Heresy 223 and where we go from here

[Melifeather]

31 minutes ago, St Daga said:

I was also wondering last night more about iron and how it might work as a ward, and I was thinking back on the original crown of the Kings of Winter. It was said to be iron and bronze. A circlet of hammered bronze with runes (are the runes important?) with nine black spikes like swords on the crown. Interesting that the Kings of Winter/Kings in the North wore this in life. So, does iron only ward you in death? Or did it do something to them in life as well? 

My thoughts about that crown are that it shows a conqueror that used iron to defeat an enemy that used bronze. I believe the Starks were not the original family of Winterfell. I think Winterfell once belonged to one of the wildlings tribes, because the wildings are the defeated "others". The wildlings are descendants of First Men that practiced magic and blood sacrifice, and a long time ago were related to the "bastard" that defeated them and took their castle.

31 minutes ago, St Daga said:

A little tinfoil, but if you are a Stark with skinchanger in your blood but you don't have a direwolf, do you find another animal to bond with. Brandon and Lyanna have hits about horses in their story, and Ned has a horse he rides in King Landing that he refer's to as his "favorite" horse. Why is it his favorite? That always stood out to me. It was the horse that he was riding when he meets Gendry.  What happened to that horse?

I agree that the Starks carry the ability to skinchange, and if there's no direwolf to bond to they could potentially bond with a different animal, but the savage direwolf nature would be missing from their personality. 

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

2 hours ago, St Daga said:

I was also wondering last night more about iron and how it might work as a ward, and I was thinking back on the original crown of the Kings of Winter. It was said to be iron and bronze. A circlet of hammered bronze with runes (are the runes important?) with nine black spikes like swords on the crown. Interesting that the Kings of Winter/Kings in the North wore this in life. So, does iron only ward you in death? Or did it do something to them in life as well? 

My thoughts about that crown are that it shows a conqueror that used iron to defeat an enemy that used bronze. I believe the Starks were not the original family of Winterfell. I think Winterfell once belonged to one of the wildlings tribes, because the wildings are the defeated "others". The wildlings are descendants of First Men that practiced magic and blood sacrifice, and a long time ago were related to the "bastard" that defeated them and took their castle.

I understand your theory, but I am not sure how it applies to the crown. Why wear something that you subjugated? And why nine iron swords in that case, if the swords indicate the victor? It seems like if nine weaker foes fell, and they are represented by the bronze, then the nine should be represented in bronze, not iron. However, I do think the circle of nine weirwoods where Jon takes his vows north of the wall might have something to do with the nine swords of iron on the crown. Does iron affect a weirwood? I have also suspected that those nine tree's might represent nine other tree's, like a bridge or gate, but again, why nine in iron swords?

Perhaps the Stark's did replace some family that was at Winterfell before, a family that was affected by iron, but why wear nine iron swords on their crown. Unless iron was responsible for the death of the first bodies laid in the crypts, and the victor then adopted this burial tradition for themselves. But why do that? Perhaps the first iron swords were never a ward, but laid on the graves of the slain as a sign of who conquered them? So the first crypt swords would indicate defeat while the rest would indicate victory? And where does the idea of a ward come from? Unless the first Stark's killed the men, laid iron on their graves, to indicate defeat AND serve as a ward, and took the daughters of the defeated to wife, meaning that their own heirs of these women would carry a gene that might need to be warded? 

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I agree that the Starks carry the ability to skinchange, and if there's no direwolf to bond to they could potentially bond with a different animal, but the savage direwolf nature would be missing from their personality. 

Haggon explained how "nature" comes from the animal the skinchanger bonds with sure enough but I think we're going to learn that its not just the savagery [as Jon demonstrates] but what makes the Starks unique is the ability to fly free, and I'm suggesting that they get that from their direwolves

[Black Crow]

7 hours ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

What is the importance of House Blackwood?

As Blitzer says we know very little about them other than maintaining a Hatfield/McCoy feud for time out of mind, but there are two significant bits:

Bloodraven equates his own name Brynden with Brandon, ie; its the same name just a different spelling. He tells Bran he was given the name by his mother, who was soon after displaced as the King's mistress so its likely that he was in his early years brought up by her at home - Raventree Hall.

Bran as in our Bran and Bran the Blessed - Bendigeidfran means crow or raven and in addition Bran Blackwood is of course also known as Bloodraven.

Are we picking up the theme here - Bran Blackwood wargs crows and ravens

[alienarea]

4 hours ago, St Daga said:

 

On 6/19/2019 at 8:06 PM, Direwolf Blitzer said:

Quote

"What will I know? ... What do the trees remember?"

"The secrets of the old gods... Truths the first men knew, forgotten now in Winterfell."

Forgetting is a big theme in the series. The Reeds serve to remind Bran as the wildlings serve to remind Jon as Quaithe serves to remind Dany. The Targaryens forgot how to hatch dragons; the Starks forgot their direwolves. Perhaps this information was intentionally suppressed by the maesters as well.

Suppressed or forgotten, what ever the intent, it's still lacking for our characters in the story. Much like "Winter is coming" is something the Stark's say, but they probably don't have any clue what it means any more. And this probably goes for multiple houses, especially the very old houses. You make a good case for multiple people needing to be reminded or retaught things that they need to know, that will be important to them. The Night' Watch vows might be another good example of this. We say it because we are taught to say it, but we don't really know what it means or why we said it in the first place.

 

On 6/19/2019 at 9:53 PM, alienarea said:

Interesting.

I can imagine this:

- magic is around, the Starks are powerful wargs, ritual is needed to prevent dead Starks from rising

- magic disappears, the direwolves, too

- at some point in time the ritual isn't executed properly anymore; maybe around Shewolves of Winterfell? Because magic is gone, no consequences yet

- magic returns (Summerhall or Red Comet?), and the dead Starks not properly warded rise as White Walkers

I think the highlighted is a very interesting concept. But we do know that at least Ned's father and brother were buried with swords, and Ned's statue himself had one, so it seems this is part of tradition. The fact that those swords are gone might allow those Stark's to rise. And perhaps Lyanna, who also has a statue in the crypts, perhaps has been able to rise and walk for some time. But maybe there is another part of a ritual that has been forgotten. Something to do with runes of the First Men?

I was also wondering last night more about iron and how it might work as a ward, and I was thinking back on the original crown of the Kings of Winter. It was said to be iron and bronze. A circlet of hammered bronze with runes (are the runes important?) with nine black spikes like swords on the crown. Interesting that the Kings of Winter/Kings in the North wore this in life. So, does iron only ward you in death? Or did it do something to them in life as well? 

 

Is there a connection between the iron and bronze in the crown of the Kings of Winter to the second line in the Reed children's oath?

Meera swears by iron and bronze - to the Kings of Winter?

Jorjen swears by water and earth - to an unknown Queen of Summer (Demeter, or ... Donna  )

Together the swear to ice and fire.

[Brad Stark]

I assumed the Stark connection to direwolves started with the Warg King.  If Bael the Bard came before, it doesn't matter.   

I don't think an unbroken male line is important, Jon is proof against that unless he had a Stark father. 

I don't think this is a genetic gift.  Rather something like a promise made by the Children to give the Warg King's descendants direwolves.  I think the ability originates in the wolves to bond the humans.  The Starks may have greenseer blood and may compliment or enhance this, but I think the wolves could have bonded any children. 

Again, we need to ask what really happened in the first chapter.   Maybe the Others sent the wolves, which explains Gerad's presence.   Or maybe Bloodraven sent the wolves and the Others sent Gared to stop the wolves, and Gared got picked up before he could kill the cubs too.  Or maybe Gared is working for Bloodraven and not the Others because Bloodraven saved Gared's life before the Others took him.

[Melifeather]

4 hours ago, St Daga said:

I understand your theory, but I am not sure how it applies to the crown. Why wear something that you subjugated? And why nine iron swords in that case, if the swords indicate the victor? It seems like if nine weaker foes fell, and they are represented by the bronze, then the nine should be represented in bronze, not iron. However, I do think the circle of nine weirwoods where Jon takes his vows north of the wall might have something to do with the nine swords of iron on the crown. Does iron affect a weirwood? I have also suspected that those nine tree's might represent nine other tree's, like a bridge or gate, but again, why nine in iron swords?

Perhaps the Stark's did replace some family that was at Winterfell before, a family that was affected by iron, but why wear nine iron swords on their crown. Unless iron was responsible for the death of the first bodies laid in the crypts, and the victor then adopted this burial tradition for themselves. But why do that? Perhaps the first iron swords were never a ward, but laid on the graves of the slain as a sign of who conquered them? So the first crypt swords would indicate defeat while the rest would indicate victory? And where does the idea of a ward come from? Unless the first Stark's killed the men, laid iron on their graves, to indicate defeat AND serve as a ward, and took the daughters of the defeated to wife, meaning that their own heirs of these women would carry a gene that might need to be warded? 

I never said the defeated were nine in number. The defeated foe is symbolically represented by the bronze circlet. The victor is represented by nine iron swords. The very name Winter-fell indicates they defeated winter or at least a foe who uses ice magic during winter such as the wildlings that know how to create white walkers. The Starks overthrew a family that practiced magic, thus the iron defeated them, and the crown is symbolic of this victory. However, since Bael travelled over the Wall to impregnate a Stark daughter, the magical gene was grafted into the Stark family and it's been in their genes ever since.

[Brad Stark]

We talked about the name 'winter fell' before.   Fell can either mean 'here is where winter was defeated' or 'here is where winter started'

[Black Crow]

It can also quite simply mean Winter Hill

[Black Crow]

20 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Again, we need to ask what really happened in the first chapter.   Maybe the Others sent the wolves, which explains Gerad's presence.   Or maybe Bloodraven sent the wolves and the Others sent Gared to stop the wolves, and Gared got picked up before he could kill the cubs too.  Or maybe Gared is working for Bloodraven and not the Others because Bloodraven saved Gared's life before the Others took him.

We've discussed this one before, but just to recap. Gared turns up near enough to Winterfell to justify the Lord Stark riding out in person with his sons, to deal with him on the spot and then return home again for tea and crumpets once finished. Immediately there is a mystery as to how Gared got there at all, having last been seen in close proximity to a rather lethal pack [I use the term advisedly] of the blue-eyed Sidhe. On the very same day that the Lord Stark and his sons return from Gared's execution they encounter and his children each become bonded to a direwolf pup, not only corresponding in number and sex to themselves, but corresponding in number to the pack of blue-eyed Sidhe who scragged Ser Waymar and Will-up-the-tree.

Was Bran Blackwood involved? Don't know. Was Gared involved - it certainly looks like he may have known more than we've been told

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

It can also quite simply mean Winter Hill

But is Winterfell on a hill?

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

But is Winterfell on a hill?

It’s built into a hill. 

Quote

It taught him Winterfell's secrets too. The builders had not even leveled the earth; there were hills and valleys behind the walls of Winterfell. There was a covered bridge that went from the fourth floor of the bell tower across to the second floor of the rookery. Bran knew about that. And he knew you could get inside the inner wall by the south gate, climb three floors and run all the way around Winterfell through a narrow tunnel in the stone, and then come out on ground level at the north gate, with a hundred feet of wall looming over you. Even Maester Luwin didn't know that, Bran was convinced.

 

[Direwolf Blitzer]

8 hours ago, Black Crow said:

It can also quite simply mean Winter Hill

Whoa.

You know who came from Winter Hill? Irish-American mobster Whitey [White Walker?] Bulger. 

If the Others start running drugs into South Boston, we'll know what's up.

[Black Crow]

Ah the central mystery explained. Now we know what the black gate was really used for 

[St Daga]

On 6/20/2019 at 2:17 PM, alienarea said:

Is there a connection between the iron and bronze in the crown of the Kings of Winter to the second line in the Reed children's oath?

Meera swears by iron and bronze - to the Kings of Winter?

Jorjen swears by water and earth - to an unknown Queen of Summer (Demeter, or ... Donna  )

Together the swear to ice and fire.

This could be how we should look at it. A combination of fire and ice, with elements of both winter and summer. But this pledge is to Bran, so is he himself a combination of winter and summer? He certainly has the Summer connection with his direwolf, yet he sits in the seat of the Kings of Winter. So, what about Bran Stark makes him a combination of winter and summer?

 

On 6/20/2019 at 4:26 PM, Feather Crystal said:

I never said the defeated were nine in number. The defeated foe is symbolically represented by the bronze circlet. The victor is represented by nine iron swords. The very name Winter-fell indicates they defeated winter or at least a foe who uses ice magic during winter such as the wildlings that know how to create white walkers. The Starks overthrew a family that practiced magic, thus the iron defeated them, and the crown is symbolic of this victory. However, since Bael travelled over the Wall to impregnate a Stark daughter, the magical gene was grafted into the Stark family and it's been in their genes ever since.

Sorry, I never meant to imply you did. I was just working out different options for bronze and iron beyond what your theory includes. Kind of a "thinking out loud" that all comes pouring out from my fingertips in a rush! I understand your idea but the bronze and iron seems more of a combination to me, a purposeful melding of metals. Not one expressed over the other, but combined to form something bigger. Although, if the crown has something to do with victorious men/warriors (represented by iron) marrying women who are perhaps the survivor's of a family or clan (represented by bronze) then it does seem like there is a precedent that we have been shown before in the Stark's marrying their defeated enemies women folk and combining the houses. 

And I see this discussion about Winterfell and hills continued on later and I think that is more in line with my ideas on the name of Winterfell. I am not sold on the idea that Winter-fell means that winter was defeated by the Stark's or that it happened at Winterfell. For a long time, I have felt like fell means fjell, which is a high hill or mountain, and that high mountain or hill was the hill of Winter. Probably a place that people sought in the winter to survive. Warm geothermal heat and caverns under the ground, protected by this hill of Winter. The man who controlled such an important spot might be called Winter King.  I think this works with the idea of the Barrow Kings being the kings that controlled the Great Barrow and the Marsh Kings being the kings who controlled marsh lands. Although many interpretations fit and mine might be wrong.

I tried to keep up on the discussion over the last couple days, but my computer has taken a nose dive and only revived today, as if I had Thoros breath some fire into it! 

 

[Black Crow]

25 minutes ago, St Daga said:

This could be how we should look at it. A combination of fire and ice, with elements of both winter and summer. But this pledge is to Bran, so is he himself a combination of winter and summer? He certainly has the Summer connection with his direwolf, yet he sits in the seat of the Kings of Winter. So, what about Bran Stark makes him a combination of winter and summer?

What we have discussed in the past, and what I myself believe, is that this was the original oath that sealed the Pact:

One swears by earth and water - the natural world

One swears by bronze and Iron - the realms of men

Both together swear together by Ice and Fire - a conjoining of opposites because the land is one.

[Melifeather]

22 hours ago, Black Crow said:

What we have discussed in the past, and what I myself believe, is that this was the original oath that sealed the Pact:

One swears by earth and water - the natural world

One swears by bronze and Iron - the realms of men

Both together swear together by Ice and Fire - a conjoining of opposites because the land is one.

I agree. Two sides to every coin. There is no big bad monster in ASOIAF. The only evil is what man has done to each other. Even the Children have realized that their acts of preservation have not just hindered mankind - they've hurt themselves too.

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

GRRM from last May, facing pressure from his publishers to split The Winds of Winter:

https://www.newsweek.com/winds-winter-release-date-update-news-george-rr-martin-grrm-chapters-targaryen-907578

 

I had PM'd this to a member and it was brought to my attention that maybe others had missed this news as well! I for one, think it pretty important!

[Brad Stark]

I saw this before.   It really isn't news.  The publisher will likely sell as many books for the same price if it is half of Winds or the whole thing.   And if it is half, it costs less to publish and they can do it again.   If GRRM posted that he was seriously considering splitting Winds, that would be news.

I'd rather see more short books published more often.  When I got Dance, I was so excited I read it quickly to find out what happens and missed most of what he wrote until the second time through. 

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

I saw this before.   It really isn't news.  The publisher will likely sell as many books for the same price if it is half of Winds or the whole thing.   And if it is half, it costs less to publish and they can do it again.   If GRRM posted that he was seriously considering splitting Winds, that would be news.

I'd rather see more short books published more often.  When I got Dance, I was so excited I read it quickly to find out what happens and missed most of what he wrote until the second time through. 

My take from it is that as of 1 year ago George likely already had 2000+ (maybe 2500+) manuscript pages for TWOW. It makes me optimistic that when TWOW releases (George swears within a year, his 1st guarantee for Winds) that Book 7 will be out within a year or two after. Since he could have at least 50% of it already when he cuts it off to deliver Winds. Also I agree, I'd be happier with shorter books faster. The problem seems to be that he is closing in on doubling his predicted 1500 MS pages, but instead of releasing the 1st 1500 and then finishing the rest as Book 7, he is trying to shrink it down to 1500. Which is weird because he could have had a book called The Winds of Winter out before Mummer's season 8, even if it didn't make it to whatever the dragon dance plot (slips from Book 5 to Book 7!) is supposed to be.