka Daes Dae'mar also "the Great Game". It involves the use of misdirection, hidden meanings and motives in word and deed, in order to gain power and status. Great value is placed on subtlety, to appear to be aiming at one thing while in actuality aiming at something else, and to achieve ends with the least visible effort. It was developed by Cairhienin nobility, adapted from Aes Sedai intrigue, and spread throughout the southern nations.

[alienarea]

25 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Most direwolves are not magical creatures.   But we've speculated that the Stark warg powers originated from the wolves, not the children.   If so, these wolves are magical creatures.   And even if they aren't, it seems magic was involved sending them South.

Whatever ritual is involved burying the Starks, it may not be needed anymore and may not be practiced appropriately.   Either when magic left the world or some point earlier, the Starks stopped rising from the dead but the burial custom changed.   This is even more likely if the Starks themselves aren't the source of the magic, but the wolves are. 

Interesting.

I can imagine this:

- magic is around, the Starks are powerful wargs, ritual is needed to prevent dead Starks from rising

- magic disappears, the direwolves, too

- at some point in time the ritual isn't executed properly anymore; maybe around Shewolves of Winterfell? Because magic is gone, no consequences yet

- magic returns (Summerhall or Red Comet?), and the dead Starks not properly warded rise as White Walkers

[Melifeather]

Another ASOIAF feature that seems to be inspired by Robert Jordan's Wheel are human connections to wolves and having wolf dreams. Two characters, Perrin Aybara and Elyas Machera are "wolf-brothers" and communicate telepathically with wolves. Wolf-brothers also have the ability to "dreamwalk" although they are not capable of entering into the dreams of other people. The place where everyone dreams is called Tel'aran'rhiod. Aes Sedai can enter Tel'aran'rhiod at will with the help of special rings and view other people's dreams as well as view rooms and details of actual occurrences. Any wolf-brother that goes to sleep and finds themselves in this dream-world call it a "wolf dream". Sometimes wolf-brothers lose their human identity while in Tel'aran'rhiod and dream as if they are a wolf and will sometimes see other wolves. 

[Black Crow]

12 hours ago, St Daga said:

Also, I wonder about Ned. His bones are not in the crypts, so where ever he is, would his spirit be free to roam? Arya has the experience with him in the Harrenhal godswood, a place Ned has probably been before. Bran and Rickon both dream of him in the crypts. Cersei see's him watching her when she has her walk of shame although Cersei also feels Lady and Sansa's presence. Now, Sansa isn't dead, but Lady is, and perhaps not warded. There are a few other hints that Ned's spirit might be roaming free, I think.

Not so sure - Lord Eddard never had a direwolf

[Black Crow]

12 hours ago, Direwolf Blitzer said:

 

Not only that, but if the Bael stories is true the Starks were extinguished in the male line long ago. I guess magic isn't carried on the Y chromosome! (Which would explain Brynden Rivers)

 

Oh absolutely. This is why I've been arguing for a long time that Bloodraven has been misinterpreted for a long time and that far from being a Targaryen loyalist he is really Bran Blackwood of Raventree Hall - and saw the Redgrass Field business as a continuation of the Blackwood-Bracken feud.

...and of course that's also why its more important that Jon Snow's mother is Lyanna Stark and that he is a son of Winterfell

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

On 6/18/2019 at 6:01 PM, St Daga said:

This idea just sort of blew my mind! Perhaps they did kill the direwolf companion, too. But why? Did they fear the Stark Lord/King and what they might do with a second life? And could this mean that both the human and direwolf bones lie in the crypts, and the iron sword wards them both? So, we know that several swords have been removed from the crypts, near the end of Clash, but the only one that should have a direwolf possibly laid with it would be the iron sword that belonged to an ancient king that Hodor claimed. Could this direwolf be the wolf that Jon saw in his dreams, when he was limping through the crypts with a crutch?  "A direwolf, grey and ghastly, spotted with blood, his golden eyes shining sadly through the dark". I really thought that was Grey Wind but now I am wondering if it means something else. I have questioned how Grey Wind could be in the crypts if his bones were at the Twins, and Lady's bones are not in the crypts, but buried in the lichyard, plus Jon notes this is a male wolf.

 

A great question. Theon tells us that there hasn't been a direwolf sighted south of the wall for 200 years, but is he correct? We hear nothing that leads us to think that Torrhen came to the Trident with a direwolf, so perhaps it was even longer in the past than the conquest? The statues of the direwolves might just have become a part of tradition, something that is added in the crypts without people really even knowing why they do it?

1. Theon is a ward at the time from the Iron Islands. He isn't near as good of a source as Eddard would be, who, for a 200 year span, isn't a great source either.

2. Starks up to Eddard's brother Brandon had a wolf statue with their own statue, but I don't know if we can use this as a timeline for when they stopped having direwolves. It may just be a tradition. Though I'd bet money that the tradition started from the Starks actually having direwolves that they warged and wolf statues because they too were buried in the crypts with the Stark.

3. I back the theory that the Boltons tradition of skinning their enemies is rooted in the Starks original warging abilities and that the Boltons would flay their enemies and wear their skins as an imitation of the Starks warging.

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

On 6/18/2019 at 11:42 PM, Black Crow said:

Its worth remembering how Bran notes how the appearance of the Stark lords changes over time with the older ones being harder and more heavily bearded than the more recent lords. 

He doesn't link this with the Conquest but it does raise an intriguing thought. If Theon reckons that there hasn't been a direwolf sighted south of the Wall in 200 years that suggests that they had been in decline for some time previous to that last sighting. Could their decline be connected with the arrival of the dragons?

1. I think Feather will like your post!

 

2. The reader can easily link the Karstarks, Bale the Bard and even the current Tully blood infusion with the change in the Starks appearance. Are you suggesting their appearance change may be because of the arrival of dragons and thus their loss of the ability to warg?

[alienarea]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Oh absolutely. This is why I've been arguing for a long time that Bloodraven has been misinterpreted for a long time and that far from being a Targaryen loyalist he is really Bran Blackwood of Raventree Hall - and saw the Redgrass Field business as a continuation of the Blackwood-Bracken feud.

...and of course that's also why its more important that Jon Snow's mother is Lyanna Stark and that he is a son of Winterfell

I have to disagree on this one. 

Bran, Arya and even Rickon have wolf dreams, and their mother is a Tully.

Warging abilities were originally passed through the male line or the Starks would have been practicing incest like the Targaryens for a long time.

 

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

15 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Ah no, they're not trapped in corpses at all. That's the point their bodies are made of ice and snow. ["The old enemy, demons made of snow and ice" - Stannis Baratheon] and GRRM explicitly declared in an interview that Ser Puddles turned into an icy shower of pixie dust when Sam pinked him because the dragonglass "broke the spell holding him together".

Hence my contention that the walkers are warg spirits riding the cold winds [GRRM has also likened them to the sidhe made of ice] until forming bodies from the ice crystals in the air.

That's awesome actually! But I had confused White Walkers with the regular wight zombies.

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

What is the importance of House Blackwood?

[Direwolf Blitzer]

20 hours ago, St Daga said:

What are you thinking, if they don't mean Robb? Like a mystical king of winter? Or a Night's King kind of vibe? I guess I just followed that all the North declared for Robb as KitN, even if they were not at Riverrun. Lord's son is Eddard, as Ned was Lord but never King, and Robb is King. At this point, there was no succession crisis and Robb had already turned Winterfell over to Bran and very early in our story he seats him on the high seat of the Starks.

Although, Bran/Summer does have that thought about being prince of the green, prince of the wolfswood. Who then is the king of the green, king of the wolfswood?

I figure 98% chance the explanation is the obvious one, 2% chance the Reeds are referencing the "real" Kings of Winter. As in, House Reed is sworn to the mythical, magical king, not any mere political entity. They remember things in the Neck, etc.

 

2 hours ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

What is the importance of House Blackwood?

I think the only thing we know about them is they keep the old gods, and Bloodraven is Blackwood on his mother's side.

[St Daga]

20 hours ago, Direwolf Blitzer said:

Quote

"What will I know? ... What do the trees remember?"

"The secrets of the old gods... Truths the first men knew, forgotten now in Winterfell."

Forgetting is a big theme in the series. The Reeds serve to remind Bran as the wildlings serve to remind Jon as Quaithe serves to remind Dany. The Targaryens forgot how to hatch dragons; the Starks forgot their direwolves. Perhaps this information was intentionally suppressed by the maesters as well.

Suppressed or forgotten, what ever the intent, it's still lacking for our characters in the story. Much like "Winter is coming" is something the Stark's say, but they probably don't have any clue what it means any more. And this probably goes for multiple houses, especially the very old houses. You make a good case for multiple people needing to be reminded or retaught things that they need to know, that will be important to them. The Night' Watch vows might be another good example of this. We say it because we are taught to say it, but we don't really know what it means or why we said it in the first place.

 

18 hours ago, alienarea said:

Interesting.

I can imagine this:

- magic is around, the Starks are powerful wargs, ritual is needed to prevent dead Starks from rising

- magic disappears, the direwolves, too

- at some point in time the ritual isn't executed properly anymore; maybe around Shewolves of Winterfell? Because magic is gone, no consequences yet

- magic returns (Summerhall or Red Comet?), and the dead Starks not properly warded rise as White Walkers

I think the highlighted is a very interesting concept. But we do know that at least Ned's father and brother were buried with swords, and Ned's statue himself had one, so it seems this is part of tradition. The fact that those swords are gone might allow those Stark's to rise. And perhaps Lyanna, who also has a statue in the crypts, perhaps has been able to rise and walk for some time. But maybe there is another part of a ritual that has been forgotten. Something to do with runes of the First Men?

I was also wondering last night more about iron and how it might work as a ward, and I was thinking back on the original crown of the Kings of Winter. It was said to be iron and bronze. A circlet of hammered bronze with runes (are the runes important?) with nine black spikes like swords on the crown. Interesting that the Kings of Winter/Kings in the North wore this in life. So, does iron only ward you in death? Or did it do something to them in life as well? 

 

8 hours ago, Black Crow said:

21 hours ago, St Daga said:

Also, I wonder about Ned. His bones are not in the crypts, so where ever he is, would his spirit be free to roam? Arya has the experience with him in the Harrenhal godswood, a place Ned has probably been before. Bran and Rickon both dream of him in the crypts. Cersei see's him watching her when she has her walk of shame although Cersei also feels Lady and Sansa's presence. Now, Sansa isn't dead, but Lady is, and perhaps not warded. There are a few other hints that Ned's spirit might be roaming free, I think.

Not so sure - Lord Eddard never had a direwolf

If being a skinchanger is part of your genetic makeup, and lets say for arguments sake that since Ned's children seem to have this gene, that he must have it too, even if it's dormant or recessive, could it still be expressed in death? Because it seems like we do have hints of Ned's spirit, either in the weirnet or the crypts. Even if all souls go to the weirnet on death, there is no reason to think they go to the Stark crypts, unless something draws them their like a magnet. And both Rickon and Bran dreamed of Ned in the crypts at his death. Maybe the fact that Ned's spirit never bonded with a direwolf makes him even more likely to roam because he does not have an anchor (a familiar animal). Ned would not have a statue to try to connect to either at this point, because it's only at the end of this chapter that Luwin says they need to have one carved.

A little tinfoil, but if you are a Stark with skinchanger in your blood but you don't have a direwolf, do you find another animal to bond with. Brandon and Lyanna have hits about horses in their story, and Ned has a horse he rides in King Landing that he refer's to as his "favorite" horse. Why is it his favorite? That always stood out to me. It was the horse that he was riding when he meets Gendry.  What happened to that horse?

 

 

[St Daga]

7 hours ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

1. Theon is a ward at the time from the Iron Islands. He isn't near as good of a source as Eddard would be, who, for a 200 year span, isn't a great source either.

2. Starks up to Eddard's brother Brandon had a wolf statue with their own statue, but I don't know if we can use this as a timeline for when they stopped having direwolves. It may just be a tradition. Though I'd bet money that the tradition started from the Starks actually having direwolves that they warged and wolf statues because they too were buried in the crypts with the Stark.

3. I back the theory that the Boltons tradition of skinning their enemies is rooted in the Starks original warging abilities and that the Boltons would flay their enemies and wear their skins as an imitation of the Starks warging.

1) I don't know where Theon get's his knowledge from but he has spent 9 years, formative years, in the north, being raised at Winterfell. And no one in the group disputes this 200 year timeline, so I would say it's common knowledge. It might not be correct, but it's what everyone else seems to believe in that party that finds the direwolves.

2) I think the statues (of the Lords and their wolves) are just tradition at this point, just like the swords. At some point, people are just including direwolves and iron swords because that is what has always been done, I think if direwolf bones lie in the crypts, then it's with the much older Stark's. After all, if there was a recent tradition of burying direwolves in the crypts, then Lady could have been laid to rest in a place where Sansa might be intended to be buried. Ned thinks that there is a place in the crypts for him and his children, so Sansa's wolf could go in her spot. But Lady ends up buried in the lichyard instead.

3) This makes sense and I would have to agree. It makes me wonder what Roose did with Grey Wind's and Robb's hides. Is he wearing them both? One openly, one not so openly?

 

6 hours ago, alienarea said:

Bran, Arya and even Rickon have wolf dreams, and their mother is a Tully.

Warging abilities were originally passed through the male line or the Starks would have been practicing incest like the Targaryens for a long time.

I think both sides are important in the skinchanger genetics. That is why even though Varamyr had the gift, he never had a child with the gift, because he never found a mother who also carried the gift. So, something in Ned's children with Cat, and whom even we want to think of as being Jon's parents,  it's important from both sides, the genetics have to come from both parents. And it makes sense that the Tully's carry some kind of a gene, because we see hints of this in Sweetrobin, and no one disputes that Lysa is his mother. It takes two (sides) to tango!

We also know that when the Stark's defeated ancient enemies, they married the daughters of that line. Hinting that they are drawing that genetic line into their own. We hear of this with the Warg King and the Marsh King. So, in this case, the mother's line is certainly important. I don't see how both sides are not important in becoming a skinchanger. And we know very little about the ancient Stark's and they might have been practicing incest, although it would have been known only to the north. When Aegon came, he changed everything in Westeros. Perhaps he changed the Stark genetics, too. Those son's of Torrhen Stark were upset for some reason that their sister was to marry into House Arryn. To whom was she supposed to marry before that happened? Maybe the time of the direwolf warg did end with Aegon's Conquest? And it came back with the defeat of the Targaryen kingship?

 

1 hour ago, Direwolf Blitzer said:

I figure 98% chance the explanation is the obvious one, 2% chance the Reeds are referencing the "real" Kings of Winter. As in, House Reed is sworn to the mythical, magical king, not any mere political entity. They remember things in the Neck, etc.

If Bran is the heir to the "real" king of Winter, what makes him different than Robb? Robb is older than Bran, but if they are full siblings, and Robb is still alive at this point, how is Bran heir to the KoW and Robb is not? Are you speculating that Robb and Bran are not full siblings? As much as I like a deeper meaning, before this pledge that Jojen and Meera make, Meera says it's been thousands of years since her people first swore fealty to the King in the North. So, it seems like House Reed joined the party after the Stark's were not called the Kings of Winter anymore, but were known as the Kings in the North. I suppose there could be more than one meaning for King of Winter, like a historical meaning as well as a deeper, more mythos bound reason. Or Meera could have just made a mistake when she says KitN, instead of KoW?