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Alyn Oakenfist

Is Ygritte a rapist?

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2 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

This is 100% true and needs to be said a lot more often. Luckily the most common type of rape (man rapes woman) is already pretty decently dealt with and the victims are helped. We should however try to expand that are to include all types of rape, cause it's just as horrifying regardless of the gender of the rapist or the rape victim.

:agree: I try to talk about it as often as possible and try to point out toxic aspects in our culture. And I really hope men can become more supportive and understanding of one another and it's not all about competition constantly and of course women need to be supportive as well and stop victim- shaming, but I just think there is a lot of stuff, that women don't get about men and vice versa of course and so I think real improvement can only be made, when men start to support each other more in that regard. Maybe I'm mistaken I dunno. Just noticed how much of a taboo subject it is among men and how harmful it can be.

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10 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Well, I guess it depends from country to country and even from prison to prison. In my country at least it's fairly common and unofficial and I can't say I'm sorry about those rapists.

This is 100% true and needs to be said a lot more often. Luckily the most common type of rape (man rapes woman) is already pretty decently dealt with and the victims are helped. We should however try to expand that are to include all types of rape, cause it's just as horrifying regardless of the gender of the rapist or the rape victim.

The you're really lucky.

In the UK, there are pros and cons.  There's no question that rape is treated seriously, as it should be.  But, there are flaws in the legal process.  Cuts to budgets to the Ministry of Justice mean that there are big delays in prosecuting these crimes, which is unfair to both the complainant and the defendant.  We do jail more rapists and sexual abusers than any other European country - but it's still only a fraction of the people who commit rape and sexual abuse. 

Male/male rape is now recognised as a such, although it's still the subject of much mirth.  As I said, sexual abuse by women is now viewed seriously, but it's a recent development.  Growing up, had I been sexually abused by a woman, I'm not even sure I would have understood it to be sexual abuse.  It's rather like the way Cersei knows that Robert has done something unpleasant to her, but just doesn't understand it to be rape.

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At first I thought this was just going to be another one of those Janos Slynt oppressed hero or Walder Frey was misunderstood threads. But thinking about it, there was an implied threat and power disparity over Jon giving into Ygrette's desires. I'm not so sure as I would go so far as to call it rape, as Jon did seem to willingly give in. This was in his POV after all and he didn't describe feeling violated. But they way she manipulated him into the situation was shady as fuck, even if she wouldn't have turned him in if he failed to comply, which we don't know. 

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Just now, SeanF said:

but it's still only a fraction of the people who commit rape and sexual abuse

Unfortunately this will always be the case as without DNA evidence it's usually a he said/she said case.

3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Growing up, had I been sexually abused by a woman, I'm not even sure I would have understood it to be sexual abuse.  It's rather like the way Cersei knows that Robert has done something unpleasant to her, but just doesn't understand it to be rape.

Something like that leaves scars on men too especially when growing up. We can see the scars this type of behaviors does on Cersei, who has major problems with physical intimacy, as we can clearly see form the whole ,,Myrish swamp" incident.

3 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Janos Slynt oppressed hero or Walder Frey was misunderstood threads

But those poor people really do deserve more justice. A brave commander who refused to sell himself and a good lord who... honestly I can't even think of bullshit excuses for Walder Frey. Jokes aside that part always struck me as very weird and uncomfortable and the writing style of those chapters seems to suggest that as well.

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47 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

True. But these are ignorant times, many don't even realize how wrong they are. They are brought up with different values.

sure, that's why I think it's good to consider culture, situation, context and upbringing. Still I think there are characters, who wouldn't  sexually abuse someone. IMO there are just ppl, against whose instincts it goes to do that. Ned for example doesn't consider visiting brothels a good thing.

52 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Many of these whores would be scared of the consequences of saying no or would have their own pimps making them do these things. In our own age in the Western world there is still enforced slavery in the prostitution racket, this would be far worse in the middle ages. Yet from what we know most of the male nobles partake in this.

Yeah and that's why I don't really like Tyrion, Robert and the BWB as much as I like Ned or Jon.

54 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Is Hildy in a position to say no to Bracken, to Jaime is she was offered? There is likely a lot of rape in their society that the men of their time don't even realize that it is rape. Different mindset.

I agree. And I keep that in mind. Still my opinion of Jaime considerably dropped, while he was sexualizing Hildy and ogling her during her sexual abuse. I consider the culture, still I doubt Ned or Jon would have done that.

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11 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I agree. And I keep that in mind. Still my opinion of Jaime considerably dropped, while he was sexualizing Hildy and ogling her during her sexual abuse.

Hard to say if that was sexual abuse or just plain old prostitution. Or something in between. Her being seemingly willing to do it seems to suggest she was a prostitute after all which makes the scene a lot less uncomfortable then the alternative.

Edited by Alyn Oakenfist

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1 minute ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Hard to say if that was sexual abuse or just plain old prostitution. Or something in between. Her being seemingly willing to do it seems to suggest she was a prostitute after all which makes the scene a lot less uncomfortable then the alternative.

“Are all camp followers so modest?” he wondered. “If a man wants to sell his turnips, he needs to set them out.” “You been looking at my turnips since you came in, ser.” The woman found the blanket and pulled it up high enough to cover herself to the waist, then raised one hand to push her hair back from her eyes. “And they’re not for sale, neither.” Jaime gave a shrug. “My apologies if I mistook you for something you’re not. My little brother has known a hundred whores, I’m sure, but I’ve only ever bedded one.” “She’s a prize of war.” Bracken retrieved his breeches from the floor and shook them out. “She belonged to one of Blackwood’s sworn swords till I split his head in two. Put your hands down, woman. My lord of Lannister wants a proper look at those teats.”

A Dance With Dragons, Jaime 1

She is not a prostitute and she doesn't have a choice, she's a prize of war, when she tries to get Jaime to like her, she is probably just trying to find someone who'll treat her better and also looks better. 

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3 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

“Are all camp followers so modest?” he wondered. “If a man wants to sell his turnips, he needs to set them out.” “You been looking at my turnips since you came in, ser.” The woman found the blanket and pulled it up high enough to cover herself to the waist, then raised one hand to push her hair back from her eyes. “And they’re not for sale, neither.” Jaime gave a shrug. “My apologies if I mistook you for something you’re not. My little brother has known a hundred whores, I’m sure, but I’ve only ever bedded one.” “She’s a prize of war.” Bracken retrieved his breeches from the floor and shook them out. “She belonged to one of Blackwood’s sworn swords till I split his head in two. Put your hands down, woman. My lord of Lannister wants a proper look at those teats.”

A Dance With Dragons, Jaime 1

She is not a prostitute and she doesn't have a choice, she's a prize of war, when she tries to get Jaime to like her, she is probably just trying to find someone who'll treat her better and also looks better. 

Sorry, my mistake. I ,,kinda forgot" the details. So yeah that's awfull, but I think Jaime isn't that bad is this scene. For most of it he thinks she's just a whore so nothing that bad there and anyway he's only looking at her, not doing anything bad to her. In this regard he's way better then Tyrion with Sansa.

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3 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Sorry, my mistake. I ,,kinda forgot" the details. So yeah that's awfull, but I think Jaime isn't that bad is this scene. For most of it he thinks she's just a whore so nothing that bad there and anyway he's only looking at her, not doing anything bad to her. In this regard he's way better then Tyrion with Sansa.

Hildy probably has seen worse and it's obvious she would like to change her owner (Jaime being her new one) if she could. But I gotta disagree, that looking is not so bad, especially right after sexual abuse. He could have for example turned around or waited outside. And he does most of his looking after he knows she isn't a whore and thinks it's hot, that she tries to conceal herself, which is kinda f-ed up.

That's after he knows she is a prize of war and not a whore:

"As Jonos cursed, the woman slipped off the bed to snatch up her scattered clothing, her fingers fluttering nervously between her breasts and cleft as she bent and turned and reached. Her efforts to conceal herself were oddly provocative, far more so than if she’d simply gone about the business naked. “Do you have a name, woman?” he asked her. “My mother named me Hildy, ser.” She pulled a soiled shift down over her head and shook her hair out. Her face was almost as dirty as her feet and she had enough hair between her legs to pass for Bracken’s sister, but there was something appealing about her all the same. That pug nose, her shaggy mane of hair … or the way she did a little curtsy after she had stepped into her skirt."

A Dance With Dragons, Jaime 1

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4 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And he does most of his looking after he knows she isn't a whore and thinks it's hot, that she tries to conceal herself, which is kinda f-ed up.

It is a bit messed up, however being aroused is something he probably doesn't have conscious control over. At least he only looks and gets aroused unlike Tyrion with Sansa were he starts groping a 13 year old girl (yuck).

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6 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

It is a bit messed up, however being aroused is something he probably doesn't have conscious control over. At least he only looks and gets aroused unlike Tyrion with Sansa were he starts groping a 13 year old girl (yuck).

Yeah, but he also keeps on looking at her, while she is doing obviously everything she can to hide herself from him. Don't blame anyone for being aroused though, neither Jaime nor Tyrion. But he could have also thought: poor woman, she obviously doesn't want me to see her naked so I just wait outside or turn away instead of sexualizing her. Victimizing her yet again, after I heard she is a "prize of war". But that's just my opinion, I guess. For sure worse things have happened in those books. Jaime is not a monster, who would brutally force himself on a woman, but then he also probably would never "have to". Since enough women would want to sleep with famous, handsome Jaime Lannister.

Edited by Nagini's Neville

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In modern America, it would likely be a criminal offense, but I think prosecutions for female-on-male rape are quite rare, unless the male is a juvenile.  Even then, they are not all that common.  I would expect that Jon's age at the time (15/16) would be as much or more of a factor in the decision to prosecute as his non-consent.

A good case for rape/sexual assault could potentially be made against Gilly for forcing Sam into sex.  However he is older and the penalty for refusal were less serious in that case.

In neither case would it be considered rape in-world.  Which means, of course,, that in neither case would either Jon or Sam consider themselves to be a victim of rape, although they might well feel that they have been ill-treated.

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10 minutes ago, Nevets said:

A good case for rape/sexual assault could potentially be made against Gilly for forcing Sam into sex.  However he is older and the penalty for refusal were less serious in that case.

But Sam responded right away, didn't he? And Gilly also didn't have any power over him. Otherwise I totally misremember that scene.

Edit:

"… and kissed his mouth. Sam found himself kissing her back. I said the words, he thought, but her hands were tugging at his blacks, pulling at the laces of his breeches. He broke off the kiss long enough to say, “We can’t,” but Gilly said, “We can,” and covered his mouth with her own again. The Cinnamon Wind was spinning all around them and he could taste the rum on Gilly’s tongue and the next thing her breasts were bare and he was touching them. I said the words, Sam thought again, but one of her nipples found its way between his lips. It was pink and hard and when he sucked on it her milk filled his mouth, mingling with the taste of rum, and he had never tasted anything so fine and sweet and good. If I do this I am no better than Dareon, Sam thought, but it felt too good to stop."

Okay, I see what you mean, it was also quite pushy and Sam protested, but he also kept responding and being active himself and Gilly didn't have any power over him. It's more comparable to the Sept scene between Cersei and Jaime IMO

Edited by Nagini's Neville

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13 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Yeah, but he also keeps on looking at her, while she is doing obviously everything she can to hide herself from him.

Not making up any excuses, but given the weird sexual shit this series has, Jaime in lord Bracken's tent is pretty tame. Like in today's word it would only be asshole-ish with shades of immoral, instead of downright illegal like a lot of other stuff (again Tyrion and Sansa).

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Are we looking at it from an outside perspective or from the characters? 

Within the world of ASOIAF no. The idea of a woman raping a man would probably never come up. I can't recall any mention in the books.

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1 minute ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Not making up any excuses, but given the weird sexual shit this series has, Jaime in lord Bracken's tent is pretty tame. Like in today's word it would only be asshole-ish with shades of immoral, instead of downright illegal like a lot of other stuff (again Tyrion and Sansa).

Dunno if you just witnessed a traffic victim being raped and than you ogle her while she tries to cover herself and dress after you know she is a traffic victim and don't immediately help her, that could definitely get you in trouble toady, but I get what you mean.

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4 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

But Sam responded right away, didn't he? And Gilly also didn't have any power over him. Otherwise I totally misremember that scene.

Sam kept hiding from her and otherwise avoiding her.  It was clear that he did not want sex with her.  It may be closer to harassment than assault as the worst penalty was likely humiliation, harassment, and difficulty with the ship's crew, who were aiding and abetting Gilly.

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1 minute ago, Nagini's Neville said:

don't immediately help her, that could definitely get you in trouble toady

Not really actually, but I get your point. The women's situation is so messed up that Jaime should be trying to help her. Again I'm not condoning his actions, I'm just saying that in the context of the story it's fairly tame.

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5 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Sam kept hiding from her and otherwise avoiding her.  It was clear that he did not want sex with her.  It may be closer to harassment than assault as the worst penalty was likely humiliation, harassment, and difficulty with the ship's crew, who were aiding and abetting Gilly.

Yeah, you're right. I totally forgot about that. There really are only one or two non problematic sex scenes. No wonder I dislike them mostly.

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1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

At first I thought this was just going to be another one of those Janos Slynt oppressed hero or Walder Frey was misunderstood threads. But thinking about it, there was an implied threat and power disparity over Jon giving into Ygrette's desires. I'm not so sure as I would go so far as to call it rape, as Jon did seem to willingly give in. This was in his POV after all and he didn't describe feeling violated. But they way she manipulated him into the situation was shady as fuck, even if she wouldn't have turned him in if he failed to comply, which we don't know. 

Yeah I'm a little conflicted on it as well. He doesn't seem to feel violated, which of course doesn't always mean a person wasn't violated. I'll have to reread the passage to be sure but I think it depends on how real Jon thought this threat of death or of Ygritte telling on him was. 

Another thing is that I don't think Ygritte necessarily intended to take him against his will. I think she thought she was seducing him, at least mostly. Not to say it being rape depends on whether or not the perpetrator intends for it to be. 

It's an odd situation in that Ygritte doesn't have the strength to physically force him but she does, in theory, have enough strength to force him by other means. Would she have? I don't know, maybe. Ygritte was a wildling to the bone. She cared for Jon & iirc she was willing to give up, if not her way of life, all her clansmen & everything that comes along with them to run off with Jon. But that was after he reciprocated some of her feelings, willingly or no. 

As I said, I think it depends on whether or not Jon thought the threat was real & I think he did. Again, I'll have to reread it. If he felt as if he had no choice but to have sex with her & that is the reason he agrees to have sex with her then, yeah, it's rape. I do think that may not have been the only reason he agrees though. 

Like another poster said there may be some dubious consent. 

I think it is also worth considering if Ygritte felt forced at all. She clearly had the hots for Jon but is it possible she felt it necessary? Or felt some harm could come to her if she did not have sex with him? I know she vouched for him & claimed to be having sex with him before they actually had sex so that's a possibility. 

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