Unconventional opinions dumpsterfire of a thread

[Nagini's Neville]

Another of my unconventional opinions is, that I don't care for Ashara Dayne-at all 

If something interesting happened with her, will be interesting to find out, when we find out- until then I do not care- same goes for  all of Ned's youth.

And I'm also not interested at all in talking about Lyanna and Rhaegar, L+R=J makes tons of sense, I believe it. We'll find out, when we find out. I think there will be a lot about the dynamics with all those ppl of ned's generation, that we can not have possibly guess from the text - you think you've figured it all out, but then it's very different again- it's always like that with the parents'/mentors' generation- rn only Harry Potter comes to mind as an example

I think Kevan is overrated. I mean he's okay. But IMO he's a bit boring- dunno  He might be one of the most decent Lannisters, but he really got on my nerves, when Tyrion and Cersei both were in trouble with his unhelpful "help". Either help for real or get lost, Kev! Nobody needs to hear rn, that you are the most moral Lannister and think, that Tyrion and Cersei had it coming lol

[corbon]

2 minutes ago, The Green Bard said:

Yes.  You like your arguments...  and your counterarguments.  This makes my point.  

And so now if I disagree, it looks like I'm just arguing for the sake of it, proving your point. Neat trap sir!

Still, the thing I dislike is illogic. And despite its neatness, and cuteness, that was illogical.

Wanting to find the best, nearest or most likely truth, and testing ideas for that purpose, does not mean liking argument more than liking agreement about what is possible.
 

[M.Alhazred]

1 minute ago, The Green Bard said:

That is so unconventional, it borders on a troll.  lol 

I just think it is the kind of sound choice she would make in the end. She'll have her doubts but won't force the issue yet.  

[M.Alhazred]

I like Kevan he's way better than putting up with Tywin.Mace is an idiot and there is nothing to convince me otherwise.Only Olena really knows what she is doing in that family.

[The Green Bard]

6 minutes ago, M.Alhazred said:

it is the kind of sound choice she would make in the end. She'll have her doubts but won't force the issue yet.

I agree that she may not force the issue until the threat of the others is passed.  hat is as far down that path as I am willing to travel, and I am a Dany fan.   

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

32 minutes ago, corbon said:

Why does Val think Monster's not safe if Mel knows who he is. I just can't make that make sense

Ahh I totally read your question wrong the first time. Yeah, that is interesting. Maybe Val thinks Mel is a danger to the babe because she knows he is born of incest? Idk. 

[The Green Bard]

12 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

He might be one of the most decent Lannisters, but he really got on my nerves, when Tyrion and Cersei both were in trouble with his unhelpful "help". Either help for real or get lost, Kev!

Agreed.  He was self righteous to Cersei and only paid lip service to Tyrion.  They needed help.  He gave them opinions.  

[M.Alhazred]

2 minutes ago, The Green Bard said:

I agree that she may not force the issue until the threat of the others is passed.  hat is as far down that path as I am willing to travel, and I am a Dany fan.   

She joins Jon north of the wall for the time being since that would be where she's most needed.Provided that GRRM ever gets her there.

[The Green Bard]

11 minutes ago, corbon said:

And so now if I disagree, it looks like I'm just arguing for the sake of it, proving your point. Neat trap sir!

It wasn't my plan, but yes I suppose I did make it out that way.  

What I am really trying to say is that I find that good arguments for your idea are a lot more convincing and appealing than tearing down someone elses idea.  In this particulare case I think the two ideas are not mutually exclusive

13 minutes ago, corbon said:

Still, the thing I dislike is illogic. And despite its neatness, and cuteness, that was illogical.

Which was illogical?

.  

14 minutes ago, corbon said:

Wanting to find the best, nearest or most likely truth, and testing ideas for that purpose, does not mean liking argument more than liking agreement about what is possible.

I really don't understand what you are saying now.  Can you rephrase??

[The Green Bard]

5 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Ahh I totally read your question wrong the first time. Yeah, that is interesting. Maybe Val thinks Mel is a danger to the babe because she knows he is born of incest? Idk. 

Try my response from a page ago.  Val knows that Craster's kid has kingsblood too.  How else can Craster talk to the others besides telepathically?

[Nagini's Neville]

27 minutes ago, The Green Bard said:

Exactly.  It is bad parenting to not teach your children about the world.  I also find it is important to treat them like people, with respect, and not with utmost care like they are ceramic dolls.  Sadly Ned failed here with Sansa.  Now GRRM may never have parented himself, but he had parents, and he knows a lot of parents.  Given Ned's discussion with Arya, IMO he knows the difference, and this was intentional.  Ned had many chapters in that book.

Sure it was intentional. He also wrote the Tyrells, didn't he? 

And also LF  he is a creep, but he does teach Sansa some useful stuff, same goes for some other questionable ppl like Hound and Cersei. I think it was intentional, that she would learn from those ppl instead from Ned about politics and how to survive.

But Ned taught his values a lot to his children by leading by example. And for sure he also must had some talks with them about values. Remember the stuff about bravery?

"Don’t tell me Lord Eddard Stark of Winterfell never killed a man.” “That was his duty. He never liked it.” "

A Clash of Kings, Sansa 6

Sansa learns the importance of the "true knight" (only kill, when necessary and to protect the weak) through the example her father sets. And she is not naive here, we know Ned never liked killing.

And those values are just as important as LF's, Cersei's and the Hound's lessons, when it comes to longevity. The north still remembers after all.

[Nagini's Neville]

15 minutes ago, M.Alhazred said:

I like Kevan he's way better than putting up with Tywin.

that's reasonable 

Quote

Only Olena really knows what she is doing in that family.

I don't think so. IMO she runs the Tyrells, she's the boss, but all of them are probably fulfilling their role in her plan. Mag is perfect at playing her role, same goes for Garlan- they are both just way to nice and perfect. lol  Maybe Willas is the only innocent one at home with his puppies and maybe they leave Loras be as well- his life seems stressful enough. Maybe Mace is an unknowing idiot, maybe he just plays one-who knows?

 

[M.Alhazred]

5 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

that's reasonable 

I don't think so. IMO she runs the Tyrells, she's the boss, but all of them are probably fulfilling their role in her plan. Mag is perfect at playing her role, same goes for Garlan- they are both just way to nice and perfect. lol  Maybe Willas is the only innocent one at home with his puppies and maybe they leave Loras be as well- his life seems stressful enough. Maybe Mace is an unknowing idiot, maybe he just plays one-who knows?

 

Only she knows the entire plan. I don't think Mace becoming hand was in the cards.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

40 minutes ago, The Green Bard said:

Try my response from a page ago.  Val knows that Craster's kid has kingsblood too.  How else can Craster talk to the others besides telepathically?

I'll check it out. I'm not fully understanding though, why does Craster have King's blood? 

I don't know if he has to communicate with them at all but communicating telepathically doesn't seem to have anything to do with King's blood that I'm aware of. 

[Angel Eyes]

I'll take a swing.

Since women can't sit the Iron Throne according to the Great Council of 101 AC (note that Viserys II took the throne instead of his nieces), technically Renly is Stannis' heir since Shireen would not count. He didn't even need to declare himself "King". 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, The Green Bard said:

And I also think Jon thought that Craster's seed is not Kingsblood.  In fact, I don't think Jon really understands what Kingsblood is. Sure Targ blood is kingsblood, but I think it's much more than that.  I have an essay on it that I'll be posting here in a bit.  It is certainly possible that Craster has kingsblood in any number of ways, but chiefly that he could be the bastard son of Bloodraven.  Gilly's child is certainly in mortal danger if that is true.  And, Mel burnt rattleshirt as a deceipt.  She may not even care if the burnee has true kingblood.

And think how pissed Jon will be if that babe is burnt to bring him back to life.

Hmm... I don't know about that. It seems by this logic almost anyone has King's blood.

At any rate though what matters is what Mel believes & she seems to think the kings blood has to be more prominent than what little Craster may be able to claim. (I don't really by into that, but for the sake of argument) She also believes it has to be the father first & then the son. Obviously she has some things screwed up as Dany managed to hatch dragons with the son dying first, then the father. As far as we know Mance is still alive but if what the PL says is true probably not for long. We are told Stannis is dead also making Shireen another candidate. 

Val's wording makes me think it's something other than KB. She says Mel knows who he is, not what he has. I could be wrong though 

[Wall Flower]

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Another of my unconventional opinions is, that I don't care for Ashara Dayne-at all 

If something interesting happened with her, will be interesting to find out, when we find out- until then I do not care- same goes for  all of Ned's youth.

And I'm also not interested at all in talking about Lyanna and Rhaegar, L+R=J makes tons of sense, I believe it. We'll find out, when we find out. I think there will be a lot about the dynamics with all those ppl of ned's generation, that we can not have possibly guess from the text - you think you've figured it all out, but then it's very different again- it's always like that with the parents'/mentors' generation- rn only Harry Potter comes to mind as an example

I think Kevan is overrated. I mean he's okay. But IMO he's a bit boring- dunno  He might be one of the most decent Lannisters, but he really got on my nerves, when Tyrion and Cersei both were in trouble with his unhelpful "help". Either help for real or get lost, Kev! Nobody needs to hear rn, that you are the most moral Lannister and think, that Tyrion and Cersei had it coming lol

Kevin is willingly complicit in all Tywin's war crimes and allowing or even suggesting Cersei's Walk of Shame was an idiot move imo. I mean Tommen's  throne is threatened by accusations of illegitimacy and incestuous conception and Kevin thinks it a good idea to parade the king's mother naked through the streets as a whore. 

[corbon]

30 minutes ago, The Green Bard said:

It wasn't my plan, but yes I suppose I did make it out that way.  

Haha, accidental genius is not quite so impressive.

30 minutes ago, The Green Bard said:

What I am really trying to say is that I find that good arguments for your idea are a lot more convincing and appealing than tearing down someone elses idea.

Sure. For me, I can't 'follow' an idea that I haven't tested, or at least, that has not yet convinced me. I guess that makes me seem 'argumentative' to some. Thats not how I see it.

30 minutes ago, The Green Bard said:

 In this particulare case I think the two ideas are not mutually exclusive

Sure, mutual exclusivity isn't a problem. Its not one ruling out the other, its the argument for one not being convincing.

30 minutes ago, The Green Bard said:

Which was illogical?

I really don't understand what you are saying now.  Can you rephrase??

Well, Its not really important. If you really want, PM me and I'll explain in more depth. 

28 minutes ago, The Green Bard said:

Try my response from a page ago.  Val knows that Craster's kid has kingsblood too.  How else can Craster talk to the others besides telepathically?

I don't think Crasetr has kingsblood, but that would be a reason. I don;t think Val knows about Bloodraven, for example.

I also don't think Craster talks to the Others, or communicates with them in any real way. I think he just leaves sacrifices (to the 'old gods') and hopes for the best, and it seemed to work. Frankly, I think he stumbled on it by accident, getting rid of his sons anyway to avoid one growing up and challenging him.

[Hugorfonics]

4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

that's weird. there are a lot of other stuff much harder to defend  

 

And also who is a good guy to you in this series 

Lol

Idk, that's your Sir Galahads. Shining white knight bullshit that Sansa learned to sing

So, let's go by the Ani way of looking at it cuz we've done it before and i like star wars lol. Hes a likeable and pitiful kid with nice moves in a podracer but I wouldnt call him a good guy till he blew up that big ship and won the battle of naboo. He stayed a good guy till the younglings and his renounce of the light. But in between are the Sand People (lol Tatooiens are so racist) not just the men, but the women... and the CHILdren. (Lol Hayden Christianson)  but hes still good, still rescues Ben and tries to stop evil. So, in Ani terms I want my good guys to 

A. Accomplish good deeds, change things for the better, and preferably put their own life on the line for them

B. Walk the thin line of their vanity

 

So, Dany. Shes pretty accomplished. Shes got 163 reasons why shes not though, still id say shes a good guy, call em tusken raiders. Brienne is small potatoes, but whatever. Jon, for sure, even if the babies die. Imp? Hes such an up and down guy. Catelyn? Running an orphanage is nice but hanging Brienne and Frey noblemen actually sounds kinda reasonable. It starts to get dicey. Especially with your girl. You may think nothings going to happen to Lord Robert, but I disagree

Robb also failed like Ned. Also made stupid decisions, but he actually stood for something. And although he never blew up a spacestation he still showed passion and sought to create a better world. Vastly different then his father, young and old

4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

he is definitely not perfect, but at least he was vehemently against it, wasn't he? And that might have had a significant influence on Robert's final decision. Because he actually valued ned's input.

Also what could Ned have done better in this situation? He is not the King after all, but he repeatedly tried to convince Bobby.

First of all, Robert didn't care about Neds input. Also, at least hes against it? I guess, but im not giving him a point for that.

Davos saved a child from his king. He can do anything he wants, hes Hand! Once the meeting ends arrest the messenger, go to the docks and tell them to follow that ship, question pycelle about the raven, ask Petyr who they sent. Fucking anything, hes acting leader of Westeros.

He just grumbles to Robert, its Lady all over again. (He couldn't do much about Lady, not ragging him for that).  No backbone

4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

But that's still the reality for women at that time, isn't it? The truth is Arya can't become a high Septon. IMO that doesn't suggest, that he would force her into a marriage she would absolutely not want. Sure it suggests he thinks, hopes she will want to become a High lady someday and since she is only nine, it's not unreasonable to believe that.

Westeros wasnt a time, but yea, even today a little girl can never become the pope. She can be like, idk do they have high ranking nuns or whatever? Whatever, Arya could be a Septa she could totally be a kings counselor or hold a holdfast and all that. Ned expects Arya to be a high lady, although its strikingly clear she doesnt want to be.

4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

.really? What about Robert? Sam's dad? Stannis? Viserys? Bolton? Ramsey? the mountain? Tyrion? Cersei? Sandor? (alright him is unfair lol) even Hoster did some real shit to his children

Ok, loving your family isnt the mark of a good guy, thats common human behavior.

4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

IMO Ned should have just forbidden Jon to go, but I mean PLOT lol and also I think there is something to be said for ned being not a total dictator to his kids, when a lot of fathers are and he would have the right to. At least he cares, what his children want -to an extent

Everything is plot. Ned should have told him the true realities of the Wall, not the dumb stories Old Nan told. 

He really shoulda taken Jon to KL, he couldn't though cuz Cerseis so mean to bastards. Like Aurane Waters lol

4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Yeah, and I think it's definitely right to question and criticize that. Part of his weakness is that he is a rule follower like Sansa and Jon as well. I hope part of Jon's and Sansa's arc will be to break free from, that and use their own heads in that regard. Jon is already doing that, Sansa just needs to catch up now, kill LF and rescue SR  

Jon and Sansa are not rule followers, neither of them. Jon kinda, he twists the rules to his liking. Which is good by me.

And Im not arguing against capitol punishment, Karstark for example, imo, needed to die. This personal business, it makes it real which is good. Also when Jon was told to take care of Ygritte he summarized thats why Ned taught him to look into someones soul before judgment.

But this toy soldier shit, yea not cool, at all. Hes all like "this was meant for Brandon, blah blah blah" but Brandons been dead and Neds been in charge, why follow rules when your the rulemaker?

4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Still Ned doesn't take killing lightly at all. He should have questioned the deserter at least and not be so rigid in his rule following, but you can't just have everyone turn craven and flee the wall. Ned probably didn't make the execute the deserters rule.

Its a rule that the old bear didnt alwalys enforce, Jon either. 

4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

lol he made his own sons do that as well - he didn't want to harm his sons that way either, did he?

He did not mistreat Theon though. Theon is just a whiny narcissist. What was Ned to do? He had to take care of his people and make sure there wasn't a next war. He needed to keep halon in check. Taking a hostage is an effective way to do that. He raised him with his own sons - which was probably a bit stupid of him. Should have made clear to Robb: DON'T TRUST THE HOSTAGE

No child should be raised like that. Cold and in constant fear of death. If you think the child deserved worse then that then we're at an impasse. 

4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I don't think she was really scared of him, but yeah he used his "right" to boss her around to make her shut up. Must be weird, when your partner suddenly turns into your parent 

Catelyn used the word frightened

4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

yeah, the rule following is a bit of a problem- but the Great Ned must have weaknesses too 

The rule following is bad, but the constant need to push away his responsibilities was his main weakness I think. 

3 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

you mean the first time he quit being the hand? 

No, when Robert made Ned protector of the realm and Ned prepared to give it to Stannis. Or when he conquered the IT for Robert and then bitched and moaned over dragonspawn instead of doing anything. 

3 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Honestly I always find it interesting ppl are so upset about Mycah, because the Hound didn't even know him or saw what he did. He was probably only told this guy tried to kill the crown prince and as his bodyguard, it's kind of his job to execute that boy. Would Barry have refused? Could you just have refused that order? And how many innocent Mycahs died, because Robb didn't bend the knee? Probably way more, than the Hound has ever killed.

I aint putting Barri on my good guy list either. Hounds a fucking hitman. A yesman for a tyrant. Hes like a wight, a brainless weapon for his monstrous master.

Thats not fair to compare them to the majority of Robbs war. His uncles land was in constant attack, people were being slaughtered. Robb was fighting for protection of his people not an executioner from a kangaroo court

3 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Having to use this primitive language helps with the task 

Primitive? Lol, your language is way older then mine.  

And what's wrong with "gone"? Lol

[The Green Bard]

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I'll check it out. I'm not fully understanding though, why does Craster have King's blood? 

First, because he is potentiall Bloodraven's bastard.  I should have said he may have kingsblood. I cannot be certain of his parentage, of course.

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't know if he has to communicate with them at all but communicating telepathically doesn't seem to have anything to do with King's blood that I'm aware of. 

I think it has everything to do with it. Rhaegar would agree, I think, if we could ask him.  Why else choose the womb of a certain Northern girl.  See below.

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Hmm... I don't know about that. It seems by this logic almost anyone has King's blood.

Yes, well technically 1 in 1000 per the CotF, but since it would be hereditary (blood = genes), it would not be randomly distributed.  I just posted my essay about Kingsblood here.  

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

She also believes it has to be the father first & then the son.

Hmm.  I am drawing a blank on what you are referring to here.  Do you have the quote?

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Val's wording makes me think it's something other than KB. She says Mel knows who he is, not what he has. I could be wrong though

Yes, and if I am right about Craster's father being Bloodraven, he has kingsblood from either the Blackwood / Warg King line / Garth / Jade Emperor line, or the Targaryen / Valyrian / Amethyst Empress line.  Mel, being educated in Asshai, would be well aware of the Kingsblood of the Great Empire of the Dawn.

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

As far as we know Mance is still alive but if what the PL says is true probably not for long. We are told Stannis is dead also making Shireen another candidate.

I doubt either are dead.  Besides, the Bael character hides in the crypts after stealing the Stark maid.  I think it's too soon for Shireen to be sacrificed... perhaps toward the end of TWOW.