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Heresy 231 Alienarea Strikes Again


Black Crow

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The letter has clearly been sent originally from Winterfell as the writer knows things unknown to Castle Black

At least part of the letter originates from Ramsay Bolton

The letter has been tampered with. GRRM has told us this by inserting the detail about the smear of pink wax rather than a regular seal

So who dunnit and why ?

Someone at Winterfell seems doubtful due to its remoteness from Castle Black, but something also worth noting is the handwriting or lack of comment on it. ts already been mentioned that the reader is extremely unlikely to recognise [or fail to recognise] the author's hanwriting, but nor does the reader notice that the handwriting has changed. This suggests that either the letter was written by a single hand and is presented to us complete and entire - but in that case why the dodgy seal? Or alternatively, it was altered either by a skilled forger, or by someone who can disguise the alteration by using magic. 

And of course has a motive to mislead

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5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The letter has clearly been sent originally from Winterfell as the writer knows things unknown to Castle Black

At least part of the letter originates from Ramsay Bolton

The letter has been tampered with. GRRM has told us this by inserting the detail about the smear of pink wax rather than a regular seal

So who dunnit and why ?

Someone at Winterfell seems doubtful due to its remoteness from Castle Black, but something also worth noting is the handwriting or lack of comment on it. ts already been mentioned that the reader is extremely unlikely to recognise [or fail to recognise] the author's hanwriting, but nor does the reader notice that the handwriting has changed. This suggests that either the letter was written by a single hand and is presented to us complete and entire - but in that case why the dodgy seal? Or alternatively, it was altered either by a skilled forger, or by someone who can disguise the alteration by using magic. 

And of course has a motive to mislead

You are suggesting that Ramsay wrote the letter initially and Melisandre either rewrote it entirely or (for lack of a better word) glamoured it?

That is possible, but I wouldn't place too much weight on the handwriting. As I tried to explain a few posts ago not many people arr knowledgeable in writing and reading and most of them don't practise a lot - most writings would look clumsy because of this, and even a bad fake might pass ad true for the same reasons.

I agree the letter was started by Ramsay, and then there is a break. Someone picked up, but who?

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8 minutes ago, alienarea said:

I agree the letter was started by Ramsay, and then there is a break. Someone picked up, but who?

Or Ramsey went to get someone to help him in writing the letter.  There doesn't necessarily have to be different handwriting.  Ramsey could have been taking dictation or rather collaborating on what to say.

I do think Melisandre opened the letter, read it and then re-sealed it.  Hence the smudged wax.  So I stick with Mance and Ramsey where the contents of the letter gives information to Mel about the ploy he had in mind.  Then the trigger is pulled.

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I'm not sure that Ramsey would get as far as Long Lake before turning back given that the ground is covered with snow and could conceal traps of the kind that the Umbers layed out under the snow.  I think the storm got the better of him and he turned back to Winterfell.  It's not a short ride from Winterfell to Long Lake.  Which is where I assume Stannis is camped based on Asha's comment about the trees on the lake.

The curious thing is that Theon and Jeyne are turned over to Izembaro by the Umber faction harrying Winterfell.  So Izembaro first went past Stannis' camp toward Winterfell before returning to Stannis.

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2 hours ago, LynnS said:

The curious thing is that Theon and Jeyne are turned over to Izembaro by the Umber faction harrying Winterfell.  So Izembaro first went past Stannis' camp toward Winterfell before returning to Stannis.

You mean Tycho Nestoris? Yes he met with Jon first at Castle Black, but remember Stannis is west of Winterfell.

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3 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

You mean Tycho Nestoris? Yes he met with Jon first at Castle Black, but remember Stannis is west of Winterfell.

Yes, that's what I meant.  Hah.  I wasn't really clear about where Stannis located since they are near a lake.

 

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Yes, that's what I meant.  Hah.  I wasn't really clear about where Stannis located since they are near a lake.

 

Stannis engaged the ironborn forces near Deepwood Motte - that is how Asha got captured. Stannis was visiting various northern lords gathering support and that’s how he ended up west of Winterfell.

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3 hours ago, Melifeather said:

You mean Tycho Nestoris? Yes he met with Jon first at Castle Black, but remember Stannis is west of Winterfell.

 

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

Yes, that's what I meant.  Hah.  I wasn't really clear about where Stannis located since they are near a lake.

 

 

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

Stannis engaged the ironborn forces near Deepwood Motte - that is how Asha got captured. Stannis was visiting various northern lords gathering support and that’s how he ended up west of Winterfell.

Wow, maybe I should reread those. Totally forgot that Tycho Nestoris is around with Stannis.

Wonder what role he has to play.

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26 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Wow, maybe I should reread those. Totally forgot that Tycho Nestoris is around with Stannis.

Wonder what role he has to play.

I think he has come to bankroll Stannis.

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8 hours ago, alienarea said:

 

 

Wow, maybe I should reread those. Totally forgot that Tycho Nestoris is around with Stannis.

Wonder what role he has to play.

Cersei was in arrears paying back the Iron Bank so the bank decided to help Stannis if he promised to repay the crown’s debts.

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Sorry off topic, I've been travelling down some other roads and I thought heretics might find this interesting:

Have you read Ender's Game or considered Orson Scott Card's influence on Martin?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ender's_Game

Here's an interesting essay on Creating the Innocent Killer.  It seems to me that that Martin is creating such a role for Bran.

Quote

The possibility that Stryka may have a legitimate reason to object to Ender’s behavior is never considered—her qualms are “fashion.”  A page later, Ender identifies Stryka’s real motivation (which Ender knows but she does not) as a fear of the stranger.  In this case the stranger is not the aliens exterminated by Ender, but Ender himself.  Stryka’s concern for the genocide of the buggers, which might be interpreted as arising out of a concern for the humanity of the “other,” is presented instead as an example of scapegoating the “other”—but in this case the other is redefined as the exterminator,  not the exterminated.  This is a very clever stratagem:  those of us concerned about understanding the “other” are redirected from worrying about the alien to worrying about the killer of the alien, and thus our condemnation of genocide reemerges as a sign of our prejudice and small-mindedness. Ender is not the victimizer, but the misunderstood victim of others’ fear and prejudice.

Source: https://johnjosephkessel.wixsite.com/kessel-website/creating-the-innocent-killer

ETA: https://georgerrmartin.com/about-george/on-writing-essays/the-preface-that-never-was-by-george-r-r-martin/

And Martin:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon II

"My lord, my f-f-f-father, Lord Randyll, he, he, he, he, he … the life of a maester is a life of servitude. No son of House Tarly will ever wear a chain. The men of Horn Hill do not bow and scrape to petty lords. Jon, I cannot disobey my father."

Kill the boy, Jon thought. The boy in you, and the one in him. Kill the both of them, you bloody bastard. "You have no father. Only brothers. Only us. Your life belongs to the Night's Watch, so go and stuff your smallclothes into a sack, along with anything else you care to take to Oldtown. You leave an hour before sunrise. And here's another order. From this day forth, you will not call yourself a craven. You've faced more things this past year than most men face in a lifetime. You can face the Citadel, but you'll face it as a Sworn Brother of the Night's Watch. I can't command you to be brave, but I can command you to hide your fears. You said the words, Sam. Remember?"

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon II

Sam fled from him just as Gilly had.

Jon was tired. I need sleep. He had been up half the night poring over maps, writing letters, and making plans with Maester Aemon. Even after stumbling into his narrow bed, rest had not come easily. He knew what he would face today, and found himself tossing restlessly as he brooded on Maester Aemon's final words. "Allow me to give my lord one last piece of counsel," the old man had said, "the same counsel that I once gave my brother when we parted for the last time. He was three-and-thirty when the Great Council chose him to mount the Iron Throne. A man grown with sons of his own, yet in some ways still a boy. Egg had an innocence to him, a sweetness we all loved. Kill the boy within you, I told him the day I took ship for the Wall. It takes a man to rule. An Aegon, not an Egg. Kill the boy and let the man be born." The old man felt Jon's face. "You are half the age that Egg was, and your own burden is a crueler one, I fear. You will have little joy of your command, but I think you have the strength in you to do the things that must be done. Kill the boy, Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us. Kill the boy and let the man be born."

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XIII

Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. The Night's Watch takes no part. He closed his fist and opened it again. What you propose is nothing less than treason. He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair. Kill the boy and let the man be born. He thought of Bran, clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey. Of Rickon's breathless laughter. Of Sansa, brushing out Lady's coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow. He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird's nest. I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back …

Jon thinks of the innocence of all his siblings.  The child within all of them will be killed.

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On 5/22/2020 at 4:43 PM, alienarea said:

Tried to google the Asha fragment - that piece from 2016? I'll ignore that.

 

Given the circumstances, absolutely fair. I... I cannot help but being intrigued. Not that I am proud of that. I am only admitting my weakness. :dunce:

Apart from that, I don't have precise ideas about the battle of ice/lackes or whatever.

I really enjoy reading other people thoughts. And I find many of them interesting. But the set up - and by that I mean ADWD - to me still holds too many uncertainties. Too many things that may turn out one way or another in the next book.

For instance I may be alone on this as well, but there's another thing I am suspicious about. Richard Horpe and his true relationship with the Karstarks.

It's been suggested - here for instance - that Stannis knew of the Karstarks/Boltons plot before receiving Jon's letter and that Richard Horpe is the only man informed by Stannis on the matter and tasked by his king to control/watch over the Karstarks. I believe that the contrary is equally plausible. That Horpe may be plotting with Karstarks (thus with Boltons) and that on the basis of the same quotes/lines that are used to sustein the former argument. You can read them one way or another. And there's something in THEON sample chapter... that smells 

THEON I TWOW

Spoiler

Ser Richard, whilst I am breaking fast with Lord Arnolf, you are to disarm his men and take them into custody.  Most will be asleep.  Do them no harm, unless they resist.  It may be they did not know.  Question some upon that point... but sweetly.  If they had no knowledge of this treachery, they shall have the chance to prove their loyalty."  He snapped a hand in dismissal.  "Send in Justin Massey."
.......

Horpe is sent out to disarm the Karstarks men. Massey enters and has a conversation with Stannis. After that, the Karstarks arrive (Horpe is not with them)

"You are dead men, understand that," the king went on.  "Only the manner of your dying remains to be determined.  You would be well advised not to waste my time with denials.  Confess, and you shall have the same swift end that the Young Wolf gave Lord Rickard.  Lie, and you will burn.  Choose."
     "I choose this."  One of the grandsons seized his sword hilt, and made to draw it. 
     That proved to be a poor choice.  The grandson's blade had not even cleared his scabbard before two of the king's knights were on him.  It ended with his forearm flopping in the dirt and blood spurting from his stump, and one of his brothers stumbling for the stairs, clutching a belly wound.  He staggered up six steps before he fell, and came crashing back down to the floor.
     Neither Arnolf Karstark nor his son had moved.
 "Take them away," the king commanded.  "The sight of them sours my stomach."  Within moments, the five men had been bound and removed.  The one who had lost his sword arm had fainted from loss of blood, but his brother with the belly wound screamed loud enough for both of them.  "That is how I deal with betrayal, turncloak," Stannis informed Theon.

Notice how, Arnold and his son, make no moves... as if they're more clever or - maybe - informed and confident in a B-plan

.....

The door opened.  Beyond, the world was white.  The knight of the three moths entered, his legs caked with snow.  He stomped his feet to knock it off and said, "Your Grace, the Karstarks are taken.  A few of them resisted, and died for it.  Most were too confused, and yielded quietly.  We have herded them all into the longhall and confined them there."
     "Well done."
     "They say they did not know.  The ones we've questioned."
     "They would."
     "We might question them more sharply... "
     "No.  I believe them.  Karstark could never have hoped to keep his treachery a secret if he shared his plans with every baseborn manjack in his service.  Some drunken spearman would have let it slip one night whilst laying with a whore.  They did not need to know.  They are Karhold men.  When the moment came they would have obeyed their lords, as they had done all their lives." 
     "As you say, Sire."
     "What of your own losses?"
     "One of Lord Peasebury's men was killed, and two of mine were wounded.  If it please Your Grace, though, the men are growing anxious.  There are hundreds of them gathered around the tower, wondering what's happened.  Talk of treason is on every lip.  No one knows who to trust, or who might be arrested next.  The northmen especially — "
     "I need to talk with them.  Is Wull still waiting?"
     "Him and Artos Flint.  Will you see them?"
     "Shortly.  The kraken first."

Here's Horpe again. And he insists in having Theon executed. Now, of course  it may be because he understands how that is important for the norther men, at the same time however, it's my belief that once Theon escaped the main problem the Boltons have is him.... that he may confess what really happened to Bran and Rickon etc... So to kill Theon is at that point paramount for the Boltons as well. So Horpe might operate in their interest as well.

On the subject of the letter handwriting, I still think that the fact itself that Jon doesn't say explicitly that he recognizes it as that of Ramsey's, was at the very least done on purpose by George to make us speculate.

The simple truth - in fact - is that in Westeros, just like in the Middle Ages, sometimes people who know how to write make/made use of scribes. It's fair, not surprising in a context like that. 

And just because we don't read of Jon explicitly thinking that it is Ramsey's handwriting we can speculate as much as we want.

@LynnS It may be. Clearly. At the same time however that is a pretty common symbolism in the Alchemy tradition. As well as the Egg. You kill the so called the foetus, or you kill the King, or another thing used to symbolize the "philosophical" (= binary) sulfur principle and you revive him.

And overall - I'd say - that George is just one of those authors who make a large use of the symbolism of that tradition.

There's a reason as to why - to say one thing - Red and White are not oly the colors of Fire and Ice, Targaryens and Starks, but also of weirwoods and Bloodraven, of Ghost and Longclaw, of Jaquen's hair the first time Arya meets him (so that you have Bran, Jon and Arya all connected to a mentor tied to those 2 colors), of Lightbringer (red and burning) on one hand and Dawn (white) in the other, just like the actual dawn (first the reddening of the sun-rise then the withe of the day-light)... and that's why - imo - Val is white with red cheeks, etc...

But so is wildfire, the idea of lighting the candle (I say that beacuse of the other thread we're discussing in), the connection drangos/stones, etc...

That is to say that in ASOIAF that kind of symbolism/tradintion is so frequently usedthat I find more likely that the reason as to why we find those parellels is due to the fact that the author of that novel is another guy who did the same, in a smaller scale. 

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4 hours ago, lalt said:

Given the circumstances, absolutely fair. I... I cannot help but being intrigued. Not that I am proud of that. I am only admitting my weakness. :dunce:

Apart from that, I don't have precise ideas about the battle of ice/lackes or whatever.

I really enjoy reading other people thoughts. And I find many of them interesting. But the set up - and by that I mean ADWD - to me still holds too many uncertainties. Too many things that may turn out one way or another in the next book.

For instance I may be alone on this as well, but there's another thing I am suspicious about. Richard Horpe and his true relationship with the Karstarks.

It's been suggested - here for instance - that Stannis knew of the Karstarks/Boltons plot before receiving Jon's letter and that Richard Horpe is the only man informed by Stannis on the matter and tasked by his king to control/watch over the Karstarks. I believe that the contrary is equally plausible. That Horpe may be plotting with Karstarks (thus with Boltons) and that on the basis of the same quotes/lines that are used to sustein the former argument. You can read them one way or another. And there's something in THEON sample chapter... that smells 

THEON I TWOW

  Reveal hidden contents

Ser Richard, whilst I am breaking fast with Lord Arnolf, you are to disarm his men and take them into custody.  Most will be asleep.  Do them no harm, unless they resist.  It may be they did not know.  Question some upon that point... but sweetly.  If they had no knowledge of this treachery, they shall have the chance to prove their loyalty."  He snapped a hand in dismissal.  "Send in Justin Massey."
.......

Horpe is sent out to disarm the Karstarks men. Massey enters and has a conversation with Stannis. After that, the Karstarks arrive (Horpe is not with them)

"You are dead men, understand that," the king went on.  "Only the manner of your dying remains to be determined.  You would be well advised not to waste my time with denials.  Confess, and you shall have the same swift end that the Young Wolf gave Lord Rickard.  Lie, and you will burn.  Choose."
     "I choose this."  One of the grandsons seized his sword hilt, and made to draw it. 
     That proved to be a poor choice.  The grandson's blade had not even cleared his scabbard before two of the king's knights were on him.  It ended with his forearm flopping in the dirt and blood spurting from his stump, and one of his brothers stumbling for the stairs, clutching a belly wound.  He staggered up six steps before he fell, and came crashing back down to the floor.
     Neither Arnolf Karstark nor his son had moved.
 "Take them away," the king commanded.  "The sight of them sours my stomach."  Within moments, the five men had been bound and removed.  The one who had lost his sword arm had fainted from loss of blood, but his brother with the belly wound screamed loud enough for both of them.  "That is how I deal with betrayal, turncloak," Stannis informed Theon.

Notice how, Arnold and his son, make no moves... as if they're more clever or - maybe - informed and confident in a B-plan

.....

The door opened.  Beyond, the world was white.  The knight of the three moths entered, his legs caked with snow.  He stomped his feet to knock it off and said, "Your Grace, the Karstarks are taken.  A few of them resisted, and died for it.  Most were too confused, and yielded quietly.  We have herded them all into the longhall and confined them there."
     "Well done."
     "They say they did not know.  The ones we've questioned."
     "They would."
     "We might question them more sharply... "
     "No.  I believe them.  Karstark could never have hoped to keep his treachery a secret if he shared his plans with every baseborn manjack in his service.  Some drunken spearman would have let it slip one night whilst laying with a whore.  They did not need to know.  They are Karhold men.  When the moment came they would have obeyed their lords, as they had done all their lives." 
     "As you say, Sire."
     "What of your own losses?"
     "One of Lord Peasebury's men was killed, and two of mine were wounded.  If it please Your Grace, though, the men are growing anxious.  There are hundreds of them gathered around the tower, wondering what's happened.  Talk of treason is on every lip.  No one knows who to trust, or who might be arrested next.  The northmen especially — "
     "I need to talk with them.  Is Wull still waiting?"
     "Him and Artos Flint.  Will you see them?"
     "Shortly.  The kraken first."

Here's Horpe again. And he insists in having Theon executed. Now, of course  it may be because he understands how that is important for the norther men, at the same time however, it's my belief that once Theon escaped the main problem the Boltons have is him.... that he may confess what really happened to Bran and Rickon etc... So to kill Theon is at that point paramount for the Boltons as well. So Horpe might operate in their interest as well.

On the subject of the letter handwriting, I still think that the fact itself that Jon doesn't say explicitly that he recognizes it as that of Ramsey's, was at the very least done on purpose by George to make us speculate.

The simple truth - in fact - is that in Westeros, just like in the Middle Ages, sometimes people who know how to write make/made use of scribes. It's fair, not surprising in a context like that. 

And just because we don't read of Jon explicitly thinking that it is Ramsey's handwriting we can speculate as much as we want.

@LynnS It may be. Clearly. At the same time however that is a pretty common symbolism in the Alchemy tradition. As well as the Egg. You kill the so called the foetus, or you kill the King, or another thing used to symbolize the "philosophical" (= binary) sulfur principle and you revive him.

And overall - I'd say - that George is just one of those authors who make a large use of the symbolism of that tradition.

There's a reason as to why - to say one thing - Red and White are not oly the colors of Fire and Ice, Targaryens and Starks, but also of weirwoods and Bloodraven, of Ghost and Longclaw, of Jaquen's hair the first time Arya meets him (so that you have Bran, Jon and Arya all connected to a mentor tied to those 2 colors), of Lightbringer (red and burning) on one hand and Dawn (white) in the other, just like the actual dawn (first the reddening of the sun-rise then the withe of the day-light)... and that's why - imo - Val is white with red cheeks, etc...

But so is wildfire, the idea of lighting the candle (I say that beacuse of the other thread we're discussing in), the connection drangos/stones, etc...

That is to say that in ASOIAF that kind of symbolism/tradintion is so frequently usedthat I find more likely that the reason as to why we find those parellels is due to the fact that the author of that novel is another guy who did the same, in a smaller scale. 

Stannis' army was outnumbered to Renly's, and he only succeded because of Melisandre and one could argue he commited kinslaying by proxy.

Now he's outnumbered and in a difficult situation and Melisandre is not around so he might come full circle?

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3 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Stannis' army was outnumbered to Renly's, and he only succeded because of Melisandre and one could argue he commited kinslaying by proxy.

Now he's outnumbered and in a difficult situation and Melisandre is not around so he might come full circle?

Another good reason to not be optimistic about Stannis' situation/future.

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5 hours ago, LynnS said:

The possibility that Stryka may have a legitimate reason to object to Ender’s behavior is never considered—her qualms are “fashion.”  A page later, Ender identifies Stryka’s real motivation (which Ender knows but she does not) as a fear of the stranger.  In this case the stranger is not the aliens exterminated by Ender, but Ender himself.  Stryka’s concern for the genocide of the buggers, which might be interpreted as arising out of a concern for the humanity of the “other,” is presented instead as an example of scapegoating the “other”—but in this case the other is redefined as the exterminator,  not the exterminated.  This is a very clever stratagem:  those of us concerned about understanding the “other” are redirected from worrying about the alien to worrying about the killer of the alien, and thus our condemnation of genocide reemerges as a sign of our prejudice and small-mindedness. Ender is not the victimizer, but the misunderstood victim of others’ fear and prejudice.

This is how I feel about the wildlings. They've been otherized - the stories about the Others are hyper-exaggerated myths to justify what was done to them. They may not have been totally exterminated, but they have been contained. 

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4 hours ago, Melifeather said:

This is how I feel about the wildlings. They've been otherized - the stories about the Others are hyper-exaggerated myths to justify what was done to them. They may not have been totally exterminated, but they have been contained. 

Yes, I see your point.  The essay was part of a larger conversation with Sweetsunray concerning the WW's as Others (the plutonian others).  That essay is my inspiration for the Three Headed Ice Dragon (Sweetsunray, the Fattest Leach, KissedbyFire).  You can see the conversation starting on page 3 of this thread (the OP is also really interesting but we sidetracked):

  

 

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Yes, I see your point.  The essay was part of a larger conversation with Sweetsunray concerning the WW's as Others (the plutonian others).  That essay is my inspiration for the Three Headed Ice Dragon (Sweetsunray, the Fattest Leach,Seams).  You can see the conversation starting on page 3 of this thread (the OP is also really interesting but we sidetracked):

  

 

Correction: the third head isn't Seams - though I always have inspiring forum discussion with Seams  but kissdbyfire

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3 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Correction: the third head isn't Seams - though I always have inspiring forum discussion with Seams  but kissdbyfire

Oh sorry about that Kissedbyfire. Fixed it.

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19 hours ago, lalt said:

There's a reason as to why - to say one thing - Red and White are not oly the colors of Fire and Ice, Targaryens and Starks, but also of weirwoods and Bloodraven, of Ghost and Longclaw, of Jaquen's hair the first time Arya meets him (so that you have Bran, Jon and Arya all connected to a mentor tied to those 2 colors), of Lightbringer (red and burning) on one hand and Dawn (white) in the other, just like the actual dawn (first the reddening of the sun-rise then the withe of the day-light)... and that's why - imo - Val is white with red cheeks, etc...

I think you can include being burned as marked by red fire.  Jaqen wears red and white hair; Sandor Clegane has half his face burned.  There is also a 'healer' in Braavos who wears a red and white robe . 

But I suspect the healer is there to offer Aemon a painless passage and actually another aspect of the services provided by the HoB&W.  If you can't go to them and drink from the pool; they will send a 'dark angel' to ease your passing.

The business about Jaqen is odd though.  If he's wearing someone's face, what's with the red and white hair? Has there been any other character described with red and white hair besides Jaqen?  Maybe this is his true face?

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3 hours ago, LynnS said:

The business about Jaqen is odd though.  If he's wearing someone's face, what's with the red and white hair? Has there been any other character described with red and white hair besides Jaqen?  Maybe this is his true face?

I don't know it and I am not even sure if it really matters. What caught my attention is the symbolism (and the fact that it is associeted to Arya, Bran and Jon - our 3 main Starks wargs - one way or another). So personally I don't take that as a direct clue about his identity (it may be, it may be not) but as a sort of indirect clue about the overall narrative of the series, which is heavily influenced by the alchemical/hermetic tradition imo.

EDIT: check for Michael Maier: Atlanta fugiens Emblema XXIV - and you'll see what's coming for Jon and Ghost, for instance.

Here at page 76 and following 

But I woudn't rule out the chance that it is also an indirect hint about the FMs.... and their relationship with the old gods. That as you know, I think may existe and may predate by a long shot the current time line.

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