For Jaime/Hound supporters: Would your attitude towards the Hound/Jaime change, if Mycah/Bran had been a girl?

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, Morte said:

Actually, because I just reread Jaime's chapters in ASOS: Jaime clearly has doubts about Tyrion's guilt - he oscillates between Loras' theory (Sansa did it and Tyrion is gallant and doesn't tell - which by the by tells us, that Jaime is not the only Kingsguard who either didn't talk to his family about this, or whose opinion wasn't wanted) and Tyrion having a very good reason to do this. Both are very good reason for Jaime himself to free his brother beside his "debt" to Tyrion.

I never doubted that. My point simply was that Jaime never talked with Cersei or Tyrion directly as to why they thought Tyrion was innocent/guilty. Something he should have done before he decided to free this man who is now a convicted kingslayer.

I understand why one would save the life one's brother ... but I'd not free my brother if I were Jaime without having good evidence that he didn't kill my son-nephew.

I'd likely do my best to spare/save his life - get him to the Wall, maybe. But freeing him is just stupid. As an action it shows the only thing Jaime really thought about there was his debt - he made a solitary decision that Tyrion would not die because of his personal reasons. It is not really about affection and love but about a debt ... a very weird and ugly way of dealing with your own family.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

never doubted that. My point simply was that Jaime never talked with Cersei or Tyrion directly as to why they thought Tyrion was innocent/guilty. Something he should have done before he decided to free this man who is now a convicted kingslayer

No, you said there was no indication that Jaime questioned the validity of the trial. 

[Lord Varys]

Just now, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

No, you said there was no indication that Jaime questioned the validity of the trial. 

That was about him not being in a position to change it ... because he allowed the trial to run its course. Unlike Kevan, he never talked to Tyrion during the trial to get his version of the story - or figure out what actually happened. Once Tyrion was convicted by the trial-by-combat (which he likely wouldn't have chosen had he realized Jaime was around and might be able to help him) he was a convicted kingslayer and kinslayer. There is no way now to exonerate him now.

It is utter hubris to watch a trial unfold, do nothing to change its course even if you have the power to do so, and then presume to save the convicted murderer because you 'owe him a debt'.

[Ivan Tsarevich]

23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Of course it was valuable for Tyrion's growth as a character ... but what was the point there for Jaime? There is none but the satisfaction this brings for himself.

The growth of Tyrion's character and satisfaction for Jaime are both irrelevant to the point. Jaime was able to do a nice thing for his brother, and he did it.

23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I think anyone in Tyrion's position getting this weird talk from Jaime would ask. I certainly would.

I think there may well be people who would ask: "Do I want to hear this?" People who would say: "Wait, do not tell me after all."

23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That doesn't change the fact that Jaime attended the trial and heard everything the judges heard. Not only the gods but the evidence, too, condemned Tyrion by the standards of the world they live in. And Cersei would have told Jaime why she thought Tyrion had killed their son if he had bothered to ask her. She tries to tell him in the tower.

The evidence is either false or circumstantial, and Cersei is wrong. Tyrion is not guilty and we all know it.

Jaime not being convinced makes him credit.

23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Just read the section where he rants that there aren't men like him, only him. His overall carefree, irresponsible attitude which always endangered him, his sister, and their children (and which likely drove Cersei to the conclusion that while she loved Jaime she could not trust on this guy in most of her schemes and plots), the way he conducts himself as a man above the laws of gods and men (the wolf isn't allowed to judge him, he can be like the Targaryens and marry his sister no matter what).

Jaime utters that famous quote in Riverrun cell. Do you mean the Harrenhal baths? I see nothing there that says Jaime was that selfish before his experiences in Aerys' KG.

Anyhow, the Targs and Starks are not above Jaime. The Doctrine of Exceptionalism is based on raw power in it's root. Eddard did not know the truth about Aerys' wildfire plot and made his judgement hastily.

23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The issue is what he thinks and acts and what he is capable of. There are certainly characters in this series who are worse than Jaime, but I'd say that there are very few POVs who are as cold and capable of the things he did. People like Ned, Cat, Jon, Davos, Arianne, and a number of others would not be capable of thinking or doing things of the sort Jaime did or entertained doing.

Westeros is a shitty place, but not as shitty that everybody is a potential child murderer. That is still a profession for special people, no?

People are different, and think and act in different ways. You are judging him for being calm and rational and having grit to get his hands dirty. I actually... respect those traits.

As for child murderers, it's one thing to be capable of something and another to go through with it. I touched on my personal opinion on the matter in my first post in this thread.

23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, to be sure, Varys is to be blamed for allowing himself to be 'threatened' by Jaime into freeing Tyrion and for giving him directions to Tywin, not to mention for helping Tywin to get Shae up there unseen. But that's another rabbit hole.

The overall point just is that Jaime trying to pay a debt leads to an even greater debt (the deaths of his father and Shae) his share of which he is then not exactly keep to pay, is he?

Those murders are not on Jaime. And no, he has yet to turn himself in, despite the guilt he feels. Shae and Tywin are dead, he can't pay anything to them. I do not remember an instance where he recognizes any debt to Cersei for freeing Tyrion... but he does seem inclined to kill Varys.

23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

No, he certainly knew what he did, especially with Shae. That one is the unforgivable act as George highlights again and again in ADwD when Tyrion remembers how long it took to kill her and how she fought back.

Tywin I'd characterize as manslaughter with mitigating factors by our modern standards. Possibly even self-defense insofar as it was clear that allowing Tywin to rise and do something about the situation would have led to Tyrion's arrest and execution for a crime he didn't commit. But then - he broke into Tywin's home and threatened him with a weapon...

Thanks for your thoughts.

23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Okay, then that's out of the way. I'm not great expert on that topic either, but after reading a couple of popular books on psychopaths there are rather glaring similarities there in my opinion.

Would you recommend those books? And if yes, would you care to share their names and authors?

23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Brienne was charged with bringing Jaime safely back to KL as per Catelyn's orders. She was not so much a captor but a protector-captor. Which most likely was the reason why he didn't crush her head with the oar.

As I already mentioned above: We do get many warrior POVs but there aren't many where we read things like the oar thing, are there? Victarion springs to mind, of course, but he is in a different category entirely.

I'd maintain that while both Ned and Jaime are soldiers, these two would be apples and oranges, no?

Brienne kept Jaime in chains, denied him weapons and forbade him to speak, though did not enforce that last one. Yes, she was his captor. Her protection of him is as nice as it's irrelevant.

Ned and Jaime are indeed different people with different styles. Off top of my head, Jaime is a champion and one of the great, if not the greatest, swordsmen of his generation, and an inspiring commander who leads by the example from the front. Fighting is fun, especially if you're good at it. I would say it's the adrenaline. That does not yet, in my opinion, make Jaime sadistic or necessarily even cruel. I make the difference between enjoying the contest, challenge and danger and enjoying the pain of the others for the sake of it. I would also think that Ned led from the front, and may have gotten to the melee, but if we believe Sansa, he never liked killing.

23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Nobody said anything about there being a guarantee ... but it can't be denied that Cersei's insane obsession with Tyrion in the walls wouldn't have developed if Jaime had told her he helped him flee to the Free Cities.

I question it.

On 5/1/2020 at 10:05 PM, TsarGrey said:

Jaime does not know that Tyrion boarded that ship, he was not there.

23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Cersei's issues with the Tyrells are justified. They did murder her son. She doesn't know it yet, but she is doing the right thing if she avenges herself and her family on them.

I do not really justify revenge, but Cersei's issues with the Tyrells are indeed at least partially justified.

23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think a war with the Free Cities is very likely. And the dwarfs are pretty irrelevant, anyway. She never commanded them to be killed, did she? Putting a price on somebody's head is a common practice in this world.

Cersei ceased the payments to the Iron Bank and got them to support Stannis without any of that. Do you not think there could happen something unforeseen if she thought that Tyrion could possibly be, say, sitting in the Sealord's table?

23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It is not touched upon by the author aside from Jaime knowing that he is playing a charade when he investigates things and had the Tower of the Hand searched, etc. But the point here simply was to highlight the fact that Jaime doesn't really care about taking responsibility for his actions ... he only does that when it suits him. As it did with Tyrion. That is something that bothered him for a long time and one can understand why that is.

I'd say that carefully choosing when and how to commit possibly explosive actions is a sign of wisdom. But I see and appreciate your point. Jaime can indeed be fairly criticized for failing to consistently take responsibility for everything he does. Whether or not he is justified by the right of self-preservation in this particular instance I'm not at the moment interested in tackling.

23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Again, how does this fit together with Jaime's desire to tell Tommen and Myrcella who they truly are ... with the implicit intention to reveal the truth to the world since it will apparently lead, in Jaime's opinion, to the end of the Martell betrothal?

I'm not talking about that, so no comment. My point is that Jaime has other things to do than voluntarily die.

23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

In my opinion, Jaime acts like a child there. He is unhappy that he lost his hand, that his sister doesn't want to marry him and destroy the lives of their children in the process of that shitty idea, that his father makes plans to marry him to a woman who isn't Cersei, and that other people made him Lord Commander of the Kingsguard without asking his permission first ... all the while forgetting that his reckless, thoughtless behavior back in AGoT got his sister and their children in mortal danger after Jaime fled the city and that his own mistakes as general got him imprisoned.

Jaime should kiss Cersei's and Tywin's feet that they still take him in after he fucked things up for the Lannisters to the degree that he did. But there is not the slightest hint that he realizes he did make any mistakes.

When he rejects Tywin's offer? I disagree. Shouldering the responsibility is what makes people grow adults. Jaime in that instance is choosing to honor his duty as the Lord Commander of the KG. It's not the duty which Tywin and Cersei want him to honor, but what of that? It's Tywin who is going against the grain there, wanting to continue exploit the breach of tradition made by Joffrey and (maybe) Cersei, offering to bribe the High Septon to annul Jaime's vows.

I seem to recall some talk about Tywin telling Jaime to not worry about Robb, but I cannot make a case and so do not press the point.

23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Do you see the irony there that Jaime dares to compare himself to Ser Arthur Dayne who likely wished to have crush Jaime's head on first sight after he learned about what the Kingslayer did?

The first vermin in the Kingsguard was Jaime Lannister himself. He can never bring honor to that institution ... or rather he could if he admitted to his crimes, condemned himself, got himself a rope, and hanged himself from a window at White Sword Tower. Thereafter people might be able to restore honor to the KG. But while Jaime runs the order this isn't going to work.

Not really. I think I did for a moment when you pointed it out, but it seems to have escaped me.

Jaime idealizes Dayne and looks up to him. That does not mean that I should care about Dayne's opinion, especially when he did not know the full truth any more than Ned did.

Do you see his shame? Do you not think that admitting a wrong is a step toward righting things? You cannot have a redemption arc if you do not first fall low. Jaime is entirely correct to contrast himself with Dayne. It makes him aspire for better.

Jaime may be the only person in the entire Westeros who actually cares about the state of the KG and is also in position to do something about it. He carries on the tradition of the Targaryen days. He has the spine to stand up to his father and sister who use the KG for their dirty work. He tries to instill some control on his brothers. (ASoS, Jaime VIII.)

Spoiler

"Ser Meryn." Jaime smiled at the sour knight with the rust-red hair and the pouches under his eyes. "I have heard it said that Joffrey made use of you to chastise Sansa Stark." He turned the White Book around one-handed. "Here, show me where it is in our vows that we swear to beat women and children."

23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Genna doesn't seem to have an accurate picture of her brother's children (how should she, Jaime spent most of his life away from Casterly Rock). She doesn't know that Jaime joined the KG to fuck Cersei.

I don't necessarily agree, but that's irrelevant. In my opinion, what's important in those quotes is not what Genna tells to Jaime, but what our author may have put in there for the reader. The point is the correlation between Kevan and Jaime. Kevan said he was tired, Jaime was tired when he rejected Tywin's offer. Kevan was dutiful, therefore Jaime is dutiful if there's some Kevan in him.

23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And to be clear - his issues with Cersei in AFfC have nothing to do with Brienne or him growing apart from her. It is all petty jealousy as the author hammers home again and again with Jaime constantly remembering Tyrion's line about Lancel and Osmund and Moon Boy fucking Cersei. He cannot bear the thought that Cersei has other men besides him. This is a hatred grown out of love, not him realizing that Cersei isn't good for him or stuff like that.

They could have made their relationship work easily enough if they had just talked about what had happened after Jaime's return.

Jaime sure is jealous, but I disagree. Brienne has reminded Jaime of the ideal of knighthood. He has changed. (ASoS, Jaime VII.)

Spoiler

Cersei recoiled from his stump. "Don't . . . don't talk like this. You're scaring me, Jaime. Don't be stupid. One wrong word and you'll cost us everything. What did they do to you?"

"They cut off my hand."

"No, it's more, you're changed." She backed off a step. "We'll talk later. On the morrow. I have Sansa Stark's maids in a tower cell, I need to question them . . . you should go to Father."

You may argue that this quote has nothing to do with my point and handles entirely different thing. I'm not however really interested in studying the matter right now to greater degree, and I like the possible allusion in it.

[Morte]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I understand why one would save the life one's brother ... but I'd not free my brother if I were Jaime without having good evidence that he didn't kill my son-nephew.

I'd likely do my best to spare/save his life - get him to the Wall, maybe. But freeing him is just stupid. As an action it shows the only thing Jaime really thought about there was his debt - he made a solitary decision that Tyrion would not die because of his personal reasons. It is not really about affection and love but about a debt ... a very weird and ugly way of dealing with your own family.

As said multiple time here on the thread: Jaime is no saint, he might not even be a good man (he isn't, really). He is an arrogant snob, can be ruthless and cold (this is also required for his job), and he even is a little bit narcissistic, yes - but he is not a psychopath, just a typical chaotic neutral character.

And he does change, but slowly, and of course this change is self-centred, how else? He must realize he wants to be something better, that's only working from the inside and only by circling around and contemplating his own persona, that's what he does - and of course he is deep in self-pity, he lost the only thing that make his old persona, his sword-skills (and he's pathetic about this, of course - every person in self-pity is pathetic, however right they might be*). Now he has to find something else, let's see if he succeeds(?spelling?).

But one thing: Jaime does love his brother, he even loves his father (just, it isn't a very healthy relationship) - and he does love his sister, she is the only woman he ever was with, so of course he is jealous and hurt. This is a very normal human reaction, not psychopathic at all - the question is, how will he develop from here, and this we do not know.

* There is a song from Herbert Grönemeyer about "Selbstmitleid", self-pity, unfortunatly it's in german... and youtube has only live versions >.<, don't try it.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That was about him not being in a position to change it ... because he allowed the trial to run its course. Unlike Kevan, he never talked to Tyrion during the trial to get his version of the story - or figure out what actually happened. Once Tyrion was convicted by the trial-by-combat (which he likely wouldn't have chosen had he realized Jaime was around and might be able to help him) he was a convicted kingslayer and kinslayer. There is no way now to exonerate him now.

It is utter hubris to watch a trial unfold, do nothing to change its course even if you have the power to do so, and then presume to save the convicted murderer because you 'owe him a debt'.

To be fair: This one is more on Martin than on Jaime or any other character:

First we witness the tragedy unfold, we see how Joffrey humiliates Tyrion in public - once, twice, thrice ... and nobody does anything, and with nobody, I mean Tywin Lannister. This man watches and says nothing - the book incident, the dwarfs(!?! really, really?!?!), the wine on Tyrions head. The man who hates to be laughed upon and feels seriously offended by a crofter's daughter watches as this Baratheon king who happens to be his great-son is insulting his son and makes people laugh at Tyrion - and Tywin says nothing, not one word. Others have to jump in (and with this the insult is even growing, as Tyrells have to defend a Lannister! Bobby and Aerys would not be able to stop laughing also - Tywin who spoke out against the Lord of the Crossing and his father at the age of ten has lost his cojones and is now not even able to speak out against his teenager great-son. Wow!)  ... this is so out of character, I can't even...

We also don't see a trial unfold, we see a charade, and it is clear to the reader, it is clear to the Viper, and even Loras (who I think is one of the Tyrells who did not know about the plot) sees that Tyrion is a quite unlikely subject. While at the same time we don't ever see Tywin fucking Lannister questioning the trial, although it should be clear to him that Tyrion looks too suspicious - and where the fuck is Sansa?

So no: We can't have the Kingsguard investigating on their own account, we don't see Tyrion calling all the "witnesses" his sister presented in, so they are forced to tell the whole story, no. We don't see the judges investigating - how should Cersei have been able to make all the people tell half truths if Tywin would have wanted the true culprit?

Long story short: Martin did not want to write this is a logical and in-character way, as it would have taken much longer and would have ended differently. He wanted Tyrion darker, estranged from his family, out of KL and in Essos; Tywin dead; a cheep reason for Cersei to go even more nuts; and the Viper dead in a tragic and horrible way to get Dorne even more pissed.

Mission accomplished, character integrity and logical interaction on their way to the hospital, massive ethanol intoxication.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Morte said:

As said multiple time here on the thread: Jaime is no saint, he might not even be a good man (he isn't, really). He is an arrogant snob, can be ruthless and cold (this is also required for his job), and he even is a little bit narcissistic, yes - but he is not a psychopath, just a typical chaotic neutral character.

I said he scored pretty high on the checklist, not that he was a fullblown psychopath. He is like one of those highly functioning ones. People who could easily enough kill someone if they had to, but who are in a position where they don't feel the need to do it most of the time.

Jaime shows what he is when he tries to murder Bran. The fact is - normal people couldn't do things like that. Normal people also don't fuck their sisters at the age of six, don't swear solemn vows to fuck their sisters some more, murder their kings, cuckold their kings, etc.

There is something very, very wrong with this guy - something that started in early childhood. And it has nothing to do with abuse or anything of that sort.

1 hour ago, Morte said:

And he does change, but slowly, and of course this change is self-centred, how else? He must realize he wants to be something better, that's only working from the inside and only by circling around and contemplating his own persona, that's what he does - and of course he is deep in self-pity, he lost the only thing that make his old persona, his sword-skills (and he's pathetic about this, of course - every person in self-pity is pathetic, however right they might be*). Now he has to find something else, let's see if he succeeds(?spelling?).

Well, let's not talk about him as if were a real person. We do that occasionally, but he is a fictional character and he is written in a certain way, not an actual character who thinks or acts when the author doesn't write him.

Jaime is written in a way where it is clear that whatever change takes place in him (and I actually don't see many changes on the inside) is not caused by him realizing that he had done something wrong or had made wrong decisions. We do even realize that the guy doesn't understand what his problems are. He realizes that he wanted to be Ser Arthur Dayne and turned into the Smiling Knight, but he has no idea why that is and he never realizes where exactly he, Jaime Lannister, made a crucial mistake that turned his life on the head.

1 hour ago, Morte said:

But one thing: Jaime does love his brother, he even loves his father (just, it isn't a very healthy relationship) - and he does love his sister, she is the only woman he ever was with, so of course he is jealous and hurt. This is a very normal human reaction, not psychopathic at all - the question is, how will he develop from here, and this we do not know.

Cersei may have been the only woman Jaime ever was, but that is not a sign of deep love and understanding. He never cared much about her as a person. Many people go about and claim Cersei only loves Jaime as an extension of herself, but that's wrong ... or rather: more true for Jaime than for Cersei. Cersei understands Jaime much better than he understands her. She knows how to push his buttons, to convince him to see things her way. Jaime has essentially no idea what drives Cersei, who she is and what she wants for what reasons.

Jaime has no reason nor any right to be jealous. We know stuff about Cersei, but he has only the word of the lying dwarf. He should have talked to Cersei about this. Because, you know, Cersei cannot be Jaime. She had to do a lot ugly things while Jaime had to get himself captured and emasculated ... none of which would have been necessary if Jaime hadn't fucked things up.

But in any case - the point there is that Jaime clearly only starts to distance himself because of petty jealousy, not because he thinks Cersei is bad for him or a bad person or anything of that sort.

If he ends up killing Cersei then this could very well be just another ugly case of misogyny ... a man killing a woman out of jealousy.

1 hour ago, Morte said:

To be fair: This one is more on Martin than on Jaime or any other character:

First we witness the tragedy unfold, we see how Joffrey humiliates Tyrion in public - once, twice, thrice ... and nobody does anything, and with nobody, I mean Tywin Lannister. This man watches and says nothing - the book incident, the dwarfs(!?! really, really?!?!), the wine on Tyrions head. The man who hates to be laughed upon and feels seriously offended by a crofter's daughter watches as this Baratheon king who happens to be his great-son is insulting his son and makes people laugh at Tyrion - and Tywin says nothing, not one word. Others have to jump in (and with this the insult is even growing, as Tyrells have to defend a Lannister! Bobby and Aerys would not be able to stop laughing also - Tywin who spoke out against the Lord of the Crossing and his father at the age of ten has lost his cojones and is now not even able to speak out against his teenager great-son. Wow!)  ... this is so out of character, I can't even...

This makes perfect sense in light of the fact that Tywin loathes Tyrion. He is only a Lannister by virtue of being Joanna's son, not because Tywin sees him as his seed or heir. He makes that perfectly clear. Allowing Joff to do with Tyrion as he pleases helps Tywin with his own plans ... which at the point of the wedding likely were to make Tommen the next Lord of Casterly Rock.

It seems quite clear that Tywin was done with Tyrion for good after the threats he made against Cersei and Tommen.

1 hour ago, Morte said:

We also don't see a trial unfold, we see a charade, and it is clear to the reader, it is clear to the Viper, and even Loras (who I think is one of the Tyrells who did not know about the plot) sees that Tyrion is a quite unlikely subject. While at the same time we don't ever see Tywin fucking Lannister questioning the trial, although it should be clear to him that Tyrion looks too suspicious - and where the fuck is Sansa?

Cersei wouldn't have done anything at the trial without Tywin giving his okay. If the trial was a charade, it was Tywin's charade. But seriously ... Tyrion himself was asked about Sansa, he could have shifted the blame to her entirely. But he didn't. That's his fault. Tyrion poured out the wine, destroying evidence, Tyrion threatened Cersei and Tommen, Tyrion had a series of direct confrontations with his nephew and king ... and nowhere did he show the slightest deference to his monarch.

It is not that Tyrion had any chance to present a case where he would appear as a guy who loved Joffrey and meant him no harm.

1 hour ago, Morte said:

So no: We can't have the Kingsguard investigating on their own account, we don't see Tyrion calling all the "witnesses" his sister presented in, so they are forced to tell the whole story, no. We don't see the judges investigating - how should Cersei have been able to make all the people tell half truths if Tywin would have wanted the true culprit?

Long story short: Martin did not want to write this is a logical and in-character way, as it would have taken much longer and would have ended differently. He wanted Tyrion darker, estranged from his family, out of KL and in Essos; Tywin dead; a cheep reason for Cersei to go even more nuts; and the Viper dead in a tragic and horrible way to get Dorne even more pissed.

Mission accomplished, character integrity and logical interaction on their way to the hospital, massive ethanol intoxication.

Regardless what Martin wanted, the fact remains that the character of Jaime as written watched how Tyrion was convicted first before he intervened. This means we have to take into account that the man did not interact as something the author wanted to convey. Jaime did not care enough about Tyrion to prevent his father and sister from convicting him. If we assume he always planned to save Tyrion's life then perhaps he also saw the whole thing as an opportunity to repay his debt rather than actually get Tyrion off the hook earlier?

It doesn't work to let Jaime as written off the hook so easily there.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Jaime shows what he is when he tries to murder Bran. The fact is - normal people couldn't do things like that

I think you would be surprised at what normal people might do in a situation like this. There is actually an SSM somewhere where Martin talks about asking people what they would do in a situation like this & the majority of them, after being pressed admit they would likely do something similar. 

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Normal people also don't fuck their sisters at the age of six

Indeed. Nor do normal people sleep with their brothers at 6 - or anyone for that matter. The fact that this affliction has affected 2 children in the family is indicative that the issue is either genetic or a result of their upbringing. 

15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

don't swear solemn vows to fuck their sisters some more, murder their kings, cuckold their kings, etc.

Right or manipulate their brothers using sex to get what they want. I think the murdering their King's thing is arguable. I think many normal people may have killed Aerys given the opportunity. 

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There is something very, very wrong with this guy - something that started in early childhood. And it has nothing to do with abuse or anything of that sort.

We don't really know that. 

 

[Nagini's Neville]

Is it still all about whether jaime is a psychopath or not? And whether he was abused by Tywin and how he did Cersei and Tyrion wrong?

[kissdbyfire]

42 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Is it still all about whether jaime is a psychopath or not? And whether he was abused by Tywin and how he did Cersei and Tyrion wrong?

From what I can surmise from skimming through - b/c life’s too damn short - @Lord Varys is still at it, well beyond the point of being just a contrarian, claiming Jaime is a fucked up evul psycho, even though everyone else and their dogs disagreed and tried to explain that no, that’s not what the text shows.

[frenin]

44 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Is it still all about whether jaime is a psychopath or not?

He simply isn't, this discussion  makes no sense. It's just Varys  picking things he doesn't like about Jaime and labeling them as psychotic, and i really dislike Jaime so this is irritating.

 

47 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And whether he was abused by Tywin and how he did Cersei and Tyrion wrong?

He is right when he says that there is not enough info to say that Tywin objectively abused Cersei, since that part of her life is a blur.

But the Tysha incident was def abusive to both his sons. Tywin forced them to partake in a terrible scene just to satisfy his vanity and that's a scar  both men carry through all their lives.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I think you would be surprised at what normal people might do in a situation like this. There is actually an SSM somewhere where Martin talks about asking people what they would do in a situation like this & the majority of them, after being pressed admit they would likely do something similar. 

George himself isn't exactly the most normal of guys, if you read his stories (I'm thinking about his real world inspirations for 'Meathouse Man' and 'Weekend in a War Zone').

The thought of murdering Bran isn't the issue ... the point is doing the deed. Even Cersei understood that this was madness and cruelty. She rightfully scolded Jaime for saving Bran before trying to kill him. He wanted to murder the child. A less rotten character would have allowed the boy to fall. But Jaime had to save him first so he could kill him afterwards.

That's not something everybody in Jaime's situation would do.

Most normal people would likely also not fuck a sister who is married to a king who they serve as sworn bodyguard and father three children on said sister.

If you want to put yourself in Jaime's shoes do it all the way. Ask yourself if you are as stupid as to do shit like that.

One can understand the desire to kill Bran, but if your anthropology is that most people would act like the shithead Jaime Lannister in a similar situation then we really cannot talk with each other. Because in my world decent people simply don't do such things. They might think about it, for a moment or two, but decent people, normal people wouldn't go through with it.

And if you think about then this is ridiculous. It is like pretending it is a rational choice for a criminal to kill or silence any person who may be privy to your crimes. That's not something that even all the worst criminals do. Sometimes one could also confess one's crimes and hope/plea for mercy. Also, like with Aerys II - Jaime wasn't forced to murder Bran to silence him. As Cersei points out, there were other means to silence him. They could have explained what had been going as them as something twin siblings do occasionally, and they could have spend the rest of the day with him talking to him about many other things, confusing his memory about what he overheard (like Arya failed to remember accurately what she heard in the tunnels). Not to mention that the queen could have invited Bran to ride in her wheelhouse throughout the journey to KL, to live with Tommen in Maegor's Holdfast, or something along those lines ... while Jaime could have promised Bran to take him on as a squire and do everything in his power so he would join the Kingsguard one day. It is not that difficult to bribe a child. And Bran was only seven years old. Even if he had told something to someone chances are that they could have discredited what he said easily enough.

Instead, Jaime's behavior - and the rationale of people defending Jaime there - shows that you think of murder as an easy and justified way of solving a problem you might have. That is the attitude of a murderer. And the very same attitude I criticize in Arya murdering that guardsman at Harrenhal. It is not justified to murder people just because they know stuff that might be dangerous for you or simply because they stand in your way.

I don't think Jaime and Cersei would have gotten alive out of the twincest thing (although you never know with a man like Robert), but they certainly should have been able to prevent Robert from murdering the children.

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Indeed. Nor do normal people sleep with their brothers at 6 - or anyone for that matter. The fact that this affliction has affected 2 children in the family is indicative that the issue is either genetic or a result of their upbringing. 

It could also just mean that Jaime and Cersei are just fucked-up people. George is not exactly very modern with most of his 'evil people' thing. Some of his abusers/criminals like Littlefinger and Sandor and Arya suffer severe traumas/humiliations helping to explain how they became what they are. And we get a lot of other such stuff with the broken men thing, etc. But there are others who are just evil for the sake of being evil.

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Right or manipulate their brothers using sex to get what they want. I think the murdering their King's thing is arguable. I think many normal people may have killed Aerys given the opportunity. 

Not in a world where you are trained to obey your king without question. And certainly not men who sworn the vow of a Kingsguard. But killing Aerys II isn't really Jaime's worst crime. It is still a crime and outright murder (and, like any murder, should have resulted in his immediate execution) but I'd argue that him cuckolding Robert is nearly as worse, especially in light of the fact that Robert pardoned this prick and allowed him to remain in his Kingsguard. How ungrateful a shit is Jaime Lannister, truly?

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

We don't really know that.

As long as we have no reason to assume that Jaime was abused or anything we should assume he wasn't. Else I say our default take on characters should be to invent excuses why Gregor, Ramsy, Roose, Euron, Victarion, etc. are nice people who do what they do simply because they were allegedly abused in their childhood. Gregor certainly has severe issues with his head that bring forth his ugly tendencies. But headaches are no excuse for sadistic murders, right? Just as being Euron also is no excuse for killing two of your brothers while you are still a child.

[Nagini's Neville]

@kissdbyfire & @frenin thanks for the update   Then I'll drop by later again. 

PS: I think Tywin was abusive to all 3 of his children (Tyrion the worst). That's why they are all messed up. Even if Cersei is a bit(or very lol) sociopathic I don't think Cersei and Jaime would have had this incestuous relationship, if Tywin had been a normal, good and loving father. Something went wrong.

The scene where he orders Cersei to marry again is painful to read. he really doesn't care about her opinion. There is no room for any discussion at all. Even though I dislike Cersei I felt sorry for her. And made me believe her own description of her situation even more. "while I was to be sold to some stranger like a horse, to be ridden whenever my new owner liked, beaten whenever he liked, and cast aside in time for a younger filly."

Apparently Tywin hates Tyrion the most, but even with Tyrion he had a discussion, when it came to him marring Sansa. He really tried hard to persuade him, while with Cersei he didn't even put in that effort. As if to say: You are a daughter. Your opinion doesn't matter. You do as I say.

 

[Nagini's Neville]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

It's just Varys  picking things he doesn't like about Jaime and labeling them as psychotic, and i really dislike Jaime so this is irritating.

It's irritating that you have to argue in favor of Jaime?  Ik the feeling lol-with other characters of course

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, TsarGrey said:

The growth of Tyrion's character and satisfaction for Jaime are both irrelevant to the point. Jaime was able to do a nice thing for his brother, and he did it.

I never doubted that it was nice of him to free Tyrion. I just pointed out that he did do it for himself, not so much for Tyrion. Which is made clear by the debt stuff. If I owe you a debt, I can get even with you and might try to do so. But if I don't owe you a debt I don't have to. What would have Jaime done if he hadn't felt indebted to Tyrion?

If the author creates a character whose is driven by a desire to pay a debt than paying this debt is his motivation, not (unconditional) sibling love. Jaime didn't save Tyrion because he was his brother and he loved him. He did it, because he felt indebted to him.

5 hours ago, TsarGrey said:

I think there may well be people who would ask: "Do I want to hear this?" People who would say: "Wait, do not tell me after all."

Sure, but Jaime must have known that Tyrion wasn't that kind of person. He is his brother, after all.

5 hours ago, TsarGrey said:

The evidence is either false or circumstantial, and Cersei is wrong. Tyrion is not guilty and we all know it.

Sorry, the author did a great job to establish that Cersei is justified in believing Tyrion murdered her son. Just as he did a great job at putting Joff and Tyrion against each other again and again.

What we know is irrelevant to the knowledge and beliefs of the characters. And there it is actually rather odd that Jaime does not seem to be convinced Tyrion murdered his son.

5 hours ago, TsarGrey said:

Anyhow, the Targs and Starks are not above Jaime. The Doctrine of Exceptionalism is based on raw power in it's root. Eddard did not know the truth about Aerys' wildfire plot and made his judgement hastily.

The point is not who is above whom, the point is that Jaime thinks they are not above him, that nobody is above him. In essence, he has lives the worst Targaryen traits - sibling incest and megalomania.

5 hours ago, TsarGrey said:

People are different, and think and act in different ways. You are judging him for being calm and rational and having grit to get his hands dirty. I actually... respect those traits.

As for child murderers, it's one thing to be capable of something and another to go through with it. I touched on my personal opinion on the matter in my first post in this thread.

The crucial things are, of course, the actual deeds. But Jaime's thoughts underline and expand on his worst deeds which we saw long before we were in his head.

5 hours ago, TsarGrey said:

Those murders are not on Jaime. And no, he has yet to turn himself in, despite the guilt he feels. Shae and Tywin are dead, he can't pay anything to them. I do not remember an instance where he recognizes any debt to Cersei for freeing Tyrion... but he does seem inclined to kill Varys.

In my opinion that just shows that he is an hypocritical prick.

5 hours ago, TsarGrey said:

Thanks for your thoughts.

Would you recommend those books? And if yes, would you care to share their names and authors?

Well, they are in German:

https://www.amazon.de/Psychopathinnen-Die-Psychologie-weiblichen-Bösen/dp/3431039960/ref=sr_1_6?__mk_de_DE=ÅMÅŽÕÑ&dchild=1&keywords=Lydia+Benecke+english&qid=1588466110&s=books&sr=1-6

https://www.amazon.de/Auf-dünnem-Eis-Psychologie-Bösen/dp/340460900X/ref=sr_1_1?__mk_de_DE=ÅMÅŽÕÑ&dchild=1&keywords=Lydia+Benecke&qid=1588466149&sr=8-1

by this lovely lady:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia_Benecke

5 hours ago, TsarGrey said:

Brienne kept Jaime in chains, denied him weapons and forbade him to speak, though did not enforce that last one. Yes, she was his captor. Her protection of him is as nice as it's irrelevant.

That isn't the context in the scene in question. She risked her life to save Jaime from being recaptued and possibly killed by the Tully men. She threw a rock crushing the boat of the men who followed them, and then she swam back to Jaime and Cleos. Despite all that, Jaime still considered to crush her head with an oar. I say that shows what kind of man he is. But you don't have to agree with me.

5 hours ago, TsarGrey said:

Ned and Jaime are indeed different people with different styles. Off top of my head, Jaime is a champion and one of the great, if not the greatest, swordsmen of his generation, and an inspiring commander who leads by the example from the front. Fighting is fun, especially if you're good at it. I would say it's the adrenaline. That does not yet, in my opinion, make Jaime sadistic or necessarily even cruel. I make the difference between enjoying the contest, challenge and danger and enjoying the pain of the others for the sake of it. I would also think that Ned led from the front, and may have gotten to the melee, but if we believe Sansa, he never liked killing.

Ned doesn't lead from the front and is only an average fighter. To our knowledge, he also never rode in a tourney or melee of note.

The difference seems glaring enough for me. There are men like Jaime who can kill innocent children as easily as they can kill their enemies in battle ... and there are other people who cannot do that. It is quite clear that Sandor Clegane's rants about knights being thugs are supposed to be seen as not exactly accurate. There are knights who are thugs, but there are also some good knights.

5 hours ago, TsarGrey said:

I question it.

Yes, Jaime cannot guarantee Tyrion left. But if Cersei knew Jaime freed Tyrion - and also why he did that - she certainly could be less obsessed with him and might actually be less obsessed with whoever freed Tyrion ... because she would know who did it and why.

5 hours ago, TsarGrey said:

I do not really justify revenge, but Cersei's issues with the Tyrells are indeed at least partially justified.

Revenge is a common concept in the world of Westeros. Nobility live to avenge the stains their honor suffered, etc. That is the whole starting point of the War of the Five Kings.

5 hours ago, TsarGrey said:

Cersei ceased the payments to the Iron Bank and got them to support Stannis without any of that. Do you not think there could happen something unforeseen if she thought that Tyrion could possibly be, say, sitting in the Sealord's table?

If she had reason to believe he was actually there, yes. On a mere mad speculation/rumor, no. Braavos isn't a state you provoke on a mere rumor.

5 hours ago, TsarGrey said:

I'd say that carefully choosing when and how to commit possibly explosive actions is a sign of wisdom. But I see and appreciate your point. Jaime can indeed be fairly criticized for failing to consistently take responsibility for everything he does. Whether or not he is justified by the right of self-preservation in this particular instance I'm not at the moment interested in tackling.

It is just an example. I'm about tendencies and charactere here, not whether or not a particular action is all that bad.

Jaime's entire life seems to be a series of actions he never took responsibility for.

5 hours ago, TsarGrey said:

When he rejects Tywin's offer? I disagree. Shouldering the responsibility is what makes people grow adults. Jaime in that instance is choosing to honor his duty as the Lord Commander of the KG. It's not the duty which Tywin and Cersei want him to honor, but what of that? It's Tywin who is going against the grain there, wanting to continue exploit the breach of tradition made by Joffrey and (maybe) Cersei, offering to bribe the High Septon to annul Jaime's vows.

The precedents we have could actually have enabled Tywin to dismiss Jaime from the KG against his will - as Barristan Selmy and Boros Blount were. Jaime must know this ... he wanted to spit in his father's face by insisting he was a Kingsguard and nothing more. This is not a moment of empowerment but of childish defiance. Jaime doesn't really want to be a KG. He joined the order to fuck his sister.

5 hours ago, TsarGrey said:

I seem to recall some talk about Tywin telling Jaime to not worry about Robb, but I cannot make a case and so do not press the point.

That was Tyrion, not Jaime. Tywin talked to him before the Battle of the Green Fork.

5 hours ago, TsarGrey said:

Not really. I think I did for a moment when you pointed it out, but it seems to have escaped me.

Jaime idealizes Dayne and looks up to him. That does not mean that I should care about Dayne's opinion, especially when he did not know the full truth any more than Ned did.

Do you see his shame? Do you not think that admitting a wrong is a step toward righting things? You cannot have a redemption arc if you do not first fall low. Jaime is entirely correct to contrast himself with Dayne. It makes him aspire for better.

Jaime may be the only person in the entire Westeros who actually cares about the state of the KG and is also in position to do something about it. He carries on the tradition of the Targaryen days. He has the spine to stand up to his father and sister who use the KG for their dirty work. He tries to instill some control on his brothers. (ASoS, Jaime VIII.)

But Jaime's KG won't go anywhere. It is doomed and without him and Aegon is not going to keep the any of the scum from the usurping dynasty. They will be killed in battle, executed, or end up at the Wall. There is no future for that particular insitution, just as there is no future for Tommen or Myrcella (in no small part thanks to Jaime).

I don't think Jaime has a redemption arc as such. It seems to me he is a character who tries to change for right or wrong reasons but who can only make things worse no matter what he does.

I mean, think about the Riverrun situation. What do we think is going to happen to Emmon and Genna thanks to Jaime? They will be brutally killed, most likely with Jaime being either forced to watch while they hang or drown or disembowel his aunt and uncle, or him being forced to participate in it. The only way he can hope to save his life now would be to sell out Genna and Emmon (and likely his children, too, because Catelyn will likely force him to publicly condemn the incest abominations he fathered in the next step to destroy House Lannister).

Jaime will soon have no family, no children, and no Kingsguard he could do something for. If he Catelyn lets him live, he might up in Aegon's camp which could make him another Kingmaker like Criston Cole, drowning the Realm in even more blood when Dany comes and the dragons dance. Getting over all his Rhaegar guilt by joining with a fake Targaryen would be very fitting for Jaime.

5 hours ago, TsarGrey said:

  Reveal hidden contents

"Ser Meryn." Jaime smiled at the sour knight with the rust-red hair and the pouches under his eyes. "I have heard it said that Joffrey made use of you to chastise Sansa Stark." He turned the White Book around one-handed. "Here, show me where it is in our vows that we swear to beat women and children."

I don't necessarily agree, but that's irrelevant. In my opinion, what's important in those quotes is not what Genna tells to Jaime, but what our author may have put in there for the reader. The point is the correlation between Kevan and Jaime. Kevan said he was tired, Jaime was tired when he rejected Tywin's offer. Kevan was dutiful, therefore Jaime is dutiful if there's some Kevan in him.

But she is wrong in her assessment there. She thinks being like Kevan drove Jaime to join the KG but we know he was thinking with his cock. What Jaime was about was Cersei and glory, not duty and service. Not to mention the utter stupidity of that, joining the KG of a man who was already known as the Mad King by then. If you join the immediate service of that fellow after Duskendale you really have no right to feel sorry for yourself or complain when you have to observe atrocities...

Nobody forced him to join the KG.

5 hours ago, TsarGrey said:

Jaime sure is jealous, but I disagree. Brienne has reminded Jaime of the ideal of knighthood. He has changed. (ASoS, Jaime VII.)

Yes, but that's because Brienne reminds him of himself, of what he wanted to be, not because he cares about her. He needed a weirwood dream sent by Bloodraven to save Brienne's life, their time together didn't cause him to change enough to save her for his own reasons.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The thought of murdering Bran isn't the issue ... the point is doing the deed. Even Cersei understood that this was madness and cruelty. She rightfully scolded Jaime for saving Bran before trying to kill him. He wanted to murder the child. A less rotten character would have allowed the boy to fall. But Jaime had to save him first so he could kill him afterwards

Fair enough. The saving first was rather disturbing. I don't remember her scolding him about that though. I remember her saying something like "you just had to have me" which is a cop out & only said to blame him for the consequences of their actions. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Most normal people would likely also not fuck a sister who is married to a king who they serve as sworn bodyguard and father three children on said sister.

I never argued he was normal. But he isn't any less normal that Cersei, whom you seem to defend. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If you want to put yourself in Jaime's shoes do it all the way. Ask yourself if you are as stupid as to do shit like that.

It is perfectly reasonable to agree with some of his actions & disagree with others. I can defend some actions while also disagreeing with others. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

One can understand the desire to kill Bran, but if your anthropology is that most people would act like the shithead Jaime Lannister in a similar situation then we really cannot talk with each other. Because in my world decent people simply don't do such things. They might think about it, for a moment or two, but decent people, normal people wouldn't go through with it

I'm not saying everyone would have pushed Bran, most people wouldn't be in that situation to begin with but put the lives of your children against the life of a child you barely know & think what you will but you are deluding yourself if you believe there aren't a high number of people that would pick their own children's lives over the life of another child, even a completely innocent one. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And if you think about then this is ridiculous. It is like pretending it is a rational choice for a criminal to kill or silence any person who may be privy to your crimes. That's not something that even all the worst criminals do. Sometimes one could also confess one's crimes and hope/plea for mercy

That's not the same. He didn't push Bran because he was caught committing a crime, he pushed Bran because this crime could cost him his life, Cersei's life, & the lives of all 3 children. I suppose you can argue Jaime & Cersei did it knowing what would happen if they got caught (I disagree they deserve to die for it) but their children did nothing. 

Pushing Bran is terrible. Allowing his own children to die for a crime he & Cersei committed would be horrible as well. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Jaime wasn't forced to murder Bran to silence him. As Cersei points out, there were other means to silence him. They could have explained what had been going as them as something twin siblings do occasionally, and they could have spend the rest of the day with him talking to him about many other things, confusing his memory about what he overheard (like Arya failed to remember accurately what she heard in the tunnels). Not to mention that the queen could have invited Bran to ride in her wheelhouse throughout the journey to KL, to live with Tommen in Maegor's Holdfast, or something along those lines ... while Jaime could have promised Bran to take him on as a squire and do everything in his power so he would join the Kingsguard one day. It is not that difficult to bribe a child. And Bran was only seven years old. Even if he had told something to someone chances are that they could have discredited what he said easily enough.

Where/when does Cersei suggest all of this?

The fact remains that alive there is always the chance that Bran tells what he saw regardless of what Jaime & Cersei do. I'm not saying it's right. The attempted murder of a child is never right. I'm saying there are extenuating circumstances that make this a little more understandable than what you are portraying here. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Instead, Jaime's behavior - and the rationale of people defending Jaime there - shows that you think of murder as an easy and justified way of solving a problem you might have. That is the attitude of a murderer. And the very same attitude I criticize in Arya murdering that guardsman at Harrenhal. It is not justified to murder people just because they know stuff that might be dangerous for you or simply because they stand in your way

If you believe that is what is being argued here I suggest you read more closely. 

I've not justified anything. I'm providing an explanation of sorts. If that reads like a justification to you, perhaps Jaime isn't as horrendous as you think. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

don't think Jaime and Cersei would have gotten alive out of the twincest thing (although you never know with a man like Robert), but they certainly should have been able to prevent Robert from murdering the children

How could they guarantee the safety of the children without silencing Bran? 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

could also just mean that Jaime and Cersei are just fucked-up people. George is not exactly very modern with most of his 'evil people' thing. Some of his abusers/criminals like Littlefinger and Sandor and Arya suffer severe traumas/humiliations helping to explain how they became what they are. And we get a lot of other such stuff with the broken men thing, etc. But there are others who are just evil for the sake of being evil

Sure, anything's possible but 2 of them from the same family is indicative of what I said. Doesn't mean it's 100% certain.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Not in a world where you are trained to obey your king without question. And certainly not men who sworn the vow of a Kingsguard. But killing Aerys II isn't really Jaime's worst crime. It is still a crime and outright murder (and, like any murder, should have resulted in his immediate execution) but I'd argue that him cuckolding Robert is nearly as worse, especially in light of the fact that Robert pardoned this prick and allowed him to remain in his Kingsguard. How ungrateful a shit is Jaime Lannister, truly?

That only shows Jaime isn't as easily brain washed into following these rules without question as other people are. Vows or not it would make him a worse person to have stood by & allowed Aerys to carry out his plans. 

I don't have much sympathy for Robert tbh. Robert was sleeping with other people as well & it would have been Cersei who helped Robert believe the children are his. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

As long as we have no reason to assume that Jaime was abused or anything we should assume he wasn't.

We do have some reason though. He was made to participate in orchestrating the gang rape of Tysha. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Else I say our default take on characters should be to invent excuses why Gregor, Ramsy, Roose, Euron, Victarion, etc. are nice people who do what they do simply because they were allegedly abused in their childhood.

I've not, one time, suggested Jaime is a nice person who only does what he does because of an abusive childhood nor have I invented any excuses so I don't know what your point is there. 

I've given reasons, explanations, for some of his actions out side of believing Jaime is just a "hypocritical prick" who cares nothing about anyone but himself. There is a middle ground here & you're missing it. 

 

[frenin]

11 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Pushing Bran is terrible. Allowing his own children to die for a crime he & Cersei committed would be horrible as well. 

Jaime was not thinking in the children he barely acknowledge, i never understood Martin's explanation there, if he wanted to portray that Jaime did care about them, that's fine, but that's not the Jaime he present. Jaime in AGOT didn't care about his children,hell he's starting to care now, so the children excuse only seems made to make Jaime more palatable when Martin started to consider transforming from the twice kingslayer he was destined to be in AGOT to the ¿antihero? many consider them now. But things like Jaime saying that he would rather his swordhand than his firstborn made that statement very doubtful and it's better say than  Jaime tried to kill a child because his own children's life was at stake than Jaime tried to kill a child so he could keep fucking Cersei inadvertent. 

 

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The precedents we have could actually have enabled Tywin to dismiss Jaime from the KG against his will - as Barristan Selmy and Boros Blount were. Jaime must know this ... he wanted to spit in his father's face by insisting he was a Kingsguard and nothing more. This is not a moment of empowerment but of childish defiance. Jaime doesn't really want to be a KG. He joined the order to fuck his sister.

He doesn't really know what he wants then but he knows that he does not want to be manipulated more and he wants to be the master of his destiny, call it what you will, it's a valid reason. And he does care about the KG, he didn't care about banging Cersei in front of Joffy's corpse, he refused Cersei when she tried to do it in the tower of the lord commander.

 

 

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Ned doesn't lead from the front and is only an average fighter. To our knowledge, he also never rode in a tourney or melee of note.

He does, Robb copies Ned in almost everything and we're told that Robb's decision to lead from the front and fight wherever the fight is the thickest is because Ned used to do it.

 

 

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Ned doesn't lead from the front and is only an average fighter. To our knowledge, he also never rode in a tourney or melee of note.

It's accurate, as always Sandor words are just a hyperbole, most of the knights are indeed thugs, especially the knights of the KG. who are just glorified ones.

 

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sorry, the author did a great job to establish that Cersei is justified in believing Tyrion murdered her son. Just as he did a great job at putting Joff and Tyrion against each other again and again.

Did he?? There is only very circumstantial stuff fueled by her own paranoia.

 

Quote

Revenge is a common concept in the world of Westeros. Nobility live to avenge the stains their honor suffered, etc. That is the whole starting point of the War of the Five Kings.

Her power and her children lives entirely depend on the Tyrells, avenging herself, especially when she knows nothing at all, is the silliest of choices. Only toppled by her pushing her own source of power to the Tyrells.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

4 hours ago, frenin said:

Jaime was not thinking in the children he barely acknowledge, i never understood Martin's explanation there, if he wanted to portray that Jaime did care about them, that's fine, but that's not the Jaime he present. Jaime in AGOT didn't care about his children,hell he's starting to care now, so the children excuse only seems made to make Jaime more palatable when Martin started to consider transforming from the twice kingslayer he was destined to be in AGOT to the ¿antihero? many consider them now. But things like Jaime saying that he would rather his swordhand than his firstborn made that statement very doubtful and it's better say than  Jaime tried to kill a child because his own children's life was at stake than Jaime tried to kill a child so he could keep fucking Cersei inadvertent. 

I don't think we know Jaime never cared about them. We know he didn't think of them as his children & possibly that he didn't care much for Joff. 

Either way though Bran telling is a very real threat to the children's life. 

I do see what you are saying but we don't have Jaime's POV there to say for certain & GRRM presents that as a motive. 

[frenin]

17 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't think we know Jaime never cared about them. We know he didn't think of them as his children & possibly that he didn't care much for Joff. 

We don't know if Jaime  never cared about them, we know that Jaime does not care about in AGOT. 

 

17 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Either way though Bran telling is a very real threat to the children's life. 

It is a threat to the children's life but Jaime was not thinking about the children's life, he was only thinking about him and Cersei and them being able to keep banging.

However the children being in danger is an overall far greater extenuating than Jaime tried to kill a 7 year so him and Cersei could keep fucking. One presents him as a person, who among us would not do anything to protect our love ones, the other presents him as an absolute selfish monster. Is hard to like an absolute selfish monster... 

17 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I do see what you are saying but we don't have Jaime's POV there to say for certain & GRRM presents that as a motive. 

We do have Jaime's pov to see how much and what a priority were his children for him, he only starts caring about them when he is maimed because he tries to become a better person... And not tyring to even acknowledge or being close to the kids is a piss poor start. Pre maimed Jaime only thought about his children is that he can marry Joffrey to Myrce as a big fuck you tp the 7k, so they learn once and for that as the Targs, the Lannisters were above gods and men. So it was basically a me me me even then.

When he recalls whay he did what he did, fear for his children is simply not then.

I would not complain if Martin showed pre maimed giving a damn about the kids, he certainly does not show that, he shows the opposite, so him saying thatis just an attempt for readers that start to like Jaime to surround that impossible hurdle. That's a very bad retconning.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 minutes ago, frenin said:

We don't know if Jaime  never cared about them, we know that Jaime does not care about in AGOT. 

How do we know that? 

3 minutes ago, frenin said:

It is a threat to the children's life but Jaime was not thinking about the children's life, he was only thinking about him and Cersei and them being able to keep banging.

I think this is an assumption. I could be wrong but I don't recall this in the text. 

5 minutes ago, frenin said:

However the children being in danger is an overall far greater excextuanting than Jaime tried to kill a 7 year so him and Cersei could keep fucking. One presents him as a person, who among us would not do anything to protect our love ones, the other presents him as an absolute selfish monster. Is hard to like an absolute selfish monster

The thing is though even if it's only to save his own & Cersei's life, that doesn't make him a selfish monster. Most everyone wants to live & would do things to keep themselves from being killed. 

10 minutes ago, frenin said:

We do have Jaime's pov to see how much and what a priority were his children for him, he only starts caring about them when he is maimed because he tries to become a better person... And not tyring to even acknowledge or being close to the kids is a piss poor start. Pre maimed Jaime only thought about his children is that he can marry Joffrey to Myrce as a big fuck you tp the 7k, so they learn once and for that as the Targs, the Lannisters were above gods and men. So it was basically a me me me even then.

I agree they weren't a priority in the sense that most people's children would be but again, this is a very different circumstances. He hasn't been allowed to 'father' the kids even if he wanted to & there is a far cry from them not being his priority & not caring if they are murdered. 

12 minutes ago, frenin said:

When he recalls whay he did what he did, fear for his children is simply not then

Does he think that it was only to be able to keep sleeping with his sister? I just can't think of the passage/s you are referring to. 

13 minutes ago, frenin said:

would not complain if Martin showed pre maimed giving a damn about the kids, he certainly does not show that, he shows the opposite, so him saying thatis just an attempt for readers that start to like Jaime to surround that impossible hurdle. That's a very bad retconning

I don't remember him implying how he felt about the children prior to his maiming at all. I know he thinks something a long the lines of if he were doing it again he would be close to the kids or something like that but that doesn't mean he didn't care at all about them before this. 

[Ivan Tsarevich]

First, thanks for @frenin as this post reminded me of a couple of things I had momentarily forgotten...

- - -

20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I never doubted that it was nice of him to free Tyrion. I just pointed out that he did do it for himself, not so much for Tyrion. Which is made clear by the debt stuff. If I owe you a debt, I can get even with you and might try to do so. But if I don't owe you a debt I don't have to. What would have Jaime done if he hadn't felt indebted to Tyrion?

If the author creates a character whose is driven by a desire to pay a debt than paying this debt is his motivation, not (unconditional) sibling love. Jaime didn't save Tyrion because he was his brother and he loved him. He did it, because he felt indebted to him.

Debts are (obviously) a recurring motif with the Lannisters and Jaime clearly cares for them. I actually agree that Jaime might not have freed Tyrion if not for that debt (though I don't necessarily put it past him either). But I also think that having that motive does not shut off other simultaneous motives (is not a motivation the sum of motives?). I think we can attribute Jaime empathy for others, if we just read between the lines. That however is just an interpretation, beauty in the eye of the beholder.

20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, but Jaime must have known that Tyrion wasn't that kind of person. He is his brother, after all.

If Jaime guessed that Tyrion would want to know, all the more reason to tell him.

20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sorry, the author did a great job to establish that Cersei is justified in believing Tyrion murdered her son. Just as he did a great job at putting Joff and Tyrion against each other again and again.

What we know is irrelevant to the knowledge and beliefs of the characters. And there it is actually rather odd that Jaime does not seem to be convinced Tyrion murdered his son.

I'd expect you to be more well versed on the subject of Cersei than I'm, so no argument. And yes, Tyrion looks guilty.

As for Jaime, he thinks it's out of character for Tyrion and rightly dismisses the evidence out of hand. (ASoS, Jaime VII.)

Spoiler

Could my brother truly have killed the boy? Jaime found that hard to believe.

Spoiler

"Cersei claims that Tyrion did it."

"Your brother served the king the poisoned wine, with a thousand people looking on."

"That was rather foolish of him."

Spoiler

Evidence. In this city of liars, Jaime knew what sort of evidence would be found.

20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The point is not who is above whom, the point is that Jaime thinks they are not above him, that nobody is above him. In essence, he has lives the worst Targaryen traits - sibling incest and megalomania.

I take it that you are indeed talking of the HH baths. Jaime in that scene is not himself. And the man is letting out many years worth of pent frustration of being looked down upon. Thinking him as a megalomaniac may be an interesting take, but I'm not convinced. (ASoS, Jaime V.)

Spoiler

To save the realm. "Did you know that my brother set the Blackwater Rush afire? Wildfire will burn on water. Aerys would have bathed in it if he'd dared. The Targaryens were all mad for fire." Jaime felt light-headed. It is the heat in here, the poison in my blood, the last of my fever. I am not myself. He eased himself down until the water reached his chin. "Soiled my white cloak . . . I wore my gold armor that day, but . . ."

20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, they are in German:

https://www.amazon.de/Psychopathinnen-Die-Psychologie-weiblichen-Bösen/dp/3431039960/ref=sr_1_6?__mk_de_DE=ÅMÅŽÕÑ&dchild=1&keywords=Lydia+Benecke+english&qid=1588466110&s=books&sr=1-6

https://www.amazon.de/Auf-dünnem-Eis-Psychologie-Bösen/dp/340460900X/ref=sr_1_1?__mk_de_DE=ÅMÅŽÕÑ&dchild=1&keywords=Lydia+Benecke&qid=1588466149&sr=8-1

by this lovely lady:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia_Benecke

Well, can't read them, but thanks for the trouble. There might be translations should I be interested.

20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Ned doesn't lead from the front and is only an average fighter. To our knowledge, he also never rode in a tourney or melee of note.

The difference seems glaring enough for me. There are men like Jaime who can kill innocent children as easily as they can kill their enemies in battle ... and there are other people who cannot do that. It is quite clear that Sandor Clegane's rants about knights being thugs are supposed to be seen as not exactly accurate. There are knights who are thugs, but there are also some good knights.

Ned rode to Aerys' throne room in front of his men and according to Cat always took the more dangerous task. (AGoT, Catelyn VIII.)

Spoiler

She was impressed despite herself. He looks like a Tully, she thought, yet he's still his father's son, and Ned taught him well. "Which force would you command?"

"The horse," he answered at once. Again like his father; Ned would always take the more dangerous task himself.

Should you have contradicting information, I'd be glad to hear it. I have some interest in that stuff. I knew Ned was average with sword, and that might play a part in why he doesn't like it. And no, I certainly don't argue that Ned would not be more empathetic and receptive of the pain and suffering of the others than Jaime is. But world is a bit too large for the heart of a one person. It's fine to put a sock in it, to not always care.

20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If she had reason to believe he was actually there, yes. On a mere mad speculation/rumor, no. Braavos isn't a state you provoke on a mere rumor.

I see, but wouldn't myself put it past Cersei to try something.

20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The precedents we have could actually have enabled Tywin to dismiss Jaime from the KG against his will - as Barristan Selmy and Boros Blount were. Jaime must know this ... he wanted to spit in his father's face by insisting he was a Kingsguard and nothing more. This is not a moment of empowerment but of childish defiance. Jaime doesn't really want to be a KG. He joined the order to fuck his sister.

The thing is that he does not want to use that loophole out of his vows, he wants to keep them. He himself speaks of the older contradicting precedent in that scene. And Jaime shows respect for the KG traditions not only in this instance, but also in the KG meeting. See his opinion of Cersei stripping the cloak from Blount. (ASoS, Jaime VIII.)

Spoiler

Ser Osmund Kettleblack laughed aloud and the Knight of Flowers smiled, but Ser Boros turned a deep beet red. "I am no food taster! I am a knight of the Kingsguard!"

"Sad to say, you are." Cersei should never have stripped the man of his white cloak. But their father had only compounded the shame by restoring it. "My sister has told me how readily you yielded my nephew to Tyrion's sellswords. You will find carrots and pease less threatening, I hope. When your Sworn Brothers are training in the yard with sword and shield, you may train with spoon and trencher. Tommen loves applecakes. Try not to let any sellswords make off with them."

20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That was Tyrion, not Jaime. Tywin talked to him before the Battle of the Green Fork.

That's not what I meant.

20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But Jaime's KG won't go anywhere. It is doomed and without him and Aegon is not going to keep the any of the scum from the usurping dynasty. They will be killed in battle, executed, or end up at the Wall. There is no future for that particular insitution, just as there is no future for Tommen or Myrcella (in no small part thanks to Jaime).

I don't think Jaime has a redemption arc as such. It seems to me he is a character who tries to change for right or wrong reasons but who can only make things worse no matter what he does.

I mean, think about the Riverrun situation. What do we think is going to happen to Emmon and Genna thanks to Jaime? They will be brutally killed, most likely with Jaime being either forced to watch while they hang or drown or disembowel his aunt and uncle, or him being forced to participate in it. The only way he can hope to save his life now would be to sell out Genna and Emmon (and likely his children, too, because Catelyn will likely force him to publicly condemn the incest abominations he fathered in the next step to destroy House Lannister).

Jaime will soon have no family, no children, and no Kingsguard he could do something for. If he Catelyn lets him live, he might up in Aegon's camp which could make him another Kingmaker like Criston Cole, drowning the Realm in even more blood when Dany comes and the dragons dance. Getting over all his Rhaegar guilt by joining with a fake Targaryen would be very fitting for Jaime.

Whether or not anything will survive of Jaime's KG has no relation whatsoever to his motives and efforts with it. The man can't see to the future.

Your take on him and his arc is actually interesting. Jaime Lannister the tragic (anti)hero!

His work ultimately being in vain I would again contrast with Kevan, who was trying to repair the damage to the great western alliance.

20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But she is wrong in her assessment there. She thinks being like Kevan drove Jaime to join the KG but we know he was thinking with his cock. What Jaime was about was Cersei and glory, not duty and service. Not to mention the utter stupidity of that, joining the KG of a man who was already known as the Mad King by then. If you join the immediate service of that fellow after Duskendale you really have no right to feel sorry for yourself or complain when you have to observe atrocities...

Nobody forced him to join the KG.

Yes, but even if Genna is mistaken herself she can still deliver message as a mouthpiece of the author, can she not? It doesn't matter at all why Jaime joined to the KG in the first place. I'm talking about why Jaime remained in the KG. That white cloak changes a man. (AFfC, Cersei III.)

Spoiler

"He would not have been my choice, I'll grant you. No one troubled to consult me. Loras will do well enough, I think. Once a man puts on that cloak, it changes him."

"It certainly changed you, and not for the better."

20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Yes, but that's because Brienne reminds him of himself, of what he wanted to be, not because he cares about her. He needed a weirwood dream sent by Bloodraven to save Brienne's life, their time together didn't cause him to change enough to save her for his own reasons.

Jaime trusts Brienne, enough to follow her away from his entourage and entrust her with the mission to search Sansa anyway. He is impressed with her and respects her. You are indeed correct that his reason to turn around to get her was that dream. She is his guidelight and path to the better. He saves Brienne to save himself. That (saving oneself) in my opinion is not wrong. I can follow if you fault him for not being altruistic enough, but their relationship is growing like relationships do. She goes from his (well-intentioned) captor to his trusted companion.

The unquoted parts I have no argument with.