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LadyOfCastamere

(F?) Aegon's personality and future

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Hey there!

I've been spending time thinking of possible alliances in the future between the major players of the Game of Thrones that are left at the end of ADWD. It then struck me that I did not really have a clear idea of what the presumed child of Rhaegar really is like and therefore, I could not really anticipate his future development.

So far what we have are glimpses of him through Tyrion's and JonCon's perspective. Varys describes him as perfectly raised, educated in all important matters whilst having lived with the smallfolk. Hence, he's trying to underline Aegon's worthiness aside from his ''natural claim'' through his father. JonCon mostly agrees with this, though he seems to think that Aegon isn't the smartest there is when it comes to playing the Game of Thrones - and I have to agree, he doesn't come across as very cunning (some would also say he lacks the intelligence for it).
When I read Tyrion's POV in which he played Cyvasse with Aegon and beat him, Aegon's inability to contain his anger seemed to give away his short temper. He threw the board down and commanded Tyrion to pick up the pawns. Although said to be 18 and reckoned by Tyrion to be around 16, he seems to lack patience and maturity. This is again emphasized when Aegon takes on Tyrion's suggestion and goes to Westeros without Dany, later even deciding to attack Storm's End with himself as the lead. Though his (presumed) success speaks for his abilities, it was a courageous yet unintelligent move due to the high risks.

In total, he appears to be a rather simple young man, impatient, hungry for glory, fully believing and depending on his presumed birthright. I'm not seeing a very deep soul here and no real traces of Rhaegar's personality. My prediction is that he will act unwisely and push too much, consequently losing in one of the major battles.

What are your thoughts so far?

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I can see that. I'm thinking his impatience will be his undoing in the end. How quickly Aegon was willing to throw away any original plans is concerning. It went from "I'll marry Dany" to "I'll beat her there"

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1 hour ago, LadyOfCastamere said:

Though his (presumed) success speaks for his abilities, it was a courageous yet unintelligent move due to the high risks.

I wouldn't say that. From what we know is happening in the east, it's more likely that he would die in the voyage than actually meet Dany. And Tyrion was right, it's the perfect timing for a invasion, the Seven Kingdoms are on chaos, the Tyrells are being attacked by the IB, the North is divided, the Riverlands are ruined, the Westerlands are virtually leaderless and a opportunist rules the Vale.

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2 hours ago, LadyBlackwater said:

I can see that. I'm thinking his impatience will be his undoing in the end. How quickly Aegon was willing to throw away any original plans is concerning. It went from "I'll marry Dany" to "I'll beat her there"

He initially assumed that she'd be perfectly willing to marry him, as Targyens had always married each other. Going west to win some victories for himself is explicitly framed by Tyrion as a way to bring enough to the table for Daenerys to be willing to come to him and help him the rest of the way to the throne.

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1 minute ago, FictionIsntReal said:

He initially assumed that she'd be perfectly willing to marry him, as Targyens had always married each other. Going west to win some victories for himself is explicitly framed by Tyrion as a way to bring enough to the table for Daenerys to be willing to come to him and help him the rest of the way to the throne.

Agreed, but look how easy it was to change his mind. I would hate to see Littlefinger try to puppet master that one:drunk:

Not that I think that will happen lol I'm just feeling like Aegon is driven more by the thought of immediate gratification rather than taking the time to look at the bigger picture. I also feel that if Dany is unwilling to marry him, he will be like "well, I gave you a chance. I'm taking it anyways". I could be wrong. Just a feeling.

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4 hours ago, LadyOfCastamere said:

Hey there!

I've been spending time thinking of possible alliances in the future between the major players of the Game of Thrones that are left at the end of ADWD. It then struck me that I did not really have a clear idea of what the presumed child of Rhaegar really is like and therefore, I could not really anticipate his future development.

So far what we have are glimpses of him through Tyrion's and JonCon's perspective. Varys describes him as perfectly raised, educated in all important matters whilst having lived with the smallfolk. Hence, he's trying to underline Aegon's worthiness aside from his ''natural claim'' through his father. JonCon mostly agrees with this, though he seems to think that Aegon isn't the smartest there is when it comes to playing the Game of Thrones - and I have to agree, he doesn't come across as very cunning (some would also say he lacks the intelligence for it).
When I read Tyrion's POV in which he played Cyvasse with Aegon and beat him, Aegon's inability to contain his anger seemed to give away his short temper. He threw the board down and commanded Tyrion to pick up the pawns. Although said to be 18 and reckoned by Tyrion to be around 16, he seems to lack patience and maturity. This is again emphasized when Aegon takes on Tyrion's suggestion and goes to Westeros without Dany, later even deciding to attack Storm's End with himself as the lead. Though his (presumed) success speaks for his abilities, it was a courageous yet unintelligent move due to the high risks.

In total, he appears to be a rather simple young man, impatient, hungry for glory, fully believing and depending on his presumed birthright. I'm not seeing a very deep soul here and no real traces of Rhaegar's personality. My prediction is that he will act unwisely and push too much, consequently losing in one of the major battles.

What are your thoughts so far?

Impatience is a trait shared by many young people.  Old people too.  And quick temper is common.  Brandon Stark, Cersei Lannister, Robert were lacking patience.  Jaime was privileged enough so that his temper was never tried but he also has signs of hot temper.  Jon Snow and Arya Stark are hot tempered and quick to anger.  With violent results.  I would not read too much into that cyvasse game.  

Aegon Blackfyre-Targaryen will take over from Jon as the leading male in the series.  He is the frenemy to the female lead, Daenerys Targaryen.  Jon's death should be permanent in the text version.  I think it is.  Aegon is the second Targaryen, behind Daenerys, in the text.  

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Aegon's temper is found in Jonathan as well yet no one makes a big deal of it, the boy is nephew of the Red Viper and you think he has patience for the Imp? Also Tyrion tried to set up Aegon to fail only for the Prince to succeed in taking Stormlands left and right, Tyrion says he could be in Westeros with him so I don't know how baity things were supposed to be, maybe Haldon never exposed his identity but it was Aegon who did when Tyrion said he was everything. And Tyrion warned him to not trust anyone especially Illyrio and Varys which is excellent advise. 

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I don't see him as particularly immature. I see him as the blood of the dragon, and that's rather like a Stark with the wolf blood. He can be hot-headed and impulsive (and impatient) but he's also got the confidence to pull it off. He may be 18/16 but as much effort has gone into raising him, he's been on a pretty short leash. He's never really gotten to act like a king, despite his entourage calling him one. What he lacks is real world experience and room to move around and find out who he truly is beyond what he's been told.

One of my pet theories for his future is that he'll be wonderful and triumphant...and then go mad and Varys will have to kill him (with tears in his eyes, of course).

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4 hours ago, Wolf's Bane said:

Impatience is a trait shared by many young people.  Old people too.  And quick temper is common.  Brandon Stark, Cersei Lannister, Robert were lacking patience.  Jaime was privileged enough so that his temper was never tried but he also has signs of hot temper.  Jon Snow and Arya Stark are hot tempered and quick to anger.  With violent results.  I would not read too much into that cyvasse game.  

It is interesting that most of these impatient highborn all turned out to be lousy leaders but great warriors. 

And I think this is the problem with (f?)Aegon. Chances are, he is probably more fit to live the life of an enterprising and daring self made captain than to play the game of thrones. He is well educated, strong and has life skills, somebody that could earn the respect of a loyal crew and have the stomach for risk taking that a merchant adventurer would need. However, he seems to lack the poker face and manipulative savvy that is needed for GoT.

I agree that in a way, we cannot use one cyvasse game as ultimate indicator. However, from another perspective, Westeros is one big cyvasse game where the leader needs to shrewdly get  the strategic situation right to win, and all the warrior brawn cannot substitute this as Robb learned the hard way.

Moreover, the fact that he lost the game because Tyrion told him to leave his Dragon piece behind seems to foreshadow that  his real life decision to U turn to Westeros without Dany's dragons (again on Tyrion's advice) is going to do him in.

Edited by Br16

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9 hours ago, LadyOfCastamere said:

Varys describes him as perfectly raised, educated in all important matters whilst having lived with the smallfolk. Hence, he's trying to underline Aegon's worthiness aside from his ''natural claim'' through his father.

I think another problem with (f?)Aegon is that even though Varys' feels that he is perfectly raised, the truth is that Young Griff has been living in a bubble his whole life. He may know certain life skills most highborn would consider beneath them, but he's always had peace, a safety net, and basically inherited an army of 10K that he did not need to pay for himself, or make sacrifices and take on risks to obtain. Things came easily for him, and that's going to cause him to take things for granted.

So I agree completely that he would:

9 hours ago, LadyOfCastamere said:

act unwisely and push too much, consequently losing in one of the major battles.

Jaime kind of has this problem too. Instead of carefully protecting his siege forces at Riverrun and delegating skirmish duty to others, he risks himself in a rash move, leaves his host leaderless and promptly loses the army Tywin handed over to him.

Edited by Br16

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4 hours ago, Br16 said:

I think another problem with (f?)Aegon is that even though Varys' feels that he is perfectly raised, the truth is that Young Griff has been living in a bubble his whole life. He may know certain life skills most highborn would consider beneath them, but he's always had peace, a safety net, and basically inherited an army of 10K that he did not need to pay for himself, or make sacrifices and take on risks to obtain. Things came easily for him, and that's going to cause him to take things for granted.

Well, like most nobles. There are competent nobles in RL and in books.

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17 hours ago, LadyOfCastamere said:

When I read Tyrion's POV in which he played Cyvasse with Aegon and beat him, Aegon's inability to contain his anger seemed to give away his short temper. He threw the board down and commanded Tyrion to pick up the pawns. Although said to be 18 and reckoned by Tyrion to be around 16, he seems to lack patience and maturity. This is again emphasized when Aegon takes on Tyrion's suggestion and goes to Westeros without Dany, later even deciding to attack Storm's End with himself as the lead. Though his (presumed) success speaks for his abilities, it was a courageous yet unintelligent move due to the high risks.

I think context is important. Aegon is already in a mood because he was told he could not leave the boat with Yandry and Ysilla. He doesn't want to play cyvasse and he apparently loses to Tyrion a lot and Tyrion uses that to get him to play. He is sick of being on the boat, he is sick of playing cyvasse. And then Tyrion piles on to that and he pricks at his pride and he brings up topics that are a sore point.

Tyrion uses the exact same tactics he used with Jon Snow early on in AGoT. His interaction with Aegon is very similar to the one he had with Jon when they were traveling to the Wall. Aegon flips the cyvasse board and Ghost comes out of nowhere to topple Tyrion to the ground. 

And he goes to Westeros because he wants to meet Dany as an equal and there's really nothing wrong with that. Dany made herself. She quite literally rose from the ashes and Aegon has been protected all his life and his army is smaller than her own and hers is loyal while his is an army of sellswords. He has no way of knowing that Dany thinks of him every now and again and thinks that she might have married him if he had lived.

He gambled on Tyrion's words and it looks like it might actually pay off. 

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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On 6/22/2019 at 6:45 PM, LadyBlackwater said:

I also feel that if Dany is unwilling to marry him, he will be like "well, I gave you a chance. I'm taking it anyways". I could be wrong. Just a feeling.

Legally speaking, Rhaegar's son would come ahead of his sister, who can't inherit at all per the "iron precedent" established after the Dance. The question would be whether Young Griff & the Golden Company are capable of taking over without Dany. With all of Cersei's errors (and Varys helping to undermine her regime even more), he could very well take King's Landing. Putting down rebels elsewhere would be tougher though.

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Micro-analyzing his fitness to rule, from a purely realistic perspective, is impossible.

From a literary perspective, Aegon is foreshadowed to be the Prince That Was Promised.  I say, Young Griff the Petulant Brat is not that person. 

The Prince that Was Promised is born; he is fated; he will emerge when he emerges.  He will not be socially engineered by Varys and his allies.

Faegon will do well enough ... at first.  But at some point, the Mummer's Dragon will collapse into a pile of tissue, sticks and paper mache.  And the Frog will emerge as the real Prince.  

I can't prove it.  But that's how I'm calling it.

Edited by Platypus Rex

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On ‎6‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 2:03 AM, Br16 said:

Moreover, the fact that he lost the game because Tyrion told him to leave his Dragon piece behind seems to foreshadow that  his real life decision to U turn to Westeros without Dany's dragons (again on Tyrion's advice) is going to do him in.

The metaphor, as you interpret it, does not work.  You have to have a dragon, before you make the strategic mistake of bringing it out too soon (this is a clear reference to a common mistake in Chess, as applied to its most powerful piece, the Queen).

But this could foreshadow his gaining control of a dragon, using it too often, too soon, and too eagerly, and losing the war because of it.

Where would he get a dragon from?  Dunno.  But we have all these blood mages running around, and all this foreshadowing regarding human sacrifice with kingsblood babies awaking stone dragons (presumably dragons with advanced greyscale).

Jeyne Westerling, per the rumours, will be in the prologue of Winds, which will also concern the taking of Storms End.   But what does Jeyne have to do with the taking of Storms End?  Dunno.  But King Robb may have left a baby in her belly, and Jeyne's mother Sybil is a blood mage.  Young Griff might be able to take Storm's End, if he had a dragon.

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8 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Young Griff might be able to take Storm's End, if he had a dragon.

It's from WoW in case you don't want to be spoiled.

Spoiler

When Arianne arrives at Griffin's Roost, Haldon tells her that Storm's End has been taken. 

 

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36 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

It's from WoW in case you don't want to be spoiled.

  Reveal hidden contents

When Arianne arrives at Griffin's Roost, Haldon tells her that Storm's End has been taken. 

 

Well, I was trying to avoid TWOW spoilers, because I'm not sure what the policy is.  But regardless of whether he will or will not take Storms End in TWOW, there is I think some mystery about HOW he hopes to achieve this.

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27 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

So you're one of those people who think Quentyn Martell is still alive? :)

The real Quentyn Martell (alias Young Griff, alias Aegon VI), son of Mellario of Norvos (alias Septa Lemore), is still alive, 

The real Aegon VI (alias the Frog, alias Quentyn Martell), son of Elia Martell, is also still alive.  He survived his encounter with Rhaegal, 'coz he's the blood of the dragon.  The unrecognizable person who died on Dany's bed was an unrecognizable person (probably the remains of Tatters).

Yeah.  Both Quentyns are still alive, for now.  But the Frog will outlive Young Griff.

Edited by Platypus Rex

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