corbon Posted August 6, 2020 Share Posted August 6, 2020 12 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said: No, it's not. Her body could have easily been dragged by the current into the sea. She might have fed the fishes near the Arbor for all we know. To be fair, the information that there was no body is evidence, of a kind, that she may not be dead after all. It creates a much stronger possibility that stories of her death are incorrect, than if we hadn't been informed that no body was found. But this is not absence of evidence being evidence. Its an actual data point, evidence that the other evidence we have (rumours or tales) may be significantly less strong than it appears. 12 hours ago, Frey family reunion said: Sorry, that's simply not true. Harwin certainly states that the rumour around Winterfell was that Ned and Ashara's affair ended before Ned was betrothed to Cat. Harwin, nor his rumour, never addresses any end to it. 12 hours ago, Frey family reunion said: That there was no stain on Ned's honor because whatever he did with Ashara ended before even his betrothal to Cat. There was no stain on Ned's honour to that particular part of any rumour. Other rumours, or parts of rumours, which may have stains were not addressed at all. It is a fallacy, and blatantly incorrectly, to assume that rumours of Ned and Ashara romancing at Harrenhal are not separate from rumours of Ned and Ashara creating Jon. They may be connected, but they are two different things at different times. 12 hours ago, Frey family reunion said: The fact that the other rumour in Winterfell was that Ashara was Jon's mother certainly implies that at least some of the gossipers in Winterfell must have thought Jon was older. The only one that we know of who definitely thinks Jon was younger than Robb is Cat. And Robert. Ned implies it and Robert clearly takes up the implication. So anyone else who's been involved will have the same perspective. Thats more indications than the other direction which has zero people even implying that Jon is older than Robb. 11 hours ago, Frey family reunion said: And yet, I doubt that it nonetheless. Ned tells Robert quite adamantly and hotly that he dishonored Cat before the eyes of gods and man while Cat was pregnant with his child. We know Ned is loathe to tell lies. Even when he had his confrontation with Cat about Jon's mother, Ned technically doesn't lie to her. He tells her that Jon is his own blood and to leave it at that. The fact that Ned is not a natural deceptor makes me question that he can put on a mummer's show in front of Robert and angrily rail about the dishonor he put upon himself and Cat unless it was true. Since we have a good reason to disbelieve that Ned cheated on Cat and conceived Jon, we have to ask ourselves, in what other manner could Ned have dishonored himself and Cat in the eyes of god and man? I think the answer is quite simple. Ned's dishonor was his false affirmation of Jon as his son, which was made (like all affirmations in Westeros) before the eyes of gods and man. I agree, as it happens. But Ned goes further than this, explicitly Quote "I had taken her to wife. She was carrying my child." That is clearly a reference to the conception. By the time he publicly claimed Jon as his own at Winterfell, and committed his dishonor, Robb had already been born and Cat was no longer 'carrying' him. 7 hours ago, Frey family reunion said: Just like you have to read between the lines about what Ned tells Cat during their argument, you have to read between the lines about what he tells Robert during their argument. I don't think that Ned really said that he conceived Jon after he left Cat pregnant with Robb. Just like I don't think he told Cat during their argument that Jon was his son. By stating that he committed the dishonour after he married her, he is implying that Jon is younger than Robb. He didn;t directly address the conception, but his statement doesn;t work for when he met Cat at Winterfell. 7 hours ago, Frey family reunion said: I think Ned truly believes that he dishonored Cat and himself. And when his anger comes up, the truth comes out. I think that Ned does believe that he dishonored himself and dishonored Cat but he believes that he caused this dinhoner when he made a false affirmation under oath that he was Jon's father. Ned lets Robert assume that what he is referring to is an indiscretion with Wylla. Agreed, more or less. I don't think there was any affirmative under oath or anything, just letting the world, especially Winterfellians and Cat, believe Jon was his son, does the trick for me. 7 hours ago, Frey family reunion said: And if that's the case, then I'm not sure we can read too much into Ned saying that he dishonored Cat while she was pregnant with Robb. I don't think he's really trying to convey to Robert a specific time frame when an affair happened, because while Ned is angry and in the moment, he's really not referring to a false infedelity. He's referring to a very real indescretion, when he falsely swears under oath to gods and man that he was Jon's father, an act which had reprecussions both towards him and his wife. I don't agree that we can dismiss the obvious wider implications. Its clear that Robert takes the implication that its his marriage vows that Ned dishonoured, and its clear Ned reinforces that with his statement. We can't ignore that. 6 hours ago, Frey family reunion said: That's because you guys are parsing the text way too fine. Past the point of a legitimate meaning. Cat goes through the following analysis: 1. Ned would never speak of who Jon's mother was. 2. But, the castle held no secrets. Thus people were talking about who Jon's mother could be. 3. She heard the tale of Ashara Dayne, and how Ned brought her the sword Dawn. I.e. people are supplying a possible answer as to who they think Jon's mother is. No, not ie. Its a separate rumour. It may be connected by others and spoken (or unspoken), it may be connected by Cat herself (probably not alone). 6 hours ago, Frey family reunion said: 4. She confronts Ned about the truth of it. (what is it? we find out through Ned's reaction) 5. Ned tells her never to ask him about Jon again. So the truth that Cat confronts Ned with was whether Ashara was Ned's mother. 6. After that the whispering about Ashara Dayne stopped. No, after that all the whispering stopped. At least to Cat's knowledge. Not just the whispering about Ashara. 6 hours ago, Frey family reunion said: It's absurd to think that people were whispering about Ned's affair with Ashara but it was only Cat who made the assumption that Ashara could be Jon's mother, especially when the entire context of the passage was Cat trying to figure out who Jon's mother was. True. But its not absurd to think that Cat, like others, may have put the two together. The fact is, that what she describes hearing is not the two together. Changing the fact just because Cat is likely not the only one who could see such a connection is not warranted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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