U.S. Politics: End Testing, Make Schools Safe Again!

[Larry of the Lawn]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

I would just bring it back to an issue near and dear to you, LGB rights.

Or are they now LGBT rights? 

Or LGBTQ+ rights?

Sometimes you have to slowly crawl across broken glass to make gains. There's nothing wrong with treating things like a marathon, and those of you that want to sprint may need to rethink what the bigger picture is.

I can't help but think that during that time, every time there was some kind of legislative action or protest, there were probably people saying "don't be greedy" or "don't ask for that, you're going to kill the movement".  I wonder if this could have happened faster if not for the moderate voices urging caution.  

 

[S John]

I’ve seen quite a few conservative folks resort to the ‘God works in mysterious ways’ argument to defend the fact that POTUS is a scumbag. The argument is basically that God sometimes chooses imperfect instruments (cite King David here), Trump is doing Gods work (particularly in the pro-life department) and we should all just cut him some slack and not feel bad about supporting someone who is the antithesis of just about every value we teach our children.

I’m not particularly receptive to these arguments, and I’m not exactly religious besides. But setting aside for a moment the obvious fact that Obama was president for 8 years - and where did God stand on that one? -  I’m starting to get excited about pointing out that God must have wanted Biden to be president so badly that he literally sent a plague.

Not to be callous about something so serious, but coronavirus has really done Biden a solid. Trump had been so lucky to not have faced many major external crises and then this comes along and everyone gets to see how he handles something big and he completely shits the bed on it. Now we all see how this guy ‘leads’.

It has allowed Biden - a notorious gaffe machine - to seem like a stately, sane, steady presence by largely staying behind the scenes, reading from scripts, and not rage tweeting conspiracies. It has damaged the economy, arguably Trumps only strong point. Covid also might allow Biden to get out of an in-person debate with Trump where I fear he wouldn’t do well. Honestly no other kind of crisis that I could think of could possibly be more suited to helping Joe win the presidency.  If only we could hold the election today. I am not one to count my chickens before they hatch, but it seems to me God’s will is being made clear.  Rejoice!

[Tywin et al.]

46 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said:

My feeling, in this matter as in most, is that I'll take all the progress I can reasonably get today, and push for the rest tomorrow. So, yes, I agree that sometimes you achieve your policy goals in pieces.

Two steps forward, one step back is better than the reverse. 

(I'm also glad I deleted what I wrote next)

40 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

Most of us who are arguing against incrimentalism are not saying that one should refuse anything except complete and utter victory,

But when your starting point is an obvious lie? Is that how adults discuss and make deals?

 

[GrimTuesday]

20 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Hard to lose power when you don't have much. It's almost like, wait for it, given that you don't have much, you may try to plan on how to gain more.

Fucking shocking, I know. Just as shocking as me having a glass of OJ on the edge of the table for no reason and somehow, that went poorly. 

Because having one gun and three pointed against you means you're actually the one in charge? You're one bad hombre. 

Have you ever worked in a legislature? Do you know how to pass a bill? And then get the executive to sign it? Are you sure if, even so, a court will even give it a thumbs up? 

No I think not. 

Be reasonable, and more importantly, WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, Republicans have had more leverage for a long time. The current president said that some neo-Nazis are good people too and is retweeting a quack "doctor" who is talking about alien blood. If a liberal did that, they would be viewed as completely insane. A conservative, OTOH, they're just expressing their First Amendment rights.

Dude, you're incoherent at this point. Your analysis of how leverage works is absolutely contradictory and nonsensical. You can't argue that the only way to have leverage is to control all the lever of power while saying that if you opponent has one of those levers they do have leverage.

And I'm super proud of you that you worked in the legislature, have a pat on the head and a cookie.

Man, I am awake, have been for coming up on 24 hours, and I'm not the one tying myself into knots trying to prove the Democrats should be absolved of responsibility for whatever the latest Republican fueled atrocity rears it's ugly head because they had zero power even though they can just laugh what ever the Republicans send to them right back to the Senate and then go out and say that Donald trump is a mean stinky boy to the raucous applause of a grateful nation.

Don't even start with whining about differences in how Republicans can act vs how Democrats can act. Just accept that they're a bunch of troglodytes that we have chained ourselves to and who we are going to have to drag kicking and screaming in to the light. Yeah, it fucking sucks that Trump is a jowly Mussolini who has done long term damage to this country but more people are waking up to the injustices that he has brought to the center during his administration and we should focus on using this moment to our advantage in any way we can.

[GrimTuesday]

2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Two steps forward, one step back is better than the reverse. 

(I'm also glad I deleted what I wrote next)

But when your starting point is an obvious lie? Is that how adults discuss and make deals?

 

Clarify here for me, are you saying those of us arguing against incrementalism are lying? I don't want to misconstrue what you are saying here.

[Tywin et al.]

3 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

Dude, you're incoherent at this point.

I'm not the one with the underpants gnomes playbook....

[GrimTuesday]

Just now, Tywin et al. said:

I'm not the one with the underpants gnomes playbook....

Dude, whatever, this conversation is clearly going nowhere, you have yourself a great day.

[Tywin et al.]

Just now, GrimTuesday said:

Dude, whatever, this conversation is clearly going nowhere, you have yourself a great day.

No, you don't get to run away like that.

You have your starting point. You have your end goal. Fill in the blank, this time with something that will work.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, DMC said:

Except, the other side literally has put their offer on the table.  I don't get complaining about talking about negotiations just because the Senate hasn't passed anything yet.  It technically really doesn't matter if the Senate passes anything.  Then it'd just go to conference anyway.  I don't see anything wrong with that process being expedited.

They haven't even made an opening offer because it hasn't passed the Senate yet; whatever passes the Senate will be their offer. 

[Tywin et al.]

36 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

which is exactly what's happening. 

That's basically what's happening! 

These are a bit different.

And look, no one credible is saying just roll over and die, but at the same time you can't try to throw a touchdown on every play. You need to work things, strategically, and pick your spots when they make sense, not because it's something popular to do. 

I know that's cold, but it's the wise hand to play until something clearer shows itself. 

[Fragile Bird]

16 minutes ago, S John said:

I’ve seen quite a few conservative folks resort to the ‘God works in mysterious ways’ argument to defend the fact that POTUS is a scumbag. The argument is basically that God sometimes chooses imperfect instruments (cite King David here), Trump is doing Gods work (particularly in the pro-life department) and we should all just cut him some slack and not feel bad about supporting someone who is the antithesis of just about every value we teach our children.

I’m not particularly receptive to these arguments, and I’m not exactly religious besides. But setting aside for a moment the obvious fact that Obama was president for 8 years - and where did God stand on that one? -  I’m starting to get excited about pointing out that God must have wanted Biden to be president so badly that he literally sent a plague.

 

 I am not one to count my chickens before they hatch, but it seems to me God’s will is being made clear.  Rejoice!

I don't know if you've been reading the US Politics threads all along, but a couple of months ago I said I was expecting to hear that some fundie preacher was going to start saying that God had sent the plague down on America because America had elected a sinner, fornicator, liar and cheat as President.

Sadly, it has not yet happened.

I also recall that Ty laughed and made fun of me for thinking that would happen. But then again, there's still 97 days until the election, so maybe it will happen yet.

[Tywin et al.]

21 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

Man, I am awake, have been for coming up on 24 hours

Then you're half asleep. 

Quote

Dude, you're incoherent at this point. Your analysis of how leverage works is absolutely contradictory and nonsensical. You can't argue that the only way to have leverage is to control all the lever of power while saying that if you opponent has one of those levers they do have leverage.

And I'm super proud of you that you worked in the legislature, have a pat on the head and a cookie.

Lol how? What you are essentially arguing is that a minority takeover is an effective strategy because it makes you feel good. Have fun with that.

 

[Larry of the Lawn]

24 minutes ago, S John said:

I’ve seen quite a few conservative folks resort to the ‘God works in mysterious ways’ argument to defend the fact that POTUS is a scumbag. The argument is basically that God sometimes chooses imperfect instruments (cite King David here), Trump is doing Gods work (particularly in the pro-life department) and we should all just cut him some slack and not feel bad about supporting someone who is the antithesis of just about every value we teach our children.

I’m not particularly receptive to these arguments, and I’m not exactly religious besides. But setting aside for a moment the obvious fact that Obama was president for 8 years - and where did God stand on that one? -  I’m starting to get excited about pointing out that God must have wanted Biden to be president so badly that he literally sent a plague.

Not to be callous about something so serious, but coronavirus has really done Biden a solid. Trump had been so lucky to not have faced many major external crises and then this comes along and everyone gets to see how he handles something big and he completely shits the bed on it. Now we all see how this guy ‘leads’.

It has allowed Biden - a notorious gaffe machine - to seem like a stately, sane, steady presence by largely staying behind the scenes, reading from scripts, and not rage tweeting conspiracies. It has damaged the economy, arguably Trumps only strong point. Covid also might allow Biden to get out of an in-person debate with Trump where I fear he wouldn’t do well. Honestly no other kind of crisis that I could think of could possibly be more suited to helping Joe win the presidency.  If only we could hold the election today. I am not one to count my chickens before they hatch, but it seems to me God’s will is being made clear.  Rejoice!

For sure.  The crazy thing is that covid should have been a slam dunk boost for Trump.  All he had to do was half-assedly muddle through doing more or less what the rest of the world did and not actively undermine the experts and if the US had had an average response to the coronavirus he'd look like he did a great job.  Instead 

And for Biden, yeah, this was probably the best thing that could have happened.  Crazy to think that the impeachment would be less relevant than any of us realized at the time.  

At the same time, if this year has been instructional on anything at all it's that things can completely change in a couple months time.  Can't shake the feeling that something will happen to totally demolish whatever electoral prospects of a Trump loss are out there now.

[Fez]

1 hour ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

I think the calculus is slightly less nefarious.

I think they can read the writing on the wall and have resigned themselves to losing in this election. Thus they want to turn over the country in as bad a shape as possible, so they can campaign against it for the next four years or so. If you argue that's cynical, I'll have two words for you. Mitch McConnel.

Related to that, the ones that aren't up for re-election right now (or are but have truly safe seats) want to be as "pure" as possible so they claim the mantle of true conservative and be the one to lead the party back to power in 2024.

[DMC]

20 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

They haven't even made an opening offer because it hasn't passed the Senate yet; whatever passes the Senate will be their offer. 

That's not how politics works.  You don't have to pass something to make an offer.  They publicized an offer on Monday, and thus the Dems publicly responded to it.  The Dems would be idiots not to respond to it.  Now, should some of that response be pointing out they can't even pass the offer they put in the chamber they control?  Yes, definitely!  But acting like you should just wait until your opposition passes the offer they publicize before you respond not only contradicts how things have always been done in the history of modern politics, it's also incredibly stupid politically as it makes you look like you're the one sitting on your hands.

[Tywin et al.]

17 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

I also recall that Ty laughed and made fun of me for thinking that would happen. But then again, there's still 97 days until the election, so maybe it will happen yet.

I keep rolling 7's. Believe me now, thank me later (I did also blow my bowl out not that long ago and burned the GoT shirt I was oddly wearing, and I did break a glass in like the last hour or so too)

So let me take this one and push it all in another way, old fogey church lady.

42 minutes ago, S John said:

I’m starting to get excited about pointing out that God must have wanted Biden to be president so badly that he literally sent a plague.

Which plague?

Signed,

A first born.

[GrimTuesday]

31 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

No, you don't get to run away like that.

You have your starting point. You have your end goal. Fill in the blank, this time with something that will work.

Cute. The fact that you think that I need to have some detailed 20 point plan is laughable, equally so that you think you are the arbiter of political feasibility. I'm not a policy expert and somehow I doubt you are either. We're just two arm chair political strategists sniping at each other over the internet.

The fact of the matter is that Democrats have more power than you think and probably less power than I think. We have different opinions on how power should be wielded and I'm cool with that.

13 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Then you're half asleep. 

Lol how? What you are essentially arguing is that a minority takeover is an effective strategy because it makes you feel good. Have fun with that.

I never said that this was a minority takeover, I just said that the Democrats, since they hold one of the two chambers that bills have to move through in order to even get to the President's desk, are now in a position to extract concessions. This isn't a ridiculous or outlandish statement, otherwise what the hell was the point in the Democrats taking the House? Obstructionism for its own sake is wrong, obstructionism in the pursuit of better outcomes is the nature of being a minority party.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, DMC said:

This confused me, had to click the link.  It's doctorb.  Doctob sounds like a robot doctor to me.  Although...It'd be pretty cool if Jace was a robot doctor.  Well, cool and incredibly scary for society.

Perish the thought! I, for one, welcome our new Jace doctor-robot over-robot.

Quote

Yeah outside of some horrible occurrence, Lujan will be a Senator come January.  Jayapal's not the worst idea, I'd favor her over Jeffries.  Karen Bass has gotten a lot of VP hype recently.  I don't agree with that - Biden should pick somebody that will takeover in 2024, I don't wanna go through another shitshow primary if it can be avoided - but she'd also be an interesting leadership choice.  Hopefully whenever Pelosi steps down there's a real competition and lots of people throw their hats in the ring rather than a coronation for Jeffries.

What is just really fucking amazing to me (not in like a pissed off way or anything - just that it's weird) is how fucking old Democratic leadership is, especially in the House, compared to Republican leadership (ETA: and especially after Obama as president!).

I agree that a hard-fought contest for House leadership is best when the current crop steps down. I wouldn't necessarily hate Jeffries as House leader, but I don't want it to be a coronation either.

[Tywin et al.]

1 minute ago, GrimTuesday said:

Cute. The fact that you think that I need to have some detailed 20 point plan is laughable,

Would you stop writing things that make me shake my head?

You don't need a 20 point plan. Frankly, I would not read it, at least not right away. I'd get around to it at some point though, if it meant something to you. 

I literally asked you how you fill in B when going from A to C. If you can't do that, it's time to go back to the drawing board. 

[TrackerNeil]

1 hour ago, GrimTuesday said:

Most of us who are arguing against incrimentalism are not saying that one should refuse anything except complete and utter victory, I think that everyone has agreed that you should take the W when possible. The problem becomes when instrumentalist becomes something of an ideology in and of itself. This idea that everything must be done in baby steps prolongs suffering and allows those who oppose it time to rally their supporters against you and you end up missing your opportunities to get it done. Had we done universal health care when the Democrats were originally advocating for it, we would have had it since the 60s (maybe earlier, but I would have to double check that). Instead we now have massive lobbying and messaging infrastructure built up around maintaining the status quo that wasn't nearly as powerful back then.

I don't disagree with what you say, but I don't spend much time doing if only we had done something back then when it was even less possible than now. In 2009, Democrats for whatever reason did not have the votes for Medicare for All and that's that. We're closer today, but still not quite there.