Isn't cutting out the tongues of the little birds just unnecessary cruelty?

[Nagini's Neville]

"Huge stones had been set into the curving walls as steps, circling down and down, dark as the steps to hell that Old Nan used to tell them of. And something was coming up out of the darkness, out of the bowels of the earth …"

A Game of Thrones, Arya 3

First of all isn't that a straight-up devil comparison?

I always couldn't help, but really like Varys: his cleverness, his creativity, whatever he did, I always tended to believe, that he truly had first and foremost the benefit of the 7 kingdoms in mind (which sets him apart from LF, who first and foremost always has LF's benefit in mind) and I can help, but feel absolutely devastated for him, because of his horrible back-story. (It's very interesting to see how different characters react to childhood trauma/abuse in their own unique ways)

But the more I reread him, the more I am reminded of how properly evil he is. Varys speaks almost gently about his LBs. You almost get the impression, he loves those poor children like his own, provides them with a job and takes care of them (yeah, he manages to fool me with his charms and gentle ways  )... until you remember, what he really does to them and suddenly he appears more like the Pied Piper. 

But what does the removing of tongues actually achieve? The LBs can write after all. Does Varys really not keep in mind, that who ever will capture and question them, will think as far as putting a pen and a piece of paper in front of them? Is cutting out their tongue not just unnecessary cruelty?

[Peach King]

Yeah Varys is an evil guy....and I think his tripe about wanting to save the realm is mostly BS.

[Lollygag]

What @Peach King said.

As to it being unnecessary, Varys taught them to write. If they can speak too, then they have options for their lives and a lot of incentive to escape. But Varys makes them freaks (rhymes with Reek) and marks them as his taking away the possibility that they may have a normal life if they could just escape. Like Ramsay and Euron, Varys is screwing with their heads too. And a vast majority of this world is illiterate. They'll never be able to communicate even on a basic level with most people.

[Lord Varys]

Varys does not cut the tongues out himself. They buy slave children which either already lack tongues or lose them early on.

But it is not so likely that all of them lack a tongue - for instance, the girl entering Maegor's Holdfast in the Epilogue to bring a message to the Lord Regent likely could speak even if she did not. After all, with her not being able to speak with the KG and the other guardsmen standing between her and Kevan she wouldn't have been able to deliver her message.

Could also be that this is somewhat of a plot hole considering that the little birds can sneak in every other building in the Red Keep but Maegor's Holdfast. But guys like Blount or Kettleblack or other guardsmen might not be able to read, so a mute girl just handing a note to one of them is not going to get to Kevan because they don't realize where she wants to go - and the chance that there are (m)any mute serving girls in the castle is not very high. Such a child would quickly raise suspicion if people realized she could not talk.

That aside, the core reason for the lack of tongues should be the good old saying of Areo Hotah - 'someone always tells'. One assumes the little mice were originally children who could talk - but Varys changed his modus operandi after some of them were captured and put to the question back in Pentos. This is not torture, but preparation for their job - it is still very ugly, both putting children to this shitty work and to mutilate them, but this is not the epitome of evil in this series.

As for the little birds themselves - we assume they do not write down what they hear in the Common Tongue or even High Valyrian, but rather in a cipher or code only Varys and his staff (older little birds, most likely) can make sense of. It would indeed be stupid to cut out their tongues and then have them write everything down in a way that would be legible for those Westerosi who can read. After all, if they were captured by one of the people they spy on they would quickly end up in the hands of people who can read - and who could force them to reveal their knowledge by writing. Not to mention that they would have access to the knowledge available in the notes the little birds had already made.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

"Huge stones had been set into the curving walls as steps, circling down and down, dark as the steps to hell that Old Nan used to tell them of. And something was coming up out of the darkness, out of the bowels of the earth …"

A Game of Thrones, Arya 3

First of all isn't that a straight-up devil comparison?

I always couldn't help, but really like Varys: his cleverness, his creativity, whatever he did, I always tended to believe, that he truly had first and foremost the benefit of the 7 kingdoms in mind (which sets him apart from LF, who first and foremost always has LF's benefit in mind) and I can help, but feel absolutely devastated for him, because of his horrible back-story. (It's very interesting to see how different characters react to childhood trauma/abuse in their own unique ways)

But the more I reread him, the more I am reminded of how properly evil he is. Varys speaks almost gently about his LBs. You almost get the impression, he loves those poor children like his own, provides them with a job and takes care of them (yeah, he manages to fool me with his charms and gentle ways  )... until you remember, what he really does to them and suddenly he appears more like the Pied Piper. 

But what does the removing of tongues actually achieve? The LBs can write after all. Does Varys really not keep in mind, that who ever will capture and question them, will think as far as putting a pen and a piece of paper in front of them? Is cutting out their tongue not just unnecessary cruelty?

I agree! Damn Varys! 

It's hard to come to terms with believing a character is mostly good, has the children of the realms best interest at heart, is sympathetic, & has a very sympathetic back story & then merge that with the fact that he is either mutilating these poor children or having someone else do it for him. 

There is the possibility, like LV said that he isn't mutilating them at all but is purchasing slave children that have already had their tongues removed. Spun in that light in is taking children that have been treated poorly & giving them a purpose & a job or way to survive when they wouldn't have one other wise. I'm gonna go with that because I do want to keep liking Varys

[Alexis-something-Rose]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Varys does not cut the tongues out himself. They buy slave children which either already lack tongues or lose them early on.

We know he does not cut the tongues out himself. And I think there's a strong possibility that the children are slaves that Illyrio purchases for this specific task, and I actually think that Bountiful Harvest may have been delivering those children to Varys. But the text implies otherwise about the tongues. 

"What I can do, I will," the one with the torch said softly. "I must have gold, and another fifty birds."
"So many?" The voices were fainter as the light dwindled ahead of her. "The ones you need are hard to find . . . so young, to know their letters . . . perhaps older . . . not die so easy . . ."
"No. The younger are safer . . . treat them gently . . ."
". . . if they kept their tongues . . ."
". . . the risk . . ." (Arya III, AGoT 32)

Some of the children don't survive being mutilated. 

I don't think Varys treats them badly when they are in his charge at all. I even understand why it's safer to remove the tongues. But there is definitely something cruel about it. 

I do think it's possible that we might have seen some of these little birds all grown up at Illyrio's manse in Tyrion's chapter. 

(sorry about how small the quote from the text is. I forgot to change it before posting)

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

6 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

We know he does not cut the tongues out himself. And I think there's a strong possibility that the children are slaves that Illyrio purchases for this specific task, and I actually think that Bountiful Harvest may have been delivering those children to Varys. But the text implies otherwise about the tongues. 

"What I can do, I will," the one with the torch said softly. "I must have gold, and another fifty birds."
"So many?" The voices were fainter as the light dwindled ahead of her. "The ones you need are hard to find . . . so young, to know their letters . . . perhaps older . . . not die so easy . . ."
"No. The younger are safer . . . treat them gently . . ."
". . . if they kept their tongues . . ."
". . . the risk . . ." (Arya III, AGoT 32)

Some of the children don't survive being mutilated. 

I don't think Varys treats them badly when they are in his charge at all. I even understand why it's safer to remove the tongues. But there is definitely something cruel about it. 

I do think it's possible that we might have seen some of these little birds all grown up at Illyrio's manse in Tyrion's chapter. 

(sorry about how small the quote from the text is. I forgot to change it before posting)

So in the quote it seems to be Varys saying "the younger the safer... Treat them gently" 

But I wonder is it still Varys talking when it's said "if they kept their tongues" or has it switched to Illyrio. The reason I ask is if it's Varys then the tongue removing seems to be a requirement of Illyrios but if it's Illyrio saying it, it implies Varys is requesting their tongues be removed & not that they are already removed, if that makes sense? 

[Lollygag]

Arya overhears Varys ask Illyrio for more children to turn into little birds in AGOT Arya III. Later in the book after Illyrio has had enough time to travel back to Pentos and after enough time for word to reach the Dothraki, Illyrio asks Khal Drago specifically for the type of children Varys requires. Illyrio complains that the young ones die easily and Drago gets a bonus for young ones kept alive. Dragon skulls figure prominently when Arya overhears Varys and Illyrio (note the smoking star, too), and it's this mission to acquire slave children which results in the dragons coming back.

Illyrio argues for them to keep their tongues. Varys gives the order for them to be cut out while at the same time asking for them to be treated gently (!).

 

AGOT Arya III

"If one Hand can die, why not a second?" replied the man with the accent and the forked yellow beard. "You have danced the dance before, my friend." He was no one Arya had ever seen before, she was certain of it. Grossly fat, yet he seemed to walk lightly, carrying his weight on the balls of his feet as a water dancer might. His rings glimmered in the torchlight, red-gold and pale silver, crusted with rubies, sapphires, slitted yellow tiger eyes. Every finger wore a ring; some had two.

"Before is not now, and this Hand is not the other," the scarred man said as they stepped out into the hall. Still as stone, Arya told herself, quiet as a shadow. Blinded by the blaze of their own torch, they did not see her pressed flat against the stone, only a few feet away.

"Perhaps so," the forked beard replied, pausing to catch his breath after the long climb. "Nonetheless, we must have time. The princess is with child. The khal will not bestir himself until his son is born. You know how they are, these savages."

The man with the torch pushed at something. Arya heard a deep rumbling. A huge slab of rock, red in the torchlight, slid down out of the ceiling with a resounding crash that almost made her cry out. Where the entry to the well had been was nothing but stone, solid and unbroken.

"If he does not bestir himself soon, it may be too late," the stout man in the steel cap said. "This is no longer a game for two players, if ever it was. Stannis Baratheon and Lysa Arryn have fled beyond my reach, and the whispers say they are gathering swords around them. The Knight of Flowers writes Highgarden, urging his lord father to send his sister to court. The girl is a maid of fourteen, sweet and beautiful and tractable, and Lord Renly and Ser Loras intend that Robert should bed her, wed her, and make a new queen. Littlefinger … the gods only know what game Littlefinger is playing. Yet Lord Stark's the one who troubles my sleep. He has the bastard, he has the book, and soon enough he'll have the truth. And now his wife has abducted Tyrion Lannister, thanks to Littlefinger's meddling. Lord Tywin will take that for an outrage, and Jaime has a queer affection for the Imp. If the Lannisters move north, that will bring the Tullys in as well. Delay, you say. Make haste, I reply. Even the finest of jugglers cannot keep a hundred balls in the air forever."

"You are more than a juggler, old friend. You are a true sorcerer. All I ask is that you work your magic awhile longer." They started down the hall in the direction Arya had come, past the room with the monsters.

"What I can do, I will," the one with the torch said softly. "I must have gold, and another fifty birds."    [Varys]

She let them get a long way ahead, then went creeping after them. Quiet as a shadow.

"So many?" The voices were fainter as the light dwindled ahead of her. "The ones you need are hard to find … so young, to know their letters … perhaps older … not die so easy …"    [Illyrio]

"No. The younger are safer … treat them gently …"     [Varys]

"… if they kept their tongues …"    [Illyrio]

"… the risk …"   [Varys]

Long after their voices had faded away, Arya could still see the light of the torch, a smoking star that bid her follow. Twice it seemed to disappear, but she kept on straight, and both times she found herself at the top of steep, narrow stairs, the torch glimmering far below her. She hurried after it, down and down. Once she stumbled over a rock and fell against the wall, and her hand found raw earth supported by timbers, whereas before the tunnel had been dressed stone.

AGOT Daenerys VII

"Most of Ogo's riders fled," Ser Jorah was saying. "Still, there may be as many as ten thousand captives."

Slaves, Dany thought. Khal Drogo would drive them downriver to one of the towns on Slaver's Bay. She wanted to cry, but she told herself that she must be strong. This is war, this is what it looks like, this is the price of the Iron Throne.

"I've told the khal he ought to make for Meereen," Ser Jorah said. "They'll pay a better price than he'd get from a slaving caravan. Illyrio writes that they had a plague last year, so the brothels are paying double for healthy young girls, and triple for boys under ten. If enough children survive the journey, the gold will buy us all the ships we need, and hire men to sail them."

Behind them, the girl being raped made a heartrending sound, a long sobbing wail that went on and on and on. Dany's hand clenched hard around the reins, and she turned the silver's head. "Make them stop," she commanded Ser Jorah.

 

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

3 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

So in the quote it seems to be Varys saying "the younger the safer... Treat them gently" 

But I wonder is it still Varys talking when it's said "if they kept their tongues" or has it switched to Illyrio. The reason I ask is if it's Varys then the tongue removing seems to be a requirement of Illyrios but if it's Illyrio saying it, it implies Varys is requesting their tongues be removed & not that they are already removed, if that makes sense? 

I think it's Varys who is talking about the removal of the tongues. To me, it sounds like their tongues have to be removed. And where does one find fifty children with their tongues already removed? 

There's also this;

"In King's Landing he kept little birds."
"Mice, we called them then. The older thieves were fools who thought no further than turning a night's plunder into wine. Varys preferred orphan boys and young girls. He chose the smallest, the ones who were quick and quiet, and taught them to climb walls and slip down chimneys. He taught them to read as well. We left the gold and gems for common thieves. Instead our mice stole letters, ledgers, charts . . . later, they would read them and leave them where they lay. Secrets are worth more than silver or sapphires, Varys claimed. [snip]" (Tyrion II, ADwD 5)

Orphan boys and girls that Varys trained. There's no mention of cutting tongues, but I'm assuming it's not an information Illyrio would want to share with Tyrion anyway. 

[Lord Varys]

12 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

We know he does not cut the tongues out himself. And I think there's a strong possibility that the children are slaves that Illyrio purchases for this specific task, and I actually think that Bountiful Harvest may have been delivering those children to Varys. But the text implies otherwise about the tongues. 

The point being we don't even know whether Varys/Illyrio arrange for the children to lose their tongues or whether the slave traders arrange for that. Although I have to say I don't think many slavers would be selling tongueless children, so chances are not that bad that Illyrio's people actually do the dirty work here - and at Varys' behest, because Illyrio is the one who asks him to use children who still have their tongues.

12 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Some of the children don't survive being mutilated. 

The way I interpret it is actually worse - I think walking, working, and essentially living in King Maegor's tunnels is a very dangerous task, something that causes many - especially the inexperienced children - to have mortal accidents. Varys does need more little birds because too many others have died and he has to keep an eye and an ear on everyone at this crucial stage of the plan. And he wants them to be as young as possible because in that state they can likely work as long as possible in the tunnels.

How Maegor and the other Targaryens used the listening posts is at this point unclear, but one imagines that 'the little birds' idea is something Varys came up with - Maegor and the others may have used grown-ups, although one imagines none of them could really use the tunnel net as efficiently as Varys. That Maegor intended his system to allow for a 24/7 surveillance system in the Red Keep outside Maegor's Holdfast is sort of evident from the fact that in the Tower of the Hand there are listening posts where the acoustics of the castle allow the listener to hear everything that's spoken in the adjacent room. But one assumes Maegor would have needed multiple shifts of grown-up agents to do this, and they could not serve more than a couple of hours a day in those places - unlike the little birds who likely can spy on the castle 6-8 hours a day.

I don't think removing a tongue is the kind of operation that easily kills you, even if you are still a young child (although I really don't know anything about that).

The number of birds Varys asks for also indicates some sort of rotating shift system. The children must sleep, too, and one imagines that not all of them are constantly in the tunnels.

12 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I don't think Varys treats them badly when they are in his charge at all. I even understand why it's safer to remove the tongues. But there is definitely something cruel about it. 

Most definitely. My point is that this is more the kind of 'the end justifies the means' cruelty. Varys had a very shitty childhood and youth and went through a number of hardships. He seems to be trying to make things better for many people, but he is definitely nobody shies away from spilling blood and hurting people for the grand plan, the common good, or whatever exactly his endgame is.

12 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I do think it's possible that we might have seen some of these little birds all grown up at Illyrio's manse in Tyrion's chapter. 

We also have one of them at the ship that carries Tyrion to Illyrio - the silent cabin boy Tyrion in his drunk state is going to rat out Varys as soon as they arrive at their destination - think again, dwarf ;-).

Illyrio's various female slaves could have been former little mice and, especially, the older fat one, companions that were with the Varys-Illyrio enterprise since they started to work together.

I also very much think the Mad Mouse is a former little mouse - and that he can still talk because he served Varys at a time when they had not yet decided to use tongueless children (I imagine they introduced that after a major setback involving one or a couple of captuered mice). The window in Littlefinger's study is open when Sansa enters it in the sample chapter, and his papers appear - but do not have to be - in disarray because of the wind. The modus operandi of the old little mice was to climb into houses through windows and chimneys and the like, go through the personal things of important people, memorize the contents of letters and books and the like, and leave without even being noticed.

24 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

So in the quote it seems to be Varys saying "the younger the safer... Treat them gently" 

But I wonder is it still Varys talking when it's said "if they kept their tongues" or has it switched to Illyrio. The reason I ask is if it's Varys then the tongue removing seems to be a requirement of Illyrios but if it's Illyrio saying it, it implies Varys is requesting their tongues be removed & not that they are already removed, if that makes sense? 

The common (or at least my) interpretation is that Varys is speaking again when we hear 'the risk' - and the risk would be that if they are discovered and captured they will talk - and thus give away all their plans (or what they know) to Baratheon authorities or other people. They cannot have that.

In fact, now that I think of it, I assume the tongues had to go when they started to implement the Aegon plan and were actively working against Robert, his brothers, and all the other courtiers back after the Rebellion was over. While they were merely spying on behalf of the king - which they did back when Varys served Aerys II - there was little to no reason to fear because they were doing the king's work and Varys was not using his little birds to betray the king (as far as we know at this point).

If Varys had fallen from grace and had been executed by Robert for some reason, he and his people could still not discover Varys' involvement with Illyrio or the Aegon plan by means of questioning the little birds - who, in absence of Varys, would have eventually come out of hiding and had been discovered by the authorities. That they are not discovered in AFfC/ADwD is because went down underground with them.

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Orphan boys and girls that Varys trained. There's no mention of cutting tongues, but I'm assuming it's not an information Illyrio would want to share with Tyrion anyway. 

Back in the day they would have recruited orphans and urchins like themselves for the the job. With the enterprise as it is they likely buy slave children on the market in the Three Daughters or Volantis.

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

As for the little birds themselves - we assume they do not write down what they hear in the Common Tongue or even High Valyrian, but rather in a cipher or code only Varys and his staff (older little birds, most likely) can make sense of. It would indeed be stupid to cut out their tongues and then have them write everything down in a way that would be legible for those Westerosi who can read. After all, if they were captured by one of the people they spy on they would quickly end up in the hands of people who can read - and who could force them to reveal their knowledge by writing. Not to mention that they would have access to the knowledge available in the notes the little birds had already made.

I think we should assume that they write in the common tongue. I mean they definitely learn how to read it, Valarian too probably. So to learn another language strictly for code seems rather convoluted for an assumption. 

I also dont think we should assume that when the kids are squeezed inside the walls like insulation theyre scribing away. They listen and report, by writing. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That aside, the core reason for the lack of tongues should be the good old saying of Areo Hotah - 'someone always tells'.

Yea, snitches get stiches. But what if their mouth is stitched to begin with?

Although this has me thinking. So there are three sets of characters who are tongueless, Birdys, Ser Illyn, who was grossly mishandled yet remained loyal to the core and synonymous with execution, and Eurons men. Loyal.

Like what are ya kids doing? Aint no slavery here, welcome to the Sunset. Go live. Oh, no tongue... Go die, like Varys was told, or, theres some food in between that wall and ceiling tile. 

I think the core issue is control.

44 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Some of the children don't survive being mutilated. 

Interesting. Like a Witcher. But Varys had the chemical induced experience, the Spiders the one whos called a freak. God im hyped for Witcher, lol order of the Spider.

But on a relatable note, whats the cheesemonger doing to these poor bastards?

48 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I do think it's possible that we might have seen some of these little birds all grown up at Illyrio's manse in Tyrion's chapter. 

Also interesting, nice pick up

[Lord Varys]

It is easy to get the mental picture in your head that Varys has an enormous need for little birds considering he orders fifty new ones during the talk in AGoT. But it doesn't seem as if Illyrio comes over for a chat all that often - meaning that the last time Varys needed more little birds may have been years ago.

And it should not only be the fact that very young children have accidents in the tunnels, but also that their size precludes them from working down there once they are past a certain age. But this doesn't mean they cannot serve Varys in another capacity - as eyes and ears in the city of King's Landing. The occasional mute girl or boy wouldn't raise any eyebrows in the city (and we do know that there are people who watch the comings and goings at the Gate of the Gods for Varys - and very likely at the other gates, too), and the more qualified could end up making up Varys' staff - the people going through the reports all the birds bring in (and the conventional agents and informer all across the Realm and the lands beyond), pointing out to Varys what's important for their plans, brief him on important developments, etc.

He would do some of those things himself, but he is a very busy man who also constantly attends court and council. He cannot possibly do what he does and know what he knows if had to read through all the reports he got all by himself. He must have a staff of some sort, and those are very likely little birds who no longer work in the tunnels and who do know what's important for Varys and Illyrio to know.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The common (or at least my) interpretation is that Varys is speaking again when we hear 'the risk' - and the risk would be that if they are discovered and captured they will talk - and thus give away all their plans (or what they know) to Baratheon authorities or other people. They cannot have that

Yeah, that's how I read it too but was hoping there was another answer. 

15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

In fact, now that I think of it, I assume the tongues had to go when they started to implement the Aegon plan and were actively working against Robert, his brothers, and all the other courtiers back after the Rebellion was over. While they were merely spying on behalf of the king - which they did back when Varys served Aerys II - there was little to no reason to fear because they were doing the king's work and Varys was not using his little birds to betray the king (as far as we know at this point).

Makes sense. Maybe, like you said, there was an incident at some point that almost spilled Varys's marbles so now he takes no chances with it. 

16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Varys had fallen from grace and had been executed by Robert for some reason, he and his people could still not discover Varys' involvement with Illyrio or the Aegon plan by means of questioning the little birds - who, in absence of Varys, would have eventually come out of hiding and had been discovered by the authorities. That they are not discovered in AFfC/ADwD is because went down underground with them

Really it just sucks for these kids. Sometimes I have to remind myself these are characters in a book & not real, abused children. 

 

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I think we should assume that they write in the common tongue. I mean they definitely learn how to read it, Valarian too probably. So to learn another language strictly for code seems rather convoluted for an assumption.

That's not unlikely, but I still think they must need some sort of cipher or code, not the proper alphabet.

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I also dont think we should assume that when the kids are squeezed inside the walls like insulation theyre scribing away. They listen and report, by writing. 

There is a hint that Varys actually does have literal transcripts of entire conversations - he presents many such during Tyrion's trial. Oberyn even confronts him about that, asking him how he could know what was said verbatim when he hadn't been physically there.

The little birds - or at least the best of them - could be capable stenographers, and some shorthand code could easily be the cipher they use in their reports.

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Like what are ya kids doing? Aint no slavery here, welcome to the Sunset. Go live. Oh, no tongue... Go die, like Varys was told, or, theres some food in between that wall and ceiling tile. 

The little birds seem to be loyal as hell and come across even as scary in the Epilogue, when they show up with their daggers. I think we can expect them to be completely onboard with the plans of their masters, in part because they were conditioned to think that, but in part also because they know what the endgame is supposed to be.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

10 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

think we should assume that they write in the common tongue. I mean they definitely learn how to read it, Valarian too probably. So to learn another language strictly for code seems rather convoluted for an assumption. 

It is a little convoluted & they certainly would need to be able to read the common tongue, so they would be able to write it. But on the other hand like LV said that does put Varys at risk of having one of them write down the info they wish to tell. But regardless if they learned a code or something to write in that couldn't be read by anyone else the fact that they can read the common tongue leaves that risk open. I just don't know. 

13 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yea, snitches get stiches. But what if their mouth is stitched to begin with?

I think that would make them too noticeable. 

13 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

think the core issue is control

I agree & this would be much simpler at such a young age. 

 

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Makes sense. Maybe, like you said, there was an incident at some point that almost spilled Varys's marbles so now he takes no chances with it.

I actually think as drastic a precaution as they take it makes the most sense if they only implemented that once they started the game of betraying Robert and all his allies. This is a very dangerous game, and so much as a single bird who talked could give it all away. Varys could be killed because he met with/knew the host of Viserys III, Aegon and Connington could be found and killed, etc.

For a mere thieving enterprise/political schemes in Pentos it seems to drastic a measure to me - especially in light of the fact that the use of mute operatives is limited when they are not used for (mainly) one purpose. In Pentos and elsewhere talking mice/birds could come in very handy, too.

But the game Varys plays in KL after the Rebellion greatly hinges on the fact that nobody connects him to Illyrio and the Targaryens and that nobody ever finds out that Aegon is still alive until it is far too late.

If Littlefinger or Stannis or some other person where to abduct a little bird to question or even torture him then the fact that they are mute may prevent them from giving away information he may have given away otherwise.

2 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It is a little convoluted & they certainly would need to be able to read the common tongue, so they would be able to write it. But on the other hand like LV said that does put Varys at risk of having one of them write down the info they wish to tell. But regardless if they learned a code or something to write in that couldn't be read by anyone else the fact that they can read the common tongue leaves that risk open. I just don't know.

Not sure they - or rather all of them - can read the common tongue. Varys may still have operatives to go through the solars and studies of the various courtiers in their absence, but those would be the most trusted operatives, one imagines.

Most of the little birds may only be able to write and read in a shorthand code, not in the proper fashion - and that's easily accomplished. All you need do is teach the children a manner to read and write that differs from the way everybody else does.

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

That's not unlikely, but I still think they must need some sort of cipher or code, not the proper alphabet.

Perhaps. But all codes are breakable

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

There is a hint that Varys actually does have literal transcripts of entire conversations - he presents many such during Tyrion's trial. Oberyn even confronts him about that, asking him how he could know what was said verbatim when he hadn't been physically there.

Very valid point. Thanks

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I think we can expect them to be completely onboard with the plans of their masters, in part because they were conditioned to think that, but in part also because they know what the endgame is supposed to be.

Young Griff?

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

If Littlefinger or Stannis or some other person where to abduct a little bird to question or even torture him then the fact that they are mute may prevent them from giving away information he may have given away otherwise.

To a degree. Wex is learning how to sing with no voice. (Whom I totally forgot to include on my lists of mutes. Also loyal to his Ironborn overlords.)

His snitching is so far mostly yes' and no's but hes learning his letters. Birds already know them

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

He would do some of those things himself, but he is a very busy man who also constantly attends court and council. He cannot possibly do what he does and know what he knows if had to read through all the reports he got all by himself. He must have a staff of some sort, and those are very likely little birds who no longer work in the tunnels and who do know what's important for Varys and Illyrio to know.

I understand your reasoning behind this, but for the master of whisperers to have his own master of whisperers seems like a bad decision, security wise.

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I think that would make them too noticeable. 

Thats why you stick them up the chimney like Santa Claus lol

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I agree & this would be much simpler at such a young age. 

No doubt.

Bloodraven used midgets in the chimney, and presumably in the red keep as well. Id trust mute kids more too. Then again Brynden probably had his own measures of control.

 

Side note/small question do we know who was the master of whisperers during The Mystery Knight? Brynden was Hand, did he have a spymaster?

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

actually think as drastic a precaution as they take it makes the most sense if they only implemented that once they started the game of betraying Robert and all his allies. This is a very dangerous game, and so much as a single bird who talked could give it all away. Varys could be killed because he met with/knew the host of Viserys III, Aegon and Connington could be found and killed, etc.

For a mere thieving enterprise/political schemes in Pentos it seems to drastic a measure to me - especially in light of the fact that the use of mute operatives is limited when they are not used for (mainly) one purpose. In Pentos and elsewhere talking mice/birds could come in very handy, too.

But the game Varys plays in KL after the Rebellion greatly hinges on the fact that nobody connects him to Illyrio and the Targaryens and that nobody ever finds out that Aegon is still alive until it is far too late.

If Littlefinger or Stannis or some other person where to abduct a little bird to question or even torture him then the fact that they are mute may prevent them from giving away information he may have given away otherwise.

Yeah that makes sense. He didn't really need mute birds prior to that. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Not sure they - or rather all of them - can read the common tongue. Varys may still have operatives to go through the solars and studies of the various courtiers in their absence, but those would be the most trusted operatives, one imagines.

Most of the little birds may only be able to write and read in a shorthand code, not in the proper fashion - and that's easily accomplished. All you need do is teach the children a manner to read and write that differs from the way everybody else does

Sure, that could work. Wonder what he does with them after they get too old to be a little bird. He could certainly still employ some of them, the ones that are the best presumably but what about the rest? I wouldn't think he would want to just set them out on their own even with his safety measures in place. But then again one single bird wouldn't know all of Varys's schemes or even all of one scheme. They would pick up some things here & there but to get the whole thing you would need lots of singing birds. 

11 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Thats why you stick them up the chimney like Santa Claus lol

Haha! 

11 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Side note/small question do we know who was the master of whisperers during The Mystery Knight? Brynden was Hand, did he have a spymaster?

I don't know but I would bet @Lord Varys does

[Lord Varys]

7 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Perhaps. But all codes are breakable

Sure, but having them is better than not having them - especially if you are doing what Varys and Illyrio are doing.

7 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Young Griff?

The endgame behind that. Varys implies that Aegon is just a means to an end - to give Westeros lasting stability and prosperity by creating a really great king. But if that king were to suck ... well, then the ultimate endgame remains, and would have to achieved by other means.

7 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

To a degree. Wex is learning how to sing with no voice. (Whom I totally forgot to include on my lists of mutes. Also loyal to his Ironborn overlords.)

Yes, he does. But that would mean you spend a considerable time with a mute and sort of gain his/her trust. Wex wants to talk, he does not not want to talk. And it would be rather difficult to have a little bird talk about, say, Aegon or Varys' true plans, etc. if the people questioning didn't even suspect Varys had some secret agenda or had some hidden dragons up his sleeve.

Thus he can obscure and obfuscate things this way pretty well, all things considered.

7 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I understand your reasoning behind this, but for the master of whisperers to have his own master of whisperers seems like a bad decision, security wise.

This is why one assumes he uses his birds for that, too - when they have grown older. Considering the size of the operations of the Master of Whisperers - he runs a sort of secret service agency for a Realm spanning nearly an entire continent! - he cannot do all that work by himself. Littlefinger manages the finances of the Crown yet he, too, has a staff in the treasury, we even know some of the offices by name.

Varys would work much more clandestinely, of course, but he, too, would need men he could trust. He physically cannot micro-manage everything - and neither he nor Illyrio want to be directly involved in everything they are doing.

7 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Side note/small question do we know who was the master of whisperers during The Mystery Knight? Brynden was Hand, did he have a spymaster?

Bloodraven seems to have been both Hand of the King and Master of Whisperers during the reign of Aerys I - and I assume, although that hasn't been confirmed yet, that Bloodraven also served as Master of Whisperers under Daeron II (we know from Egg who served as a page at court before joining Dunk that Baelor and Bloodraven held different views how to deal with rebels at council, confirming at least that Bloodraven was part of Daeron II's Small Council, although we don't know what office he had, if any - some lords/men sat and sit on the council without having formal offices).

But we have to keep in mind that Master of Whisperers seems to have been the Small Council office that was formally established the latest. Under Maegor, when Tyanna's moniker 'Mistress of Whispers' sort established the later official name, Tyanna ran Maegor's spy network as his queen, acting both in a more informal and in a much more powerful capacity.

Jaehaerys I didn't have a Master of Whisperers during his early reign, relying both on Rego Draz, his Master of Coin, and Albin Massey, his Master of Laws, for underhanded and intelligence stuff. This may have changed later, but we don't know. The first Master of Whisperers going by that name is Larys Strong during the reigns of Viserys I and Aegon II, and, informally, Mysaria during the reign of Rhaenyra. After Larys' death the office remained vacant during the Regency.

All this could mean that not all Targaryen kings after the Dance did have Master of Whisperers, Daeron II included.

Although the TWoIaF revelation that Bloodraven may have played a role in informing Daeron II that Daemon was up to something bad could indicate that Bloodraven was named Master of Whisperers after that, possibly along with getting Dark Sister - which he does have on the Redgrass Field. And for his service there he most definitely should have been rewarded by his king big time.

One might also wonder whether Maekar fired Bloodraven as Master of Whisperers while keeping him as Hand, abandoning Aerys I and Bloodraven's policy of ruling through fear and surveillance and taking a more liberal approach. But he could just as well have continued in both offices until Aegon V arrested him.

21 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Sure, that could work. Wonder what he does with them after they get too old to be a little bird. He could certainly still employ some of them, the ones that are the best presumably but what about the rest? I wouldn't think he would want to just set them out on their own even with his safety measures in place. But then again one single bird wouldn't know all of Varys's schemes or even all of one scheme. They would pick up some things here & there but to get the whole thing you would need lots of singing birds. 

I suggested they might be agents and informants in the KL - and possibly even the other great cities - where the occasional mute servant, scullion, etc. wouldn't draw all that much attention. Varys seems to have rather reliable informants in the Citadel of Oldtown, for example. Those could older birds he placed there. Perhaps some even are acolytes. Varys also must have access to the raven system on some basis - he cannot possibly know things before Pycelle if he cannot sent messages as fast as the maesters can (and we know, for instance, Varys knows even something like Tyrion's abduction before everybody else at court).

Also, inns would be a great place to have older birds - to observe the comings and goings, overhear some talks, note who is hanging out with, etc.