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What was Renly's plan (after Robert's death) if he didn't know about the twincest?

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22 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

There are only three non-Targaryen characters in the book who have ae in their names: Margaery, Petyr Baelish and Shae. Only one of them is a highborn maid; born in 283, just a year or two after Aegon VI.

Aemma, Aeron, Aelinor, Daegon, Daeryssa, Maege, Maerie, Michael, Praed, Vaellyn

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Olenna does not run House Tyrell. That's just nonsense. She herself makes that clear repeatedly. She just cleans up the mess Mace and his ambitions make.

Olenna didn't want the Renly nonsense, and Olenna didn't want the Joffrey nonsense. She didn't even want to make Margaery queen. Once she realized she could not prevent it she made her peace with it and tried to make it work - by removing Joffrey and marrying Margaery to Tommen. If her voice had been heard during the marriage negotiations Loras would have never joined the Kingsguard.

The entire Sansa plan is part of the plan to murder Joffrey. Sansa is used to corroborate Littlefinger's story of Joff's cruelty, and she is set up as one of the scapegoats in the poisoning plot. They also have the goal to make her Willas' bride - but that's not exactly crucial.

And it is an underhanded move to push the balance of power in the western alliance more towards Highgarden.

How ambitious and vexing Mace Tyrell can actually be - and a testament to his own designs - is the Epilogue of ADwD. He and Tarly basically have their daggers at Kevan's throat. Kevan may call himself regent, but Mace and Tarly run the show. They demand, and Kevan has to yield. They still work together but it is clear who runs the show now. And Mace doesn't need his mommy to help him with that.

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1 hour ago, Nittanian said:

Aemma, Aeron, Aelinor, Daegon, Daeryssa, Maege, Maerie, Michael, Praed, Vaellyn

One could also add a lot of the people mentioned in the Volantis appendix of ADwD...

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22 hours ago, Nittanian said:

Aemma, Aeron, Aelinor, Daegon, Daeryssa, Maege, Maerie, Michael, Praed, Vaellyn

Aemma Arryn, aka, queen consort and first wife of Viserys I

Aelinor Penrose, aka, wife of Aerys I

Daeryssa was a fictional character from an ancient song, rescued by Serwyn of the Mirror Shield who slew a dragon, which makes it likely she was Valyrian or married to a Valyrian.

Maerie was a commoner in the riverlands. That might not even be her real name but an assumed name to get coin from men who think they may be shagging a Targaryen.

All the rest are men, except Maege, who is hardly worthy of a Targaryen prince. But sure, I'll amend my post to say No highborn maid who had any reasonable shot at landing a Targaryen was given a name with the backward ae other than Margaery, who just happened to be born a year or two after Aegon.

 

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On ‎6‎/‎26‎/‎2019 at 2:14 PM, John Suburbs said:

Lady Olenna is lying, plain and simple.

Come on. Renly's lying and now Olenna's lying.

You are jumping through a lot of hoops to make your theory make sense. You can't simply reject evidence because you don't like it.

On ‎6‎/‎26‎/‎2019 at 2:14 PM, John Suburbs said:

The plan went bust, so now she gets to lay it all on Mace's lap.

It hardly went bust, Margaery is Queen, Mace sits on the Small Council and Garlan the new Lord of Brightwater Keep. This has hardly been a bust for Mace nor does he or anyone else view it as such.

The Crown even went back on declaring Renly a traitor.

On ‎6‎/‎26‎/‎2019 at 2:14 PM, John Suburbs said:

 

Answer me this: if Mace is the iron-fisted ruler in Highgarden,

It would be nice to not put words in my mouth. I claimed he was in charge, 'iron fisted' is your emphasis, not mine. Someone does not need to be ironfisted to be in charge, I imagine Mace is quite laissez faire in his style. Welcome to others opinons

On ‎6‎/‎26‎/‎2019 at 2:14 PM, John Suburbs said:

 

then why is Lady O calling him an oaf and Lord Puff fish in front of his wife and daughter, as well as a perfect stranger?

She's his elderly mother, she knows she can say what she wants, she is not going to be punished for it.  For all you know Mace may even find it amusing.

On ‎6‎/‎26‎/‎2019 at 2:14 PM, John Suburbs said:

 

Why, at the end of the conversation, do we get this exchange:

It means she is sometimes able to manipulate her son. I expect that may be true of many leaders. Robert was the same, he was still the one command.

I'm getting that you have a very specific style of command here, you may be arguing semantics here as its possible we have both different understandings of command.

To put it clearly, Mace is in charge, he has the final say. That is not to say that others, like his mother or daughter, can not influence him or even sometimes have him change his mind, but ultimately he is in command of House Tyrell.

He is not going to his mother to ask permission to act, his mother is not giving him orders, when she wants him to do something she has to manipulate him into doing and as we see with the Renly scenario, she is not always successful.

On ‎6‎/‎26‎/‎2019 at 2:14 PM, John Suburbs said:

Lady O is giving Mace no choice in the matter. Sansa will go to Highgarden and will wed Willas, without his leave or his knowledge -- something that would be utterly unthinkable if Mace were truly in charge.

I genuinely thinking you are misreading the matter. She is talking of manipulating him into thinking it was his choice, this is not an uncommon tact in some relationships. But Mace, not his mother, has the final say.

On ‎6‎/‎26‎/‎2019 at 2:14 PM, John Suburbs said:

 

There is nothing in the books to suggest that Mace is anything but the incompetent, malleable oaf that Lady O describes.

Sure there is. By the end of ADWD he is the Regent, his daughter the Queen and he the most powerful Lord in the realm. That is not the sign of incompetency.

On ‎6‎/‎26‎/‎2019 at 2:14 PM, John Suburbs said:

You would have us believe that the whole Willas plot was his doing,

No. Where do you think I claimed that?

Being in charge does not mean every single act is made by the Lord. It is clearly the women of House Tyrell's plot. They were trying to be subtle, lay the groundwork.

Mace would have the final say on who his son married, not his mother. His mother can suggest who and make a compelling case, but it is Mace's call to make.

On ‎6‎/‎26‎/‎2019 at 2:14 PM, John Suburbs said:

 

and yet at Sansa's wedding to Tyrion, he shows absolutely no sign that his plan was foiled, just a flushed sweaty face during a simple dance.

eh? Why would he?

Tywin is in charge of the Lannisters but there are going to be times his subordinates are acting on their own. Mace is no different.

Sansa was not the prize for Mace, his daughter being Queen was. Sansa, like Brightwater Keep or the Handship, were just bonuses. It is not the end of the world if they fall through.

On ‎6‎/‎26‎/‎2019 at 2:14 PM, John Suburbs said:

We also see Mace's buffoonery virtually every time we see him. Beside the encounter with Cersei at the funeral, we have him at the small council meeting:

How is that buffoonery? You are stretching the meaning of the word here.

On ‎6‎/‎26‎/‎2019 at 2:14 PM, John Suburbs said:

 

Later in the same meeting, Mace puts up a stink about Dornish crossing his lands, but in the end he caves, just like he always does.

Clearly not always, crowning Renly is evidence of this.

But of course he caved. He's outranked by Tywin on this matter and its not a huge issue. Notice who does not get a say in the Martells crossing the Reach, Lady Olenna. Notice who is not on the Small Council, Lady Olenna.

 

 

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21 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Come on. Renly's lying and now Olenna's lying.

You are jumping through a lot of hoops to make your theory make sense. You can't simply reject evidence because you don't like it.

It hardly went bust, Margaery is Queen, Mace sits on the Small Council and Garlan the new Lord of Brightwater Keep. This has hardly been a bust for Mace nor does he or anyone else view it as such.

The Crown even went back on declaring Renly a traitor.

It would be nice to not put words in my mouth. I claimed he was in charge, 'iron fisted' is your emphasis, not mine. Someone does not need to be ironfisted to be in charge, I imagine Mace is quite laissez faire in his style. Welcome to others opinons

She's his elderly mother, she knows she can say what she wants, she is not going to be punished for it.  For all you know Mace may even find it amusing.

It means she is sometimes able to manipulate her son. I expect that may be true of many leaders. Robert was the same, he was still the one command.

I'm getting that you have a very specific style of command here, you may be arguing semantics here as its possible we have both different understandings of command.

To put it clearly, Mace is in charge, he has the final say. That is not to say that others, like his mother or daughter, can not influence him or even sometimes have him change his mind, but ultimately he is in command of House Tyrell.

He is not going to his mother to ask permission to act, his mother is not giving him orders, when she wants him to do something she has to manipulate him into doing and as we see with the Renly scenario, she is not always successful.

I genuinely thinking you are misreading the matter. She is talking of manipulating him into thinking it was his choice, this is not an uncommon tact in some relationships. But Mace, not his mother, has the final say.

Sure there is. By the end of ADWD he is the Regent, his daughter the Queen and he the most powerful Lord in the realm. That is not the sign of incompetency.

No. Where do you think I claimed that?

Being in charge does not mean every single act is made by the Lord. It is clearly the women of House Tyrell's plot. They were trying to be subtle, lay the groundwork.

Mace would have the final say on who his son married, not his mother. His mother can suggest who and make a compelling case, but it is Mace's call to make.

eh? Why would he?

Tywin is in charge of the Lannisters but there are going to be times his subordinates are acting on their own. Mace is no different.

Sansa was not the prize for Mace, his daughter being Queen was. Sansa, like Brightwater Keep or the Handship, were just bonuses. It is not the end of the world if they fall through.

How is that buffoonery? You are stretching the meaning of the word here.

Clearly not always, crowning Renly is evidence of this.

But of course he caved. He's outranked by Tywin on this matter and its not a huge issue. Notice who does not get a say in the Martells crossing the Reach, Lady Olenna. Notice who is not on the Small Council, Lady Olenna.

 

 

I never said Renly was lying. I said the plan to marry Margy to Robert was not his plan, it was Lady Olenna's, and her goal was to make Margaery the queen so a Tyrell could sit the Iron Throne.

Lol, who's rejecting evidence here? As I've shown, there is copious evidence throughout the book, even from Lady I's own lips and Mace's own behavior right in front of us, that he is a boob and she orders him around. You can't reject all of that just because you don't like it.

Margaery is queen because they were able to craft an alliance with the Lannisters after Renly was killed. The Renly plan was to put him on the Iron Throne with Margaery as his queen; that was the plan that went bust. Are you saying that Lady O's plan all along was to wed Margy to Renly, wait until he is killed by a shadow, then marry her to Joffrey?

Mace is nominally "in charge" because he is the Lord of Highgarden. Lady Olenna wields the true power, however, because Mace will not make any decision or take any action she does not approve of. It's called being a puppet ruler. She does more than just manipulate him, she flat out overrules his decisions, as in the case with Cersei and Willas. If Lady O did not want Margaery to marry Renly, it simply would not have happened. But she wants a Tyrell on the Iron Thone -- and likely convinced Mace to go along with this because he was probably oblivious to the opportunity -- because it serves the interests of House Tyrell, so that's what was done.

Mace is not regent, he is the Hand, and we can see further signs of his idiocy even here:

Quote

The new King's Hand was seated on an oaken throne carved in the shape of a hand, an absurd vanity his lordship had produced the day Ser Kevan agreed to grant him the office he coveted.

Literally everyone who encounters Mace thinks he is an idiot.

Becoming Hand does not require competence. Plenty of foolish men have been Hand. He stumbled into it by default and the blindness of the previous regent to the hostile forces she had unleashed.

The women of House Tyrell plotting to wed the eldest son and heir of the sitting lord behind his back and presumably against his will, and this is a lord that you say is in charge of his house? The mere fact that these women would consider such an act is all the evidence we need to conclude that Mace is not the one making these kinds of decisions, nor do they have any fear of retribution for making such a consequential decision without his leave. This would be like Catelyn scheming to marry Sansa off to a Piper or a Whent in order to prevent her marriage to Joffrey, or indeed, the way Johanna schemed to wed Cersei to a Martell, which was ultimately overruled by Tywin, who was said to be ruled at home by his lady wife -- but not in decisions like marriage that affected the future of House Lannister. Lords decide who their children marry -- not wives, not mothers.

Mace would not have had the final say here. The plan was to bring Sansa to Highgarden and marry her to Willas, as stated by Lady Olenna herself:

Quote

"If my lord oaf son asks, she will have no choice but to grant his request."

"Will he?" asked Sansa. "Will he ask?"

Lady Olenna frowned. "I see no need to give him a choice. Of course, he has no hint of our true purpose."

Sansa wrinkled her brow. "Our true purpose, my lady?"

"To see you safely wed, child . . ."

This is not a woman who just thinks that her oaf son will go along with it, she knows. And the reason she knows is that she, Lady Olenna, wants it to happen, therefore it will happen. Otherwise, there would be no point in not bringing her capable, competent oaf son in on the plot from the beginning, rather than spring it on him at the last minute only to have him reject the idea and send Sansa back to King's Landing. Sansa, after all, is a ward of the family that he has just entered into a political/military alliance with, and she is the sister of the rebel lord he is now warring against. This has the potential to drive a huge wedge between him and his allies -- not that Mace himself would realize this; he would just go along with whatever his mother said.

Sansa as the Lady of Highgarden should be monumentally important to Mace. She will be the mother of his grandchildren, one of whom will one day be Lord in his place. To say that Mace should care about Margaery and nothing but Margaery is ridiculous. The Iron Throne may be an extension of Tyrell power, but its source is Highgarden. Selecting the wife of his son and heir is not just some idle pursuit, it is extremely consequential to the future of his house. Under normal circumstances, there is absolutely no way a wife or mother could make this kind of marriage on their own, but with the Tyrells, it is Lady Olenna who makes these decisions and leaves Mace no choice in the matter. And Mace, boob that he is, is perfectly OK with this.

Politically, he is outranked by Tywin, but Mace has the bigger army. If he were a lord worthy of the name, he could have gotten his way here. But not only did the Dornish cross his lands, it turned out not to be Doran, who Mace does not have a quarrel with, but the Red Viper, who crippled his son, and he brought his unwed bastard paramour to boot. But Mace caved, just like he always does, to everybody.

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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

I never said Renly was lying. I said the plan to marry Margy to Robert was not his plan, it was Lady Olenna's

You're wildly wrong about this. There's absolutely zero evidence that this was anything other than a plan Renly and Loras cooked up and were trying to sell Mace on. Olenna's name is never even mentioned within the main body of the text until she appears in ASoS -- way to bury the lede (aka bad writing) if someone involved in a plot from the first book (having Cersei set aside for Margaery) and apparently central (by your account) to a plot in the second book (supporting Renly's rebellion) is in fact completely absent in any way, shape, or form until after those plots are upended.

Varys talks about Loras urging his father to send Margaery. Not Olenna. Why does Loras have to do anything with Mace if it's Olenna who has set up the plot and is running it, as you claim?

Edited by Ran

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3 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

I never said Renly was lying. I said the plan to marry Margy to Robert was not his plan,

Sounds like he (and Stannis) considered it his plan

"We both know your wedding was a mummer's farce. A year ago you were scheming to make the girl one of Robert's whores."
"A year ago I was scheming to make the girl Robert's queen," Renly said, "but what does it matter?
 
And Varys spy network backs this plan up
 
The Knight of Flowers writes Highgarden, urging his lord father to send his sister to court. The girl is a maid of fourteen, sweet and beautiful and tractable, and Lord Renly and Ser Loras intend that Robert should bed her, wed her, and make a new queen.
 
 
3 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

 

it was Lady Olenna's, and her goal was to make Margaery the queen so a Tyrell could sit the Iron Throne.

Yeah, not according to the books we have. If anything she seems to have been one of the perpetrators behind murdering Joffrey, which delays a Tyrell sitting on the Iron Throne.

3 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Lol, who's rejecting evidence here?

You are. Or are you satisfied with the quotes from Renly about his plan and Olenna about not wanting to support Renly?

Why would Olenna need to lie to Sansa when in the same conversation Sansa is being told how much Renly was liked by Mace, Margaery and Loras.

What exactly does Olenna have to gain from that? What does GRRM? It seems an entirely meaningless lie to make with no payoff.

3 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

 

As I've shown, there is copious evidence throughout the book, even from Lady I's own lips and Mace's own behavior right in front of us, that he is a boob and she orders him around. You can't reject all of that just because you don't like it.

She influences his decision, she does not order him around.

3 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Margaery is queen because they were able to craft an alliance with the Lannisters after Renly was killed. The Renly plan was to put him on the Iron Throne with Margaery as his queen; that was the plan that went bust. Are you saying that Lady O's plan all along was to wed Margy to Renly, wait until he is killed by a shadow, then marry her to Joffrey?

Lady Olenna had no plan, she did not want the Tyrells mixed up in it.  We know that past experience has not exactly made her enamoured with royalty given her failed betrothal to Daeron.

3 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Mace is nominally "in charge" because he is the Lord of Highgarden.

He's not in charge in name only, he's in charge. That is just a fact.

3 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

 

Lady Olenna wields the true power, however, because Mace will not make any decision or take any action she does not approve of.

But that is false. We know for a fact that is false as we know that she did not want her House to rebel and support a Usurper. That is canon.

What does she have to gain from bringing that up in the first place to Sansa.

3 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

 

It's called being a puppet ruler.

Not sure how this applies here. Does Tarly think Lady Olenna is in charge of House Tyrell? Rowan? Redwyne? Any of his vassals?

Does Tywin, Tyrion or Varys come to this conclusion? Why does Tywin not deal directly with Olenna like he does in the show, where she actually is in command. Why does she not stick around after the Wedding?

The Olenna and Mace from the show are not the same as their counterparts in the book.

3 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

 

She does more than just manipulate him, she flat out overrules his decisions, as in the case with Cersei and Willas.

Not that we know of. It could well be that she gave him a different viewpoint, one he found to make more sense, pointing out how unsuitable Cersei was as a bride considering her age.

 

3 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

 

If Lady O did not want Margaery to marry Renly, it simply would not have happened. But she wants a Tyrell on the Iron Thone -- and likely convinced Mace to go along with this because he was probably oblivious to the opportunity -- because it serves the interests of House Tyrell, so that's what was done.

That is not backed up by the books. It contradicts what we learn in the books.

 

3 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Literally everyone who encounters Mace thinks he is an idiot.

Again, this is not a conversation about his intelligence, its about him being in command.

Plenty of idiots are in charge, plenty of idiots are competent leaders due to listening to their more intelligent councillors.

Mace is a competent leader. Certainly in comparison to many of his peers.

3 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Becoming Hand does not require competence. Plenty of foolish men have been Hand. He stumbled into it by default and the blindness of the previous regent to the hostile forces she had unleashed.

Exactly, so why are you so concerned with it?

3 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

The women of House Tyrell plotting to wed the eldest son and heir of the sitting lord behind his back and presumably against his will, and this is a lord that you say is in charge of his house?

Yes. They can only have Willas marry who they want if they convince Mace it is the right thing to do.

Sansa is not a hard sell. Nor is convincing him that the 30something Cersei might not be the best match for his heir.

 

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Posted (edited)
On 6/26/2019 at 6:48 PM, Lord Varys said:

Olenna didn't want the Renly nonsense, and Olenna didn't want the Joffrey nonsense. She didn't even want to make Margaery queen. Once she realized she could not prevent it she made her peace with it and tried to make it work - by removing Joffrey and marrying Margaery to Tommen. If her voice had been heard during the marriage negotiations Loras would have never joined the Kingsguard.

 

Am I the only one that feels that it's far more possible that the target of the poison was Tyrion rather than Joffrey though? I think that the death of Joffrey (without giving Margaery a son first) creates more problems than it solves for the Tyrells especially considering that Tommen is still too young which allows Cersei to get more influence and after all, the death of Tyrion makes Sance eligible for marriage to Willas again. 

In the end of the day if Olenna wanted to poison Joffrey she wouldn't make all this mess of a plan. Maybe the Tyrells did nothing in the end of the day and that was all Littlefinger. I mean Littlefinger had a lot of reasons to kill Tyrion and take Sansa away and he definitely had reasons to blame the Tyrells for the murder to Sansa after. Maybe it is what we already know but then this leaves the Tyrells with an 8 year old king that can't have a full mariage yet and a Queen regnant that hates them. I do believe that the Tyrells would want to poison Joffrey but when Margaery would have a son. That would make her Queen Regent for at least a decade which would inevitably make the Tyrells rules of Westeros for a while.

Edited by Dreadscythe95

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20 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Sounds like he (and Stannis) considered it his plan

"We both know your wedding was a mummer's farce. A year ago you were scheming to make the girl one of Robert's whores."
"A year ago I was scheming to make the girl Robert's queen," Renly said, "but what does it matter?
 
And Varys spy network backs this plan up
 
The Knight of Flowers writes Highgarden, urging his lord father to send his sister to court. The girl is a maid of fourteen, sweet and beautiful and tractable, and Lord Renly and Ser Loras intend that Robert should bed her, wed her, and make a new queen.
 
 

Yeah, not according to the books we have. If anything she seems to have been one of the perpetrators behind murdering Joffrey, which delays a Tyrell sitting on the Iron Throne.

You are. Or are you satisfied with the quotes from Renly about his plan and Olenna about not wanting to support Renly?

Why would Olenna need to lie to Sansa when in the same conversation Sansa is being told how much Renly was liked by Mace, Margaery and Loras.

What exactly does Olenna have to gain from that? What does GRRM? It seems an entirely meaningless lie to make with no payoff.

She influences his decision, she does not order him around.

Lady Olenna had no plan, she did not want the Tyrells mixed up in it.  We know that past experience has not exactly made her enamoured with royalty given her failed betrothal to Daeron.

He's not in charge in name only, he's in charge. That is just a fact.

But that is false. We know for a fact that is false as we know that she did not want her House to rebel and support a Usurper. That is canon.

What does she have to gain from bringing that up in the first place to Sansa.

Not sure how this applies here. Does Tarly think Lady Olenna is in charge of House Tyrell? Rowan? Redwyne? Any of his vassals?

Does Tywin, Tyrion or Varys come to this conclusion? Why does Tywin not deal directly with Olenna like he does in the show, where she actually is in command. Why does she not stick around after the Wedding?

The Olenna and Mace from the show are not the same as their counterparts in the book.

Not that we know of. It could well be that she gave him a different viewpoint, one he found to make more sense, pointing out how unsuitable Cersei was as a bride considering her age.

 

That is not backed up by the books. It contradicts what we learn in the books.

 

Again, this is not a conversation about his intelligence, its about him being in command.

Plenty of idiots are in charge, plenty of idiots are competent leaders due to listening to their more intelligent councillors.

Mace is a competent leader. Certainly in comparison to many of his peers.

Exactly, so why are you so concerned with it?

Yes. They can only have Willas marry who they want if they convince Mace it is the right thing to do.

Sansa is not a hard sell. Nor is convincing him that the 30something Cersei might not be the best match for his heir.

 

I agree with you. people mix the books with the Series. In the books Mace is in charge of House Tyrell, Olenna works in the background to secure the safety of her House.

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45 minutes ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

Am I the only one that feels that it's far more possible that the target of the poison was Tyrion rather than Joffrey though?

Nah, that's just nonsense. Nobody wanted to murder Tyrion there, and if you want to kill Tyrion you can do that in a number of less contrived ways, in ways that do not take place at Joffrey's wedding and risk murdering the king by accident.

45 minutes ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

I think that the death of Joffrey (without giving Margaery a son first) creates more problems than it solves for the Tyrells especially considering that Tommen is still too young which allows Cersei to get more influence and after all, the death of Tyrion makes Sance eligible for marriage to Willas again. 

Nah, Cersei only gains more influence because Tywin dies and she can continue as Queen Regent and take real power in her hands rather than serving as little more than a figurehead beneath Tywin.

Tywin wanted to get around the Tommen match by offering Jaime for Margaery, but neither Jaime nor the Tyrells would have that. And the Lannisters need the Tyrells. If Mace decided to continue the Lannister campaigns against Stannis and the Ironborn, things would no longer go as well as they did back in ASoS.

45 minutes ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

In the end of the day if Olenna wanted to poison Joffrey she wouldn't make all this mess of a plan.

Sure, because this mess of a plan ensured that nobody would suspect her and her family. Plan A, the most ideal scenario, was to disguise the murder as an accident (that's the script Alerie and Margaery follow immediately after Joff's death), plan B is that Tyrion is going to be the scapegoat, freeing him for Willas (which is why Olenna asked Sansa whether she wanted her to accompany her to Highgarden for a visit - if she hadn't disappeared the Tyrells would have taken her), plan C was to blame Sansa if, for some reason, the accident and the Tyrion plan wouldn't have worked (because Tywin or Cersei refused to believe Tyrion was guilty, if Tyrion had been nowhere near Joff's wine, etc.).

The crucial thing here is not only that you get away with a regicide but also that the Lannisters don't even suspect you were behind the murder. It wouldn't do if Olenna and her family were suspected or accused of being involved and Tywin/Cersei fail to prove their guilt. It was necessary that nobody ever suspected that they may have been involved. Else the alliance would not continue.

And here it was crucial to not offer only a number of suspect who have much better motives, but also give them the means and the opportunity to be behind the murder. And that's what both Olenna and Littlefinger did.

45 minutes ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

Maybe the Tyrells did nothing in the end of the day and that was all Littlefinger. I mean Littlefinger had a lot of reasons to kill Tyrion and take Sansa away and he definitely had reasons to blame the Tyrells for the murder to Sansa after. Maybe it is what we already know but then this leaves the Tyrells with an 8 year old king that can't have a full mariage yet and a Queen regnant that hates them. I do believe that the Tyrells would want to poison Joffrey but when Margaery would have a son. That would make her Queen Regent for at least a decade which would inevitably make the Tyrells rules of Westeros for a while.

It is quite clear why Olenna concluded Joffrey had to go. For one, he would eventually mistreat Margaery and she was having none of that. Second, Loras joining the KG was another Kingslayer in the making - Olenna also had no intention to see her grandson ruin himself by putting down Joffrey in a rage.

Littlefinger certainly wanted to kill Tyrion since ACoK, but his final plan was to frame him for Joff's murder and have Tywin execute him. If anybody had wanted to target Tyrion there would have been no need for the jousting dwarfs, and ADwD independently corroborated that Littlefinger was behind that thing (via Oswell Kettleblack).

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On 6/28/2019 at 11:44 AM, Ran said:

You're wildly wrong about this. There's absolutely zero evidence that this was anything other than a plan Renly and Loras cooked up and were trying to sell Mace on. Olenna's name is never even mentioned within the main body of the text until she appears in ASoS -- way to bury the lede (aka bad writing) if someone involved in a plot from the first book (having Cersei set aside for Margaery) and apparently central (by your account) to a plot in the second book (supporting Renly's rebellion) is in fact completely absent in any way, shape, or form until after those plots are upended.

Varys talks about Loras urging his father to send Margaery. Not Olenna. Why does Loras have to do anything with Mace if it's Olenna who has set up the plot and is running it, as you claim?

If this was all Renly's plan, then it was never going to go anywhere, nor would he have any expectation that it would. Mace will only give Margaery's hand to someone if his mother says so. Sorry, but this whole idea that Mace makes the rules in Highgarden and everybody else just falls into line has been utterly demolished by the text. Over and over again we see Mace doing whatever the stronger personalities around him tell him to do, whether that is his mother, Tywin or someone else. The only way Margaery could marry Robert is if Lady Olenna wants it that way, and the only way she would agree to this is if Cersei is removed and all three of her children are disinherited. Her goal is to put a Tyrell butt on the Iron Throne.

Of course none of this is explained in Renly and Ned's one and only conversation about it. Why would Renly need to reveal such detail? All he wants to know is if Margaery does look like Lyanna. There was also no indication that Littlefinger was behind the Arryn murder, and only the barest hint that Lysa was involved as well. And yet, three books deep into the story, we get the truth that it was them all along. Same thing for the Westerling conspiracy: no clue that Tywin and Sybell were conspiring, and yet suddenly in Dance we get the truth. So how can you possibly say that just because Lady Olenna hasn't been mentioned that she cannot have been involved? We've seen the way things work in Highgarden: Mace does nothing of importance, particularly marriages, without Lady Olenna's approval. That's the way it was with Cersei and Willas, with Margaery and Joffrey, so there is no reason to think this wasn't the way with Margaery and Robert or Margaery and Renly.

 

 

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54 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

If this was all Renly's plan, then it was never going to go anywhere, nor would he have any expectation that it would.

Even if you were right here - and you are not - then you cannot presume Renly knows that. He is an over-confident youth who thinks he'll get everything he wants because he wants it so. Renly would never see a shriveled old woman as an obstacle to his plan, even if she was - but she was not, since Olenna Redwyne does not run Highgarden.

54 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Mace will only give Margaery's hand to someone if his mother says so.

That is factually wrong. Mace Tyrell gave Margaery's hand to Renly Baratheon, a move his mother did not support as per her own admission. Your argumentation borders on solipsism here since Olenna makes it very clear that she never supported 'King Renly'.

54 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Sorry, but this whole idea that Mace makes the rules in Highgarden and everybody else just falls into line has been utterly demolished by the text.

That's just wrong. There are moments were Mace follows his mother's arguments, but there are other scenes where Mace essentially does exactly what he - and nobody else - wants. And then he usually gets what he wants. It is his goal to make Margaery the queen, and he succeeds at that first with Renly, then with Joffrey, and then with Tommen. Olenna helps him resolve the Joffrey issue, but it is his desire to advance House Tyrell. That is his ambition. Just as it was his ambition to recreate Leo Longthorn in his sons, pushing Willas too far at too young an age (he succeeded there with Garlan and especially Loras, who is basically the wet dream of a father who wants a great jouster).

54 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Over and over again we see Mace doing whatever the stronger personalities around him tell him to do, whether that is his mother, Tywin or someone else.

Actually, it is Mace who tells Tywin what to do during the Tyrion trial. He insists on the condemnation and execution of the dwarf and that's what he gets. He also gets everything he wants from Tywin and later Kevan - two royal marriages involving the same bride, seats on the council for himself and his kin and bannermen, a great seat for his second son, the Handship, etc.

54 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

The only way Margaery could marry Robert is if Lady Olenna wants it that way, and the only way she would agree to this is if Cersei is removed and all three of her children are disinherited. Her goal is to put a Tyrell butt on the Iron Throne.

That is just in your head. Nobody needs Olenna's permission to make Margaery Robert's queen - if Robert wanted to marry Margaery he would just do that. He is the king, he doesn't need the permission of his bride's grandmother to marry her. He would simply marry Margaery - and as people have repeatedly explained to you it makes no sense at all to pretend any nobleman or noblewoman in this world would not jump at the chance of a member of their family being queen. It is irrelevant whether she is the second or third wife of a king or whether there are other children who come before in the line of succession - the position of queen alone advances the family, allow them gain position and prestige at court and in the larger Realm.

The idea that any Tyrell would have a childish 'all or nothing' approach to court politics is nonsense. 

54 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

So how can you possibly say that just because Lady Olenna hasn't been mentioned that she cannot have been involved?

Because it is quite clear that this was Renly's scheme. He wanted that Loras' father - not his grandmother! - send Loras' sister to court so she could catch Robert's eye and eventually become his queen - perhaps by first becoming his mistress, perhaps by playing the Boleyn game of only agreeing to have sex with Robert when they are married.

Olenna would not figure into such a scheme at all. She is not at court, and her later behavior makes it clear that she does not want to live at court, anyway (else she would not have abandoned Margaery to Cersei in AFfC, completely misjudging the danger Cersei posed to her granddaughter!)

54 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

We've seen the way things work in Highgarden: Mace does nothing of importance, particularly marriages, without Lady Olenna's approval. That's the way it was with Cersei and Willas, with Margaery and Joffrey, so there is no reason to think this wasn't the way with Margaery and Robert or Margaery and Renly.

Olenna opposed the Willas-Cersei match, yes. But that's it.

And this is hardly surprising considering Cersei's age and character. It is also not surprising that Mace's mother does have some influence over her son in the marriages of his children - women are known to arrange marriages in Westeros, meaning that both Lord Luthor and Mace may have occasionally (or even regularly) followed Olenna's advice in this regard. But this doesn't mean Olenna's input is followed all the time. She is not some kind of shadow ruler. She is the mother of the Lord of Highgarden who has some influence over her son, that's it.

Olenna had no voice in the decision-making process of Margaery-Joffrey. That was Mace, it was all Mace. Olenna saw/knew what her son would do, did her own investigation and decided that her son's plan and desire was more likely to work with a King Tommen than a King Joffrey. And part of the problem was Mace's nonsensical decision to make Loras a knight of the Kingsguard. Without that complication Olenna might have seen less of a complication in Joffrey. If she were running things she would have forbidden Loras to join the KG.

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On 6/23/2019 at 3:47 PM, RYShh said:

We've no evidence that Renly knew about the twincest and the fact that all of Robert's children were bastards from Jaime as we understand from their conversation with Stannis, so if Renly didn't know about the twincest, did he really think he could take down the Lannisters on his own with the help of the Tyrells after Robert's death?

Whithout knowing about the twincest, no one of Renlys plans made sense. 

Because without twincest and a fully legitimate Baratheon heir, Renly would have had at least two more very serious opponents/kingdoms against him. Eddard Stark/The north and Stannis/Stormlands, this time with stronger backing by baratheon loyalists. 

Therefore I suppose that Renly was full aware of the twincest. I also suppose that the Tyrells would never had invested in such an hazardous and traitorous plan without knowing of the twincest. 

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2 hours ago, Wolfbynature said:

Whithout knowing about the twincest, no one of Renlys plans made sense. 

Because without twincest and a fully legitimate Baratheon heir, Renly would have had at least two more very serious opponents/kingdoms against him. Eddard Stark/The north and Stannis/Stormlands, this time with stronger backing by baratheon loyalists. 

Therefore I suppose that Renly was full aware of the twincest. I also suppose that the Tyrells would never had invested in such an hazardous and traitorous plan without knowing of the twincest. 

How would he? Renly is playing the role of cupid, that is it. If Robert decides to set aside his wife and marry another that is on Robert. Why would the North and Stormlands be against Renly for the King doing as a King pleases?

 

And how would the Stormlands be against Renly? Most of the Lords supported him usurping the throne.

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On 7/1/2019 at 11:05 AM, Lord Varys said:

Even if you were right here - and you are not - then you cannot presume Renly knows that. He is an over-confident youth who thinks he'll get everything he wants because he wants it so. Renly would never see a shriveled old woman as an obstacle to his plan, even if she was - but she was not, since Olenna Redwyne does not run Highgarden.

That is factually wrong. Mace Tyrell gave Margaery's hand to Renly Baratheon, a move his mother did not support as per her own admission. Your argumentation borders on solipsism here since Olenna makes it very clear that she never supported 'King Renly'.

That's just wrong. There are moments were Mace follows his mother's arguments, but there are other scenes where Mace essentially does exactly what he - and nobody else - wants. And then he usually gets what he wants. It is his goal to make Margaery the queen, and he succeeds at that first with Renly, then with Joffrey, and then with Tommen. Olenna helps him resolve the Joffrey issue, but it is his desire to advance House Tyrell. That is his ambition. Just as it was his ambition to recreate Leo Longthorn in his sons, pushing Willas too far at too young an age (he succeeded there with Garlan and especially Loras, who is basically the wet dream of a father who wants a great jouster).

Actually, it is Mace who tells Tywin what to do during the Tyrion trial. He insists on the condemnation and execution of the dwarf and that's what he gets. He also gets everything he wants from Tywin and later Kevan - two royal marriages involving the same bride, seats on the council for himself and his kin and bannermen, a great seat for his second son, the Handship, etc.

That is just in your head. Nobody needs Olenna's permission to make Margaery Robert's queen - if Robert wanted to marry Margaery he would just do that. He is the king, he doesn't need the permission of his bride's grandmother to marry her. He would simply marry Margaery - and as people have repeatedly explained to you it makes no sense at all to pretend any nobleman or noblewoman in this world would not jump at the chance of a member of their family being queen. It is irrelevant whether she is the second or third wife of a king or whether there are other children who come before in the line of succession - the position of queen alone advances the family, allow them gain position and prestige at court and in the larger Realm.

The idea that any Tyrell would have a childish 'all or nothing' approach to court politics is nonsense. 

Because it is quite clear that this was Renly's scheme. He wanted that Loras' father - not his grandmother! - send Loras' sister to court so she could catch Robert's eye and eventually become his queen - perhaps by first becoming his mistress, perhaps by playing the Boleyn game of only agreeing to have sex with Robert when they are married.

Olenna would not figure into such a scheme at all. She is not at court, and her later behavior makes it clear that she does not want to live at court, anyway (else she would not have abandoned Margaery to Cersei in AFfC, completely misjudging the danger Cersei posed to her granddaughter!)

Olenna opposed the Willas-Cersei match, yes. But that's it.

And this is hardly surprising considering Cersei's age and character. It is also not surprising that Mace's mother does have some influence over her son in the marriages of his children - women are known to arrange marriages in Westeros, meaning that both Lord Luthor and Mace may have occasionally (or even regularly) followed Olenna's advice in this regard. But this doesn't mean Olenna's input is followed all the time. She is not some kind of shadow ruler. She is the mother of the Lord of Highgarden who has some influence over her son, that's it.

Olenna had no voice in the decision-making process of Margaery-Joffrey. That was Mace, it was all Mace. Olenna saw/knew what her son would do, did her own investigation and decided that her son's plan and desire was more likely to work with a King Tommen than a King Joffrey. And part of the problem was Mace's nonsensical decision to make Loras a knight of the Kingsguard. Without that complication Olenna might have seen less of a complication in Joffrey. If she were running things she would have forbidden Loras to join the KG.

If Lady Olenna is not involved, then this is no "plan" -- just a hair-brained scheme by two young men who have no idea where the real power lies in Highgarden.

Lady Olenna is lying to save face, just as she lies about putting a stop to her betrothal to a Targaryen prince and how Lord Luthor died. And she even contradicts her own story of decisive, in-command Mace at the end of the conversation when she declares he will have no choice but to ask leave to bring Sansa to Highgarden, nor does he have any idea that the objective of this little vacation is to wed Sansa to his son and heir, making her the next Lady of Highgarden. Sorry, Var, but the text is crystal clear and we see these for our very selves over and over again: Mace is a boob and Lady Olenna tells him what to do.

When does Mace do exactly as he wants? When he refuses to leave KL until Margaery's trial? You don't see the hand of Lady Olenna in that? And you'll note that his preferred solution -- that King Tommen simply declare her innocent -- is rejected. Why? Because it's foolhardy, just like his notion to send all of Ronnet Connington's men to the Wall (which was actually Tarly's idea), and to let JonCon just take Storm's End, and that JonCon is an incompetent and that they can just buy out the Golden Company. Literally everything that comes out of this man's mouth is sheer idiocy. 

It is Lady Olenna's goal to make Margaeyr queen, therefore it is Mace's goal as well. If it was Lady Olenna's goal to make Margaery the wife of a swineherd, that's what Mace would want too. It was Lady Olenna who first agreed to the marriage to Renly, it was Lady Olenna who agreed to Joffrey, and it was Lady Olenna who agreed to Tommen and then insisted they be married right away and that they spend their first night together. Sorry if you don't see it yet, but you will.

Of course Mace wants Tyrion to die; he is convinced of his guilt. At no time does he insist on anything from Tywin, nor from Oberyn Martell, and if he did he was refused because the trial proceeded until Tyrion called for a TbC, and only then was Tyrion condemned.

Robert is not insisting on making Margaery his queen. The plan is to goad him into making that request, to which they would agree. Yes, many lords would love for their daughters to be second queen, but not Olenna Tyrell. This is where you are badly misreading the subtext. Lady O wants the Iron Throne, and the only way to do that is to remove Cersei and have her children declared ineligible. Fortunately, all of this can be done at the same time: convince the court that Cersei bedded her brother and you kill two birds in one stone. Mace Tyrell is utterly incapable of thinking on this level, but Lady Olenna is not.

Olenna opposed the Willas-Cersei match, and it didn't happen even though Mace wanted it. Olenna also wanted the Sansa-Willas match, and was going to get it with or without Mace's approval or even knowledge. This is not mere influence: this is manipulation to the extent of full control. There is no way you can argue that she would be able to do this regarding Willas, Mace's eldests son and heir, but not for Margaery.

If there is any text, anything at all other than the patently obvious lies of Lady Olenna herself, that suggests Mace gets his way despite his mother's wishes, please post. I've given numerous examples and posted copious text to support my conclusion, I see absolutely nothing that suggests otherwise.

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3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

If Lady Olenna is not involved, then this is no "plan" -- just a hair-brained scheme by two young men who have no idea where the real power lies in Highgarden.

Sorry, that's no argument. You can have a plan without giving a crap about Mace Tyrell's mother, and you can be mistaken about power structures - which Renly wasn't, but even if I granted that he was here, what Renly and Loras (and possibly Mace) had there was still 'a plan'.

Even if Olenna Tyrell was the actual true ruler of Highgarden treating her son publicly in the ridiculous manner he was treated in the show, then this would all still be irrelevant - because the man deciding whether Margaery would be marrying King Robert or not would be King Robert. Olenna could not have possibly opposed the Margaery marrying the king. That's simply impossible. Even a great lord couldn't have opposed that, even if he had wanted to. Because refusing the king in such manners risks angering the king - there is a reason why Cat tells Ned he has to accept Robert's offer.

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Lady Olenna is lying to save face, just as she lies about putting a stop to her betrothal to a Targaryen prince and how Lord Luthor died.

How do you know that? Have you ask Lady Olenna? Do you know how exactly the betrothal ended and whether Lady Olenna has reason to believe her version of the story or not? I don't think so. And there is nothing wrong with the way Luthor Tyrell died. He rode over a cliff - such things do happen.

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

And she even contradicts her own story of decisive, in-command Mace at the end of the conversation when she declares he will have no choice but to ask leave to bring Sansa to Highgarden, nor does he have any idea that the objective of this little vacation is to wed Sansa to his son and heir, making her the next Lady of Highgarden. Sorry, Var, but the text is crystal clear and we see these for our very selves over and over again: Mace is a boob and Lady Olenna tells him what to do.

Olenna makes it very clear that Mace wants his daughter to be queen. That's his desire, not hers. You are just ignoring the text here, and give basically no reason why you think she should be lying there - nor evidence that she does.

You also ignore Olenna's own words in the Renly thing - she makes it crystal clear that she never liked Renly, did not want to support him, and basically thought the fool was mad because of his Targaryen blood.

It is true that the Willas-Sansa match is a plan Olenna has come up with, and that she doesn't intend to tell Mace their true purpose when she asks him to demand from Tywin that she take Sansa for a visit to Highgarden. But one assumes part of the reason here is that she doesn't want Mace to appear suspicious when he asks Tywin - we can be reasonably certain that Mace would actually like the idea of marrying his heir to the presumptive heiress of Winterfell.

But this is actually a secret plan she plans to prepare (and possibly execute) behind her son's back. She doesn't run things, she uses clandestine means to get what she wants. This is actually the opposite of running things behind the scenes.

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

When does Mace do exactly as he wants? When he refuses to leave KL until Margaery's trial?

When he decides to crown and support 'King Renly' against his mother's objections. Also, when he decides to marry his daughter to King Joffrey, insisting that the Lannisters accept Loras in the Kingsguard.

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

You don't see the hand of Lady Olenna in that?

Definitely not since Olenna isn't even in the capital at that point.

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

And you'll note that his preferred solution -- that King Tommen simply declare her innocent -- is rejected. Why? Because it's foolhardy, just like his notion to send all of Ronnet Connington's men to the Wall (which was actually Tarly's idea), and to let JonCon just take Storm's End, and that JonCon is an incompetent and that they can just buy out the Golden Company. Literally everything that comes out of this man's mouth is sheer idiocy. 

Pretty much nothing of that is idiocy, actually. Mace Tyrell's interests are different from Kevan's. Mace cares more about his daughter than about King Tommen. If Margaery is not acquitted one way or another, House Tyrell will no longer support King Tommen. They might actually do their best to destroy the Lannisters then to punish them for the shit Cersei pulled.

It is not stupid to put the Faith back into place - something suggested by Tarly rather than Mace - it is also rather smart to put pressure on Kevan to ensure that Margaery gets acquitted and Cersei properly punished since King Tommen is dependent on the Tyrell armies. Mace does not act because, when push comes to shove, he could just side with Aegon/Connington or stand aside while they slaughter the Lannisters.

He can still rather easily set aside his daughter's marriage with Tommen. It has never been consummated.

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

It is Lady Olenna's goal to make Margaeyr queen, therefore it is Mace's goal as well. If it was Lady Olenna's goal to make Margaery the wife of a swineherd, that's what Mace would want too. It was Lady Olenna who first agreed to the marriage to Renly, it was Lady Olenna who agreed to Joffrey, and it was Lady Olenna who agreed to Tommen and then insisted they be married right away and that they spend their first night together. Sorry if you don't see it yet, but you will.

There is simply no textual evidence for any of them. Essentially all evidence we have that discusses those issues makes it clear that Olenna had nothing to do with any of that.

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Of course Mace wants Tyrion to die; he is convinced of his guilt. At no time does he insist on anything from Tywin, nor from Oberyn Martell, and if he did he was refused because the trial proceeded until Tyrion called for a TbC, and only then was Tyrion condemned.

Mace insisted that Tyrion be convicted. Whether he knows that his son and mother poisoned Joffrey is unclear at this point. He could know - or not.

The fact that Olenna did not tell Mace about the Willas-Sansa plan could imply that she didn't tell him about Joffrey, either, but it seems clear that Margaery, Garlan, and Alerie all knew.

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Robert is not insisting on making Margaery his queen. The plan is to goad him into making that request, to which they would agree. Yes, many lords would love for their daughters to be second queen, but not Olenna Tyrell. This is where you are badly misreading the subtext. Lady O wants the Iron Throne, and the only way to do that is to remove Cersei and have her children declared ineligible. Fortunately, all of this can be done at the same time: convince the court that Cersei bedded her brother and you kill two birds in one stone. Mace Tyrell is utterly incapable of thinking on this level, but Lady Olenna is not.

Can you give us any subtext where Olenna Redwyne makes it clear she wants the Iron Throne? And one what do you base those rather ridiculous ideas that Olenna would never have wanted her granddaughter be a second queen? 

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Olenna opposed the Willas-Cersei match, and it didn't happen even though Mace wanted it.

Mace was open to the idea, he didn't exactly 'want it'. Tywin thinks he convinced him that this was a good idea, but we don't know how accurate Tywin's assessment was. I certainly buy that Olenna helped dissuade Mace here, in part because it is quite clear Olenna never wanted Cersei at Highgarden married to her grandson after she just arranged the murder of Cersei's son. That would be both risky and bad form. But, of course, Cersei's age and character also spoke against her.

But there is also the chance that Mace himself had doubts on the matter, and was welcoming his mother's arguments against the marriage proposal, giving him the pretext to reject the idea.

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Olenna also wanted the Sansa-Willas match, and was going to get it with or without Mace's approval or even knowledge. This is not mere influence: this is manipulation to the extent of full control. There is no way you can argue that she would be able to do this regarding Willas, Mace's eldests son and heir, but not for Margaery.

You stretch things too far when you insist that Mace wouldn't have been consulted on the matter of the marriage. What we know is merely that Olenna did not intend to tell him when he asked Tywin to allow Sansa to go to Highgarden. Whether Olenna would not inform her son before the marriage actually took place is quite another matter entirely.

But here it is quite clear that Olenna is effectively doing nothing but helping her son to fulfill his own ambitions. It is Mace who wants to advance House Tyrell, not Olenna. Olenna is a Redwyne, she is from a much nobler and more ancient bloodline than her son. She doesn't really a descendant of hers on the Iron Throne or at the side of a king to feel respected. Mace's ambitions may actually go back to his father Luthor. He was supposed to marry a Targaryen princess who then became a queen at her brother's side. Being rejected like that must have been much harder for Luthor than it ever was Olenna (who likely never had much use for Daeron the Gay). And Mace happens to be the son of a mother and a father who were both rejected as spouses by the royal family. Knowing that must have been a hard pill to swallow, helping to explain the ambitions he developed for his children.

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

If there is any text, anything at all other than the patently obvious lies of Lady Olenna herself, that suggests Mace gets his way despite his mother's wishes, please post. I've given numerous examples and posted copious text to support my conclusion, I see absolutely nothing that suggests otherwise.

You have been given a lot of that already. Your reading of both Renly's scheme and Olenna's assessment of both Renly's and her son's ambitions simply make no sense in this regard. I mean, even George clarified once on his blog that in his opinion the Mace Tyrell in the dreadful show is an amalgamation of his Mace Tyrell (an ambitious yet not necessarily particularly smart or subtle lord of great power) and his Ser Harys Swyft (who is basically a spineless, cowardly moron) - making it crystal clear that George doesn't even remotely think Mace Tyrell is his mother's hand puppet.

Lady Olenna certainly has a lot of influence in Highgarden, and possibly more influence over her son than the average lady dowager of a great seat as over her son, the ruling lord. But she clearly does not run things - neither up front nor behind the scenes.

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On 6/24/2019 at 4:38 AM, Ran said:

There's zero evidence that Renly intended to become king until after Ned refused him and he fled King's Landing. If Ned had followed his advice, Ned would have been regent, a thing Renly explicitly urged on to Ned. He even tells Catelyn this. If arrangements were made for Tyrell ties to Robert's children, I really don't see Renly pushing them out of the way. 

Huh. I havent read the books in a while, he didn't ask to be named king by Ned? That was show only?

 

Huh. Book Ned was even dumber than thought.

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, Vashon said:

Huh. I havent read the books in a while, he didn't ask to be named king by Ned? That was show only?

Yep, that's just the TV show.

 

Quote

"Strike! Now, while the castle sleeps." Renly looked back at Ser Boros again and dropped his voice to an urgent whisper. "We must get Joffrey away from his mother and take him in hand. Protector or no, the man who holds the king holds the kingdom. We should seize Myrcella and Tommen as well. Once we have her children, Cersei will not dare oppose us. The council will confirm you as Lord Protector and make Joffrey your ward."

 

Edited by Ran

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