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M.Alhazred

Young Griff: What do we really know?

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18 hours ago, YeniAy_Ottoman said:

Soo it means they have different eyes color. You got what i mean :D 

(By the way, sorry english is not my mother language. I was thinking indigo ise violet and i didin't know indigo what means this why i used word blue :) )

You can speak in Turkish, it's my mother tongue too. But let me remind you again. Both Rhaegar and Aegon has indigo eyes and silver hair. Viserys, and I suspect Aerys, has lilac eyes. Daenerys has said to have violet eyes at first but wears to purple to make them seem purple, she is also said to have amethyst eyes, like Daemon II Blackfyre. So Daenerys has better chance of being a Blackfyre than Aegon. 

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Aegon's claim is based on birth right.  Being a Blackfyre probably gives him a small claim to Westeros but it falls behind that of a Trueborn Targaryen.  And if he is a Blackfyre, who sired him?  The son of a cheese monger and his Blackfyre wife will be pretty low on the ladder.  Yes, gender plays a part when everything else is equal.  In this case, it is not.  But back to the point, he has to hide his identity if he is anybody other than Prince Aegon Targaryen.  A claim to what, really.  A land of ice.  Penguins and polar bears.  He might have been better off in Essos.  

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6 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

So Daenerys has better chance of being a Blackfyre than Aegon

Not possible as the Blackfyres are extinct in the male line.

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3 hours ago, Br16 said:

Not possible as the Blackfyres are extinct in the male line.

But not in the female line, or Illyrio would lead us to believe, I am just saying Daenerys' legitimacy is more questionable than Aegon's even with Viserys around. 

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11 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

You can speak in Turkish, it's my mother tongue too. But let me remind you again. Both Rhaegar and Aegon has indigo eyes and silver hair. Viserys, and I suspect Aerys, has lilac eyes. Daenerys has said to have violet eyes at first but wears to purple to make them seem purple, she is also said to have amethyst eyes, like Daemon II Blackfyre. So Daenerys has better chance of being a Blackfyre than Aegon. 

Şu sıralar sohbet edip, yabancı sandığım kişiler hep Türk çıkıyor, her yerdeyiz maşallah. :D 

Valyria Hanelerinde ametis, çivit, mor vb. bir çok çeşitli göz renkleri var ve bu aileler içerisinde gerek evlilikler ile gerekse başka şeylerle ister istemez gen havuzu geniş oluyor. Tek bir ailede bile birden fazla göz renklerini saydın. Lakin "göz" renginden yola çıkarak da elimizde başka bir şey yok iken Daenerys'in BF olma şansı daha fazla diyemeyiz. Hikayesi uymuyor her şeyden önce. Bu arada annesinin göz renkleri Dany ile aynı olabilir. 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Aerys II had deep purple eyes.

It leads nowhere to try to use eye color to determine kinship.

King Aenys and Queen Alyssa had had the purple/lilac eyes and the silver-gold hair, yet Alysanne's eyes were blue, and her hair basically a common blond.

King Aerys II had deep purple eyes yet Rhaegar had indigo eyes, Viserys lilac eyes, and Daenerys violet eyes.

Not to mention that such color description are by no means 'objective' but subject to the color concepts the people seeing and describing them have, colored and influenced by the circumstances of such an observation (light, distance, coloring of the clothes and dyes the person observes wears and uses, etc.).

FaB makes it pretty clear that there are certain looks prevalent in the rather limited Targaryen gene pool, and those pop up again and again in the bloodline. Scions of the family don't have to be directly descended from each other to be very alike in looks and even temperament (Jaehaerys I apparently very much resembled his uncle Maegor physically; Archmaester Vaegon essentially seems to be an early version of King Aerys I; Aerea and Rhaella mirror Baela and Rhaena; King Aenys and King Viserys I seem to be similar in temperament; the same goes for Daemon and Aemond; Saera can, perhaps, be seen as a female version of Aegon the Unworthy, Alyssa Targaryen's forceful nature is also apparent in Aerea/Rhaella, Baela, and Daena the Defiant, etc.).

In that sense it is quite clear that such things as mild variations in looks in family members do not indicate that that there is no biological kinship between these family members.

Especially since we very much know that Valyrian looks are nothing special in many Free Cities, especially Lys and Volantis. There are literally thousands or tens of thousands prototypical Valyrians in those places who would be mistaken as Targaryens in Westeros - who are in truth only very, very, very distantly related to the Targaryens.

In that sense comparing Aegon's eye color to Rhaegar's or Rhaegar's siblings and parents doesn't lead anywhere.

Insofar as a Blackfyre claim is concerned:

That is pretty much dead nowadays. But even if somebody wanted to revive it - Aegon can't. His bid rest on the story that he is Rhaegar's son. That will mobilize the secret Targaryen loyalists in Westeros. He cannot do that and then suddenly change the narrative in the middle or at the end of his campaign and claim he is actually some obscure Blackfyre descendant through the female line. That would be a betrayal to the men who followed him and would drive them into Dany's or some other camp. Not to mention that it might very well cause Jon Connington to strangle Aegon with his stone hands...

Edited by Lord Varys

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7 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

But not in the female line, or Illyrio would lead us to believe, I am just saying Daenerys' legitimacy is more questionable than Aegon's even with Viserys around. 

Still seems implausible to me.

Reccomend @Lord Varys detailed reply above.

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Br16 said:

Still seems implausible to me.

Reccomend @Lord Varys detailed reply above.

Nobody in the books ever questions Daenerys' identity, parentage, or legitimacy. In fact, the Epilogue of ADwD has Kevan Lannister hammer home the fact for all the world to hear that Daenerys Targaryen is the real deal - a true scion and descendant of King Aerys II with a legitimate claim to the Iron Throne.

People might vilify Dany in the future, they might oppose her attempt to claim the throne, but they won't be able to say she is not who she says she is - just that who she say she is doesn't give her the right to take her father's throne - some might say that because she is female, some because Aegon has a better claim, some because she is effectively a foreigner with a savage army of Dothraki, some because she doesn't follow the Seven the way Aegon does, etc.).

Edited by Lord Varys

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11 hours ago, YeniAy_Ottoman said:

Şu sıralar sohbet edip, yabancı sandığım kişiler hep Türk çıkıyor, her yerdeyiz maşallah. :D 

Valyria Hanelerinde ametis, çivit, mor vb. bir çok çeşitli göz renkleri var ve bu aileler içerisinde gerek evlilikler ile gerekse başka şeylerle ister istemez gen havuzu geniş oluyor. Tek bir ailede bile birden fazla göz renklerini saydın. Lakin "göz" renginden yola çıkarak da elimizde başka bir şey yok iken Daenerys'in BF olma şansı daha fazla diyemeyiz. Hikayesi uymuyor her şeyden önce. Bu arada annesinin göz renkleri Dany ile aynı olabilir. 

 

 

Belki, ama Daenerys Fırtınada Doğan bana pek inandırıcı gelmiyor çünkü Westeros daki hiç kimse bu fırtınayı hatırlamıyor. Birde Barristan Daenerys in göz rengini Ashara'ya benzetiyor Rhaella'ya değil. Sadece Aegon'un göz rengi Rhaegar ile aynı iken herkesin Aegon'a fake demesine gıcık oluyorum, demeyin kardeşim işte çocuk indigo gözlü gümüş rengi saçlı, daha ne istiyorsun moduna giriyorum çok çabuk. 

Now that doesn't mean I actually believe Daenerys IS a Blackfyre, I don't. I think she is Rhaegar's daughter actually, and Tattered Prince is the Blackfyre for me. And I don't think the sword of Blackfyre or House of Blackfyre has any importance to our story. Except Tattered Prince Mummer's Dragon thing from Quaithe's warning. 

 

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@Lord Varys I don't believe Daenerys is Blackfyre lol, I think Tattered Prince might be a descendant, I am just bitter with everyone calling Aegon a fake when we are told Varys and Illyrio become famous due to stealing things and then returning them, but accepting everything about Daenerys, even when that storm never said to happen by Stannis and Cressen or anyone really. 

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2 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

@Lord Varys I don't believe Daenerys is Blackfyre lol, I think Tattered Prince might be a descendant, I am just bitter with everyone calling Aegon a fake when we are told Varys and Illyrio become famous due to stealing things and then returning them, but accepting everything about Daenerys, even when that storm never said to happen by Stannis and Cressen or anyone really. 

Neither Stannis nor Cressen were there. But we know that the Royal Fleet anchored at Dragon Stone ceased to exist. Stannis was building ships to deal with that said fleet. Without that fleet, Stannis didn't need to build its own.

Nobody questions the legitimacy of Daenerys, really. She has dragons, the trademark of the Targaryens.

Aegon on the other hand, has none. And we see Varys (and Illyrio) trying to work out the events so that people are too busy to really question his parentage.

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On 7/9/2019 at 9:53 AM, Jova Snow said:

Belki, ama Daenerys Fırtınada Doğan bana pek inandırıcı gelmiyor çünkü Westeros daki hiç kimse bu fırtınayı hatırlamıyor. Birde Barristan Daenerys in göz rengini Ashara'ya benzetiyor Rhaella'ya değil. Sadece Aegon'un göz rengi Rhaegar ile aynı iken herkesin Aegon'a fake demesine gıcık oluyorum, demeyin kardeşim işte çocuk indigo gözlü gümüş rengi saçlı, daha ne istiyorsun moduna giriyorum çok çabuk. 

 

Yine de ailedeki herkesin göz rengi farklı iken Dany'nin göz rengi Ashara'ya benziyor diye böyle düşünmek de doğru değil. Jorah da kendi karısına benzetiyor. Fırtın kimse tarafından hatırlanmıyor olabilir, fırtına sırasında orada kimler vardı, onlara bakmak gerek; bütün Targaryen filosunun battığını biliyoruz, bu da Stannis'in işini kolaylaştırmıştı.  Yine tek bir göz rengi yüzünden Aegon kesin gerçek demek de doğru değil. Targlar baskın genlere sahip değil, Barth gibi... Bu yüzden onlarda işe yarayan bunlarda işe yaramıyor yahut Starklar için bile geçerli olamıyor.

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He has the look, a few people of prominence backing him (and likely to grow), financial backing, a growing military, and is conquering land. At the end of the day it does not matter, "Power resides where people believe it resides". If he takes the throne he will be Aegon VI.

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Posted (edited)

Legitimate Targaryen or not, it does not matter. We’re talking about a war torn nation here with no government at this point, big thanks to Varys. The Tyrell-Lannister alliance has crumbled and the throne is now up for grabs, more so than it ever has been in Westeros history. I truly think anyone with the military strength could take the Throne and install themselves as ruler, for atleast a while. 

What matters most at this point isn’t Aegon’s dynastic legitimacy, it is who he decides to marry that will ultimately determine his popular legitimacy and/or fate. 

If he claims to be Rhaegar’s son and that goes unquestioned, then he has no need to marry Arianne; Dorne is a natural ally and will aid him regardless. If he marries Margery somehow, that will probably be his surefire way to quickly having powerful allies and a unified South/secured King’s Landing. If he marries Sansa, which I believe to be his best option, he will have unified The Vale, Dorne, The North, and a strong contingent of the Southern lord’s (Hightower, Rowan, possible Tarly) but not the Tyrells so much. He would have to negotiate Tyrell fealty more or less and perhaps oust them all together, but I don’t see them being much of an issue. I believe things will naturally work themselves out after a battle or two. As for The Westerlands, they are more or less moot at this point. Keeping Dorne in the fold is key, however, and they must not doubt Aegon’s parentage at all so he must adhere to that...perhaps offer them a marriage to his first born son and heir, just to keep things happy. With that said, Aegon must never disclose to anyone, at any point, that he might not be Rhaegar’s son. That secret will need to go with him to his grave.

If Aegon decides to wait for Dany, then he sacrifices a strong, early unification of Westeros on the basis that he won’t be fighting dragons and foreign savages down the road. But then comes the issue of who’s going to actually rule Westeros; Dany will likely demand Aegon to be king consort, if she doesn’t destroy him first and deny him altogether. Too much risk for Aegon.

So with that said, whom Aegon marries will be the biggest factor in determining his reign; his legitimacy or lack there of has no real weight at this point, the Westeros lord’s do, however, and he needs them to stand behind him.

Edited by Ser Dips A lot

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If you want a great explanation of the Blackfyre theory, go watch Alt Shift X's video about Varys. Highly recommend. 

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On 7/6/2019 at 12:35 AM, M.Alhazred said:

Is he really a Targ or just posing as one? Varys must know that Westros would never accept a BlackFyre king and so this story was concocted.

He's a black dragon. There was always going to be a second dance, and the George developed the Blackfyre backstory to give Daenerys someone to fight.

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