Jump to content
LadyBlackwater

Septa Lemore

Recommended Posts

43 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Queen Rhaella didn’t have a leg to stand on after the Sack. She’s lucky to have any friends at all. And Tyrion was a young boy in Casterly Rock during the Rebellion. How is he supposed to know how Targaryens look? It’s quite possible Rhaella looks like her grandmother, Betha Blackwood, who had dark eyes and hair.

She did have a friend in Ser Willem Darry - she would have gone to exile with him and her children had she survived.

Not according to her picture in TWoIaF which shows her giving birth to Rhaegar at Summerhall. Tyrion knew both the Mad King and Prince Rhaegar by sight. He wasn't very familiar with them, of course, but he did knew them.

Also, Connington would know Queen Rhaella very well and would refer her to by her actual name in his thoughts rather than 'Lady Lemore'. Not to mention that he would at least show some deference to her who had been/still was his queen rather than making solitary decisions and presuming he knew what was best for House Targaryen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Right.  But does that mean that Lemore has no secrets at all?  Because whatever they are, Tyrion has not guessed them.  And Tyrion's lack of interest in her secrets is a pretty obvious signal that Tyrion may be missing something important in his calculations.

When Lemore gets south, she takes off her septa robes, and puts on instead the garb of a wealthy merchant's daughter.  Is this a guise?  Or another guise?  She could indeed be a wealthy merchant's daughter, as well as many other things.  If her dad is a wealthy merchant, then who is this wealthy merchant dad?  Illyrio?   The guy who journeyed out in a litter with a gift of candied ginger for "our lad" and a plan to give them all a sendoff feast before they all "started" down-river.

And if Illyrio is her dad, then who is her mom?  Serra?  And who is Serra?  The last female Blackfyre, after the male line ended?  Why did Illyrio feel the need to take a hit to his social influence by marrying her officially?  Was she secretly a more significant person than he pretends?

Serra is apparently someone who died if grayscale.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Right.  But does that mean that Lemore has no secrets at all?  Because whatever they are, Tyrion has not guessed them.  And Tyrion's lack of interest in her secrets is a pretty obvious signal that Tyrion may be missing something important in his calculations.

When Lemore gets south, she takes off her septa robes, and puts on instead the garb of a wealthy merchant's daughter.  Is this a guise?  Or another guise?  She could indeed be a wealthy merchant's daughter, as well as many other things.  If her dad is a wealthy merchant, then who is this wealthy merchant dad?  Illyrio?   The guy who journeyed out in a litter with a gift of candied ginger for "our lad" and a plan to give them all a sendoff feast before they all "started" down-river.

And if Illyrio is her dad, then who is her mom?  Serra?  And who is Serra?  The last female Blackfyre, after the male line ended?  Why did Illyrio feel the need to take a hit to his social influence by marrying her officially?  Was she secretly a more significant person than he pretends?

Merchant's daughters - wealthy or not - are not called "Lady" by a nobleman like Connington. That is Martin giving us a clue. Whatever Lemore's secret, she is from the noble class.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

Merchant's daughters - wealthy or not - are not called "Lady" by a nobleman like Connington. That is Martin giving us a clue. Whatever Lemore's secret, she is from the noble class.

Or at least Connington believes she is ... he also believes Aegon is best friend's son but he might be mistaken there, too.

1 hour ago, redriver said:

Serra is apparently someone who died if grayscale.

We have, at this point, just Illyrio's word that said woman existed, that she had Valyrian features, that he loved her and married her.

Lemore could very well *be* Aegon's mother if he is not Elia's son and if the Serra woman Illyrio talked about never existed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Or at least Connington believes she is ... he also believes Aegon is best friend's son but he might be mistaken there, too.

True. Lemore might be a woman from Mars, with a multiple personality disorder who Martin drops into his story just to screw with the reader. However, we haven't a clue to say it is likely.

The author tells us the character is hiding her identity. He tells us that she needs to be wary of wearing her Septa robes because that might make too many people think of Westeros. Clues to suggest who she really is. Do you have a clue to suggest she is hiding her true identity from Lord Connington?

I would suggest it is likely Connington knows who Lemore is independently from who she says she is. Why? Because some one has been able to convince Lord Jon that Young Griff is really Rhaegar and Elia's son. A mysterious unknown person masquerading as a hither to unknown Septa wouldn't be able to do that. Neither would any of the other passengers on the Shy Maid. But I'd go the extra step and say neither would Illyrio or even Varys be able to convince him into this little conspiracy. It necessitates some one that Connington trusts to really know the truth of the tale. Someone Lord Jon knows from before he left the Golden Company. Someone who he believes would be in a position to know the truth.

I think that someone is Ashara. Not only because she is necessary to explain why Connington believes in the Pisswater Prince tale, but because the whole conspiracy is dependent on being able to convince the Targaryen loyalists in Westeros that Young Griff is really Aegon. That starts with Doran Martell and includes every other secret supporter who wants to restore Targaryen rule. There are very few people who could do so, but the Lady Ashara Dayne would be one of them.

 

Edited by SFDanny

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

She did have a friend in Ser Willem Darry - she would have gone to exile with him and her children had she survived.

Not according to her picture in TWoIaF which shows her giving birth to Rhaegar at Summerhall. Tyrion knew both the Mad King and Prince Rhaegar by sight. He wasn't very familiar with them, of course, but he did knew them.

Also, Connington would know Queen Rhaella very well and would refer her to by her actual name in his thoughts rather than 'Lady Lemore'. Not to mention that he would at least show some deference to her who had been/still was his queen rather than making solitary decisions and presuming he knew what was best for House Targaryen.

The picture is an artist’s rendering. The text does not describe her appearance. Willem Darry was her friend, and he took care of Viserys and Dany, but he didn’t have enough men to defend against the attack on Dragonstone. He snuck the children out of the nursery and sailed away. The secretive nature of the escape indicates that not everyone on Dragonstone could be trusted. 
 

We cannot rely on character thoughts for missing information. After 13+ years of exile we’re to expect Jon Con to explicitly think of Lemore’s true identity? I think that’s unreasonable. He would be accustomed to the assumed identity in thoughts and speech. He also knew who Ashara was, so if he doesn’t reveal Lemore’s identity in his internal thoughts then we are to conclude that he doesn’t know her as anybody other than Septa or Lady Lemore? Of the two women, Rhaella is associated with septas.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Queen Rhaella didn’t have a leg to stand on after the Sack. She’s lucky to have any friends at all. And Tyrion was a young boy in Casterly Rock during the Rebellion. How is he supposed to know how Targaryens look? It’s quite possible Rhaella looks like her grandmother, Betha Blackwood, who had dark eyes and hair.

I can’t remember. Do we ever get a physical description of Rhaella? I don’t remember reading one, but that doesn’t always mean anything. It’s been a while since I’ve read the series, and I haven’t had the opportunity to dive back in. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lady Dyanna said:

I can’t remember. Do we ever get a physical description of Rhaella? I don’t remember reading one, but that doesn’t always mean anything. It’s been a while since I’ve read the series, and I haven’t had the opportunity to dive back in. 

I have not been able to find a description of Rhaella.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

I have not been able to find a description of Rhaella.

Yeah. Just Jaime describing her leaving for the docks and she was pretty much covered up with a cloak. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

I have not been able to find a description of Rhaella.

This is going to sound a bit out there... But have we ever considered the idea that Lyanna is Septa Lemore? That might be awfully ironic. Especially considering the name. It almost reminds me of “love” in some of the Romance languages. And doesn’t Barristan refer to her as Rhaegar’s Lady Love? Or am I misremembering? The septa is what is making me laugh now. Does that make her number 7?  Was he forming his own harem? Or was she just seventh in a long line? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, SFDanny said:

True. Lemore might be a woman from Mars, with a multiple personality disorder who Martin drops into his story just to screw with the reader. However, we haven't a clue to say it is likely.

We don't know whether Connington actually knows who Lemore is - if she were Ashara or Rhaella or anyone he knew he would know that and it would reflect in his POV in some manner. You usually don't think or talk with a person in fake identity when you are alone - especially not if you are Jon Connington who isn't really a good undercover lord - even over a decade after he has taken on very transparent fake ID.

In that sense I'd say Lemore's name is actually 'Lemore' or Jon Connington at least believe it is.

11 hours ago, Melifeather said:

The picture is an artist’s rendering. The text does not describe her appearance.

The text doesn't. But George does. The original art for TWoIaF was done with George describing the people on the portraits. Not everything is a hundred per cent accurate, of course, but there were numerous instances both in TWoIaF and FaB where portraits were changed because they did not reflect what George wanted.

But I did not say we know for a fact Queen Rhaella had prototypical Valyrian looks. Just that it is pretty likely that she did - after all, all of her children looked like proper Valyrians, and her grandson Aegon, too (and in Rhaenys' and Jon's case we are told/assume they resemble their mothers not their father Rhaegar).

We also don't know whether Queen Shaera had Valyrian looks - because there is a neither a description nor a portrait of her - but considering the looks of Aerys II, the assumed looks of Rhaella, and their descendants it would be rather surprising if she had black hair.

11 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Willem Darry was her friend, and he took care of Viserys and Dany, but he didn’t have enough men to defend against the attack on Dragonstone. He snuck the children out of the nursery and sailed away. The secretive nature of the escape indicates that not everyone on Dragonstone could be trusted.

They had enough men - they just lost their fleet in the night of Dany's birth. Afterwards the men of the garrison decided to sell the children to Robert - something they may have not considered had their queen still been alive.

11 hours ago, Melifeather said:

We cannot rely on character thoughts for missing information. After 13+ years of exile we’re to expect Jon Con to explicitly think of Lemore’s true identity? I think that’s unreasonable. He would be accustomed to the assumed identity in thoughts and speech. He also knew who Ashara was, so if he doesn’t reveal Lemore’s identity in his internal thoughts then we are to conclude that he doesn’t know her as anybody other than Septa or Lady Lemore? Of the two women, Rhaella is associated with septas.

Jon thinks of himself also as Jon Connington, not as Griff. He would also think of Lemore as Rhaella or Ashara or whatever her true name is if it isn't Lemore and he doesn't know it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As for Targaryen looks:

Again, they are inbred as hell. And this shows. It actually shows in physiognomies and expressions to the point that in FaB we have Gyldayn cite people comparing their looks to those of other Targaryens they knew.

Jaehaerys I apparently was the very image of his uncle Maegor the Cruel, something that was especially visible when Jaehaerys was angry. Aegon II is (as per the description George gave Amok) very much resembling his father, Viserys I. This is much stronger even with family traits - certain things jump a generation or two, but they always come back. King Aenys comes again to a degree in Viserys I, Archmaester Vaegon in Aerys I, Maegor the Cruel in Saera and Daemon and later still in Aerion, Aegon II's sexual appetites are mirrored by Aegon IV and Aerys II, and so on and so forth.

We also have in the main series Dany confusing vision Rhaegar with her brother Viserys III - only their different build and a slightly different eye color gives Rhaegar away, otherwise they very much looked alike.

In that sense Tyrion should very much note a family remsemblance between Lemore and Aegon if they were actually a Targaryen grandmother and Targaryen grandson - something that goes for beyond the mere hair or eye color.

In fact, it has long been theorized that somebody really knowing Rhaegar or other Targaryens pretty well is going to find Jon Snow awfully familiar should he ever spent much time with him. After all, he apparently has only Lyanna's - the Starkish - hair. His nose, mouth, ears, smile, teeth, brows, eye lashes, etc. could be Rhaegar's. Even his eyes could be a very dark purple appearing black - we only got Jon's eye color once, early on in AGoT, if I remember correctly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

In fact, it has long been theorized that somebody really knowing Rhaegar or other Targaryens pretty well is going to find Jon Snow awfully familiar should he ever spent much time with him. After all, he apparently has only Lyanna's - the Starkish - hair. His nose, mouth, ears, smile, teeth, brows, eye lashes, etc. could be Rhaegar's. Even his eyes could be a very dark purple appearing black - we only got Jon's eye color once, early on in AGoT, if I remember correctly.

Wishful thinking.  Jon looks like a Stark through and through.

Quote

Jon was never out of sight, and as he grew, he looked more like Ned than any of the true born sons she bore him.

Quote

“Lord Eddard Stark is my father,” Jon admitted stiffly.

Lannister studied his face.  “Yes,” he said.  “I can see it.  You have more of the north in you than your brothers.”

Quote

The ranger gave his horse into the care of one of his men and followed.  “You are Jon Snow.  You have your father’s look.”

”Did you know him, my lord?”

”I am no lord king.  Only a brother of the Night’s Watch.  I knew Lord Eddard, yes.  And his father before him.”

Quote

“Who’s this one now?”  Craster said before Jon could go.  “He has the look of a Stark.”

”My steward and squire, Jon Snow.”

Quote

“A shade more fun than needlework,” Arya gave back at him.  Jon grinned, reached over, and messed up her hair.  Arya flushed.  They had always been close.  Jon had their father’s face, as she did. 

Quote

The boy absorbed that all in silence.  he had the Stark face if not the name:  long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away.  Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son.

In fact, it may well turn out that the secret of Jon’s parentage that Ned hides from the world (including, and especially from his wife) is evident from that last quote, he had little of his appearance that wasn’t Stark.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We don't know whether Connington actually knows who Lemore is - if she were Ashara or Rhaella or anyone he knew he would know that and it would reflect in his POV in some manner. You usually don't think or talk with a person in fake identity when you are alone - especially not if you are Jon Connington who isn't really a good undercover lord - even over a decade after he has taken on very transparent fake ID.

I think it is reflected in his thoughts when calls her "Lady." I find it not hard to believe at all that after a decade together, in which he maintains Lemore's cover by calling her only by that name, that we do not get a clear reference to her real identity. In his thoughts or in his speech, she has become Lemore to Connington by the discipline the cover demands.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, SFDanny said:

I think it is reflected in his thoughts when calls her "Lady." I find it not hard to believe at all that after a decade together, in which he maintains Lemore's cover by calling her only by that name, that we do not get a clear reference to her real identity. In his thoughts or in his speech, she has become Lemore to Connington by the discipline the cover demands.

But they also talk about Aegon as Aegon then - whose secret sure as hell is more important than Lemore's. If Connington knew who Lemore truly was - if he name was Lemore - then the character would have no reason to keep that an even greater secret than Aegon's own, no?

It would be great if Ashara were still around in some way (or even Rhaella) but I very much doubt Connington would feel the need to keep her identity a secret - I mean, what on earth could be the motivation behind that. Even if people knew Ashara Dayne were still alive literally nothing would happen. Nobody would want to kill her or anything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, SFDanny said:

I think it is reflected in his thoughts when calls her "Lady." I find it not hard to believe at all that after a decade together, in which he maintains Lemore's cover by calling her only by that name, that we do not get a clear reference to her real identity. In his thoughts or in his speech, she has become Lemore to Connington by the discipline the cover demands.

This is actually a good point. It seems obvious to me that GRRM is trying to (gracefully) conceal her identity, and the use of “lady” is our only clue to nobility.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But they also talk about Aegon as Aegon then - whose secret sure as hell is more important than Lemore's. If Connington knew who Lemore truly was - if he name was Lemore - then the character would have no reason to keep that an even greater secret than Aegon's own, no?

It would be great if Ashara were still around in some way (or even Rhaella) but I very much doubt Connington would feel the need to keep her identity a secret - I mean, what on earth could be the motivation behind that. Even if people knew Ashara Dayne were still alive literally nothing would happen. Nobody would want to kill her or anything.

We are talking about keeping secrets in Connington's own private thoughts, right? He thinks of Young Griff as Aegon - after Tyrion figures it out and tells the readers - is not something one would think as odd. Nor is it odd that he names Young Griff as Aegon before the Golden Company in his attempt to win their support. What I would think would be extremely odd is for the reader to find out Lemore's real identity through Lord Jon's internal monologue. When The Winds of Winter finally comes out we will certainly learn rather quickly who Lemore is, but I'd expect it to be through a scene in which she is recognized by someone who knew her in her former life. I'd expect that to happen in whatever POV brings Lady Lemore forward at Storm's End  or in the besieger's camp.

LV, I don't think people are as predicable in the ordering of their thoughts as your point would claim. It makes sense that Aegon's identity is the more important secret for Connington to keep, but the way in which he thinks of these things may well not fit into those priorities. Our thoughts are sometimes not quite that neat and orderly. That may seem like a contradiction to you of my claim of the discipline of keeping Lemore's secret being reflecting in what he names her in his thoughts. I don't think it is. Aegon is revealed; Lemore is not.

While I think this messy nature of how people think maybe reflected in what we see in Connington, I also think this is most importantly a function of when the author wants to show the reader bits of his backstory.  You maybe right that what you point out would be more logical, but the author wants the reveal of Lemore's identity when it suits his story, and not before.

To your last point about who would want to do Ashara harm? I would say it is less about doing her harm, and more about who would want to question her. I think the answer to that is many, many people would like to question her about the last days of Robert's Rebellion, the events of the Tower of Joy, and the details of her departure from Starfall.

 

Edited by SFDanny

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/7/2019 at 11:18 AM, corbon said:

Tyene's visited her mother in Westeros years ago. Lemore was already in Essos then.

That's not certain. That is, the time when Tyene visited her mother in Westeros could match with JonCon recruiting. Tyene and Arianne are several years older than (f)Aegon. I in fact do think Lemore is indeed Tyene's mother, though she dyes her hair regularly to come across as a brunette.

Either Varys recruited her for Aegon or Oberyn did after getting some word something was fishy about JonCon and someone recruiting amongst the Golden Company, but Oberyn just never wanted to tell his brother.

Regardless who recruited her, the visit of Arianne and Tyene to the mother sets up something very beneficial for Aegon. JonCon's and Aegon's word would carry little weight with the Martells. But Tyene's mother is someone Arianne would know and believe on her word, especially since Tyene is her favourite sandsnake. Arianne will meet Septa Lemore at Storm's End, before she meets Aegon, and she will accept Lemore's assertions that Aegon is her 1st cousin, in a way she would not accept it from the halfmaester, JonCon or Aegon himself.

Edited by sweetsunray

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/14/2019 at 7:52 PM, Lord Varys said:

In fact, it has long been theorized that somebody really knowing Rhaegar or other Targaryens pretty well is going to find Jon Snow awfully familiar should he ever spent much time with him. After all, he apparently has only Lyanna's - the Starkish - hair. His nose, mouth, ears, smile, teeth, brows, eye lashes, etc. could be Rhaegar's. Even his eyes could be a very dark purple appearing black - we only got Jon's eye color once, early on in AGoT, if I remember correctly.

Jon's eye color is described as grey on several occasions. The first, and most quoted, is from Bran's POV, the "a grey so dark they seemed almost black". In Jon's own POV he describes his own eyes as grey, as well as Arya's eyes being grey and Arya thinking that she and Jon had the same eye color. Also, Samwell describes Jon's eyes as "grey eyes as hard as ice" and Melisandre twice describes Jon's eyes as grey; "cold grey eyes" and "Jon Snow's grey eyes grew wider". I don't see any reason for us to think that Jon's eyes are anything but Stark grey. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×