Alternate wife for Robert baratheon

[John Suburbs]

On 12/31/2019 at 1:31 PM, frenin said:

Marital ties kept all the Kingdoms together but those marital ties are still easily broken even if they are renewed generation after generation, the Justmans ruled the Riverlands just fine too..

 

But those aren't only lesser lords, Mullendore, Beesbury and co are all powerful lords and nowhere it's said that Hightower can beat Highgarden but that Hightower is powerful enough to give Highgarden pause, if Hightower sides with the crown,kt's very doubtful that many actually side with their overlord.

 

The Hightowers support their own, they supported both the Mad King and Renly because Mace is married to them, they supportetd Aegon 2 because the man was their cousin and they would support Robert because he's married to them.

 

 

 

 No one says that Tywin does anything without expecting something in return but Tywin didn't sack KL with a marriage pact in mind, that simply doesn't come out of his mouth, he himself says that he did what he did to prove himself to Robert,  Tywin had every expectation that Lyanna if she was alive would be Queen because that was Robert's mind was at.

Tywin didn't have the upper hand, he had burned every bridge he had with the Targs and his fav son was in Robert's hands, he had a significant army to press his claim but in KL Robert's would likely be bigger. If he wanted a marriage in return he could've stayed home and demand old Jon to meet his expectations... instead of humbling himself before the new king.

 

 

 

 

That's actually a very good point.

 

 

1.  Tywin and Aerys had been "estranged" by more than a decade by then and the KG affair is a last insult that can easily everyone over.
2. I'm sure than the rebels would've given Tywin whatever he wanted for his help before the Trident, rich enough to grieve with dignity.
3. Was he?? If he was anyway, are te rebels aware of that??

If you don't trust him, the more securething is to ask him to charge first, sure if Tywin had betrayed the rebels the loyalist would've won, if not the rebels would crushed them.

 

 

You're not, you're acting as if there is no exceptions in this worlds or no buts, as if saying, it's medieval world automatically means that nothing can change and not exceptions can be made and that's just ludicrous.

Raped woman are solied and therefore unfitto be bride as long the bethrothed decides they are, sure solied women are frowned upon but that's not to say they can't marry but that people usually don't want to marry them,  if Robert wants to marry her, he's marrying her, there is no one stopping him from doing it and yes ofc Robert would be King and Lyanna would be queen.

 

 

When the war started Robert was set on marrying Lyanna, when the Trident happened and the rebels hailed him as King, they all knew Robert was set on marrying Lyanna, so there is no reason to assume that they cared about Robert marrying Lyanna, if not Robert wouldn't have been made pretender, they all would've seen that his stubborness would be a problem lately. As i said, there is a reason why Robert is only talked about the Cersei match, after Lyanna's death. The Faith's been a puppet for a hundred years now, umlikely they say much and what would they say btw??

And don't worry, that's what propaganda is for, if Jaeharys could  make Westeros accept the incest with Seven preachers, there is no problem for Lyanna.

 

 

Tywin knows Rhaegar and does Tywin know what Rhaegar would do if he ever fall in love for someon he wouldn't do?? Or does Tywin agree that Rhaegar thinks that the dragon answers to no one?? Is incredible harsh to make this kind of guesses whn Tywin has never muttered Rhaegar's name in the saga.

 

No need to convulte story at all, she was taken near Harrenhall and abused in Dorno, not like Robert would want to hear everything, or would even care. The kidnapping scenario or anything else only comes out if Lyanna says so, btw since all parties agree that Lyanna was kidnapped, so i doubt it was a lie that part. 

 

 

We don't know what kind of marriage alliances the Justmans maintained, or what state those alliances were in when they fell.

The Hightowers have sided with the crown against their lord at times, and with their lord against the crown at others. In general, though, they take the path that directs violence and warfare away from themselves. They would make a piss-poor ally for Robert.

Tywin most definitely had Queen Cersei in mind when he marched on King's Landing. He still might not have gotten it, but it was definitely part of the calculation. The man is not an idiot. Tywin has the largest army of all the rebel lords and it is his men who are occupying the city, his flags flying over the Red Keep. He is in a very strong position to press his claim.

Hogwash, they would be utter fools to let Tywin in their midst just before the crucial battle to win the war. Even if he took the van, what's to stop him from suddenly wheeling left and/or right to take out the rebel flanks while leaving the center wide open?

Yes, Tywin was believed to be conspiring with Rhaegar ever since the defiance of Duskendale when he was all set to storm the castle. When the other lords said that this would cause Lord Darklyn to kill Aerys, Tywin supposedly said "He may or he may not, but if he does we have a better king right here," pointing to Rhaegar. The funny thing in all of this is that by the time the Trident was happening, Aerys would be just as suspicious of Tywin joining Rhaegar's army as the rebels would be if he offered to join theirs. Nobody trusted Tywin at this point, which speaks to the man's genius and ability to think multiple steps ahead that he so carefully maneuvered his way through the end game.

Sorry, no, there are no exceptions here. Raped, defiled women cannot be queen. If Robert tried to force the issue he would cripple his reign right off the start, if not launch the realm right back into war. It simply cannot happen. Lyanna was off the table the moment she disappeared, regardless of whether she was the victim or complicit. If Robert wanted her, he would have to give up his crown first. It's that simple.

Where do you get the idea that all the rebels knew Robert would marry Lyanna? Nobody was even sure Lyanna was even alive. If this whole kidnap/rape story is true, then the mere fact that Rhaegar has resurfaced without Lyanna is a strong indication that she is dead.

The faith was a puppet to the Targaryens, but the Targaryens are gone. The faith would only be part of Robert's problem. The real hurdle is overcoming eons of chivalric, patriarchal thinking that prizes a woman's virtue above all else. Once that virtue is gone, even if by no fault of her own, she is a soiled woman and soiled women cannot be queen. The only exceptions are widows, because they surrendered their virtue within the bonds of holy matrimony and the gods chose to take their husbands, freeing them to marry again. And even then, a widow becoming a queen is a rare thing, particularly as the first queen to a young, vibrant king, and is usually the result of extreme, unusual circumstances. Sorry, but this is Medieval Culture 101.

It was a huge problem for Jaehaerys to get the faith and the nobility to accept Targ incest. His marriage almost led to bloodshed within the royal family itself, and then had to be kept secret for nearly two years. And even though it did not lead to a general uprising when it was announced (for a number of reasons), it still took years to settle, Queen Alysanne was nearly killed over it, and they had to come up with an entirely new religious doctrine to rationalize it. Please don't think all of this was easy as pie. It very likely could have set the realm on fire all over again, and the Targs had clear advantages (namely dragons) to press their cause that Robert does not have.

Yes, Tywin knows Rhaegar, saw him grow up in the Red Keep. He knows he is not a man to take such rash, heedless action. Ned knows this as well.

The only reason this kidnap story exists at all is because some nameless, faceless person rode up to Brandon and told him this is what happened. We have no reason to expect this is the truth, especially when it contradicts virtually everyone's memory of Rhaegar as an honorable, capable, thoughtful man. It is a long way from Harrenhall to Dorne, so yes, if Lyanna is to be queen, she'll have to come up with something more than "I was riding alone in the forest (which itself is grounds for people to question or suitability as queen), and suddenly I was in a tower with Ned." For her not to tell her story and then have Robert command that it never be spoken of again would be very difficult for the court to swallow. And as I said, victim or not, her defilement alone makes her ineligible for consideration.

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 12/21/2019 at 7:49 PM, Mrstrategy said:

What are some alternate wife's for Robert baratheon instead of cersei lannister?

None. Their marriage is a major plot point

[frenin]

5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

We don't know what kind of marriage alliances the Justmans maintained, or what state those alliances were in when they fell.

The Hightowers have sided with the crown against their lord at times, and with their lord against the crown at others. In general, though, they take the path that directs violence and warfare away from themselves. They would make a piss-poor ally for Robert.

We do know however why they rose and why they fall and it wasn't due to desunity.

The Hightowers side with family, whether that goes is not up to them, the times where they keep their arms at lenght is precisely the times when blood ties aren't  involved.

 

5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Tywin most definitely had Queen Cersei in mind when he marched on King's Landing. He still might not have gotten it, but it was definitely part of the calculation. The man is not an idiot. Tywin has the largest army of all the rebel lords and it is his men who are occupying the city, his flags flying over the Red Keep. He is in a very strong position to press his claim.

 

The man is not an idiot but he can't make the impossible happen, Queen Cersei was out of his hands by then even if KL fell, Tywin had 12k men at KL, The rebels likely had much more men than that, especially since those undecided as the Freys were bringing  all their might to the rebel side after the Trident. That's why Tywin doesn't press any claim.

 

 

5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

 Hogwash, they would be utter fools to let Tywin in their midst just before the crucial battle to win the war. Even if he took the van, what's to stop him from suddenly wheeling left and/or right to take out the rebel flanks while leaving the center wide open?

 

I assume that him charging to the loyalists side and the rebels not attacking until he's bloodied enough.

 

 

5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

 Yes, Tywin was believed to be conspiring with Rhaegar ever since the defiance of Duskendale when he was all set to storm the castle. When the other lords said that this would cause Lord Darklyn to kill Aerys, Tywin supposedly said "He may or he may not, but if he does we have a better king right here," pointing to Rhaegar. The funny thing in all of this is that by the time the Trident was happening, Aerys would be just as suspicious of Tywin joining Rhaegar's army as the rebels would be if he offered to join theirs. Nobody trusted Tywin at this point, which speaks to the man's genius and ability to think multiple steps ahead that he so carefully maneuvered his way through the end game.

 

Aerys believed that and scholars have been wondering too whether Tywin wanted him dead or not, but nowhere is said that the suspect was spread, not that Tywin conspired with Rhaegar.

 

 

5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Sorry, no, there are no exceptions here. Raped, defiled women cannot be queen. If Robert tried to force the issue he would cripple his reign right off the start, if not launch the realm right back into war. It simply cannot happen. Lyanna was off the table the moment she disappeared, regardless of whether she was the victim or complicit. If Robert wanted her, he would have to give up his crown first. It's that simple.

Where do you get the idea that all the rebels knew Robert would marry Lyanna? Nobody was even sure Lyanna was even alive. If this whole kidnap/rape story is true, then the mere fact that Rhaegar has resurfaced without Lyanna is a strong indication that she is dead.

Sure there are exceptions, that's not a law, neither is a doctrine of the Faith. In fact is just your assumption that the match couldn't happen or that people would revolt for it. Robert would marry her and keep his crown, is that simple.

Robert's mindset was clear to absolutely everyone, perhaps some people believed she was dead, but everyone knew what was going to happen if she was alive and they made a decision regardless of that, so that clearly wasn't the issue you want to believe it was.

 

 

5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

The faith was a puppet to the Targaryens, but the Targaryens are gone. The faith would only be part of Robert's problem. The real hurdle is overcoming eons of chivalric, patriarchal thinking that prizes a woman's virtue above all else. Once that virtue is gone, even if by no fault of her own, she is a soiled woman and soiled women cannot be queen. The only exceptions are widows, because they surrendered their virtue within the bonds of holy matrimony and the gods chose to take their husbands, freeing them to marry again. And even then, a widow becoming a queen is a rare thing, particularly as the first queen to a young, vibrant king, and is usually the result of extreme, unusual circumstances. Sorry, but this is Medieval Culture 101.

 

The Faith remains puppet until the Sparrow comes, some people might think of it as a disgrace, but Robert's allies wouldn't mind and there is nothing that time can't heal, is not Medieval Culture 101, it's your 21st Century conception of what Medieval Culture is, no one ever believes the matche impossible, in fact as i repeatedly told you, the Cersei match is only brought on the table after the news of Lyanna's death reached the court.

 

6 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

 It was a huge problem for Jaehaerys to get the faith and the nobility to accept Targ incest. His marriage almost led to bloodshed within the royal family itself, and then had to be kept secret for nearly two years. And even though it did not lead to a general uprising when it was announced (for a number of reasons), it still took years to settle, Queen Alysanne was nearly killed over it, and they had to come up with an entirely new religious doctrine to rationalize it. Please don't think all of this was easy as pie. It very likely could have set the realm on fire all over again, and the Targs had clear advantages (namely dragons) to press their cause that Robert does not have.

 

Well, neither is Robert's case a sin against the Gods and an abomination, in fact this is what we're told about Aegon 1, that familiarty was the father of acceptace and that the Realm grew used to Aegon's wives. Robert is breaking good manners that'si t, a millenias long good manners, but good manners still, nothing that a good PR campaign can't solve.

 

 

5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Yes, Tywin knows Rhaegar, saw him grow up in the Red Keep. He knows he is not a man to take such rash, heedless action. Ned knows this as well.

 

Does he know?? Based on what?? On what we know of Rhaegar or in what you believe of Rhaegar?? Ned believes Rheagar wasn't the whoring type tho, nothing else, nothing less.

 

 

 

6 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

 The only reason this kidnap story exists at all is because some nameless, faceless person rode up to Brandon and told him this is what happened. We have no reason to expect this is the truth, especially when it contradicts virtually everyone's memory of Rhaegar as an honorable, capable, thoughtful man. It is a long way from Harrenhall to Dorne, so yes, if Lyanna is to be queen, she'll have to come up with something more than "I was riding alone in the forest (which itself is grounds for people to question or suitability as queen), and suddenly I was in a tower with Ned." For her not to tell her story and then have Robert command that it never be spoken of again would be very difficult for the court to swallow. And as I said, victim or not, her defilement alone makes her ineligible for consideration.

As far as i can see both sides of the war do agree on the abducion part but disagree on the reasons why Rhaegar abducted Lyanna and, allegedly, why did Rhaegar once Lyanna was on her power, but at this point, the only ones that have quesioned the abduction story are the fandom. Not that it contradicts everyone's memory of Rhaegar, just those who loved Rhaegar, and there is a reason why Lyanna's choice is never uttered right??

Don't know what has the fact that she was riding alone to do with her siutability as Queen, not where is said that she was alone, now why it would be very difficult to swallow, you're putting yourselves the walls, not the characters. And as i said, her defilement is completely irrelevant, since Robert has no intention to follow anyone's elses advices on the matter, so maybe if you want to believe it,  the decision cripples the new dynasty but the fact remains that it was Robert's decision, he was not going to back down and the rebels loved him and knew him, Lyanna was going to be Robert's Queen.

[John Suburbs]

16 hours ago, frenin said:

We do know however why they rose and why they fall and it wasn't due to desunity.

The Hightowers side with family, whether that goes is not up to them, the times where they keep their arms at lenght is precisely the times when blood ties aren't  involved.

 

The man is not an idiot but he can't make the impossible happen, Queen Cersei was out of his hands by then even if KL fell, Tywin had 12k men at KL, The rebels likely had much more men than that, especially since those undecided as the Freys were bringing  all their might to the rebel side after the Trident. That's why Tywin doesn't press any claim.

 

 

I assume that him charging to the loyalists side and the rebels not attacking until he's bloodied enough.

 

 

Aerys believed that and scholars have been wondering too whether Tywin wanted him dead or not, but nowhere is said that the suspect was spread, not that Tywin conspired with Rhaegar.

 

 

Sure there are exceptions, that's not a law, neither is a doctrine of the Faith. In fact is just your assumption that the match couldn't happen or that people would revolt for it. Robert would marry her and keep his crown, is that simple.

Robert's mindset was clear to absolutely everyone, perhaps some people believed she was dead, but everyone knew what was going to happen if she was alive and they made a decision regardless of that, so that clearly wasn't the issue you want to believe it was.

 

 

The Faith remains puppet until the Sparrow comes, some people might think of it as a disgrace, but Robert's allies wouldn't mind and there is nothing that time can't heal, is not Medieval Culture 101, it's your 21st Century conception of what Medieval Culture is, no one ever believes the matche impossible, in fact as i repeatedly told you, the Cersei match is only brought on the table after the news of Lyanna's death reached the court.

 

Well, neither is Robert's case a sin against the Gods and an abomination, in fact this is what we're told about Aegon 1, that familiarty was the father of acceptace and that the Realm grew used to Aegon's wives. Robert is breaking good manners that'si t, a millenias long good manners, but good manners still, nothing that a good PR campaign can't solve.

 

 

Does he know?? Based on what?? On what we know of Rhaegar or in what you believe of Rhaegar?? Ned believes Rheagar wasn't the whoring type tho, nothing else, nothing less.

 

 

 

As far as i can see both sides of the war do agree on the abducion part but disagree on the reasons why Rhaegar abducted Lyanna and, allegedly, why did Rhaegar once Lyanna was on her power, but at this point, the only ones that have quesioned the abduction story are the fandom. Not that it contradicts everyone's memory of Rhaegar, just those who loved Rhaegar, and there is a reason why Lyanna's choice is never uttered right??

Don't know what has the fact that she was riding alone to do with her siutability as Queen, not where is said that she was alone, now why it would be very difficult to swallow, you're putting yourselves the walls, not the characters. And as i said, her defilement is completely irrelevant, since Robert has no intention to follow anyone's elses advices on the matter, so maybe if you want to believe it,  the decision cripples the new dynasty but the fact remains that it was Robert's decision, he was not going to back down and the rebels loved him and knew him, Lyanna was going to be Robert's Queen.

Really? How do you know what issues were plaguing the Justmans? If they had unity, then they likely would not have fallen.

The Hightowers do not side with family. There are many instances in which they refused to join, or actively fought, the Gardeners and the Tyrells.

Sorry, but Queen Cersei was much on his mind the whole time. There is simply no way it wouldn't be. It might not have been a certainty, but it is the strongest possibility now that Lyanna is off the table. Tywin has control of the city and the largest army of any lord. The rebels were beaten to the extreme at the Trident while Tywin's men are strong and hae the best armor and weapons. It would have gotten very ugly for Robert B, and might have cost him his crown, if Cersei was not chosen.

You would assume wrong. If Tywin is in league with Rhaegar, he would not charge the royalist side, he would immediately wheel his columns left and right to take out the rebel flanks while Rheagar would charge the now defenseless center.

It doesn't matter what the truth of the matter was, there was every reason in the world to believe that Tywin could be feigning alliance in a plot with Rhaegar. The stakes are simply too high to take that chance.

No, marriage to Lyanna would launch the realm into a political crisis at a time when the new dynasty needs peace and stability. It was never going to happen.

Based on what everybody, Ned, Selmy, Jorah, Gyldayne and virtually anyone who ever encountered the man: he was not mad, he was not lustful, he was not rash: he was studious, somber, and above all honorable. This story is completely out of character according to every source we have except Robert, and Robert is chasing ghosts.

Highborn ladies do not go riding off into the woods on their own, not in the south anyway. Of course this would not be a deal-breaker, but it would not give people a good feeling knowing that their queen could up and disappear at any moment. Succession is based on heritage, and a queen who vanishes like that cannot guarantee that her children are of the king, and that opens the potential to yet another civil war, which nobody wants.

This kidnap story is a lie that will be almost impossible to keep under wraps, and Tywin likely knows that. Lyanna is damaged goods. She cannot become queen.

[frenin]

6 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Really? How do you know what issues were plaguing the Justmans? If they had unity, then they likely would not have fallen.

 

The Justmans fell because they were defeated by Qhored the Cruel. 

 

 

7 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

 The Hightowers do not side with family. There are many instances in which they refused to join, or actively fought, the Gardeners and the Tyrells.

 

Were they kin to them in those instances or are you just assuming they were??

 

 

8 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

 Sorry, but Queen Cersei was much on his mind the whole time. There is simply no way it wouldn't be. It might not have been a certainty, but it is the strongest possibility now that Lyanna is off the table. Tywin has control of the city and the largest army of any lord. The rebels were beaten to the extreme at the Trident while Tywin's men are strong and hae the best armor and weapons. It would have gotten very ugly for Robert B, and might have cost him his crown, if Cersei was not chosen.

 

Sorry but you don't have any prove to this but your headcanon and certainly not Tywin, whom by his words wanted to prove the rebels he was on their side. Neither Lyanna was off the table, nor Tywin had, as far as we know, the largest army there. The rebels were beaten to the extreme?? Well it depends of Robert's casualties in the Trident and entirely depends of the levies that started to join his ranks after the Trident, all in all it's far more likely than the rebels overwhelmed Tywin in the Red Keep that the other wau around.

 

 

15 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

 You would assume wrong. If Tywin is in league with Rhaegar, he would not charge the royalist side, he would immediately wheel his columns left and right to take out the rebel flanks while Rheagar would charge the now defenseless center.

 It doesn't matter what the truth of the matter was, there was every reason in the world to believe that Tywin could be feigning alliance in a plot with Rhaegar. The stakes are simply too high to take that chance.

 

 

You should talk to Ned who say that the rebels repeatedly asked for his help.

 

 

20 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

 No, marriage to Lyanna would launch the realm into a political crisis at a time when the new dynasty needs peace and stability. It was never going to happen.

 

It would launch the Realm into a political chaos in your fancanon and even it were, as long as it was Robert the one who had the final say, it was going to happen. As i said time after time, there is a very good reason why old Jon only talked Robert into marry Cersei after Lyanna's death news reached to court, no one doubted of it...but you.

 

 

 

24 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

 Based on what everybody, Ned, Selmy, Jorah, Gyldayne and virtually anyone who ever encountered the man: he was not mad, he was not lustful, he was not rash: he was studious, somber, and above all honorable. This story is completely out of character according to every source we have except Robert, and Robert is chasing ghosts.

 

Barristan himself only is capable of saying that Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna and that thousands die for it, at any point Ned deems him honorable, he just thinks he wasn't a whoremonger,  Jorah is passing himself as a loyalist and didn't know Rhaegar at all.

In fact no one but the fans have ever doubted about the abduction tale. 

 

 

28 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

 Highborn ladies do not go riding off into the woods on their own, not in the south anyway. Of course this would not be a deal-breaker, but it would not give people a good feeling knowing that their queen could up and disappear at any moment. Succession is based on heritage, and a queen who vanishes like that cannot guarantee that her children are of the king, and that opens the potential to yet another civil war, which nobody wants.

 

 Highborn ladies do not go riding off in the woods, that much i can agree, even when Alyssa Targ was exactly like that and no one thought of it as a no-no.  Maybe and only maybe, the Queen would vanish in company with the KG or the likes?? Or now do you think that people would believe the KG got her pregnant?? Besides, the Baratheon traits are recognizable enough for everyone to see that the children are the King's.

 

 

 

34 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

 This kidnap story is a lie that will be almost impossible to keep under wraps, and Tywin likely knows that. Lyanna is damaged goods. She cannot become queen.

The abduction story is a lie that both sides believe, so it mihgt actually happened, not that it's difficult to keep under wraps siince to this day people believe on that. I'm startng to wonder if you think there is something Tywin can't know.

Lyanna may be all the damaged goods you want, she would've been Robert's Queen.

 

[John Suburbs]

On 1/3/2020 at 3:58 PM, frenin said:

The Justmans fell because they were defeated by Qhored the Cruel. 

 

 

Were they kin to them in those instances or are you just assuming they were??

 

 

Sorry but you don't have any prove to this but your headcanon and certainly not Tywin, whom by his words wanted to prove the rebels he was on their side. Neither Lyanna was off the table, nor Tywin had, as far as we know, the largest army there. The rebels were beaten to the extreme?? Well it depends of Robert's casualties in the Trident and entirely depends of the levies that started to join his ranks after the Trident, all in all it's far more likely than the rebels overwhelmed Tywin in the Red Keep that the other wau around.

 

 

 

You should talk to Ned who say that the rebels repeatedly asked for his help.

 

 

It would launch the Realm into a political chaos in your fancanon and even it were, as long as it was Robert the one who had the final say, it was going to happen. As i said time after time, there is a very good reason why old Jon only talked Robert into marry Cersei after Lyanna's death news reached to court, no one doubted of it...but you.

 

 

 

Barristan himself only is capable of saying that Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna and that thousands die for it, at any point Ned deems him honorable, he just thinks he wasn't a whoremonger,  Jorah is passing himself as a loyalist and didn't know Rhaegar at all.

In fact no one but the fans have ever doubted about the abduction tale. 

 

 

 Highborn ladies do not go riding off in the woods, that much i can agree, even when Alyssa Targ was exactly like that and no one thought of it as a no-no.  Maybe and only maybe, the Queen would vanish in company with the KG or the likes?? Or now do you think that people would believe the KG got her pregnant?? Besides, the Baratheon traits are recognizable enough for everyone to see that the children are the King's.

 

 

 

The abduction story is a lie that both sides believe, so it mihgt actually happened, not that it's difficult to keep under wraps siince to this day people believe on that. I'm startng to wonder if you think there is something Tywin can't know.

Lyanna may be all the damaged goods you want, she would've been Robert's Queen.

 

Yes, they were overthrown, and that was most likely due to the fact that they lacked critical support among their banners.

The Hightowers married into House Gardener right from the start. They were never conquered. The Hightowers then refused to join the Gardeners on several occasions, lastly when they marched against Aegon I. They Tyrells were the same. To think that these two principal houses of the Reach have not intermarried is absurd. Their common defense demands it.

To think that Tywin Lannister is not considering the future of his daughter, whom he's been trying to make a queen since she was a little girl, is also absurd. There is absolutely no way a clever, ambitious man like Tywin would fail to see the opportunity here. To think otherwise is headcanon that is completely divorced from the text.

Sure, both sides wanted to Tywin with them. The question, though, is whether they could trust him if he did so. And the answer to that is a big fat No. And he most certainly could not have sided with the rebels because Aerys held Jaime in the Red Keep. So, no, nobody is confused as to why Tywin sat out the early part of the war, and no readers should be confused by what he did after the Trident. It was the only way to get Jaime out alive.

At the time of his wedding, Robert was not the all-powerful king that you see know. He was still on very shaky ground, with the Reach, the Dornish, the Iron Isles, and half the lords in the Riverlands and a good number in the Vale opposed to him. It would not take much to bring on a counter rebellion, and Robert choosing a soiled bride over Cersei would not only alienate the westerlands but a good number of lords who had supported him previously. This could very well have tipped the scales against Robert and brought his reign down before it had even been firmly established. Your fancanon is the idea that the moment Robert Baratheon sat the Iron Throne, with his bloodied, battered army surrounded by tens of thousands of entirely fresh levies in the Reach and westerlands, that he was the undisputed King and could act as he pleased, and this is clearly not the case. Otherwise, they would not have bothered quieting things down in Dorne or even married him to Cersei. They did these things because they had to in order to secure Robert on the throne. Even kings are bound by the practical, political realities of their domains.

Lol, Rhaegar is not prone to visiting brothels but he is prone to kidnapping and raping the daughter of a great house and letting the realm bleed while he has his way with her. Sorry, but there is nothing in the remembrances of Rhaegar nor in the histories to suggest that he was a madman with this kind of bloodlust. You are literally arguing that Rhaegar is on the same level as Ramsay Bolton. This is fanfic of the most ludicrous kind because it is so completely divorced from the text.

I don't recall any tales of Allysa Targaryen riding off all alone. She liked to ride and fight and climb, but never unsupervised as far as we can tell, and most likely usually within the Red Keep. No highborn, male or female, rides off alone unattended unless it is a dire emergency. Look at Robert and Ned on the way back to King's Landing. Two of the fiercest fighting men in the realm, fully armed and armored, and they still have a tail. Look at Robb and Bran on Bran's first ride outside Winterfell on Dancer: Robb and Theon armed and armored, and a half-dozen guardsmen for protection -- and still they nearly died. Cersei inspecting the defenses of King's Landing, Tyrion with Bronn out in the city . . . It is simply too dangerous for highborns to be alone outside their castles. Their clothes alone are worth more than a smallfolk could hope to earn in a lifetime.

So, no, there is absolutely no reason why a smart man like Tywin should believe any of this. The single most-likely answer as that Lyanna went willingly, which would absolutely quash any chance she had of being queen. And yes, I question whether Ned, Varys, Pycelle and virtually anyone else with half a brain actually believes this. The only one who does is Robert, and that is probably willful on the part of his subconscious because his conscious mind cannot, will not, accept the truth. 

 

 

[frenin]

50 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Yes, they were overthrown, and that was most likely due to the fact that they lacked critical support among their banners.

 

They weren't overthrownn, the Ironborn ended the line.

 

51 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

 The Hightowers married into House Gardener right from the start. They were never conquered. The Hightowers then refused to join the Gardeners on several occasions, lastly when they marched against Aegon I. They Tyrells were the same. To think that these two principal houses of the Reach have not intermarried is absurd. Their common defense demands it.

 

I never said that they didn't intermarry, i said that when the Gardeners marched on their wars, their relations were distant to say the least, you don't know the relations between those two Houses,  we only know that the Hightowers refused the call on several occasions in thousands years. 

 

 

55 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Sure, both sides wanted to Tywin with them. The question, though, is whether they could trust him if he did so. And the answer to that is a big fat No. And he most certainly could not have sided with the rebels because Aerys held Jaime in the Red Keep. So, no, nobody is confused as to why Tywin sat out the early part of the war, and no readers should be confused by what he did after the Trident. It was the only way to get Jaime out alive.

 

I don't know, did you read Ned's and Cat's chapters?? Because it seems that you're ignoring absolutely everything they say for your headcanon, Ned himself doesn't think that Tywin could be untrustworthy, you simply don't reach out for help someone you don't trust, they didn't think Jaime was an unsortable hurdle, or more likely they thought that Jaime was Aerrys anyway.

Ned himself is embittered because Tywin only joined the party when Robert's victory was all but assured.

 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

 To think that Tywin Lannister is not considering the future of his daughter, whom he's been trying to make a queen since she was a little girl, is also absurd. There is absolutely no way a clever, ambitious man like Tywin would fail to see the opportunity here. To think otherwise is headcanon that is completely divorced from the text.

 

It's incredible, honestly, Tywin himself gives us his reasons, Cersei dosn't appear in them but to think otherwise is headcanon completely divorced from th text. You want to prove it?? Quote it.

 

 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

 At the time of his wedding, Robert was not the all-powerful king that you see know. He was still on very shaky ground, with the Reach, the Dornish, the Iron Isles, and half the lords in the Riverlands and a good number in the Vale opposed to him. It would not take much to bring on a counter rebellion, and Robert choosing a soiled bride over Cersei would not only alienate the westerlands but a good number of lords who had supported him previously. This could very well have tipped the scales against Robert and brought his reign down before it had even been firmly established. Your fancanon is the idea that the moment Robert Baratheon sat the Iron Throne, with his bloodied, battered army surrounded by tens of thousands of entirely fresh levies in the Reach and westerlands, that he was the undisputed King and could act as he pleased, and this is clearly not the case. Otherwise, they would not have bothered quieting things down in Dorne or even married him to Cersei. They did these things because they had to in order to secure Robert on the throne. Even kings are bound by the practical, political realities of their domains.

 

At the time of his wedding, the Reach had bent the knee and it was clear that they weren't fighting a lost cause anytime soon, the Dornish had bent the knee and started their long game, the Iron Islands were getting ready to revolt,  the Lords of the Riverlands opposed to Robert had been either punished into irrelevance (Darry) or made their peace with Hoster and Robert (Goodbrok), no one in the Vale opposed him, as far as we know, every loyalist in the Vale either joined Robert or was dealt with before Jon Arryn lefft the Vale and after the rebels took Gulltown. And Robert desire of marrying soiled Lyanna was well known by all his rebels lords.  

At any rate i'm saying that Robert would do it because he was undisputed King and he could act as he pleased, but because Robert would simply not attend any reason and do it regardless of everything. And there is a reason why the Cersei match only was put forth after Lyanna's death.

 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

 Lol, Rhaegar is not prone to visiting brothels but he is prone to kidnapping and raping the daughter of a great house and letting the realm bleed while he has his way with her. Sorry, but there is nothing in the remembrances of Rhaegar nor in the histories to suggest that he was a madman with this kind of bloodlust. You are literally arguing that Rhaegar is on the same level as Ramsay Bolton. This is fanfic of the most ludicrous kind because it is so completely divorced from the text.

 

... Isn't what he did?? Didn't he dissapear with the daughter of a Great Lord and let the realm bleed while he had his way with her??

As i said, there is no character that dispute the  kidnapping story, whether you like it or not, so there is no reason to suspect Tywin was one of them.

 

 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

 I don't recall any tales of Allysa Targaryen riding off all alone. She liked to ride and fight and climb, but never unsupervised as far as we can tell, and most likely usually within the Red Keep. No highborn, male or female, rides off alone unattended unless it is a dire emergency. Look at Robert and Ned on the way back to King's Landing. Two of the fiercest fighting men in the realm, fully armed and armored, and they still have a tail. Look at Robb and Bran on Bran's first ride outside Winterfell on Dancer: Robb and Theon armed and armored, and a half-dozen guardsmen for protection -- and still they nearly died. Cersei inspecting the defenses of King's Landing, Tyrion with Bronn out in the city . . . It is simply too dangerous for highborns to be alone outside their castles. Their clothes alone are worth more than a smallfolk could hope to earn in a lifetime.

 

Again, you're arguing your strawman, at any rate it was said that Lyanna rode alone.

 

 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

 So, no, there is absolutely no reason why a smart man like Tywin should believe any of this. The single most-likely answer as that Lyanna went willingly, which would absolutely quash any chance she had of being queen. And yes, I question whether Ned, Varys, Pycelle and virtually anyone else with half a brain actually believes this. The only one who does is Robert, and that is probably willful on the part of his subconscious because his conscious mind cannot, will not, accept the truth. 

 

This is just absurd.

[Bernie Mac]

On 12/24/2019 at 3:50 AM, frenin said:

 

Why?? Tywin sacked KL with no intention of getting a royal marriage,  only to prove himself a rebel, you're giving him a motivation he himself didn't have.

Where do you get that from? His motivation was to cosy up to the new King. Who do you think he was saving Cersei for at that point?

You can't say he had no motivation not to cement his relationship to the new king with a marriage alliance. That seems absurd that it was not some kind of consideration in his head.

[frenin]

5 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Where do you get that from? His motivation was to cosy up to the new King. Who do you think he was saving Cersei for at that point?

You can't say he had no motivation not to cement his relationship to the new king with a marriage alliance. That seems absurd that it was not some kind of consideration in his head.

From Tywin, who never mentions Cersei, Cersei was being saved for Rhaegar or Viserys, he was getting any as long as Aerys lived and she happened to be available at the moment of the Robellion, don't really doubt he aimed for a royal match if it got in handy, i doubt he aimed for Robert  from the beginning since it was quite clear that Robert was marrying Lyanna no matter what. Jon Arryn started to talking him into marrying Cersei after Lyanna died.

[John Suburbs]

20 hours ago, frenin said:

They weren't overthrownn, the Ironborn ended the line.

 

I never said that they didn't intermarry, i said that when the Gardeners marched on their wars, their relations were distant to say the least, you don't know the relations between those two Houses,  we only know that the Hightowers refused the call on several occasions in thousands years. 

 

 

I don't know, did you read Ned's and Cat's chapters?? Because it seems that you're ignoring absolutely everything they say for your headcanon, Ned himself doesn't think that Tywin could be untrustworthy, you simply don't reach out for help someone you don't trust, they didn't think Jaime was an unsortable hurdle, or more likely they thought that Jaime was Aerrys anyway.

Ned himself is embittered because Tywin only joined the party when Robert's victory was all but assured.

 

It's incredible, honestly, Tywin himself gives us his reasons, Cersei dosn't appear in them but to think otherwise is headcanon completely divorced from th text. You want to prove it?? Quote it.

 

 

At the time of his wedding, the Reach had bent the knee and it was clear that they weren't fighting a lost cause anytime soon, the Dornish had bent the knee and started their long game, the Iron Islands were getting ready to revolt,  the Lords of the Riverlands opposed to Robert had been either punished into irrelevance (Darry) or made their peace with Hoster and Robert (Goodbrok), no one in the Vale opposed him, as far as we know, every loyalist in the Vale either joined Robert or was dealt with before Jon Arryn lefft the Vale and after the rebels took Gulltown. And Robert desire of marrying soiled Lyanna was well known by all his rebels lords.  

At any rate i'm saying that Robert would do it because he was undisputed King and he could act as he pleased, but because Robert would simply not attend any reason and do it regardless of everything. And there is a reason why the Cersei match only was put forth after Lyanna's death.

 

... Isn't what he did?? Didn't he dissapear with the daughter of a Great Lord and let the realm bleed while he had his way with her??

As i said, there is no character that dispute the  kidnapping story, whether you like it or not, so there is no reason to suspect Tywin was one of them.

 

 

Again, you're arguing your strawman, at any rate it was said that Lyanna rode alone.

 

 

This is just absurd.

Well if the ironborn ended the line, how is that different from being overthrown? 

The Hightowers are one of the principal houses of the Reach. It is simply impossible that they do not have extensive family ties to the overlords of the Reach. This is how great houses maintain stability within their realms, and as I've already explained, this is more crucial in the Reach than anywhere else because they are so open to invasion.

Ned had absolutely no reason to trust Tywin then or now. Tywin was the Machiavellian strongman who ran the kingdom with an iron fist until he quit. Aerys has Tywin's son in the Red Keep. Tywin's intentions are unknown throughout the war. If they sent missives asking for help, you can bet that help did not extend to marching to the Trident and forming up with the rebel line because there is no way they could trust Tywin not to simply turn and attack the rebels at the first charge. If Ned and Robert do not consider this, you can bet your hat that Jon Arryn and Hoster Tully would.

Part of understanding Martin is puzzling out the many things that are not stated outright. With all we know of Tywin's character and how he operates, it is simply inconceivable that he wasn't thinking about making Cersei queen at this point. He's been thinking about little else since she was a little girl.

At the time of the wedding, the Reach had the largest army on the continent, probably 50,000 or more, and they had already beaten Robert once; the Lannisters are next with maybe 12,000. The North, the Riverlands, the Stormlands and the Vale combined have only a fraction of the 40,000 they brought to the Trident -- I'd be surprised if it was even half. All the loyalists in the Vale and Riverlands were forced into submission and most, but perhaps not all, would jump at the chance of deposing him. This is a very unstable situation for Robert; he is not the undisputed king and there is no way he can just declare a soiled woman, and a willingly soiled woman at that, as his new queen. Sorry, but no.

Rhaegar disappeared at the same time as Lyanna. Beyond that, there is nothing that suggests this rape/kidnap story is true. Do you honestly believe that if Rhaegar was as mad as Ramsay that the people who knew him -- Ned, Selmy, Tywin, Cersei, etc. -- would not know that? Sorry, but you are way off the deep end now. 

 

[frenin]

38 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Well if the ironborn ended the line, how is that different from being overthrown? 

 

Because another foreign power destroyed them and weren't deposed within inside?? It's a technicality but people use that word for inside jobs. Orys Baratheon didn't overthrew the Durrandons and the Stormlands, he conquered them, Robert did overthrow the Targs.

 

 

38 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

 The Hightowers are one of the principal houses of the Reach. It is simply impossible that they do not have extensive family ties to the overlords of the Reach. This is how great houses maintain stability within their realms, and as I've already explained, this is more crucial in the Reach than anywhere else because they are so open to invasion.

 

You keep using circular arguments to defend everything and then using more circular arguments to defend the first circular arguments. The instance in that we know the Hightowers are married to a House, the Hightowers always side with family but from a complete absence of evidence you want to claim it isn't true.

 

 

38 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

 Ned had absolutely no reason to trust Tywin then or now. Tywin was the Machiavellian strongman who ran the kingdom with an iron fist until he quit. Aerys has Tywin's son in the Red Keep. Tywin's intentions are unknown throughout the war. If they sent missives asking for help, you can bet that help did not extend to marching to the Trident and forming up with the rebel line because there is no way they could trust Tywin not to simply turn and attack the rebels at the first charge. If Ned and Robert do not consider this, you can bet your hat that Jon Arryn and Hoster Tully would.

 

I don't know what to say to this but i trust Ned's words instead of your own fancanon.

 

 

 

38 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

 Part of understanding Martin is puzzling out the many things that are not stated outright. With all we know of Tywin's character and how he operates, it is simply inconceivable that he wasn't thinking about making Cersei queen at this point. He's been thinking about little else since she was a little girl.

 

We also may be tempted to say that Walder was thinking in little Edmure when he made his move on the Trident, he might have a better chance there than removing from the equation a living Lyanna.

Cersei Queen might be Tywin's wet dream but it was an impossible one at the moment, so Tywin only moved to etter positiante himself with Robert's regime and ake whatever opportunities it might offer.

 

 

38 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

 At the time of the wedding, the Reach had the largest army on the continent, probably 50,000 or more, and they had already beaten Robert once; the Lannisters are next with maybe 12,000. The North, the Riverlands, the Stormlands and the Vale combined have only a fraction of the 40,000 they brought to the Trident -- I'd be surprised if it was even half. All the loyalists in the Vale and Riverlands were forced into submission and most, but perhaps not all, would jump at the chance of deposing him. This is a very unstable situation for Robert; he is not the undisputed king and there is no way he can just declare a soiled woman, and a willingly soiled woman at that, as his new queen. Sorry, but no.

 

At the time of the wedding as per Martin's own words the Reach were not fighting Robert anymore because they saw the Targs as a lost cause, Tywin had already and without any conditions declared for Robert, the Vale lords were loyal to Robert, only the Graftons and the Corbrays fought at the beginning for the Targs and we know that the Corbrays fought for the rebel sideon the Trident so the Graftons either switched sides or was beaten into submission. The very same goes for the Riverlords, whom Hoster was  dealing with. The idea that the loyalist could bear the Sack of KL, Jaime killing his King and th murder of Elia and her kids but revolt over Lyanna because it's ok a KG killing his King but god forbids a soiled woman on the Throne  is just a meme. If there was  a way to stop Robert from just marrying Lyanna i'd even want to discuss it seriously, but there wasn't.  Robert was going to do whatever the hell he wanted on that particular matter without caring of what others might react. Sorry, but yes.

 

 

 

38 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

 Rhaegar disappeared at the same time as Lyanna. Beyond that, there is nothing that suggests this rape/kidnap story is true. Do you honestly believe that if Rhaegar was as mad as Ramsay that the people who knew him -- Ned, Selmy, Tywin, Cersei, etc. -- would not know that? Sorry, but you are way off the deep end now. 

 

1.  Every story we have tells us about Rhaegar taking away Lyanna.
2. Ned didn't know Rhaegar.
3. Selmy only says that Rhaegar loved Lyanna and thousands died for it.
4. Cersei is obssesed with Rhaegar.
5. Tywin never, not once says one thing about Rhaegar during the main series.

There is just an at consequentiam.

[John Suburbs]

3 hours ago, frenin said:

Because another foreign power destroyed them and weren't deposed within inside?? It's a technicality but people use that word for inside jobs. Orys Baratheon didn't overthrew the Durrandons and the Stormlands, he conquered them, Robert did overthrow the Targs.

 

 

You keep using circular arguments to defend everything and then using more circular arguments to defend the first circular arguments. The instance in that we know the Hightowers are married to a House, the Hightowers always side with family but from a complete absence of evidence you want to claim it isn't true.

 

 

I don't know what to say to this but i trust Ned's words instead of your own fancanon.

 

 

 

We also may be tempted to say that Walder was thinking in little Edmure when he made his move on the Trident, he might have a better chance there than removing from the equation a living Lyanna.

Cersei Queen might be Tywin's wet dream but it was an impossible one at the moment, so Tywin only moved to etter positiante himself with Robert's regime and ake whatever opportunities it might offer.

 

 

At the time of the wedding as per Martin's own words the Reach were not fighting Robert anymore because they saw the Targs as a lost cause, Tywin had already and without any conditions declared for Robert, the Vale lords were loyal to Robert, only the Graftons and the Corbrays fought at the beginning for the Targs and we know that the Corbrays fought for the rebel sideon the Trident so the Graftons either switched sides or was beaten into submission. The very same goes for the Riverlords, whom Hoster was  dealing with. The idea that the loyalist could bear the Sack of KL, Jaime killing his King and th murder of Elia and her kids but revolt over Lyanna because it's ok a KG killing his King but god forbids a soiled woman on the Throne  is just a meme. If there was  a way to stop Robert from just marrying Lyanna i'd even want to discuss it seriously, but there wasn't.  Robert was going to do whatever the hell he wanted on that particular matter without caring of what others might react. Sorry, but yes.

 

 

 

1.  Every story we have tells us about Rhaegar taking away Lyanna.
2. Ned didn't know Rhaegar.
3. Selmy only says that Rhaegar loved Lyanna and thousands died for it.
4. Cersei is obssesed with Rhaegar.
5. Tywin never, not once says one thing about Rhaegar during the main series.

There is just an at consequentiam.

Sorry friend, but you have it all wrong and then declare that just because the text doesn't explicitly contradict your wrongness that you must be right.

The Hightowers married into both the Gardeners and the Tyrells. We don't have the full family trees of both houses because they date back thousands of years, but this is the standard mode of operation for every noble house in the realm. You marry your banners for your common defense. The idea that the Hightowers were excluded from this, despite the World Book explicitly stating the opposite, is ludicrous.

Likewise, the idea that Tywin thought of nothing but being on the winning side despite years of planning to make Cersei a queen is equally ludicrous, as is the idea that Robert was the mighty all-powerful king as the fires in King's Landing are still smoldering and the completely absurd idea that Rhaegar Targaryen was his house's version of Ramsay Bolton.

Sorry, but you're just way too far out on way too many limbs to take this thread seriously anymore. Nuff said.

 

[frenin]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Sorry friend, but you have it all wrong and then declare that just because the text doesn't explicitly contradict your wrongness that you must be right.

 The Hightowers married into both the Gardeners and the Tyrells. We don't have the full family trees of both houses because they date back thousands of years, but this is the standard mode of operation for every noble house in the realm. You marry your banners for your common defense. The idea that the Hightowers were excluded from this, despite the World Book explicitly stating the opposite, is ludicrous.

 Likewise, the idea that Tywin thought of nothing but being on the winning side despite years of planning to make Cersei a queen is equally ludicrous, as is the idea that Robert was the mighty all-powerful king as the fires in King's Landing are still smoldering and the completely absurd idea that Rhaegar Targaryen was his house's version of Ramsay Bolton.

 Sorry, but you're just way too far out on way too many limbs to take this thread seriously anymore. Nuff said.

 

 This is the perfect sum of this thread, you putting forth headcanons and when forced to confront them start using using fallacy after fallacy, you're right, i'm not taking you seriously on this one.

[Greywater-Watch]

13 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

[…]

A ) Likewise, the idea that Tywin thought of nothing but being on the winning side despite years of planning to make Cersei a queen is equally ludicrous,

 B ) as is the idea that Robert was the mighty all-powerful king as the fires in King's Landing are still smoldering

C ) and the completely absurd idea that Rhaegar Targaryen was his house's version of Ramsay Bolton.

[…]

 

ad A ): I think that Tywin had no such direct plans or hopes to marry Cersei to Robert when he marched on KL (or at another time during the rebellion). He was probably 100% concentrated to be on the winner's side in the end. Especially the murdering of Rhaegar's wife and children was to make sure he was on the winner's side (showing he broke with the Targaryens) but for sure no recommendation as the King's future brother-in-law. Tywin couldn't know that Jon Arryn would talk Robert into this marriage.

ad B ): Even if Lyanna had been "spoiled" I agree to frenin, i.e. Robert would have married her, spoiled or not. I mean that is what Robert's character was like. And who would have had reason to oppose him?

ad C ): I do not think that frenin said alike.

[John Suburbs]

10 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

ad A ): I think that Tywin had no such direct plans or hopes to marry Cersei to Robert when he marched on KL (or at another time during the rebellion). He was probably 100% concentrated to be on the winner's side in the end. Especially the murdering of Rhaegar's wife and children was to make sure he was on the winner's side (showing he broke with the Targaryens) but for sure no recommendation as the King's future brother-in-law. Tywin couldn't know that Jon Arryn would talk Robert into this marriage.

ad B ): Even if Lyanna had been "spoiled" I agree to frenin, i.e. Robert would have married her, spoiled or not. I mean that is what Robert's character was like. And who would have had reason to oppose him?

ad C ): I do not think that frenin said alike.

a) of course he would. He has been planning to make Cersei a queen since she was a little girl and here is the perfect opportunity considering Lyanna is off the table and Cersei is the only viable bride among all the rebel lords.

b) if Robert insisted on marrying Lyanna he would have to give up the crown. The nobility simply will not abide a queen who has been soiled, especially if it turns out that she willingly ran off with Rhaegar, which is the far more likely scenario and would certainly be suspected by Tywin by the time he marched. I doubt even Robert would want her in that case.

c) yes, that is exactly what he said. Scroll up:

Quote

John Suburbs:

You are literally arguing that Rhaegar is on the same level as Ramsay Bolton. This is fanfic of the most ludicrous kind because it is so completely divorced from the text.

** this is frenin's underlining here, so this is the specific comment he is responding to.**

Quote

Frenin:

... Isn't (that) what he did?? Didn't he dissapear with the daughter of a Great Lord and let the realm bleed while he had his way with her??

As i said, there is no character that dispute the  kidnapping story, whether you like it or not, so there is no reason to suspect Tywin was one of them.

 

 

[frenin]

47 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

) yes, that is exactly what he said. Scroll up:

Quote

John Suburbs:

You are literally arguing that Rhaegar is on the same level as Ramsay Bolton. This is fanfic of the most ludicrous kind because it is so completely divorced from the text.

** this is frenin's underlining here, so this is the specific comment he is responding to.**

Quote

Frenin:

... Isn't (that) what he did?? Didn't he dissapear with the daughter of a Great Lord and let the realm bleed while he had his way with her??

As i said, there is no character that dispute the  kidnapping story, whether you like it or not, so there is no reason to suspect Tywin was one of them.

Keep arguing your own fallacy?? You're the one comparing Rhaegar with Ramsay with your false dilemma  nonsense, at any rate  i compared Rhaegar and  Ramsay.

[Josette DuPres]

A suitable wife for Robert is a meek and weak woman who would put up with his behavior.  Preferably one who isn't very smart.  In other words, one of the working ladies in Pete's brothel. 

[Bernie Mac]

On 1/7/2020 at 4:58 AM, frenin said:

From Tywin,

Oh awesome, if you get that from Tywin you should be able to quote him on it.

Quote

 

who never mentions Cersei, Cersei was being saved for Rhaegar or Viserys,

One is dead the other missing. I'm not sure your point here. Neither were an option for the point I was making. When I said the new King I thought that was pretty obvious to be about Robert.

Quote

 

he was getting any as long as Aerys lived and she happened to be available at the moment of the Robellion,

Sorry, how does this counter anything I have actually said. Are you responding to the right person?

Quote

 

don't really doubt he aimed for a royal match if it got in handy, i doubt he aimed for Robert  from the beginning since it was quite clear that Robert was marrying Lyanna no matter what.

After news of her being raped I kind of doubt that. Middle ages it is not really common for Kings/Lords to marry women who have been raped. So claiming Robert was going to marry her 'no matter what' is a huge stretch.

Quote

 

Jon Arryn started to talking him into marrying Cersei after Lyanna died.

We don't know that, nor do we know when Jon Arryn and Tywin started talking about it.

More importantly, that has nothing at all to do with what is being said.

You claimed Tywin had no motivation to marry his daughter to Robert, that is what I disagreed with. You have provided zero evidence to back up a claim that is pretty ridiculous considering Tywin's ambitions.

As soon as Tywin realized that the Targs were over and Robert would be the new King some part of him would have been thinking how he can prosper from this. The guy who had been saving his daughter from the last Princes is probably going to see the new King as an option pretty quickly.

[Frey family reunion]

On 1/3/2020 at 2:58 PM, frenin said:

Lyanna may be all the damaged goods you want, she would've been Robert's Queen.

I’m a bit torn on this one.  I think it may depend on just how damaged goods Lyanna turned out to be.  If Robert was just of the belief that Lyanna was kidnapped and raped, than yes, he probably would still have married Lyanna.

If Robert was of the belief that Lyanna was kidnapped, raped, and then bore Rhaegar a child... I’m not so sure that Lyanna would have been Robert’s queen.

If Lyanna’s kidnapping had resulted in her being unable to bear a child (or at least another child) than I don’t think Robert would have married Lyanna, or at least if he did he would have probably had to have abdicated his throne.  

And while Robert talks a good game about his love for Lyanna, I do think it’s an open question as to just how superficial this love may have been.

[frenin]

17 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Oh aweseome, if you get that from Tywin you should be able to quote him on it.

[...] Lord Tywin stared at him as if he had lost his wits. “You deserve that motley, then. We had come late to Robert’s cause. It was necessary to demonstrate our loyalty. When I laid those bodies before the throne, no man could doubt that we had forsaken House Targaryen forever. And Robert’s relief was palpable. As stupid as he was, even he knew that Rhaegar’s children had to die if his throne was ever to be secure. Yet he saw himself as a hero, and heroes do not kill children.” His father shrugged. “I grant you, it was done too brutally. Elia need not have been harmed at all, that was sheer folly. By herself she was nothing.” “Then why did the Mountain kill her?” “Because I did not tell him to spare her. I doubt I mentioned her at all. I had more pressing concerns. Ned Stark’s van was rushing south from the Trident, and I feared it might come to swords between us. And it was in Aerys to murder Jaime, with no more cause than spite. That was the thing I feared most. That, and what Jaime himself might do.” He closed a fist. 

 

Tywin gives his reasons for the Sack and his concerns, Cersei was not among any of them, so unless we're give new info that either contradicts this or adds new juice, we can't say that Tywin sacked KL with the intention of getting Robert's hand.

 

 

 

23 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

One is dead the other missing. I'm not sure your point here. Neither were an option for the point I was making. When I said the new King I thought that was pretty obvious to be about Robert.

You asked, "Who do you think he was saving Cersei at that point"?? The answer is Rhaegar and Viserys, because as far we know hhe didn't save Cersei for Robert, after the war Robert and Cersei happened to be single and unattached because the person they were expecting to marry were either dead or missing.

 

 

27 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Sorry, how does this counter anything I have actuall said. Are you responding to the right person?

Cersei was not being saved for Robert, she was being saved for a Targ and happened to be without compromise at the moment Robert took the Throne, saying that Cersei was being saved for Robert makes the same sense as saying that both Joffy and Tommen were being saved for Margaery.

 

30 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

After news of her being raped I kind of doubt that. Middle ages it is not really common for Kings/Lords to marry women who have been raped. So claiming Robert was going to marry her 'no matter what' is a huge stretch.

It's not a huge stretch, it's absolutely Robert's call and as long as he don't mind (at the moment at least) Lyanna being soiled, he'd just marry her because that was his intention from the get go.

 

 

32 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

We don't know that, nor do we know when Jon Arryn and Tywin started talking about it.

We do know it. 

 

And Cersei . . . I have Jon Arryn to thank for her. I had no wish to marry after Lyanna was taken from me, but Jon said the realm needed an heir. Cersei Lannister would be a good match, he told me, she would bind Lord Tywin to me should Viserys Targaryen ever try to win back his father’s throne. I loved that old man, I swear it, but now I think he was a bigger fool than Moon Boy. Oh, Cersei is lovely to look at, truly, but cold ... the way she guards her cunt, you’d think she had all the gold of Casterly Rock between her legs.

 

Whether Tywin and old Jon started discussing the match as soon as Tywin proved rebel we cannot say at this point, but the matter was only approach to Robert after Lyanna was gone for good.

 

 

9 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I’m a bit torn on this one.  I think it may depend on just how damaged goods Lyanna turned out to be.  If Robert was just of the belief that Lyanna was kidnapped and raped, than yes, he probably would still have married Lyanna.

If Robert was of the belief that Lyanna was kidnapped, raped, and then bore Rhaegar a child... I’m not so sure that Lyanna would have been Robert’s queen.

If Lyanna’s kidnapping had resulted in her being unable to bear a child (or at least another child) than I don’t think Robert would have married Lyanna, or at least if he did he would have probably had to have abdicated his throne.  

And while Robert talks a good game about his love for Lyanna, I do think it’s an open question as to just how superficial this love may have been.

Well it ofc Robert's decision whether he can bear it or not, nor do i think that he'd ever found that Lyanna had a child, but he believed though all the war that she was being raped and that didn't change his desire to marry her, don't really know why Lyanna would be unable to bear a child or how would they notice right away but.

And this is not about whether he loved her or not, i don't care much or any about this, but whether he believed he loved her enough to go through the marriage... And we know the answer to that question.