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Pedro Luiz

Purple Wedding, Finally Solved.

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Indeed. I would think it would, at the least, take some ingenuity to mix it in food. 

It's clearly not a liquid else it wouldn't 'dissolve'. It seems to be some sort of crystals right? Like purple salt crystals is what I always imagine. 

Yup, tiny purple crystals.

“The chain around his throat felt very heavy. He touched one of the crystals lightly with the tip of his little finger. Such a small thing to hold the power of life and death.

Quote

I suppose if this is the hill I wanted to die on I would argue that the crystals could just be dropped into the food & not dissolving would keep it from staining the food but there is no basis for that, so I won't lol

But a crystal, as small as it may be, might be seen or felt as one takes it into one’s mouth... I suppose it would work w/ something like borscht, but I don’t think they have that in Westeros. Beet soup/stew would work well too. 

But yeah, there are better hills to die on. :lol:

It’s fun to speculate and try to figure out some small details though. 

ETA: I’m sure it can be mixed in w/.certain types of food, but I do find it interesting that Cressen thinks specifically about wine, and only wine. :dunno:

Edited by kissdbyfire

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On 3/27/2020 at 3:19 PM, The Green Bard said:

House Tyrell wanting Joffrey dead I can buy (but it would make more sense to me after Margaery had born his heir).  Littlefinger wanting Tyrion dead is almost a no-brainer.  So, from the motivation standpoint, OP's ideas stand up better than yours IMO (though certainly not from a complexity standpoint).  

The main threat Tyrion poses to house Tyrell is that he was used as Tywin's pawn to block them from marrying Wyllas to Sansa.  Now that they are already married, Olenna is smart enough, as you say, to know that it will only lead to her marriage to Lancel, or Davin, or Moonboy for all I know.  Garlan, notably of House Tyrell, seems to genuinely respect Tyrion.  Given that he doesn't seem very oaf-ish, I have a feeling that he shares his grandmothers' counsels.  I am not at all convinced that killing Tyrion is in the Tyrell's best interest. 

Also, you say there was no wind, but that is also not convincing to me, because Sansa certainly didn't object to Olenna using it as an excuse to adjust her hairnet.  I agree that involving a server is not LF's MO, given how hetied up the loose end with Dontos, so I do have to repeat that mental manipulation of Sansa is the least complex option here, although I am certainly not wholly convinced of it. It is the least complex. It implicates Sansa, so she has to flee.  It kills Tyrion, so she no longer has a husband and so that the threat he poses to Littlefinger is alleviated.  It accomplishes all his goals.  The only problem is that the plan didn't work. And it is supported by the text.  

You're not looking at what's really important to Lady Olenna and House Tyrell. This takes a bit of explaining, so bear with me.

When we look at history, we can see that Highgarden has been the hegemon on the continent for thousands of years, first under the Gardeners and then under the Tyrells. Have you ever wondered why virtually all of the conquering and conquesting over the centuries has taken place in the Riverlands and not the Reach? The Reach, after all, has no natural defenses to invasion. No mountains, deserts, harsh winters, even rivers provide some protection. The Reach is nothing but hectare upon hectare of wide open farmland and gently rolling hills. The only defense the Reach has is its people. It is by far the most populated realm, capable of raising double or even triple the army of the other kingdoms/great houses. But it can only do this if there is political stability between the principal banners, namely, Redwyne and Hightower, but also Tarly, Fossoway, Beesbury and the rest. The best way to ensure this stability is through marriage, of course. It's to the point where the Tyrells, Hightowers and Redwynes are one large extended family. Lady Olenna is a Redwyne, Alerie is a Hightower, and so on. It is telling, after all, that the only time Highgarden has fallen was when the Gardener king at the time made a series of unwise marriages, which led to dissension among the banners and the Reach was invaded simultaneously by the westerlands, the stormlands and Dorne.

Highgarden's military dominance was the natural order of things for most of Lady Olenna's life. Casterly Rock, run by kindly old Tytos, was a far weaker presence to the north, and everybody lived under the king's peace anyway. Suddenly, however, Tytos was dead and Tywin is the new Lord of the Rock, and Tywin is most certainly not his father. He has already proven himself to be a ruthless warlord and machiavellian political operator who doesn't just battle his enemies and raise them or their sons up afterward -- he utterly crushes opposing families for all time, slaughtering every last member and raising their castles to the ground. His reputation grew even worse during the rebellion when he feigned allegiance to the king only to sack the capital resulting in countless deaths, rapes, looting and burning. Most recently, he has set the Riverlands on fire "from the Green Fork to the God's Eye" -- everything is destroyed for league upon league, horizon to horizon, every field, farm, village, town and holdfast, with bodies by the 10s of thousands left rotting in the sun..

None of this would be overly concerning to Lady Olenna as long as Highgarden had the army to deal with Tywin's levies. But this is no longer the case. Starting with Cersei's marriage to Robert, Tywin has been on a roll to where his kin not only sit the Iron Throne and control the crownlands, but his heirs also stand to inherit Storm's End, bringing the stormlands under his wing. By the time of the Purple Wedding, he is on the verge of taking the Riverlands, through his sister, and Tyrion's marriage to Sansa brings him the north as well. This gives Tywin control of well more than half the kingdom, allowing him to raise an army that could easily dwarf anything the Tyrells could muster. The thought of the Reach going up in flames, Highgarding destroyed, the entire Tyrell line extinguished for all time -- this is what keeps Lady Olenna up at night, not whether Willas gets Sansa, and certainly not whether Margaery someday maybe gets a black eye or a bloody lip from Joffrey.

Does Tyrion's death unravel all of Tywin's holding in one stroke? No, but it's a start, and it maintains a rough parity between Highgarden and Casterly Rock, buying enough time to bring about the end of Lannister ambitions.

This is the Game of Thrones. Lady Olenna is a master player. Tyrion poses a direct threat to the hegemony that Highgarden has enjoyed for thousands of years. He has to go and the wedding is the only time she can get to him and she can only do it through Littlefinger.

 

Sansa has no more sense to question Lady Olenna when she says her hair needs adjusting than she has to wonder why Lady Olenna has not already heard about all the things Joffrey has done by the time they had their dinner, or later when she blows her cover to Randa, or when she declares herself to be one of the wicked to Queen Cersie, or the numerous other times where Sansa has said and done things after completely misunderstanding what is really happening right in front of her. She is the most naive, trusting character in the book, even when she thinks she is being clever and sly.

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38 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

You're not looking at what's really important to Lady Olenna and House Tyrell. This takes a bit of explaining, so bear with me.

When we look at history, we can see that Highgarden has been the hegemon on the continent for thousands of years, first under the Gardeners and then under the Tyrells. Have you ever wondered why virtually all of the conquering and conquesting over the centuries has taken place in the Riverlands and not the Reach? The Reach, after all, has no natural defenses to invasion. No mountains, deserts, harsh winters, even rivers provide some protection. The Reach is nothing but hectare upon hectare of wide open farmland and gently rolling hills. The only defense the Reach has is its people. It is by far the most populated realm, capable of raising double or even triple the army of the other kingdoms/great houses. But it can only do this if there is political stability between the principal banners, namely, Redwyne and Hightower, but also Tarly, Fossoway, Beesbury and the rest. The best way to ensure this stability is through marriage, of course. It's to the point where the Tyrells, Hightowers and Redwynes are one large extended family. Lady Olenna is a Redwyne, Alerie is a Hightower, and so on. It is telling, after all, that the only time Highgarden has fallen was when the Gardener king at the time made a series of unwise marriages, which led to dissension among the banners and the Reach was invaded simultaneously by the westerlands, the stormlands and Dorne.

Highgarden's military dominance was the natural order of things for most of Lady Olenna's life. Casterly Rock, run by kindly old Tytos, was a far weaker presence to the north, and everybody lived under the king's peace anyway. Suddenly, however, Tytos was dead and Tywin is the new Lord of the Rock, and Tywin is most certainly not his father. He has already proven himself to be a ruthless warlord and machiavellian political operator who doesn't just battle his enemies and raise them or their sons up afterward -- he utterly crushes opposing families for all time, slaughtering every last member and raising their castles to the ground. His reputation grew even worse during the rebellion when he feigned allegiance to the king only to sack the capital resulting in countless deaths, rapes, looting and burning. Most recently, he has set the Riverlands on fire "from the Green Fork to the God's Eye" -- everything is destroyed for league upon league, horizon to horizon, every field, farm, village, town and holdfast, with bodies by the 10s of thousands left rotting in the sun..

None of this would be overly concerning to Lady Olenna as long as Highgarden had the army to deal with Tywin's levies. But this is no longer the case. Starting with Cersei's marriage to Robert, Tywin has been on a roll to where his kin not only sit the Iron Throne and control the crownlands, but his heirs also stand to inherit Storm's End, bringing the stormlands under his wing. By the time of the Purple Wedding, he is on the verge of taking the Riverlands, through his sister, and Tyrion's marriage to Sansa brings him the north as well. This gives Tywin control of well more than half the kingdom, allowing him to raise an army that could easily dwarf anything the Tyrells could muster. The thought of the Reach going up in flames, Highgarding destroyed, the entire Tyrell line extinguished for all time -- this is what keeps Lady Olenna up at night, not whether Willas gets Sansa, and certainly not whether Margaery someday maybe gets a black eye or a bloody lip from Joffrey.

Does Tyrion's death unravel all of Tywin's holding in one stroke? No, but it's a start, and it maintains a rough parity between Highgarden and Casterly Rock, buying enough time to bring about the end of Lannister ambitions.

This is the Game of Thrones. Lady Olenna is a master player. Tyrion poses a direct threat to the hegemony that Highgarden has enjoyed for thousands of years. He has to go and the wedding is the only time she can get to him and she can only do it through Littlefinger.

 

Sansa has no more sense to question Lady Olenna when she says her hair needs adjusting than she has to wonder why Lady Olenna has not already heard about all the things Joffrey has done by the time they had their dinner, or later when she blows her cover to Randa, or when she declares herself to be one of the wicked to Queen Cersie, or the numerous other times where Sansa has said and done things after completely misunderstanding what is really happening right in front of her. She is the most naive, trusting character in the book, even when she thinks she is being clever and sly.

I agree there is motive. But that means the pie is poisoned not the wine right? How does the strangler get dissolved in the pie? & How does it not dye the pie purple? 

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3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I'll have to reread again & get back with ya. Just for clarity though, I'm not talking about the entire pie being poisoned, just Tyrion's slice. So yeah, after his slice was cut & the lemoncream poured over it. Does Joff eat it right then? Otherwise it wouldn't have to be the server. It could've been dropped in the pie at any point after the server puts it on the table for Tyrion & before Joff eats it. 

A serving man placed a slice of hot pigeon pie in front of Tyrion and covered it with a spoon of lemon cream. The pigeons were well and truly cooked in this pie, but he found them no more appetizing than the white ones fluttering about the hall. Sansa was not eating either. "You're deathly pale, my lady," Tyrion said. "You need a breath of cool air, and I need a fresh doublet." He stood and offered her his hand. "Come."

But before they could make their retreat, Joffrey was back. "Uncle, where are you going? You're my cupbearer, remember?"

 

That is all there is to the pie. We can rule out the poison being in the cream, as it's most likely not the right colour and apparently served from a larger bowl. We do not see the pie cut and the poison would have had to be placed in right afterwards, before the cream. Not afterwards, because Tyrion is going to leave, so it would make no sense to poison food he was apparently not going to eat.

BTW, even if we disregard the part from Cressen that the strangler is to be dissolved in wine, how would poisoning the pie work? You can only place the crystal at a particular spot. What if the target doesn't eat the whole piece? What if the strangler causes colouring that the target might notice?

- And, why the hell bother poisoning Tyrion's pie when the strangler could easily be added to his wine? Red wine conceals the colouring and all it takes is a gulp, and Tyrion is not exactly known for abstinence. Really, why a pie?

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On 3/27/2020 at 3:05 PM, Hugorfonics said:

It began when Tyrion sent Petyr over to win Margerys hand, the price for Tyrells allegiance was apparently Tyrions head

This is totally extrapolated.  Zero evidence for it.  

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Posted (edited)
45 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

A serving man placed a slice of hot pigeon pie in front of Tyrion and covered it with a spoon of lemon cream. The pigeons were well and truly cooked in this pie, but he found them no more appetizing than the white ones fluttering about the hall. Sansa was not eating either. "You're deathly pale, my lady," Tyrion said. "You need a breath of cool air, and I need a fresh doublet." He stood and offered her his hand. "Come."

But before they could make their retreat, Joffrey was back. "Uncle, where are you going? You're my cupbearer, remember?"

 

That is all there is to the pie. We can rule out the poison being in the cream, as it's most likely not the right colour and apparently served from a larger bowl. We do not see the pie cut and the poison would have had to be placed in right afterwards, before the cream. Not afterwards, because Tyrion is going to leave, so it would make no sense to poison food he was apparently not going to eat.

BTW, even if we disregard the part from Cressen that the strangler is to be dissolved in wine, how would poisoning the pie work? You can only place the crystal at a particular spot. What if the target doesn't eat the whole piece? What if the strangler causes colouring that the target might notice?

- And, why the hell bother poisoning Tyrion's pie when the strangler could easily be added to his wine? Red wine conceals the colouring and all it takes is a gulp, and Tyrion is not exactly known for abstinence. Really, why a pie?

Right, I'm saying what happens in between right now & when Joff eats the pie? Is there more talking? More wine dumping? Any distractions? 

That's my point is that I think it could be added just as easily to the pie. The wine is coming from a central source as well & we know they didn't poison the whole lot of it, it would've been the individual serving of wine that Joff was drinking. 

ETA: how would the poisoner know Tyrion was going to leave & wasn't going to eat the pie? He couldn't leave actually, until the feast was over. 

Edited by Lyanna<3Rhaegar

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20 minutes ago, The Green Bard said:

This is totally extrapolated.  Zero evidence for it.  

When else? Like at all, could they have conspired? Sansa gets the hairnet in acok and Tyrwll only shows up in asos, it had to be at the meeting Tyrion arranged, nothing else is possible.

Then taking Sansas marriage prospect and the poisoned pie into consideriation, the evidence adds itself up

55 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

That is all there is to the pie. We can rule out the poison being in the cream, as it's most likely not the right colour and apparently served from a larger bowl.

All eyes were on the three dwarfs and their king, none at the random waiters or the color of one piece of dessert.

We're not maesters or warlocks or whatever, what do we know of the different components to the Strangler

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1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

This is the Game of Thrones. Lady Olenna is a master player. Tyrion poses a direct threat to the hegemony that Highgarden has enjoyed for thousands of years. He has to go and the wedding is the only time she can get to him and she can only do it through Littlefinger.

Master players don't leave powerful witnesses against them behind and free.  Neither Littlefinger or Olenna would do this.  

I did read your other comments.  While interesting, they just don't seem relevant.  My other observation is that you fail to mention House Florent, which the Tyrell's certainly failed to make an alliance with.  They secured house Florent's lands with the alliance to house Lannister.  Seems a bit quick to me to bet willy nilly killing Lannisters.  They are positioned well to bide their time, conserve their forces, and wait until the Lannister's enemies move against them (which happened in the Riverlands, something I don't think you'd fail to notice).  This is a strategy they've been great at, like what they did at Robert's rebellion.  Threaten few, form alliances and try not to engage your troops.  

Certainly their motive against Joffrey is established.  If you look at their motive against Tyrion objectively, it is weak at best, contrives at worst.

53 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I agree there is motive. But that means the pie is poisoned not the wine right? How does the strangler get dissolved in the pie? & How does it not dye the pie purple?

I am a chemical engineer.  I see plenty of ways this can be surmounted. 

Option 1: Place the stone in the pie before pouring on the relatively viscous lemon cream.  The lemon cream dissolves the stone but is only locally, below the top layer of cream, leaving no visible discoloration.   

Option 2: The stone is heavier drop the stone onto the lemon cream, it settles to the bottom, barely leaving a hole, which quickly closes due to visco-elastic relaxation.  The lemon cream dissolves the stone but is only locally, below the top layer of cream, leaving no visible discoloration.   

Option 3: it did leave a discoloration, but drunk-ass Joffrey didn't notice it.  Since Tyrion's accusers fixated on the wine, the pie was never examined. 

If the stone is placed near the end of the slice it maximizes the effectiveness.  What you wouldn't want to do is put the stone in the bowl of lemon cream and stir it, as that might leave swirl marks.   

One other thing... if the Tyrell's were involved, they would not be poisoning Joffrey's wine in any case, especially given that Marg was drinking from the same cup.  I don't think they were involved at all though, as you see from my answer above.  

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On 3/27/2020 at 9:59 PM, Pedro Luiz said:

Because Sir Dontos thought that Joff would die. I made it clear at the post.

The bells were ringing when Dontos said this.  

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On 3/27/2020 at 4:01 PM, Hugorfonics said:
On 3/27/2020 at 3:19 PM, The Green Bard said:

. It implicates Sansa, so she has to flee.   

No it doesnt.  If Sansa were to confess that Olenna touched her hairnet, one designed by Ser Dontos, Quyburn would have Thornes singing left and right, as if Butterbumps became her guard.

Perhaps I wasn't clear.  Sansa was implicated.  It is a fact in the book, undeniable. The hair net itself implicates her, regardless of whose hand move the crystal.  Since she is implicated by the plan of having the hair net, She is the best option to be the hand that moves the crystal.  Further, since the plan was to take her to the ship, this plan leaves behind no witnesses.  The removal of her from the scene obviously is the other way she was implicated.  She is under Baelishes power with a bounty on her head.  This is exactly what he wanted in the plot.  This is what I meant to imply with my statement above.

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2 minutes ago, The Green Bard said:

Perhaps I wasn't clear.  Sansa was implicated.  It is a fact in the book, undeniable. The hair net itself implicates her, regardless of whose hand move the crystal.  Since she is implicated by the plan of having the hair net, She is the best option to be the hand that moves the crystal.  Further, since the plan was to take her to the ship, this plan leaves behind no witnesses.  The removal of her from the scene obviously is the other way she was implicated.  She is under Baelishes power with a bounty on her head.  This is exactly what he wanted in the plot.  This is what I meant to imply with my statement above.

So we're talking from a legal perspective, not an a technical one. Cuz technically no doubt, brought the weapon to the murder scene.

Legally, yea, if they found the hairnet but no Sansa, shes suspect number one. That was probably the goal, frame Sansa as Tyrions killer. That ties things up nicely for Petyr or Olenna, whomever manages to snag her first. 

But as things stand Id say shes only implicated as Tyrions, the guilty party, wife (who had mad motive and ran away)

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12 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

All eyes were on the three dwarfs and their king, none at the random waiters or the color of one piece of dessert.

The person who will eat the piece of dessert will notice the colour of what they’re about to put in their mouth. And the strangler’s purple colour will stand out on lemon cream. 

12 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

We're not maesters or warlocks or whatever, what do we know of the different components to the Strangler

We actually do know quite a bit from Cressen. But its components don’t even matter in this discussion, what matters is how noticeable would it be if dropped on the cream. And the answer is, very noticeable. :)

 

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8 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

it had to be at the meeting Tyrion arranged, nothing else is possible.

It doesn't have to have happened at all.  If Littlefinger acted alone, with only Sansa and Dontos as collaborators, he leaves behind no witnesses.  

My opinion is that Sansa was no longer within their reach and thus not of importance to them.  The fact that they iced her out after Tyrion's wedding to her is evidence of this (save for the graciousness of Olenna and Garlan at the purple wedding).  They lost on that front of scheming; they knew at that point that Tywin would block any further designs they might have on her.  Lancel or Devan would doubtless be the next suitors if Tyrion died.  Marrying Wyllas to Sansa had ceased to be a motive.  

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1 minute ago, Hugorfonics said:

So we're talking from a legal perspective

She was implicated because she fled, this would be known by Littlefinger.  You do realize, that there is no actual justice or real "legal perspective" in the seven Kingdoms.  I find it funny that you stated it in this way, lol.  Was that meant to be tongue in cheek?

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5 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

We actually do know quite a bit from Cressen. But its components don’t even matter in this discussion, what matters is how noticeable would it be if dropped on the cream. And the answer is, very noticeable. :)

I'll introduce you to the counterarguments.  

19 minutes ago, The Green Bard said:

I am a chemical engineer.  I see plenty of ways this can be surmounted. 

Option 1: Place the stone in the pie before pouring on the relatively viscous lemon cream.  The lemon cream dissolves the stone but is only locally, below the top layer of cream, leaving no visible discoloration.   

Option 2: The stone is heavier drop the stone onto the lemon cream, it settles to the bottom, barely leaving a hole, which quickly closes due to visco-elastic relaxation.  The lemon cream dissolves the stone but is only locally, below the top layer of cream, leaving no visible discoloration.   

Option 3: it did leave a discoloration, but drunk-ass Joffrey didn't notice it.  Since Tyrion's accusers fixated on the wine, the pie was never examined. 

If the stone is placed near the end of the slice it maximizes the effectiveness.  What you wouldn't want to do is put the stone in the bowl of lemon cream and stir it, as that might leave swirl marks.   

I agree with you idea of it being noticeable in option 3 and by stirring it into the cream; however, I can't see this argument as a strong enough to eliminate the pie as mode of poisoning.  Further, this poison is designed to make it look like the victim choked, to make it seem like a natural death by accident.  Choking on liquid is hardly a good way to disguise murder by means of this poison. 

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4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

The person who will eat the piece of dessert will notice the colour of what they’re about to put in their mouth. And the strangler’s purple colour will stand out on lemon cream. 

Unless theyre drunk or fighting. Penny and her brother were excellent distractions

4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

We actually do know quite a bit from Cressen. But its components don’t even matter in this discussion, what matters is how noticeable would it be if dropped on the cream. And the answer is, very noticeable. :)

Idk, thats speculation. Anyway,

18 minutes ago, The Green Bard said:

  Option 2: The stone is heavier drop the stone onto the lemon cream, it settles to the bottom, barely leaving a hole, which quickly closes due to visco-elastic relaxation.  The lemon cream dissolves the stone but is only locally, below the top layer of cream, leaving no visible discoloration.   

Ill take option 2 for 500. Lol

5 minutes ago, The Green Bard said:

It doesn't have to have happened at all.  If Littlefinger acted alone, with only Sansa and Dontos as collaborators, he leaves behind no witnesses.  

Olenna had to be in on it. Petyr couldnt just make that shit up about Sansas hairnet. 

6 minutes ago, The Green Bard said:

My opinion is that Sansa was no longer within their reach and thus not of importance to them.  The fact that they iced her out after Tyrion's wedding to her is evidence of this (save for the graciousness of Olenna and Garlan at the purple wedding).  They lost on that front of scheming; they knew at that point that Tywin would block any further designs they might have on her.  Lancel or Devan would doubtless be the next suitors if Tyrion died.  Marrying Wyllas to Sansa had ceased to be a motive.  

Word. I'm of the exact opposite opinion. Sansas the second greatest marriage prospect in the 7 kingdoms after Mrs. Hizdahr Loraq. 

9 minutes ago, The Green Bard said:

(save for the graciousness of Olenna and Garlan at the purple wedding).  

Idk, that line sticks with me. Inviting her to Highgarden because she didnt see her husband hours before shit hit the fan.

Shes the pretty girl at the party, everyone wants her

7 minutes ago, The Green Bard said:

She was implicated because she fled, this would be known by Littlefinger.  You do realize, that there is no actual justice or real "legal perspective" in the seven Kingdoms.  I find it funny that you stated it in this way, lol.  Was that meant to be tongue in cheek?

Eh, half and half. Theres a facade of legality in the 7.

But yea, when a murder goes down and someones missing, we got a pretty good idea who was implicated

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31 minutes ago, The Green Bard said:

Master players don't leave powerful witnesses against them behind and free.  Neither Littlefinger or Olenna would do this.  

I did read your other comments.  While interesting, they just don't seem relevant.  My other observation is that you fail to mention House Florent, which the Tyrell's certainly failed to make an alliance with.  They secured house Florent's lands with the alliance to house Lannister.  Seems a bit quick to me to bet willy nilly killing Lannisters.  They are positioned well to bide their time, conserve their forces, and wait until the Lannister's enemies move against them (which happened in the Riverlands, something I don't think you'd fail to notice).  This is a strategy they've been great at, like what they did at Robert's rebellion.  Threaten few, form alliances and try not to engage your troops.  

Certainly their motive against Joffrey is established.  If you look at their motive against Tyrion objectively, it is weak at best, contrives at worst.

I am a chemical engineer.  I see plenty of ways this can be surmounted. 

Option 1: Place the stone in the pie before pouring on the relatively viscous lemon cream.  The lemon cream dissolves the stone but is only locally, below the top layer of cream, leaving no visible discoloration.   

Option 2: The stone is heavier drop the stone onto the lemon cream, it settles to the bottom, barely leaving a hole, which quickly closes due to visco-elastic relaxation.  The lemon cream dissolves the stone but is only locally, below the top layer of cream, leaving no visible discoloration.   

Option 3: it did leave a discoloration, but drunk-ass Joffrey didn't notice it.  Since Tyrion's accusers fixated on the wine, the pie was never examined. 

If the stone is placed near the end of the slice it maximizes the effectiveness.  What you wouldn't want to do is put the stone in the bowl of lemon cream and stir it, as that might leave swirl marks.   

One other thing... if the Tyrell's were involved, they would not be poisoning Joffrey's wine in any case, especially given that Marg was drinking from the same cup.  I don't think they were involved at all though, as you see from my answer above.  

Thanks! It does seem it could've happened. I don't like option 1 because the pie would have to be poisoned prior to the Lemoncream which means the server would have to be in on it. 

The other ones could work tho. 

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Petyr couldnt just make that shit up about Sansas hairnet

Sansa told him who had touched her hairnet.  He did not supply that information. At that point he certainly could riff lies on the subject.  And if she said nobody had touched her hairnet, he could use it as a lesson on being observant in the future.  

As to whether the Tyrell's wanted her, I just think that treating her as a pariah after her wedding is a poor way of showing it.  Although I guess her feelings don't come into it in the game, since she's still treated as a pawn, so maybe they were posturing, making Tywin think he'd won.

8 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Thanks! It does seem it could've happened. I don't like option 1 because the pie would have to be poisoned prior to the Lemoncream which means the server would have to be in on it. 

Agreed.  Adding a server to the mix is not something I subscribe to, though I listed it earlier for the sake of exhausting the options.  That said, the passage does allow a small opportunity for it to be placed on the pie just before the cream.  Both the server and Tyrion would have to be woefully unobservant though, so this still is a bad option.  

Edited by The Green Bard
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16 minutes ago, The Green Bard said:

I'll introduce you to the counterarguments.  

I agree with you idea of it being noticeable in option 3 and by stirring it into the cream; however, I can't see this argument as a strong enough to eliminate the pie as mode of poisoning.  Further, this poison is designed to make it look like the victim choked, to make it seem like a natural death by accident.  Choking on liquid is hardly a good way to disguise murder by means of this poison. 

Option 1 doesn’t really work IMO. Options 2 and 3 could work, but both carry a big risk factor. Again, IMO. 

13 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Unless theyre drunk or fighting. Penny and her brother were excellent distractions

Again, counting on people being too drunk or distracted to notice is a big risk to take. 

13 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Idk, thats speculation. Anyway,

No, it’s not speculation. It’s spelled out, clear as can be: the strangler is a purple crystal. That simple.

It’s interesting to see other people’s ideas about the PW, but I have seen nothing to change my mind or even that would make me think about maybe reconsidering it: Joffrey was the intended victim, the strangler was in the wine. 

:cheers:

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