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Dothraki Khal

Fair Compensation for House Frey

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On 6/12/2019 at 9:15 AM, Hugorfonics said:

Suspects wanted in question for attempted murder get arrested all the time. Its not kidnapping if its done on behalf of the state, its policing

Agree. Hoster is lord paramount in RL where Tyrion is arrested. He would have backed Cat just as the Hand of the king did.

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2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

The fact that the vast majority of the men at arms at the inn did what Cat told them to do supports the notion that what she was acting within her “rights” as Lady of Wintefell, wife of the Hand, daughter of the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands. If the men had felt there was anything off in the request they wouldn’t have done it, especially considering it was a woman giving the order.  

Keep in mind that she said that she was arresting him in the name of the King. They probably thought she had royal authority. Of course, neither the Hand not the King gave any order.

1 hour ago, Impbread said:

If he had killed Bran in front of the entire realm Robert would not have called it an abduction. Ice would be taking the Imps head.

The king can call it whatever he likes. 

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1 hour ago, Impbread said:

Agree. Hoster is lord paramount in RL where Tyrion is arrested. He would have backed Cat just as the Hand of the king did.

"Would". Maybe after what happened he would, to protect his daughter but I doubt any lord would be stupid enough to abudct the Queen's brother

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5 hours ago, Impbread said:

Cats father was the lord paramount of the Riverlands. I would say she has his permission. She arrested him in the RL. Totally legal.

But she didn't. She never asked his permission, we know that for a fact. Do you think Hoster, if asked, would have said yes? Come on, Hoster's not an idiot.

Cat herself would not have done it if she had time to think about the consequences of kidnapping the King's brother-in-law and the son of the most powerful Lord in the Realm.

The reader is not expected to see Cat's decision as right, it was wrong. The king points that out, Ned's lie points that out and the Jeor Mormont's, ally of the Starks, reaction all points this out. There is not a single source in the books that supports Cat's decision.

 

Tyrion was not a fugitive, he was heading to Kings Landing. Her actions were bizarre.

 

3 hours ago, Impbread said:

There is no quote. I am just inferring that Hoster would back her play just as Ned did.

Ned did not back her play. He lied to the King and said he ordered it, that is not backing her play. That is taking the blame for his wife's obvious mistake.

If Ned thought she was in the right he would not have needed to lie. If he thought she right he would have ordered the Imp's arrest and Cat would never be in that positon to begin with.

 

4 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

The fact that the vast majority of the men at arms at the inn did what Cat told them to do supports the notion that what she was acting within her “rights” as Lady of Wintefell, wife of the Hand, daughter of the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands. If the men had felt there was anything off in the request they wouldn’t have done it, especially considering it was a woman giving the order.  

lol no it does not. Have you learnt nothing from the series? Those men were peasants and she was using her name and her connections to their lords to make them do her bidding.  They were trusting that she was right, them obeying her is not evidence that she was right.

It is the very definition of being between a rock and a hard place.

 

12 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

And yet all the retainers in the Inn answer her call.  She accuses him of attempted murder and they all respond to that.  They must know something you don't.

Yes, they know their place in the hierarchy. The smallfolk are constantly fucked over by the nobility, when a Lord decides to break the law and rebel his vassals have little choice, its either break the law and anger their king or refuse and have the Lord punish them.

Hoster Goodbrook burned down an entire village, killing every inhabitant, who refused to do as he said when he rebelled against the Crown. Obviously the smallfolk obey.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Impbread said:

Agree. Hoster is lord paramount in RL where Tyrion is arrested. He would have backed Cat just as the Hand of the king did.

No, he probably would not. Had he been in the Inn and had a chance to have his say he would have told Cat to be quiet.  Like he did Brandon when the 'gallant fool' rode off to Kings Landing.

Hoster would have known better than to start a war over something so idiotic given that Tyrion was heading to Kings Landing.

You are confusing Cat's husband or father supporting her idiocy with them actually making the same choice themselves. They would not.  Robert is aware of this. Cat never had any authority to do what she did.

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It may be a question of judgment and responsible choice.  A person with good, sound judgment would not have done what Catelyn did.  She knew how the Lannisters would take it.  Just look what the Starks did when they thought one of their had been taken.  Brandon entered the Red Keep and threatened to kill his king's family.  Surely she would know the Lannisters would do the same and probably worse because of Tywin.  The truth is, Catelyn and the Starks put the lives of hundreds of thousands of people in jeopardy just so they can put Tyrion on trial.  And what a mockery of a trial that was.  

Walder and the Freys had nothing to do with this feud.  Which Robb made worse by forcing Walder to make a choice.  Side with a rebel or remain loyal to the king.  

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A little song, a little dance.  Robb Stark's head on a lance.

On 6/10/2019 at 4:59 AM, Br16 said:

Moreover, the Frey's were Vassal lords not sell swords. They aren't supposed to bargain like Bronn. The price of the title is that they must honor their oaths.

They need to honor their oaths to the king.  The king has more authority than Hoster Tully.  The Starks failed to prove Joffrey's bastardry.

 

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16 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Hoster Goodbrook burned down an entire village, killing every inhabitant, who refused to do as he said when he rebelled against the Crown. Obviously the smallfolk obey.

Hoster Tully burned down Lord Goodbrook's village and killed his people.  Lord Goodbrook was on the side of right because he remained loyal to their king.  Hoster was a rebel.  The Red Wedding paid the Tullys back what they deserved.  Edmure and the Tullys lost their lands after they were attainted.  It is payback for what they did to Aerys and his family.  

I can sympathize with Lord Goodbrook and can understand why he participated in the Red Wedding.  

 

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Frey's compensation is laid out by Tywin Lannister and Frey accepted it. Lannister had previously made agreement with Roose Bolton setting out Frey compensation,. The reality is that Bolton and Baelish are the power and Frey is in effect vassal holding three  castles. Shucks Frey's compensation makes him less of an influence what with the Spicers and the Westerlings taking profitable castles on easily fordable forks. Frey had to agree to Bolton marrying the Frey daughter of his choice thereby guaranteeing Bolton a profitable marriage at the cost of Walder Frey. 

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1 hour ago, Gerg Sknab said:

Frey's compensation is laid out by Tywin Lannister and Frey accepted it. Lannister had previously made agreement with Roose Bolton setting out Frey compensation,. The reality is that Bolton and Baelish are the power and Frey is in effect vassal holding three  castles. Shucks Frey's compensation makes him less of an influence what with the Spicers and the Westerlings taking profitable castles on easily fordable forks. Frey had to agree to Bolton marrying the Frey daughter of his choice thereby guaranteeing Bolton a profitable marriage at the cost of Walder Frey. 

Eh?

They were given the sunken Reynes castle. Unless they have the money to fix it, all they've done is acquired something of a white elephant. A castle that they'll never have the wealth to renovate.

Roose's compensation was vengeance. Similar to Robb's desire against Joffrey.

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23 hours ago, The Hoare said:

"Would". Maybe after what happened he would, to protect his daughter but I doubt any lord would be stupid enough to abudct the Queen's brother

He would def. back his daughters play. Their words are Family,duty honor. 

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, he probably would not. Had he been in the Inn and had a chance to have his say he would have told Cat to be quiet.  Like he did Brandon when the 'gallant fool' rode off to Kings Landing.

Hoster would have known better than to start a war over something so idiotic given that Tyrion was heading to Kings Landing.

You are confusing Cat's husband or father supporting her idiocy with them actually making the same choice themselves. They would not.  Robert is aware of this. Cat never had any authority to do what she did.

I’m not confusing anything. They might not have arrested Tyrion but they would back Cats play. Ned did so by saying he ordered the arrest. Robert just didn’t want to deal wi5h it, or anything for that matter except for booze and whores. Oh yeah and tournaments. 

 

Hoster would back her their words are ‘Family,duty,honor’. She genuinely thought Tyrion tried to have her son killed. Wrongly but that is what she thought. He had to answer for that. I think it was stupid but family backs family.

Edited by Impbread

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Impbread said:

He would def. back his daughters play. Their words are Family,duty honor. 

And that's exactly why he would no allow the Imp's abduction. He would know well that Tywin would not take it kindly.

Why risk the wellbeing of your family for nothing?

Edited by The Hoare
misspeling

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Just now, The Hoare said:

And that's exactly why he would no allow the Imp's abduction. He would know fully well that Tywin would not take it kindly.

Why risk the wellbeing of your family for nothing?

I think we are getting sidetracked. I don’t want to derail the OP. I think marrying Edmure and maybe some land would be fair compensation. After the red wedding I think they should be compensated with nooses.

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2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Eh?

They were given the sunken Reynes castle. Unless they have the money to fix it, all they've done is acquired something of a white elephant. A castle that they'll never have the wealth to renovate.

Roose's compensation was vengeance. Similar to Robb's desire against Joffrey.

Not only the castle, but also the lands that come with it. The Reynes were not wealthy because they had a nice castle, but because their lands were filled with gold and silver. Besides, even if they never had the wealth to rebuild it, the lordship would grant them more prestige.

Why would Roose want vengeance agains't Robb?

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2 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

Not only the castle, but also the lands that come with it. The Reynes were not wealthy because they had a nice castle, but because their lands were filled with gold and silver. Besides, even if they never had the wealth to rebuild it, the lordship would grant them more prestige.

I'm not sure that is true. Each time Harrenhal was given away the lands seem to be reduced with its other lands given away.

House Reyne was the most powerful vassal in the Westerlands, his vassals still existed, they will have been sworn to other Houses rather than remain independent, Most likely the Presters and Marbrands, Tywin's cousins and allies  in that war, will have picked up extra lands as a reward.

I very much doubt the Spicers are the second most powerful House in the Westerlands.

2 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

Why would Roose want vengeance agains't Robb?

D'oh. Meant Walder.

 

25 minutes ago, Impbread said:

I’m not confusing anything.

You are a little bit. You are confusing Ned sticking up for his wife with him making the same decision in her place, he clearly would not otherwise he would have already ordered Tyrion's arrest.

25 minutes ago, Impbread said:

 

They might not have arrested Tyrion but they would back Cats play.

Why didn't they? Ned was the Hand, it was in his power to order Tyrion's arrest as soon as Cat told him her suspicions. He did not.

More importantly, he lied to the King about it. He clearly did not think Cat was in the right, and nor did the King himself.

25 minutes ago, Impbread said:

Ned did so by saying he ordered the arrest.

You mean when he lied. Why would be need to lie to the king if what Cat did was allowed?

You are confusing a husband trying to protect his wife and take the blame for her mistake with him supporting the indecent.

 

25 minutes ago, Impbread said:

Robert just didn’t want to deal wi5h it,

Robert did deal with it, he ordered the Imp released. Just because he dealt with it in a way that supports my argument and refutes yours does not mean he did not deal with it.

 

25 minutes ago, Impbread said:

Hoster would back her their words are ‘Family,duty,honor’.

Right, how does that make it legal?

Hoster would probably rebel for his daughter as well, that does not make it legal. You are clearly missing the point here. We are talking about the legality of the situation, Cat was not in the right.

Perhaps if she had got her father's permission to do so she would have a case, she did not. Lying about having her father's permission does not make it any more legal.

Hoster was not there, this topic would not exist if Hoster was there as Robert would not bring up Cat.

25 minutes ago, Impbread said:

 

She genuinely thought Tyrion tried to have her son killed. Wrongly but that is what she thought. He had to answer for that. I think it was stupid but family backs family.

And?

You are missing the point. The argument is not "Could Hoster have arrested Tyrion in the Riverlands" as he could. The same goes for "Could Ned have arrested Tyrion". Both men could, Cat could not, that is why it was an abduction.

Trying to change the question completely misses the point. What if I retort "what if Tyrion is the King". We are talking about an event that happened, in the event that happened Cat was in the wrong, she broke the King's peace.  

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6 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

I very much doubt the Spicers are the second most powerful House in the Westerlands.

You're right. But it still grants a prestige that didn't had before

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

They need to honor their oaths to the king.  The king has more authority than Hoster Tully.  The Starks failed to prove Joffrey's bastardry.

 

You mistake what I was saying. I said in my post that the Frey's ought to either sincerely honor their oaths to their Liege or to the King based on a sincere assessment of the two arguments. His obvious disrespect and disregard for both, and opportunistic double dealing is the sellswordish behavior I was referring to. 

Edited by Br16

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On 6/18/2019 at 4:36 PM, The Hoare said:

Robert is the king. If he says it was a abudction, then it was a abudction. It would be even if Tyrion had killed Bran in front of the entire realm.

Robert is the law.

That worked really well for Aerys Targaryen.

What you are really saying is that the king can get away with ignoring or flat out breaking the law up to a point.  That argument says nothing about what the actual law is.  Laws existed before Robert took the throne and existed after he died: it was his responsibility to his subjects to enforce them.  He did a shitty job.

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