For Jaime/Hound supporters: Would your attitude towards the Hound/Jaime change, if Mycah/Bran had been a girl?

[kissdbyfire]

53 minutes ago, frenin said:

Loving father??  Tywin is solely yhinking on himself when he makes that offer, why shouldn't Jaime decide the same?? He doesn 't want to be manipulated more and he is making sure of that.

 

Tywin Lannister, father of the year decade century millennium!!!!! Holy fucking smokes, I had my coke (cola) coming out of my nose and all over the tablet! Priceless, @Lord Varys, just priceless!

  

[Mystical]

What does the sex of the child matter? Both were innocent children. Killing a child with intend (not to be confused with accidental killing) is unforgivable to me.

[Dot Com]

1 hour ago, Elegant Woes said:

Sandor barely has any idea who Sansa is as a person. 

This actually raises an interesting question. Who does know who Sansa truly is as a person? Correct me if I'm wrong here, because it's been a while since I've reread, but the only person I can recall praising Sansa for her intelligence is ... Littlefinger. Even her own father seems to have a lot of misconceptions about her. 

[Nagini's Neville]

9 minutes ago, Mystical said:

What does the sex of the child matter? Both were innocent children. Killing a child with intend (not to be confused with accidental killing) is unforgivable to me.

Honestly, this thread was a stupid idea. I wish I could take it back lol. Sometime I get ideas for hypotheses and then forget, that asking everyone about it, presenting them with the hypothesis won't give me the answer lol. I elaborated a bit in #34. and I agree with you.

Also as far as i know you already dislike Jaime and the Hound. And I assumed ppl, who already really dislike them already find the killing of Mycah and Bran completely unforgivable, therefore this question is irrelevant for them anyway.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

7 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it! I feel a bit stupid about it now tbh lol. Of course it wouldn't matter to people and even if it made a difference just asking probably wouldn't be the way to find out about. You would need two different large enough samples of subjects reading the same story, just with different genders for the victims and afterwards filling out a questionnaire about it. But of course you never do interesting studies like that while studying psych

No! Don't feel stupid. It's a fair question. 

7 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

The idea was born out of a conversation with my friend, who is btw the biggest Victarion fan there is - so he can't be trusted lol. We were talking about how GRRM said he gets letters from women, saying they have a romantic attraction to Jaime, the Hound and Theon.

He gave his very judgmental analysis about the people, who are attracted to Theon (he's a psych student lol) and then went on to say, that Sandor and Jaime would not be half as popular, if they had (tried to) killed a girl instead of a boy. That got me thinking, if there was truth to that

I think there may be some basis to that only being a child trumps being a male or female. I don't think it's unreasonable to wonder, had the victims been adults, if being women would make it different in the eyes of the readers & I think it would for some. 

7 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

knew for myself (at least consciously) it wouldn't make a difference- a child is a child, an innocent person, is an innocent person. During my first read I was already as afraid of the Hound as I could get lol- and a big part of that was of course, because he had killed Mycah. And when he told Sansa he had killed other children and women as well, I really saw no reason why he would be above hurting/killing Sansa

Yep me too. 

7 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

With Jaime I always felt it was absolutely clear why he pushed Bran and it wouldn't have mattered, who saw them, he would have pushed anyone, regardless the age or gender. The fact that he pushed a boy instead of a girl wasn't the thing that made him more sympathetic to me, as if it had been otherwise, but the reason why he did it. Because even though it's in the end inexcusable and one of the worst thing to do tbh I wouldn't be 100% sure, what I would be capable of to save the people I love the most. Hopefully I never find out. And I feel like I have a general rule, that a child should never be harmed for the well-being of an adult, no matter who that adult is. Ahh, I really hate(love) asoif for all of the moral dilemmas.

Haha yes! Agreed. 

7 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I'm so glad, that I wasn't the only one  I think he was scary as f and knowing about his traumatic past didn't really change that for me, just gave a reason

Right, not at all. His traumatic past only made me more worried that he would snap & kill her. 

[Nagini's Neville]

The Hound is an asshole to both Sansa and Arya. That doesn't mean, that he doesn't understand/know, who they are as people. IMO he has a good understanding of both of them.

I think LF definitely sees potential in Sansa. But then he has also this nasty habit of seeing her as a pawn for him to use in the game and as his "teenage fantasy returned again"  I do think, that he is not completely off about, who Sansa is as a person, but he might underestimate her in the long run or just doesn't know himself and his weaknesses well enough and in the end I don't think he is someone, who really cares for others. I don't think he cares for Sansa as a person.

Tyrion was pretty on point with some of his observations about Sansa. They just never managed to communicate honestly with one another. It was a missed connection. And Tyrion projected a lot of his own issues onto Sansa. Sandor did that as well. 

IMO Ned didn't know Sansa that well anymore. Which I don't think is necessarily so weird for a parent. It's probably quite likely you see your children through rose-colored glasses and also fail to recognize they are changing and growing up.

Maybe Jeyne, Cat and Septa M knew her best, maybe Arya as well, even though she didn't like her.

[Nagini's Neville]

10 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Right, not at all. His traumatic past only made me more worried that he would snap & kill her. 

OMG yes! Not out of evilness, but because he's nuts lol (at times)

[Elegant Woes]

42 minutes ago, Dot Com said:

This actually raises an interesting question. Who does know who Sansa truly is as a person? Correct me if I'm wrong here, because it's been a while since I've reread, but the only person I can recall praising Sansa for her intelligence is ... Littlefinger. Even her own father seems to have a lot of misconceptions about her. 

On top of my head the only characters who compliment Sansa on her intelligence are Dontos (he calls her clever jonquil) and Littlefinger. Tyrion is a mixed bag - he called her both smart and stupid on different occasions (wtf?). Majority of the people who she interacts with in King's Landing called her stupid and Sansa is clearly upset by it. I think that is why she kind of likes Littlefinger's attention. He's the only one who seems to validate her beyond looks. Obviously he's doing it for duplicitous reasons but hey beggars can't be choosers. I agree with Nagini's Neville on this. The POV characters who seem to understand Sansa the most are Arya and Catelyn. Jon also has pretty good understanding of her. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

19 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

OMG yes! Not out of evilness, but because he's nuts lol (at times)

Haha! Yes! 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Tywin Lannister, father of the year decade century millennium!!!!! Holy fucking smokes, I had my coke (cola) coming out of my nose and all over the tablet! Priceless, @Lord Varys, just priceless!

  

What else could that spoiled little brat Jaime Lannister want? Tywin wanted to give him the Rock and a proper wife that wasn't his sister who he chose to fuck without having suffered any abuse before at the ridiculously sick age of six years.

Tywin isn't a great father emotionally ... but so what? Jaime is also a poor excuse for a son. Still, Tywin did all he did for Jaime and Cersei. Jaime was to be a great knight and a great lord, and Cersei the queen.

Tywin humiliates and tortures Tyrion throughout his life ... but he never terrorized Jaime or Cersei in the same manner. They never got any ugly lessons, did they? They were expected to behave like proper nobility, i.e. do marry whoever their father chooses for them. Tywin isn't any different there than essentially any other lord. In fact, he is nicer than Hoster who aborted his unborn grandchild against the wishes of his daughter and forced Lysa and Cat into marriage neither of them wanted ... but Cersei Tywin prepared for her role as Rhaegar's wife and she wanted that for herself. He also seems to have given Jaime a voice in the Tully match considering he sent the boy there to spend time with Lysa rather than deciding they should marry without ever meeting/getting to know each other.

Jaime and Cersei were the pampered golden twins of the Rock. They got everything they ever wanted.

Can anyone explain to me what exactly Jaime's reason to stay on as Lord Commander of the Kingsguard? What is his reasoning? Why does he want to do that? It is never explained. The guy should have been happy that he could leave the order and go continue fuck Cersei or marry her as he also wants.

[Ivan Tsarevich]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The whole confession thing about Tysha is all about Jaime himself. Jaime has decided he would now be 'a good guy' and 'pay his debts' and thus he decides he would tell Tyrion the truth no matter what - regardless what that's going to do to Tyrion and his sanity.

See the quote below, as I believe you are factually wrong. But if you remember some countering evidence that I do not recall at the moment, do show it.

Also, while a case can be made that he should have spared Tyrion from hard truth to protect his sanity, does Jaime have any particular reason to believe that Tyrion would crack? And mind you, unless I'm mistaken, he doesn't. I would still call Tyrion fundamentally sane in ADwD.

Then again, I'm no psychologist.

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Well, he is certainly one to Tyrion since he always loved his little brother. Now, ofc Jaime shouldn't have told him the truth but Tyrion deserved the truth, not only for him but to know what kind of man his father truly was.

Tyrion's lesson was about that no one could love him without money being involved, that's a rather heavy burden.

I agree that Tyrion deserved the truth. I also think that is why Jaime was correct to bring the matter up. It was he who told that lie in the first place, it's on him to dispel it. (Tywin too, of course.) And as it happens, when he hesitates, it's Tyrion who finally demands to hear it, twice.

ASoS, Tyrion XI.

Spoiler

"Thank you, Brother," Tyrion said. "For my life."

"It was . . . a debt I owed you." Jaime's voice was strange.

"A debt?" He cocked his head. "I do not understand."

"Good. Some doors are best left closed."

"Oh, dear," said Tyrion. "Is there something grim and ugly behind it? Could it be that someone said something cruel about me once? I'll try not to weep. Tell me."

"Tyrion . . ."

Jaime is afraid. "Tell me," Tyrion said again.

His brother looked away. "Tysha," he said softly.

"Tysha?" His stomach tightened. "What of her?"

"She was no whore. I never bought her for you. That was a lie that Father commanded me to tell. Tysha was . . . she was what she seemed to be. A crofter's daughter, chance met on the road."

Tyrion could hear the faint sound of his own breath whistling hollowly through the scar of his nose. Jaime could not meet his eyes. Tysha. He tried to remember what she had looked like. A girl, she was only a girl, no older than Sansa. "My wife," he croaked. "She wed me."

"For your gold, Father said. She was lowborn, you were a Lannister of Casterly Rock. All she wanted was the gold, which made her no different from a whore, so . . . so it would not be a lie, not truly, and . . . he said that you required a sharp lesson. That you would learn from it, and thank me later . . ."

"Thank you?" Tyrion's voice was choked.

That's a grown man asking to hear the truth, himself suggesting that there may something ugly underneath, promising to not weep. Tyrion does realize that Jaime is afraid, and presses on. And as noted, he deserves it.

I rather think that if anything, Tyrion should have reconsidered his request.

[Hugorfonics]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I had my coke (cola) coming out of my nose

Lol, nice save

30 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Can anyone explain to me what exactly Jaime's reason to stay on as Lord Commander of the Kingsguard? What is his reasoning? Why does he want to do that? It is never explained. 

Sure it is

Quote

"I am tired of having highborn women kicking pails of shit at me, Father. No one ever asked me if I wanted to be Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, but it seems I am.

Jaimes tired of being a piece on a cyvesse board. He wants to be master of his own destiny, might as well work at the job he has

32 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The guy should have been happy that he could leave the order and go continue fuck Cersei or marry her as he also wants.

She wont have him, certainly not to wife

[frenin]

1 hour ago, TsarGrey said:

Then again, I'm no psychologist.

You don't really need to be to see that he is not a psycho.

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Tywin humiliates and tortures Tyrion throughout his life ... but he never terrorized Jaime or Cersei in the same manner. They never got any ugly lessons, did they?

Tywin forces Jaime into becoming an accomplice in his sharp lesson to Tyrion, It should be clear as day that Tyrion was not the only one that came out scarred of the incident.

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Tywin isn't any different there than essentially any other lord.

If the bar is Randyll Tarly...

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

he is nicer than Hoster who aborted his unborn grandchild against the wishes of his daughter and forced Lysa and Cat into marriage neither of them wanted ...

He really isn't, Hoster was forced to do that for Lysa's sake, and the marriages were war time deals.

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

but Cersei Tywin prepared for her role as Rhaegar's wife and she wanted that for herself.

Did he prepared her for Robert?? Tywin's prep was tell her that she will marry Rhaegar, the fact that she was into Rhaegar was a happy accident. he also would marry her to Viserys if needed be.

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

He also seems to have given Jaime a voice in the Tully match considering he sent the boy there to spend time with Lysa rather than deciding they should marry without ever meeting/getting to know each other.

That's not giving him a voice, the marriage was going to be done regardless of what Jaime wanted, and Jaime found Lysa boring as hell. 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Can anyone explain to me what exactly Jaime's reason to stay on as Lord Commander of the Kingsguard? What is his reasoning? Why does he want to do that? It is never explained. 

Jaime does not want to be a pawn and being a KG is in his mind a start of it instead of giving to his father's and sister's wishes.

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The guy should have been happy that he could leave the order

Why should he happy with a fate he does not want?? Albeit he does seem to resent lost it when he discovers that Cersei cheated on him.

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

and go continue fuck Cersei or marry her as he also wants.

Unlikely.

[kissdbyfire]

42 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

What else could that spoiled little brat Jaime Lannister want? Tywin wanted to give him the Rock and a proper wife that wasn't his sister who he chose to fuck without having suffered any abuse before at the ridiculously sick age of six years.

Bollocks. But hey, I never expected you to come out and say, “yeah, my mistake, Tywin can never ever in any universe EVER be called a “loving father”, b/c that’s not how you roll. And that’s fine. But seriously, it’s a joke. And whether you believe A or B or C about Jaime or Cersei or whoever doesn’t matter one bit. Because the second you start any argument w/ that utterly preposterous statement, the argument immediately turns into a joke.  

42 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Tywin isn't a great father emotionally ... but so what? Jaime is also a poor excuse for a son. Still, Tywin did all he did for Jaime and Cersei. Jaime was to be a great knight and a great lord, and Cersei the queen.

Tywin isn’t a great father emotionally? To each their own, I suppose. I’d say Tywin is a horrible and abusive father to all of his children. It’s no wonder all three are as fucked up as they are.

42 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Tywin humiliates and tortures Tyrion throughout his life ... but he never terrorized Jaime or Cersei in the same manner. They never got any ugly lessons, did they?

I can agree that Tyrion suffered the most at Tywin’s hands. But of course having that arsehole for a father will have affected Cersei and Jaime. He just wasn’t as blatantly abusive to the twins, as far as we know. 

42 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

They were expected to behave like proper nobility, i.e. do marry whoever their father chooses for them. Tywin isn't any different there than essentially any other lord. In fact, he is nicer than Hoster who aborted his unborn grandchild against the wishes of his daughter and forced Lysa and Cat into marriage neither of them wanted ... but Cersei Tywin prepared for her role as Rhaegar's wife and she wanted that for herself. He also seems to have given Jaime a voice in the Tully match considering he sent the boy there to spend time with Lysa rather than deciding they should marry without ever meeting/getting to know each other.

Again, I also think Hoster is another arsehole. Not in the same league of nastiness as Tywin, but an arsehole all the same. Cersei didn’t give two fucks about Rhaegar btw. She thought he was hot, and she wanted to be queen. That’s it. 

42 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Jaime and Cersei were the pampered golden twins of the Rock. They got everything they ever wanted.

Did they now?

42 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Can anyone explain to me what exactly Jaime's reason to stay on as Lord Commander of the Kingsguard? What is his reasoning? Why does he want to do that? It is never explained. The guy should have been happy that he could leave the order and go continue fuck Cersei or marry her as he also wants.

Why should anyone try? I mean, it’s all there in the text. You’ve read the same as everyone else. And yet you see somethings that aren’t there, and fails to see what is in plain view, crystal clear. Again, takes all kinds and all that. 

6 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Lol, nice save

When I read what I wrote before I added the “cola” I thought it could maybe cause people to raise their eyebrows.

[Back door hodor]

No it's horrible either way way. That being said, you cant have a redemption arc without first establishing that the people being redeemed were actually bad, and it's one thing to hear second hand and through years of rumors( especially in this series with its conflicting accounts and unreliable narrators) and another to see thier worst first hand, the readers needed to see it to buy into thier stories, I know Sandors happens offscreen and we just see the results, but the affect is, in my opinion, the same.

[Morte]

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

He doesn't mourn for his father,

He does, just in a way one mourns an estranged and cold parent who scarred you for life.

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And he ever tries to pass on his psychopathy to Tommen when he urges him to ignore/bury his suffering than using it as a strength and act on it. If you go away inside when you are the king you do the worst thing possible.

"Going away inside" is a victim's coping mechanism to prevent further and deeper traumata. It tells a lot that Jaime's life seems to be build on the foundation of a internalized coping mechanism: he doesn't feel too little empathy, but too much for the world he lives in.

He also doesn't tell Tommen to "make his heart steel" or some other shit like this, he just tells him a way how he can pretend to not be affected as much as he is.

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Cersei also loves her children very much

Sometimes "love" can be the worse thing a parent can do to their children. Cersei's love is just as healthy as the love Tywin had for his twins, maybe even worse.

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Jaime is neither a good father nor a good uncle

Now Jaime's bounding "problems" are actually very realistic, if you put into account how male do bound to their children on a biological level: He wasn't allowed to hold them or take care of them, nor even to spend too much time with them - and boom: no oxytocin, no bounding beyond a rational level (which he forbade himself, as they weren't technically "his" and Cersei insisted that he did)

6 hours ago, frenin said:

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Tywin isn't any different there than essentially any other lord.

If the bar is Randyll Tarly...

And here you see me riding to the defence of Randyll Tarly... 

No. Tywin and Hoster are both a lot worse than Tarly. If Tarly would have kept Tyrion after he was born, he would have beaten the shit out of him (and Jaime for letting it happen), and also most likely have Tysha killed or beaten and humilated and chased away. But he would never play a "rape-game" to teach his son a "lesson". Not because he is such a good father, but because for Tarly rape is not something a noble should do or encourage; we see this then while he does victim-blame Brienne for the bets on her virginity and the horrible things that can happen to her on the road, he still puts an end to the bet.

Worst dad of the century for me goes like this: Tywin (undisputed) > Hoster > (maybe, need more data) Tarly

9 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I had my coke (cola) coming out of my nose and all over the tablet!

Now imagine it would have been coke... THAT would be a mess! (*imitates noise of vacuum-cleaner*)

[Your Mummer]

Instinctively, I would dislike them more if a girl had been killed but both of them are on an arc where they go from complete shitheads to okay people, either way.The underlying problems both fellas have doesn't change regardless of who they killed or ordered killed and that is the more interesting side to them. 

[frenin]

2 hours ago, Morte said:

If Tarly would have kept Tyrion after he was born, he would have beaten the shit out of him (and Jaime for letting it happen), and also most likely have Tysha killed or beaten and humilated and chased away. But he would never play a "rape-game" to teach his son a "lesson". Not because he is such a good father, but because for Tarly rape is not something a noble should do or encourage; we see this then while he does victim-blame Brienne for the bets on her virginity and the horrible things that can happen to her on the road, he still puts an end to the bet.

Tarly's lessons were more caveman than the finesse of Tywin's rape game that's for sure but that does not make it better nor any less scarry than Tywin's.  

And no, Hoster is not a lot worst than Tarly, not even if he put all his efforts on it.

 

 

2 hours ago, Morte said:

Worst dad of the century for me goes like this: Tywin (undisputed) > Hoster > (maybe, need more data) Tarly

Hoster aborted Lysa's kid, which was done for her own good as much as for the fetus, and it was done because Lysa raped LF. Mistake?? More like a misguided. Horrible to the point of considering him a worse father than "auroch blood showers" Randyll?? No way. 

[Morte]

30 minutes ago, frenin said:

And no, Hoster is not a lot worst than Tarly, not even if he put all his efforts on it.

2 hours ago, Morte said:

Worst dad of the century for me goes like this: Tywin (undisputed) > Hoster > (maybe, need more data) Tarly

Hoster aborted Lysa's kid, which was done for her own good as much as for the fetus, and it was done because Lysa raped LF. Mistake?? More like a misguided. Horrible to the point of considering him a worse father than "auroch blood showers" Randyll?? No way.

Hoster almost killed his daughter with a forced abortion, destroying her ability to carry a child without mayor complications - and then he married her off to an old man (not an older man, but an really old man). If one knows the drugs used in the process (there is NOT ONE recipe even remotely save - and Hoster was surely told that by his maester, clearly he knew what he had done) one does not compare this to bathing in auroch blood (which was a fairly stupid idea, but more desperate  than cruel - cruel were other things he did to Sam; the blood was just stupid) or getting a very harsh and brutal training.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Tarly's lessons were more caveman than the finesse of Tywin's rape game that's for sure but that does not make it better nor any less scarry than Tywin's.  

From an in-world-perspective, even Tarly's threat against Sam and him sending his son to the Wall would be seen as within the spectrum of what is - while not "great" or "okay" - still tolerable as parenting method.

But you would have to hand out buckets to the lords of Westeros if you told them the story of this "finesse". We are in completely different categories here.

[Wall Flower]

1 minute ago, Morte said:

Hoster almost killed his daughter with a forced abortion, destroying her ability to carry a child without mayor complications - and then he married her off to an old man (not an older man, but an really old man). If one knows the drugs used in the process (there is NOT ONE recipe even remotely save - and Hoster was surely told that by his maester, clearly he knew what he had done) one does not compare this to bathing in auroch blood (which was a fairly stupid idea, but more desperate  than cruel - cruel were other things he did to Sam; the blood was just stupid) or getting a very harsh and brutal training.

From an in-world-perspective, even Tarly's threat against Sam and him sending his son to the Wall would be seen as within the spectrum of what is - while not "great" or "okay" - still tolerable as parenting method.

But you would have to hand out buckets to the lords of Westeros if you told them the story of this "finesse". We are in completely different categories here.

Tarly chained Sam to a wall for three days for suggesting he could become a maester, giving Sam long-term PTSD. Then he told Sam that he would kill him in a hunting 'accident' if he didn't agree to go to the Wall. I despise Hoster's actions but I don't think he actually wanted to harm Lysa permanently, unlike Tarly who was apparently quite prepared to kill his own son. At least Hoster was deeply regretful of his actions at the end of his life, while I'm not convinced that Tarly gives the slighted shit about Sam.