Red Wedding: Robb's fate

[Eternally_Theirs]

Just now, sweetsunray said:

King and the mother of a king and his men and women, his whole army - their guests.

Yes, but none of those other than Robb were the main targets. Only casualties. Who died because they tried to protect him.

[sweetsunray]

Just now, DR Supporter said:

Yes, but none of those other than Robb were the main targets. Only casualties. Who died because they tried to protect him.

They were all targets, one way or another. They slaughtered everyone, except those the few they managed to unarm and capture as hostage. The thousands of soldiers slaughtered outside of the Twins didn't die protecting Robb. They died because they were there.

[Eternally_Theirs]

3 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

They were all targets, one way or another. They slaughtered everyone, except those the few they managed to unarm and capture as hostage. The thousands of soldiers slaughtered outside of the Twins didn't die protecting Robb. They died because they were there.

Robb was still the main target.

[sweetsunray]

16 minutes ago, DR Supporter said:

Robb was still the main target.

They were all targets, because Roose didn't want any soldiers loyal to Robb to survive.

Regardless, what the hell is your point? That people in-world or readers should regard Freys as "kingslayers" but belittle their other crimes? Is this a thread started to bemoan the death of Robb? What?

Here's my opinion: Robb's death gutted me. Cat's death gutted me. The soldier that Sandor and Arya have to mercy kill gutted me. Nothwithstanding a few minor exceptions (Olivar and Roslyn), a good Frey is a dead Frey.

[Eternally_Theirs]

1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

They were all targets, because Roose didn't want any soldiers loyal to Robb to survive.

Regardless, what the hell is your point? That people in-world or readers should regard Freys as "kingslayers" but belittle their other crimes? Is this a thread started to bemoan the death of Robb? What?

Here's my opinion: Robb's death gutted me. Cat's death gutted me. The soldier that Sandor and Arya have to mercy kill gutted me. Nothwithstanding a few minor exceptions (Olivar and Roslyn), a good Frey is a dead Frey.

My point is that they killed someone who didn't deserve to die. View that as you will.

[sweetsunray]

Just now, DR Supporter said:

My point is that they killed someone who didn't deserve to die. View that as you will.

Then you should alter your OP to reflect that as the point of discussion.

[Eternally_Theirs]

I did. You just hyper-focused on 'kingslayer' part and ignored everything else I wrote.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

15 minutes ago, DR Supporter said:

So, the peripheral perpetrators got punished, but the actual murderer got rewarded? Yeah, it really helps heal the grief most of us feel about the murder of a 20-year-old sweetie.

Don't call me sweetie. It's patronizing. And Robb wasn't 20 when he was murdered. He was 16.

And I don't even get your point. You're talking to someone who had to take a month long break following the RW chapters. 

And if you think that Roose was rewarded, he wasn't. I was only making a comparison between what Walder Frey might have coveted, ie being named Lord Paramount of the Trident vs what he received. Tywin didn't even care to make him the Lord Paramount, but he did name Roose the Warden of the North, which in the roundabout is as poisoned a gift as Riverrun.

Roose is the Warden of the North. Sure. Great. The northmen are either marching against him or plotting to bring his demise. Either way, they want him dead. So he has won absolutely nothing and will likely lose everything.

Tywin's death changed everything. That unholy alliance of Bolton, Frey, Lannister is done. 

I don't think there will be any Boltons left by the end of the story. Roose is going to die, Ramsay is going to be put down like the monster that he is. Fat Walda will either miscarry or give birth to a child Ramsay will murder. It's not like it will be the first sibling he'll have done away with anyway. 

[sweetsunray]

8 minutes ago, DR Supporter said:

I did. You just hyper-focused on 'kingslayer' part and ignored everything else I wrote.

Because 4/5th of your OP is about a claim that "no one batted an eye" at Freys murdering Robb (and everybody else) and how hypocrite it is while Jaime is called "kingslayer" all of his life for killing the Mad King; how they were rewarded for it.

You don't even mention the word or phrase that "Robb didn't deserve that".

Clearly your statement that "no one batted an eye" is wrong given the fact that smallfolk and washerwomen help the BwB capture Freys to be hanged for what they did, and Manderly has two of them turned into pie.

Now you backtrack this to a thread purpose of wanting people to chime in on how Robb didn't deserve it. Ok, no, Robb didn't deserve it.

I wish I hadn't posted in this confusing thread. I've grieved him. But I'm not a massochist either, wanting to revel in it either.

[Eternally_Theirs]

7 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Don't call me sweetie. It's patronizing. And Robb wasn't 20 when he was murdered. He was 16.

And I don't even get your point. You're talking to someone who had to take a month long break following the RW chapters. 

And if you think that Roose was rewarded, he wasn't. I was only making a comparison between what Walder Frey might have coveted, ie being named Lord Paramount of the Trident vs what he received. Tywin didn't even care to make him the Lord Paramount, but he did name Roose the Warden of the North, which in the roundabout is as poisoned a gift as Riverrun.

Roose is the Warden of the North. Sure. Great. The northmen are either marching against him or plotting to bring his demise. Either way, they want him dead. So he has won absolutely nothing and will likely lose everything.

Tywin's death changed everything. That unholy alliance of Bolton, Frey, Lannister is done. 

I don't think there will be any Boltons left by the end of the story. Roose is going to die, Ramsay is going to be put down like the monster that he is. Fat Walda will either miscarry or give birth to a child Ramsay will murder. It's not like it will be the first sibling he'll have done away with anyway. 

I am not calling you 'sweetie'. I am calling Robb that. Also, the fact he was 16 rather than 20 when he died only makes RW even more monstrous.

 

[Eternally_Theirs]

3 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Because 4/5th of your OP is about a claim that "no one batted an eye" at Freys murdering Robb (and everybody else) and how hypocrite it is while Jaime is called "kingslayer" all of his life for killing the Mad King; how they were rewarded for it.

You don't even mention the word or phrase that "Robb didn't deserve that".

Clearly your statement that "no one batted an eye" is wrong given the fact that smallfolk and washerwomen help the BwB capture Freys to be hanged for what they did, and Manderly has two of them turned into pie.

Now you backtrack this to a thread purpose of wanting people to chime in on how Robb didn't deserve it. Ok, no, Robb didn't deserve it.

I wish I hadn't posted in this confusing thread. I've grieved him. But I'm not a massochist either, wanting to revel in it either.

Also, I've changed the OP.

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, DR Supporter said:

Jon said that about Stannis, not about Robb.

He said that about the both of them. 'Another' pretender is what Jon said, he called them both that.

1 hour ago, DR Supporter said:

 

And between the two, Robb is more honorable. Also, vengeance implies that you are revenging upon someone who did something wrong.

Yes. Robb did do something wrong. This is not really a debate, both Robb and Cat acknowledge this.

"I know the Freys, Mother. I know how much I wronged them, and how much I need them. I shall be as sweet as a septon."

As does the author; "but his desertion would likely have taken a less savage form. The Red Wedding was motivated by his desire to wash out the dishonor that was done him..."

1 hour ago, DR Supporter said:

 

Whereas Walder rained vengeance against him because he dared to fall in love/did the honorable thing.

No, he did so because he broke a promise. Walder went to war, Freys died for Robb's broken agreement.

 

[Eternally_Theirs]

I've changed the OP, so I'd prefer if you responded to changed OP from now on.

[Eternally_Theirs]

 

 

 

 

10 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

He said that about the both of them. 'Another' pretender is what Jon said, he called them both that.

Yes. Robb did do something wrong. This is not really a debate, both Robb and Cat acknowledge this.

"I know the Freys, Mother. I know how much I wronged them, and how much I need them. I shall be as sweet as a septon."

As does the author; "but his desertion would likely have taken a less savage form. The Red Wedding was motivated by his desire to wash out the dishonor that was done him..."

No, he did so because he broke a promise. Walder went to war, Freys died for Robb's broken agreement.

 

So why kill him? He was clearly willing to make amends on his own free will, and yet they killed him anyway. But I guess it's better than making him watch while they slaughtered his men and then left him alive, knowing that he'll be tormented by guilt for as long as he lived.

[kissdbyfire]

nvm

[Eternally_Theirs]

I asked you to please respond to the edited OP and you're still responding to the original one. Please respond to the edited one, thank you.

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, DR Supporter said:

So why kill him?

Because Walder was incredibly angry over the broken promise, a promise that he fulfilled and lost hundreds of men in the process for, including his heir.

1 hour ago, DR Supporter said:

 

He was clearly willing to make amends on his own free will,

No, not on his own free will. Robb was desperate for Frey support.

Walder did not think Robb could make amends for what he had done.

1 hour ago, DR Supporter said:

 

and yet they killed him anyway.

Yes, but for different reasons. Roose certainly was primarily ambition (may be a few other factors) but Walder's main motive, according to the author, was vengeance.

 

[The Fattest Leech]

I hope this isn't another #freyfamilyvalues thread in disguise?

Walder Frey, as written by GRRM since GRRM introduced him as a 'snot nosed" kid with an obnoxious behavior, had been planning some sort of betrayal for a long time. Martin has developed the "character" for Walder Frey a long time ago. As we can see in this GRRM note about Walder IN WALDER"S OWN PERSPECTIVE, meaning not actual "fact", he and Roose were up to no good for a while. No, Robb did not deserve to die for his actions. That is absolutely absurd to think so. And NO, getting revenge on someone is far from the best course of action- a pretty large theme and "message" Martin is writing hard to get across (ahem, Lady Stoneheart).

Q: We know that Roose Bolton had already taken Walda Frey to wife before Robb married Jeyne Westerling. Does this then mean that Walder Frey had already planned to ally himself with Bolton to murder Robb before Robb's marriage betrayal, or was his anger towards Robb and his reasoning towards his own family as to why Robb had to be killed more than just a pretext, and the genuine reason for the Red Wedding?

GRRM: "What if" questions are impossible to answer with any certainty... knowing old Lord Walder's character, it is likely he would have searched for some way to disentangle himself from a losing cause sooner or later, but his desertion would likely have taken a less savage form. The Red Wedding was motivated by his desire to wash out the dishonor that was done him...

As for Bolton, if you reread all his sections carefully, I think you will see a picture of a man keeping all his options open as long as he could... sniffing the wind, covering his tracks, ready to jump either way... even as late as his supper with Jaime at Harrenhal...

Thanks for all the kind words. I'm glad you enjoyed the book.

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1116

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

4 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Don't call me sweetie. It's patronizing. And Robb wasn't 20 when he was murdered. He was 16.

So, I didn't realize the poster was calling you sweetie & just spent the last 20 minutes searching through the book trying to figure out what 20 year old named "sweetie" was killed... 

 

Just read a little further & realized they were calling Robb sweetie. Now I'm really confused. 

[Bernie Mac]

2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I hope this isn't another #freyfamilyvalues thread in disguise?

Walder Frey, as written by GRRM since GRRM introduced him as a 'snot nosed" kid with an obnoxious behavior, had been planning some sort of betrayal for a long time. Martin has developed the "character" for Walder Frey a long time ago. As we can see in this GRRM note about Walder IN WALDER"S OWN PERSPECTIVE, meaning not actual "fact", he and Roose were up to no good for a while. No, Robb did not deserve to die for his actions. That is absolutely absurd to think so. And NO, getting revenge on someone is far from the best course of action- a pretty large theme and "message" Martin is writing hard to get across (ahem, Lady Stoneheart).

 

Can you clarify what you mean by that?

I don't think anything from that statement you quoted indicates that. It could be simply a difference of opinion on what constitutes 'a while'.