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Daenerys & Mirri Maaz Duur

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On 2/9/2020 at 12:14 PM, frenin said:

Before the poisoning Dany has no justification to claim vengeance over people he neither knows nor she truly cares about but Rhaegar and her father,  the rest  only are in her memory as a testimony of the Usurper's and his dogs evilness. After the poisoning she has every right to go to war but truth be told, the poisoning only gives case to her previous entitlement.

Daenerys had better reasons to want to take back Westeros compared to Robb and Starks wanting to take the north back from the Ironborn.  The Starks rebelled and were dumb enough to send a hostage to negotiate on their behalf.  Whereas King Aerys had the right to execute Brandon and Rickard Stark.  Barging into someone's house fully armed and making threats will get a person killed even today.  Rickard should have begged forgiveness for his son instead of demanding a trial by combat.

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4 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Daenerys had better reasons to want to take back Westeros compared to Robb and Starks wanting to take the north back from the Ironborn.  The Starks rebelled and were dumb enough to send a hostage to negotiate on their behalf.  Whereas King Aerys had the right to execute Brandon and Rickard Stark.  Barging into someone's house fully armed and making threats will get a person killed even today.  Rickard should have begged forgiveness for his son instead of demanding a trial by combat.

They have the same reasons to want it back, entitlement, at least the Starks still have momemtum at their side. But yet again, after the War of the 5 Kings fiasco, anyone has momemtum.

So... Rickard deserved execution for… what exactly?? Happen to be the father right??:rofl:

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17 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Daenerys had better reasons to want to take back Westeros compared to Robb and Starks wanting to take the north back from the Ironborn.  The Starks rebelled and were dumb enough to send a hostage to negotiate on their behalf.  Whereas King Aerys had the right to execute Brandon and Rickard Stark.  Barging into someone's house fully armed and making threats will get a person killed even today.  Rickard should have begged forgiveness for his son instead of demanding a trial by combat.

Her reasons are more justified than the Starks, in my opinion.  Especially if the Starks were plotting with the Baratheons to overthrow the Targaryens.  Aerys had a right to deal with the Starks and the Baratheons in any manner he wished if they were conspiring against him.  

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The motivation to return Westeros under Targaryen rule has more support than the return of the Starks to Winterfell.  It's been close to two decades and there are still people plotting to put House Targaryen back on the throne.  That is staying power.  Even people who have no personal reason to want to do it.  The Sealord and Illyrio.  The only ones who want to put the Starks back in power are those who are motivated by revenge, like Manderly.  

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Leaving aside the question of Dany v Mirri, lets think about what took place, when Mirri was burned and Dany walked into the pyre.

1. My impression is that Dany is not entirely in control of events, here.  She is no magician, but she is working a very powerful form of black magic

2. She was meant to hatch dragons, in the same way that Bilbo was meant to find the One Ring.

3. But, what entity is at work here?  A benevolent deity or a malevolent demon?

4. Or is human sacrifice morally neutral in this world?

5. What took place in the pyre?  Who or what did Dany encounter?  

6.  Did Dany give the entity that hatched dragons a claim on her soul?

7.  Is Dany damned as a result?

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2 hours ago, SeanF said:

Leaving aside the question of Dany v Mirri, lets think about what took place, when Mirri was burned and Dany walked into the pyre.

1. My impression is that Dany is not entirely in control of events, here.  She is no magician, but she is working a very powerful form of black magic

2. She was meant to hatch dragons, in the same way that Bilbo was meant to find the One Ring.

3. But, what entity is at work here?  A benevolent deity or a malevolent demon?

4. Or is human sacrifice morally neutral in this world?

5. What took place in the pyre?  Who or what did Dany encounter?  

6.  Did Dany give the entity that hatched dragons a claim on her soul?

7.  Is Dany damned as a result?

1. That is my impression as well, she seemed to be acting on instinct more than anything else.

2. Agreed but I think this begs a couple questions: was she meant to hatch dragons or were dragons just meant to hatch & it happened to be her to have the eggs? Also why were the dragons meant to hatch? Presumably to combat the long night?

3. Yeah, good question. Like much else in these novels the answer is probably somewhere in between. Getting the true purposes of the Others may give us some insight to this. If the Others are truly meant to doom all of man kind & the dragons meant to combat them then the entity that allowed  the dragons to be hatched would be good, at least as far as mankind is concerned. 

4. Idk, I can't see how human sacrifice just for the sake of sacrifice would be morally neutral but in Dany's case, other than MMD she didn't sacrifice just to sacrifice, if that makes sense? 

5. Again, good question. Other than the human sacrifices giving life to the dragons it's anyone's guess I think. 

6. Very interesting. I've seen claims that the lives of Rhaego, Drogo, & MMD paid for the dragons & in fact this is what Dany herself says at one point IIRC. I've also seen it claimed Viserys gave life to a dragon in Rhaego's place but neither of those make much sense to me as neither of them were in the fire. Dany was in the fire - does anyone know off the top of their head if the last egg cracked before she was fully in the fire? Maybe it was her own soul that gave the life to a dragon. 

I don't know how that would work though because the other people had to actually die to give life, Dany is said to have reborn so that indicates a death of sorts but I don't know if it would suffice. 

7. Maybe

 

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8 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

1. That is my impression as well, she seemed to be acting on instinct more than anything else.

2. Agreed but I think this begs a couple questions: was she meant to hatch dragons or were dragons just meant to hatch & it happened to be her to have the eggs? Also why were the dragons meant to hatch? Presumably to combat the long night?

3. Yeah, good question. Like much else in these novels the answer is probably somewhere in between. Getting the true purposes of the Others may give us some insight to this. If the Others are truly meant to doom all of man kind & the dragons meant to combat them then the entity that allowed  the dragons to be hatched would be good, at least as far as mankind is concerned. 

4. Idk, I can't see how human sacrifice just for the sake of sacrifice would be morally neutral but in Dany's case, other than MMD she didn't sacrifice just to sacrifice, if that makes sense? 

5. Again, good question. Other than the human sacrifices giving life to the dragons it's anyone's guess I think. 

6. Very interesting. I've seen claims that the lives of Rhaego, Drogo, & MMD paid for the dragons & in fact this is what Dany herself says at one point IIRC. I've also seen it claimed Viserys gave life to a dragon in Rhaego's place but neither of those make much sense to me as neither of them were in the fire. Dany was in the fire - does anyone know off the top of their head if the last egg cracked before she was fully in the fire? Maybe it was her own soul that gave the life to a dragon. 

I don't know how that would work though because the other people had to actually die to give life, Dany is said to have reborn so that indicates a death of sorts but I don't know if it would suffice. 

7. Maybe

 

None of which makes Dany unsympathetic.

But then, most of us sympathise with Dr. Faustus, too.  

I'm sure most of us sympathise with Catelyn Stark, who sadly did not die in  a state of grace, and is now trapped in a special hell.

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4 hours ago, SeanF said:

What took place in the pyre?

My understanding is that Dragons are made up of at least 4 symbolic pieces. 
Similar to a Sphinx. 

The 3 Heads...

Quote

. . . three heads has the dragon . . . 

Quote

"There are ghosts everywhere," Ser Jorah said softly. "We carry them with us wherever we go."
Yes, she thought. Viserys, Khal Drogo, my son Rhaego, they are with me always.

and the Tail. 

Quote

Dany looked and saw it, low in the east. The first star was a comet, burning red. Bloodred; fire red; the dragon's tail. She could not have asked for a stronger sign.

Dany took the torch from Aggo's hand and thrust it between the logs.

Quote

Mirri Maz Duur shrieked in the flames, a dragon bursting from her brow.

Which I think together suggests that Drogo/Viserys/Rhaego provided the initial spark of life to the stone and MMD provided the final spark for them to fully hatch. 

4 hours ago, SeanF said:

But, what entity is at work here?  A benevolent deity or a malevolent demon?

There also seems to be a possibility that she was just repeating past events, without some kind of entity forcing her hand. Considering the circular and repeating nature of the world. 

Edited by Narsil4

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On 2/11/2020 at 10:45 PM, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Daenerys had better reasons to want to take back Westeros compared to Robb and Starks wanting to take the north back from the Ironborn.  The Starks rebelled and were dumb enough to send a hostage to negotiate on their behalf.  Whereas King Aerys had the right to execute Brandon and Rickard Stark.  Barging into someone's house fully armed and making threats will get a person killed even today.  Rickard should have begged forgiveness for his son instead of demanding a trial by combat.

Brandon was guilty and witnessed by many.  There was no need for a trial.  Rickard should have asked for forgiveness but he most likely did not.  

4 hours ago, SeanF said:

Leaving aside the question of Dany v Mirri, lets think about what took place, when Mirri was burned and Dany walked into the pyre.

1. My impression is that Dany is not entirely in control of events, here.  She is no magician, but she is working a very powerful form of black magic

2. She was meant to hatch dragons, in the same way that Bilbo was meant to find the One Ring.

3. But, what entity is at work here?  A benevolent deity or a malevolent demon?

4. Or is human sacrifice morally neutral in this world?

5. What took place in the pyre?  Who or what did Dany encounter?  

6.  Did Dany give the entity that hatched dragons a claim on her soul?

7.  Is Dany damned as a result?

Magic is not science.  How much control have we seen from Mellissandre?  Not much.  Bloodraven can only do so much.  Dany has the ability but neither the training nor the knowledge in the use of magic.  The author himself already admitted, she is special.  

She will hatch dragons, per the prophecy of AA waking dragons from stone, but certain conditions must be met.  If the rebellion had not taken place, for example.  How different life might have been for Princess Daenerys Targaryen.  Magic is neither good nor bad.  It is a power that can be used for the good (Dany) or bad (Faceless Men).  Three people with King's Blood had to die in order for three eggs to hatch.  Two kings dead meant one egg would not hatch.  So the numbers just aligned. Rhaego, Viserys, and Drogo died.  You can stretch the timeline backwards and say Aerys, Viserys, and Drogo paid for the dragons.  

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1 hour ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Brandon was guilty and witnessed by many.  There was no need for a trial.  Rickard should have asked for forgiveness but he most likely did no

Guilty of what & witnessed by who?

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3 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Magic is not science.

GRRM's magical system still seems to have structure and rules, even if not made clear to the reader. 

3 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

How much control have we seen from Mellissandre?  Not much.

Mel makes mistakes, but her control seems pretty spot on. Considering her shadow assassins, glamours and perhaps being able to burn skinchangers out of the sky.  

3 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Magic is neither good nor bad.

Since it seems to be dealing with blood magic, manipulation of souls and perhaps the 3 treasons. The whole process might be considered a blasphemy against the divine. 
If such a thing exists in GRRM's world. 

3 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

You can stretch the timeline backwards and say Aerys, Viserys, and Drogo paid for the dragons.

I suspect this is when the process started for Rhaego.
So I would be surprised if Aerys was directly involved in that way. 

Quote

Irri fetched the egg with the deep green shell, bronze flecks shining amid its scales as she turned it in her small hands. Dany curled up on her side, pulling the sandsilk cloak across her and cradling the egg in the hollow between her swollen belly and small, tender breasts. She liked to hold them. They were so beautiful, and sometimes just being close to them made her feel stronger, braver, as if somehow she were drawing strength from the stone dragons locked inside.

She was lying there, holding the egg, when she felt the child move within her … as if he were reaching out, brother to brother, blood to blood. "You are the dragon," Dany whispered to him, "the true dragon. I know it. I know it." And she smiled, and went to sleep dreaming of home.

 

Edited by Narsil4

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On 2/12/2020 at 8:53 PM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

The motivation to return Westeros under Targaryen rule has more support than the return of the Starks to Winterfell.  It's been close to two decades and there are still people plotting to put House Targaryen back on the throne.  That is staying power.  Even people who have no personal reason to want to do it.  The Sealord and Illyrio.  The only ones who want to put the Starks back in power are those who are motivated by revenge, like Manderly.  

I might also mention people like Quhuru, who took the time to visit Daenerys and her dragons in Qarth.  The bar patron in Oldtown who drank a toast to the beautiful young queen and her dragons.  Most people in Westeros would welcome the return of a Targaryen ruler.  

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58 minutes ago, Prince Rhaego's Soul said:

Most people in Westeros would welcome the return of a Targaryen ruler.  

I think that's a gross overstatement.

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9 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I think that's a gross overstatement.

He mentions a Summer Islander and a drunk man and that's all you need to know:rofl:, most people would welcome the Targs.

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9 minutes ago, frenin said:

He mentions a Summer Islander and a drunk man and that's all you need to know:rofl:, most people would welcome the Targs.

Right?! Lol 

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12 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Right?! Lol 

I think they would have a lot of support in Kings Landing and the Crownlands (they have no reason to view the current regime with affection).  Probably in Dorne, and much of the Reach.

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1 hour ago, SeanF said:

I think they would have a lot of support in Kings Landing and the Crownlands (they have no reason to view the current regime with affection).  Probably in Dorne, and much of the Reach.

They certainly may but we don't really know. Im sure they would have some support but we don't hear of much, so the 2 examples the poster gave is not sufficient to say "most" would welcome or support them ya know? 

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On 2/12/2020 at 8:53 PM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

The motivation to return Westeros under Targaryen rule has more support than the return of the Starks to Winterfell.  It's been close to two decades and there are still people plotting to put House Targaryen back on the throne.  That is staying power.  Even people who have no personal reason to want to do it.  The Sealord and Illyrio.  The only ones who want to put the Starks back in power are those who are motivated by revenge, like Manderly.  

:agree:

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10 hours ago, Prince Rhaego's Soul said:

I might also mention people like Quhuru, who took the time to visit Daenerys and her dragons in Qarth.  The bar patron in Oldtown who drank a toast to the beautiful young queen and her dragons.  Most people in Westeros would welcome the return of a Targaryen ruler.  

 

9 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I think that's a gross overstatement.

I don't know about that. It is a good conclusion considering how the Starks and the other bonehead families involved in the war of the five kings have ruined the kingdom.  I too would want a return of the Targaryens.  

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1 minute ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

 

I don't know about that. It is a good conclusion considering how the Starks and the other bonehead families involved in the war of the five kings have ruined the kingdom.  I too would want a return of the Targaryens.  

I would want a change also but we don't have much evidence to say "most" would welcome her. 

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