Melisandre, Davos & Edric

[Hugorfonics]

 

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Her red eyes blazed like twin fires, and seemed to stare deep into his soul. "You do not believe me. You doubt the truth of R'hllor even now . . . yet have served him all the same, and will serve him again.

And will serve him again.... But what has Davos done except rescue Edric from the flames? Surely thats not what Meli was referring to. Right?!?

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Melisandre went to him, her red lips parted, her ruby throbbing. "Give me this boy," she whispered, "and I will give you your kingdom."

"He can't," said Davos. "Edric Storm is gone."

"Gone?" Stannis turned. "What do you mean, gone?"

"He is aboard a Lyseni galley, safely out to sea." Davos watched Melisandre's pale, heart-shaped face. He saw the flicker of dismay there, the sudden uncertainty. She did not see it!

She did not see it!

Wow, nice one Ser. You tricked her. Right... Right?

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it was Melisandre who told me to send for you when Ser Axell wished to give you to R'hllor." He smiled thinly. "Does that surprise you?"

"Yes. She knows I am no friend to her or her red god."

"But you are a friend to me. She knows that as well." He beckoned Davos closer. "The boy is sick. Maester Pylos has been leeching him."

"The boy?" His thoughts went to his Devan, the king's squire. "My son, sire?"

"Devan? A good boy. He has much of you in him. It is Robert's bastard who is sick, the boy we took at Storm's End." Edric Storm.

"I spoke with him in Aegon's Garden."

"As she wished. As she saw." Stannis sighed. "Did the boy charm you?

"As she wished. As she saw. Did the boy charm you?"

Ok, what the hell?  Melisandre wished for Edric to charm Davos and didnt arrest him until Davos had the chance to be charmed, so... What?

She must have seen it, hell, wished it. The sacrifice of Edric was nothing but a bluff and scheme. But, why?

Thoughts? Theories? 

Heres some more quotes from Meli about Seaworth

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In truth, he was here because Melisandre had asked for him. The four eldest sons of Davos Seaworth had perished in the battle on the Blackwater, when the king's fleet had been consumed by green fire. Devan was the fifthborn and safer here with her than at the king's side. Lord Davos would not thank her for it, no more than the boy himself, but it seemed to her that Seaworth had suffered enough grief. Misguided as he was, his loyalty to Stannis could not be doubted. She had seen that in her flames.

So Devan is with Meli because she requested that, but why? Hes just a boy with a common face, but a boy, no one would ever confuse him with his father... Right? Lol

Quote

"The bones help," said Melisandre. "The bones remember. The strongest glamors are built of such things. A dead man's boots, a hank of hair, a bag of fingerbones. With whispered words and prayer, a man's shadow can be drawn forth from such and draped about another like a cloak. The wearer's essence does not change, only his seeming."

Im at a loss

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

And will serve him again.... But what has Davos done except rescue Edric from the flames? Surely thats not what Meli was referring to. Right?!?

I always thought she was talking about Davos smuggling her into the castle to birth her shadow baby when they killed Cortnay Penrose right here. I could be wrong though. 

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

"As she wished. As she saw. Did the boy charm you?"

Ok, what the hell?  Melisandre wished for Edric to charm Davos and didnt arrest him until Davos had the chance to be charmed, so... What?

She must have seen it, hell, wished it. The sacrifice of Edric was nothing but a bluff and scheme. But, why?

Thoughts? Theories? 

It's hard telling what Mel is up to. Maybe Mel told Stannis this would happen & Stannis didn't believe her so he let it play out? I'm not sure. She is tricksy though. 

Another thing I've always wondered is why she wants to sacrifice the lad anyway? The leeches seem to do the trick when they want Joff, Robb, & Renly dead - so why not keep the boy alive & leech him? They would get much more "king's blood" that way than if they burned him. 

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

So Devan is with Meli because she requested that, but why? Hes just a boy with a common face, but a boy, no one would ever confuse him with his father... Right? Lol

I think Mel genuinely wants to keep him safe. She thinks Davos has suffered enough & she knows he blames her for the death of his other sons. She also knows that Davos is loyal to Stannis, so she wants to keep him around. So she requests the boy so that he is kept safe & Davos doesn't have to worry, or has to worry less, about losing him too. 

 

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Im at a loss

Right. Let's not forget Davos is no longer in possession of his finger bones either. He supposedly lost them in the BoBW - I don't see how Melisandre could have gotten them from him but this is awful coincidental. She could stir up all kinds of trouble if she could glamour someone to look like Davos - which the bones would apparently allow her to do.

[John Suburbs]

33 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Another thing I've always wondered is why she wants to sacrifice the lad anyway? The leeches seem to do the trick when they want Joff, Robb, & Renly dead - so why not keep the boy alive & leech him? They would get much more "king's blood" that way than if they burned him. 

His leeched blood is useful, but she believes that if she burns him alive it will wake the stone dragon, which would make Stannis all but invincible.

[John Suburbs]

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

And will serve him again.... But what has Davos done except rescue Edric from the flames? Surely thats not what Meli was referring to. Right?!?

She did not see it!

Wow, nice one Ser. You tricked her. Right... Right?

"As she wished. As she saw. Did the boy charm you?"

Ok, what the hell?  Melisandre wished for Edric to charm Davos and didnt arrest him until Davos had the chance to be charmed, so... What?

She must have seen it, hell, wished it. The sacrifice of Edric was nothing but a bluff and scheme. But, why?

Thoughts? Theories? 

Heres some more quotes from Meli about Seaworth

So Devan is with Meli because she requested that, but why? Hes just a boy with a common face, but a boy, no one would ever confuse him with his father... Right? Lol

Im at a loss

Remember, Mel doesn't choose what she wants to see, but is given visions only of what Rhollor (Bloodraven?) wants her to see. So while it suited him (it) to show her visions of Edric charming Davos, it did not suit to show her visions of him removing Edric from Dragonstone. And it was right after that, you'll recall, that both Stannis and Mel became convinced that the real war was north of the Wall, which may or may not have happened had Mel woken the stone dragon with Edric's kingsblood.

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I always thought she was talking about Davos smuggling her into the castle to birth her shadow baby when they killed Cortnay Penrose right here. I could be wrong though. 

The first 3 quotes are from ASOS, the last two ADWD. Penrose bit the dust in ACOK. 

Hence "(you) have served him" is referring to Penrose while "and will serve him again" is referring to something after Davos was released from jail and made Hand

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It's hard telling what Mel is up to. Maybe Mel told Stannis this would happen & Stannis didn't believe her so he let it play out? I'm not sure. She is tricksy though. 

Possibly. But I tend to think that Mel has Stannis in the dark, like (probably) the whole Mance/Rattleshirt situation

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Another thing I've always wondered is why she wants to sacrifice the lad anyway? The leeches seem to do the trick when they want Joff, Robb, & Renly dead - so why not keep the boy alive & leech him? They would get much more "king's blood" that way than if they burned him. 

Im not sure if the leeches did actually anything. As Stannis says this seems like the work of Frey not R'hllor. Furthermore when asked if the leeches will work Mel responded "it will and it will not".

I think the 3 leeches were just proof of Mels magic (but really just proof that she can see into the future) so Stannis would be convinced to burn Edric.... Though im pretty sure this was never her actual intention

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I think Mel genuinely wants to keep him safe. She thinks Davos has suffered enough & she knows he blames her for the death of his other sons. She also knows that Davos is loyal to Stannis, so she wants to keep him around. So she requests the boy so that he is kept safe & Davos doesn't have to worry, or has to worry less, about losing him too. 

Lol, I dont think that. I think she has a plan for him like she had a plan for Mance

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Right. Let's not forget Davos is no longer in possession of his finger bones either. He supposedly lost them in the BoBW - I don't see how Melisandre could have gotten them from him but this is awful coincidental. She could stir up all kinds of trouble if she could glamour someone to look like Davos - which the bones would apparently allow her to do.

Awfully coincidental. I really see zero ways of Meli getting Davos' burnt bag of bones from the bottom of Blackwater Bay; However maybe any bag of fingerbones would do

It's not like its difficult to "glamor" Davos, Wyman did it (kinda) and having Devan in Melis possession is, how do we say, awfully coincidental

39 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

His leeched blood is useful, but she believes that if she burns him alive it will wake the stone dragon, which would make Stannis all but invincible.

Allegedly

31 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Remember, Mel doesn't choose what she wants to see, but is given visions only of what Rhollor (Bloodraven?) wants her to see. 

Mel kinda chooses what to see, for example she always looks at threats to her life first. Or what Stannis or Jon ask later

31 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

. And it was right after that, you'll recall, that both Stannis and Mel became convinced that the real war was north of the Wall, which may or may not have happened had Mel woken the stone dragon with Edric's kingsblood.

Nah, before. Stannis sees the Others after Blackwater while Davos is missing in action

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

His leeched blood is useful, but she believes that if she burns him alive it will wake the stone dragon, which would make Stannis all but invincible.

Right but why? I get that burning is part of the ritual - they burn the leeches too. But if what is important is that it be King's blood they are burning & they need more of it to make bigger magic, which is what is sounds like to me is why she wants to burn the ENTIRE person, thus burning all of the king's blood at once it just seems like it would be better to keep him alive & leech his blood & bottle it until they have lots of it. 

 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Remember, Mel doesn't choose what she wants to see, but is given visions only of what Rhollor (Bloodraven?) wants her to see. So while it suited him (it) to show her visions of Edric charming Davos, it did not suit to show her visions of him removing Edric from Dragonstone. And it was right after that, you'll recall, that both Stannis and Mel became convinced that the real war was north of the Wall, which may or may not have happened had Mel woken the stone dragon with Edric's kingsblood.

I agree Mel doesn't always have power over what is being shown to her but she does seem to be able to exert some guidance over it. She doesn't always think R'hllor is showing her what she asked to see but that can just be her misinterpreting the visions ("When I ask R'hllor to show me AA reborn he will only show me SNOW" - paraphrasing here) 

36 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Hence "(you) have served him" is referring to Penrose while "and will serve him again" is referring to something after Davos was released from jail and made Hand

Yeah, that's what I gathered too. Maybe the "will serve him again" hasn't happened yet. 

36 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Possibly. But I tend to think that Mel has Stannis in the dark, like (probably) the whole Mance/Rattleshirt situation

Oh for sure. I think she has him in the dark about lots of things. 

 

37 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Im not sure if the leeches did actually anything. As Stannis says this seems like the work of Frey not R'hllor. Furthermore when asked if the leeches will work Mel responded "it will and it will not".

I think the 3 leeches were just proof of Mels magic (but really just proof that she can see into the future) so Stannis would be convinced to burn Edric.... Though im pretty sure this was never her actual intention

Yeah maybe not but if we take her at her word - which is what she is asking Stannis to do, you have to wonder why Stannis doesn't come to this conclusion also. Like why did Stannis never say - ok you need king's blood? leech him. You need LOTS of it, leech him lots. 

38 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Lol, I dont think that. I think she has a plan for him like she had a plan for Mance

It's definitely possible but I don't think she is inherently evil, she believes she is doing what is right for the greater good & thus feels justified. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that her plan for Devan is just to keep him close & safe so that she can keep Davos on her side - or as much on her side as he is. 

 

40 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Awfully coincidental. I really see zero ways of Meli getting Davos' burnt bag of bones from the bottom of Blackwater Bay; However maybe any bag of fingerbones would do

I don't see any way for her to have gotten them either but I don't think any bag of bones will do. She seems to need an article related to the person she is trying to glamour - the dead man's boots, a hank of hair etc. If she had someone else's fingerbones she would be glamouring someone into someone other than Davos. 

42 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

t's not like its difficult to "glamor" Davos, Wyman did it (kinda) and having Devan in Melis possession is, how do we say, awfully coincidental

I don't think it's necessarily difficult but there are certain things she would need to do it. Wyman didn't do it magically though. Mel would need something of Davos's to glamour someone into him. Maybe his son qualifies as something of his but then it's odd for her to mention the bag of fingerbones in the context she did if she doesn't have them or has something else that will do the trick. 

 

[John Suburbs]

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Allegedly

Mel kinda chooses what to see, for example she always looks at threats to her life first. Or what Stannis or Jon ask later

Nah, before. Stannis sees the Others after Blackwater while Davos is missing in action

Allegedly or not, that's what Mel believes and that is why she wanted to burn Edric rather than continue siphoning his blood.

Mel asks for visions of threats to her person first, followed by other things, but that doesn't necessarily mean Rhllor provides them. Rhllor shows her what he wants her to see.

Stannis sees visions of the Battle at the First, but he doesn't know what they are or what to make of them. He doesn't decide to sail for the Wall until Davos shows him the letter from the Nights Watch, after Edric has left Dragonstone.

[John Suburbs]

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Right but why? I get that burning is part of the ritual - they burn the leeches too. But if what is important is that it be King's blood they are burning & they need more of it to make bigger magic, which is what is sounds like to me is why she wants to burn the ENTIRE person, thus burning all of the king's blood at once it just seems like it would be better to keep him alive & leech his blood & bottle it until they have lots of it. 

 

I agree Mel doesn't always have power over what is being shown to her but she does seem to be able to exert some guidance over it. She doesn't always think R'hllor is showing her what she asked to see but that can just be her misinterpreting the visions ("When I ask R'hllor to show me AA reborn he will only show me SNOW" - paraphrasing here) 

 

By that logic, she shouldn't have to burn anyone to get fair winds north or for any other reason. To wake a dragon, you obviously need more than blood, you need a life, or, more accurately, a death. Only death can pay for life. Dany gave at least one life to the fire that woke her dragons, and if Dothraki beliefs about death are taken into account, we could argue that she gave three lives.

Rhollor is the one making the decision as to what is shown and what is not, not Mel. She can ask for whatever she wants, but she cannot demand anything from a god. And that's even if she would have any reason to ask about the whereabouts of Edric. Most likely she didn't because she didn't have any reason to think he was anywhere but Dragonstone.

[Hugorfonics]

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

("When I ask R'hllor to show me AA reborn he will only show me SNOW" - paraphrasing here) 

(Lol such a good line)

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah, that's what I gathered too. Maybe the "will serve him again" hasn't happened yet. 

Word, so heres my line of thinking. Either

a. Rescuing Edric is serving R'hllor. Although, how? If Storm has to be in Essos why didnt Meli send him herself?

b. Davos tells Stannis the Nights Watch needs help thusly getting Stannis to fight the Others. However, Stannis isnt fighting the Others, and Davos was just serving the realm and NW not R'hllor.

c. Like you said something Davos will do in the future. But my boys up North, looking for Baby Stark

d. D for Davos, or actually D for Devan. Now obviously even a glamored up Devan is not Davos but still, Meli often talks in riddles

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah maybe not but if we take her at her word - which is what she is asking Stannis to do, you have to wonder why Stannis doesn't come to this conclusion also. Like why did Stannis never say - ok you need king's blood? leech him. You need LOTS of it, leech him lots. 

The kingsblood is an important part of magic (like Drogo) but I think the sacrifice part (like Drogos horse) is the more important part

Quote

Stannis ground his teeth again. "I never asked for this crown. Gold is cold and heavy on the head, but so long as I am the king, I have a duty . . . If I must sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark . . . Sacrifice . . . is never easy, Davos. Or it is no true sacrifice. Tell him, my lady."

Melisandre said, "Azor Ahai tempered Lightbringer with the heart's blood of his own beloved wife. If a man with a thousand cows gives one to god, that is nothing. But a man who offers the only cow he owns . . . "

 

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 It's definitely possible but I don't think she is inherently evil, she believes she is doing what is right for the greater good & thus feels justified. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that her plan for Devan is just to keep him close & safe so that she can keep Davos on her side - or as much on her side as he is. 

I dont believe Mel is inherently evil either. Its certainly possible that Mel saved Devan to spare Davos greif, after all thats more or less what she think in her pov.

However, Im skeptical.

Also Mel thinks that Davos wont thank her for it, so she's not trying to keep Davos on her side

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't see any way for her to have gotten them either but I don't think any bag of bones will do. She seems to need an article related to the person she is trying to glamour - the dead man's boots, a hank of hair etc. If she had someone else's fingerbones she would be glamouring someone into someone other than Davos. 

I don't think it's necessarily difficult but there are certain things she would need to do it. Wyman didn't do it magically though. Mel would need something of Davos's to glamour someone into him. Maybe his son qualifies as something of his but then it's odd for her to mention the bag of fingerbones in the context she did if she doesn't have them or has something else that will do the trick. 

Word. Lots of mystery here, but I believe its too coincidental to not be on purpose

26 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Allegedly or not, that's what Mel believes and that is why she wanted to burn Edric rather than continue siphoning his blood.

Then why did she "wish" for Edric to "charm" Davos?

26 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Stannis sees visions of the Battle at the First, but he doesn't know what they are or what to make of them. 

He does. He knows theyre his enemy and would stake his kingdom upon it

[kissdbyfire]

6 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I always thought she was talking about Davos smuggling her into the castle to birth her shadow baby when they killed Cortnay Penrose right here. I could be wrong though. 

Agreed. 

As to Stannis telling Davos that Mel saw and wished for Edric to charm Davos, it’s a con IMO. Not sure what she’s playing at, but pretty certain there will be a trick or something somewhere. Yeah, not very helpful, I know. 

But if we think about it, it’s clear Mel has powers, but she’s a sort of con artist as well. For instance, I don’t think the leeches did anything, I don’t for a second believe they played a part in Robb’s, Joffrey’s, and Balon’s deaths. I think Mel  foresaw those deaths, and then spun the tale just to [further] convince Stannis that she is that powerful. So if Mel is saying she wished that Davos would be charmed by Edric, it’s because it is beneficial to her somehow. 

 

[Hugorfonics]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Agreed. 

As to Stannis telling Davos that Mel saw and wished for Edric to charm Davos, it’s a con IMO. Not sure what she’s playing at, but pretty certain there will be a trick or something somewhere. Yeah, not very helpful, I know. 

But if we think about it, it’s clear Mel has powers, but she’s a sort of con artist as well. For instance, I don’t think the leeches did anything, I don’t for a second believe they played a part in Robb’s, Joffrey’s, and Balon’s deaths. I think Mel  foresaw those deaths, and then spun the tale just to [further] convince Stannis that she is that powerful. So if Mel is saying she wished that Davos would be charmed by Edric, it’s because it is beneficial to her somehow. 

 

Right. I dont think Mel has the power to kill 3 kings nor wake stone dragons. She played Davos like Petyr played Ned. I just have no idea why lol

[The Sleeper]

I think it is part of her grandstanding as a matter of policy. That everything unfolds as part of her design and that sort of thing. 

In particular with Edric I believe she has read or seen about a royal sacrifice of a child that is part of Azor Ahai's ascension that she wants to bring about. In order to achieve that with Edric Storm she would need to set the stage in advance quite a bit. Having Edric charm people would not endear him to Stannis and I wouldn't be surprised if she has told the latter that Edric is a potential threat to his legacy and birthright. 

[John Suburbs]

19 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Then why did she "wish" for Edric to "charm" Davos?

He does. He knows theyre his enemy and would stake his kingdom upon it

Most likely, because "Rhllor" is setting all this up. He knows Mel will want to burn Edric, but that would only delay or prevent Stannis from coming north. So give he gives her a vision of Edric charming Davos, which she makes happen even though she doesn't know why this is important, then he hides the vision of Davos rescuing Edric, which then creates the circumstances for Stannis to come north. Why bother do it this way rather than just show Mel that the war is in the north? Who knows? Ask Rhllor, I guess. Ultimately, it's not Mel he has to convince, but Stannis.

Stannis' vision, in fact, is probably how he is trying to get him to come north, but it's not getting through. Stannis may know this is the enemy, but he doesn't know where they are or that he needs to set aside his quest for the Iron Throne in order to confront them. Rhllor finally communicates this through Davos, but only if the distraction posed by Edric is removed first.

But I dunno, I'm literally making this up as I go along.

[The Mother of The Others]

If we believe in Mel, then the human sacrifice will do more than the leaches that got rid of the pretenders.  The burning kid will elevate stannis to the throne, seal the deal.    So....she's stalling.  Keeping the kid thing from happening, just as Jon has been flipping kids to prevent Mel from having the sacrificial blood she requires.   Nobody wants this shit to happen.   Because.... Mel has doubts in whom she wants to elevate?!?!.    She's been looking more to Jon.

 

I don't know the timing of these things, but Davos also brought in the White Harbor troops to help the cause.   Could that be him serving Rhoool.  Or something yet to come.

If she's stalling, we'll probably see the right time for the sacrifice arrive and then she'll either have a suitable sacrifice or not, drop Stannis or not (Jon being dead may help decide it, and his later raising, if that even happens, could leave Melisandre with a huge uh-oh look on her face.  "I've made a terrible mistake"- - - Arrested Development's Job.)

[Hugorfonics]

5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Most likely, because "Rhllor" is setting all this up. He knows Mel will want to burn Edric, but that would only delay or prevent Stannis from coming north. So give he gives her a vision of Edric charming Davos, which she makes happen even though she doesn't know why this is important, then he hides the vision of Davos rescuing Edric, which then creates the circumstances for Stannis to come north. Why bother do it this way rather than just show Mel that the war is in the north? Who knows? Ask Rhllor, I guess. Ultimately, it's not Mel he has to convince, but Stannis.

Ok, so I dont think hes a thing. Certainly not like the cosmic figure at war or whatever (im an atheist though so...) I mean the idea that God is a jealous God doesn't make much sense to me ( though the religion I was taught as a child did kinda said that)

As far as him being a human, im pretty confident hes not. Especially Bloodraven as R'hloor likes to burn trees and thats what Brynden is. I mean, this is a really old religion where as Brynden is only pretty old.

Im not gonna say that weird shit doesnt happen to me and I do question the patterns of the universe witnessed by my own eyes, probably happens to everyone. Many people (assumingly) use religion to answer those questions while im left clueless. But magic is way more interesting then deja vu or whatever, and I believe some of these gods in asoiaf are the answer to magic.

(Not to derail my thread, but; Old Gods are different though, maybe, lol. I mean whats the definition of a God? All seeing, all knowing. Sounds like Bran, (someday) )

5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Stannis' vision, in fact, is probably how he is trying to get him to come north, but it's not getting through. Stannis may know this is the enemy, but he doesn't know where they are or that he needs to set aside his quest for the Iron Throne in order to confront them. Rhllor finally communicates this through Davos, but only if the distraction posed by Edric is removed first.

So heres the excpert

Quote

. . . but I trust none of them as I trust you, my lord of Rainwood. You will be my Hand. It is you I want beside me for the battle."

Another battle will be the end of all of us, thought Davos. Lord Alester saw that much true enough. "Your Grace asked for honest counsel. In honesty then . . . we lack the strength for another battle against the Lannisters."

"It is the great battle His Grace is speaking of," said a woman's voice, rich with the accents of the east. Melisandre stood at the door in her red silks and shimmering satins, holding a covered silver dish in her hands. "These little wars are no more than a scuffle of children before what is to come. The one whose name may not be spoken is marshaling his power, Davos Seaworth, a power fell and evil and strong beyond measure. Soon comes the cold, and the night that never ends." She placed the silver dish on the Painted Table. "Unless true men find the courage to fight it. Men whose hearts are fire."

Stannis stared at the silver dish. "She has shown it to me, Lord Davos. In the flames."

"You saw it, sire?" It was not like Stannis Baratheon to lie about such a thing.

"With mine own eyes. After the battle, when I was lost to despair, the Lady Melisandre bid me gaze into the hearthfire. The chimney was drawing strongly, and bits of ash were rising from the fire. I stared at them, feeling half a fool, but she bid me look deeper, and . . . the ashes were white, rising in the updraft, yet all at once it seemed as if they were falling. Snow, I thought. Then the sparks in the air seemed to circle, to become a ring of torches, and I was looking through the fire down on some high hill in a forest. The cinders had become men in black behind the torches, and there were shapes moving through the snow. For all the heat of the fire, I felt a cold so terrible I shivered, and when I did the sight was gone, the fire but a fire once again. But what I saw was real, I'd stake my kingdom on it."

How could they not know its up north, where else would it snow and men wearing black run around but past the wall? Stannis knew what his duty his, but if he can’t battle Lannister what can he do against Satan? However Aemons letter was the sign that Stannis needed. Stannis nor Mel never saw the letter, according to Pylos, and Florent dismissed the notion. The only reason Davos didn’t show Stannis the letter immediately is because he was scheming to save Edrics life. This is actually kinda funny, reminds me of this,

Quote

Why do you think I abandoned Dragonstone and sailed to the Wall, Lord Snow?"

"I am no lord, sire. You came because we sent for you, I hope. Though I could not say why you took so long about it."

Surprisingly, Stannis smiled at that. "You're bold enough to be a Stark. Yes, I should have come sooner. If not for my Hand, I might not have come at all.

When in actuality, Stannis took so long precisely because of his Hand.

5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

But I dunno, I'm literally making this up as I go along.

Word, always good to brainstorm here

[Hugorfonics]

3 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said:

If we believe in Mel, then the human sacrifice will do more than the leaches that got rid of the pretenders.  The burning kid will elevate stannis to the throne, seal the deal.    So....she's stalling.  Keeping the kid thing from happening, just as Jon has been flipping kids to prevent Mel from having the sacrificial blood she requires.   Nobody wants this shit to happen.   Because.... Mel has doubts in whom she wants to elevate?!?!.    She's been looking more to Jon.

Thats interesting. I mean, Im pretty sure, that at least in asos, Mel was a believer is Stannis. Now, not so much. But this stalling business is one I could get behind. 

Perhaps taking her time to corrupt Stannis? If the man is willing to kill his nephew for a stoned dragon then thats the Azor Ahai for her. Thats not bad.

3 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said:

If she's stalling, we'll probably see the right time for the sacrifice arrive and then she'll either have a suitable sacrifice or not, drop Stannis or not (Jon being dead may help decide it, and his later raising, if that even happens, could leave Melisandre with a huge uh-oh look on her face.  "I've made a terrible mistake"- - - Arrested Development's Job.)

Poor Shireen, I always thought shed be safe because Stannis already azor ahaid his lovely Renly, but I guess deep down I knew shed be in for it

3 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said:

(Jon being dead may help decide it, and his later raising, if that even happens, could leave Melisandre with a huge uh-oh look on her face.  "I've made a terrible mistake"- - - Arrested Development's Job.)

Lmao. Hello darkness my old friend... (Gob with a g)

 

Eta. Forgot to talk about Rickon.

Im pretty sure Davos is gettint played by Glover and Manderly whom have no intention of supporting Stannis as king, especially when Rickon is in their possession. So I doubt that finding Rickon is R'hllor work

[John Suburbs]

On 10/25/2019 at 4:49 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Ok, so I dont think hes a thing. Certainly not like the cosmic figure at war or whatever (im an atheist though so...) I mean the idea that God is a jealous God doesn't make much sense to me ( though the religion I was taught as a child did kinda said that)

As far as him being a human, im pretty confident hes not. Especially Bloodraven as R'hloor likes to burn trees and thats what Brynden is. I mean, this is a really old religion where as Brynden is only pretty old.

Im not gonna say that weird shit doesnt happen to me and I do question the patterns of the universe witnessed by my own eyes, probably happens to everyone. Many people (assumingly) use religion to answer those questions while im left clueless. But magic is way more interesting then deja vu or whatever, and I believe some of these gods in asoiaf are the answer to magic.

(Not to derail my thread, but; Old Gods are different though, maybe, lol. I mean whats the definition of a God? All seeing, all knowing. Sounds like Bran, (someday) )

So heres the excpert

How could they not know its up north, where else would it snow and men wearing black run around but past the wall? Stannis knew what his duty his, but if he can’t battle Lannister what can he do against Satan? However Aemons letter was the sign that Stannis needed. Stannis nor Mel never saw the letter, according to Pylos, and Florent dismissed the notion. The only reason Davos didn’t show Stannis the letter immediately is because he was scheming to save Edrics life. This is actually kinda funny, reminds me of this,

When in actuality, Stannis took so long precisely because of his Hand.

Word, always good to brainstorm here

Lol, you must have been brought up with the Old Testament.

Like I said, Stannis sees the visions, and logic would dictate that this is happening up north, but it doesn't sink in to either him or Mel that they need to confront this right way -- not until Davos starts reading the letter from Aemon:

Quote

Stannis slid Lightbringer from its scabbard. Its glow filled the chamber.  "Say what you will, but say it quickly." The muscles in the king's neck stood out like chords.

Davos fumbled inside his cloak and drew out the crinkled sheet of parchment. It seemed a thin and flimsy thing, yet it was all the shield he had. "A King's Hand should be able to read and write. Maester Pylos has been teaching me." He smoothed the letter flat upon his knee and began to read by the light of the magic sword.

And as your quote from Stannis shows, he would not have ventured north if not for Davos, and Davos would not have alerted Stannis to where his true duty lay if not for the rescue of Edric, and he likely would not have rescued Edric had he not met the boy and been charmed by him, which probably would not have happened if Mel hadn't seen it in her flames . . .

So whether Rhllor is real or not or whether he is Bloodraven or someone else, it seems to me that the whole sequence of events was designed to bring Stannis north. Either that, or the gods are just making it up as they go along as well.

[Hugorfonics]

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Lol, you must have been brought up with the Old Testament.

Like I said, Stannis sees the visions, and logic would dictate that this is happening up north, but it doesn't sink in to either him or Mel that they need to confront this right way -- not until Davos starts reading the letter from Aemon:

Lol, word

Right. I mean, even if Stannis had to confront this issue immediately Im not sure he could, hes no Slayer. 

Thats probably where some of this stone dragon comes into play. Its not for Roberts legacy but Westeros survival. Like what can some half burnt Florents do against Satan?

So now that Davos, with guidance from Meli, freed Edric the only option is utilizing the NW. (Even though Aemons letter said nothing about Others or Fists of First men only that Mormonts slain with his host and Mance is marching south, theyre still the right tool for the job) 

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

and Davos would not have alerted Stannis to where his true duty lay if not for the rescue of Edric,

No way. Immediately when he realized what he was reading his thoughts turned to the Others, even though it only says Mance.

Florent didnt know what Stannis' game plan was but Davos did, he totally should have gone straight to Stannis with the letter. 100%. The only reason he didnt was to use it as leverage to free Edric from a possible fire. 

And this scheme came from the man who didnt want to be Hand, like he wasnt born for this game, lol

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

So whether Rhllor is real or not or whether he is Bloodraven

But how? Brynden was born like 100 years ago, maybe 150. Theyve been worshiping R'hllor for thousands. 

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

And as your quote from Stannis shows, he would not have ventured north if not for Davos, and Davos would not have alerted Stannis to where his true duty lay if not for the rescue of Edric, and he likely would not have rescued Edric had he not met the boy and been charmed by him, which probably would not have happened if Mel hadn't seen it in her flames . . .

So whether Rhllor is real or not or whether he is Bloodraven or someone else, it seems to me that the whole sequence of events was designed to bring Stannis north. 

Seemingly. But to me it looks like Stannis was going to head north no matter what and these Edric/Stone dragon events were just ways to influence Stannis.

I mean, not no matter what. Only if he had a Hand who actually knew how to do their job

Quote

"How do you come to have them? They should have come to me."

"What else is a Hand for, if not to hand you things?" Tyrion handed her the letter.

 

[John Suburbs]

17 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

So now that Davos, with guidance from Meli, freed Edric the only option is utilizing the NW. (Even though Aemons letter said nothing about Others or Fists of First men only that Mormonts slain with his host and Mance is marching south, theyre still the right tool for the job) 

No way. Immediately when he realized what he was reading his thoughts turned to the Others, even though it only says Mance.

Florent didnt know what Stannis' game plan was but Davos did, he totally should have gone straight to Stannis with the letter. 100%. The only reason he didnt was to use it as leverage to free Edric from a possible fire. 

And this scheme came from the man who didnt want to be Hand, like he wasnt born for this game, lol

But how? Brynden was born like 100 years ago, maybe 150. Theyve been worshiping R'hllor for thousands. 

Seemingly. But to me it looks like Stannis was going to head north no matter what and these Edric/Stone dragon events were just ways to influence Stannis.

I mean, not no matter what. Only if he had a Hand who actually knew how to do their job

 

I think it was the letter, coupled with Stannis' vision, the switched the lightbulb on in Stannis' head that the real fight against the real enemy was to the north. For whatever reason, Davos held onto the letter until after Edric was gone. Mayhaps he didn't think Stannis would take it seriously until then. Either way, it would have been the catalyst that brought him north.

Sure, Rhllor-worshipping has been around for thousands of years, but Mel has only been getting her visions for however long she's been alive, probably on the order of 100 years or so, depending. She's the only fire-worshipper who seems to be keyed in on Stannis, after all. Others, like Moquorro and Bennero are getting visions of Dany.

 

[Hugorfonics]

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

. For whatever reason, Davos held onto the letter until after Edric was gone. 

Leverage. He needed a good distraction from his treason.

Which leads to the speculation if he was never "charmed" (which perhaps wanst even needed, its still an innocent child, a classmate of his son) why wouldnt he hand over the letter as soon as he read it, before the PW.

Though now that im writing this, it is asoiaf, right? All roads lead to Snow. Maybe Mels fire needed Jon to command the Wall for a bit to boost his resume (though, lets be honest, Sam stole the election).

Idk, I like the previous conclusion, Mel is full of shit and is trying to harden/corrupt Stannis, she also thinks a few moves in advance like most characters

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Mayhaps he didn't think Stannis would take it seriously until then.

Until he was so mad his vessels would pop and teeth shatter? What would happen if Florent showed him the letter, wouldnt Meli and Stannis reach the same conclusion that the NW are R'hllors ticket to the showdown? When it comes to signs from God that your a hero, a pleading letters not bad. 

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Sure, Rhllor-worshipping has been around for thousands of years, but Mel has only been getting her visions for however long she's been alive, probably on the order of 100 years or so, depending. She's the only fire-worshipper who seems to be keyed in on Stannis, after all. Others, like Moquorro and Bennero are getting visions of Dany.

See, im not so sure about all that. Mel wants to be keyed in on Stannis, probably was in Ashhai, but her visions are now of Jon. Likewise Moquorro looks for Dany but finds Tyrion with a smile, and the world shattering behind him. 

I think theres a little Azor Ahai in most characters (all thats needed is to kill your love, be reborn and something about a red star. Happens all the time) and it drives the priests crazy