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How Tywin Killed Rhaegar: A Tale of Cheats and Plotters


Sly Wren

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11 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Ah! My apologies--that Tywin approved it and that the Freys wouldn't have done it without him is all that matters.

One way or another, Tywin used others' grievances to get rid of his enemies, as he tried with the Darklyns.

Well it matters enough, because if the plan doesn't come from him, extrapolating it to Brandon is far difficult.

 

11 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Ah! Could be--though I'd add that just because others "heard" what happened doesn't mean what they heard and told Brandon was accurate.

Would also note that if friends/allies knew he was traveling, they'd know his basic route. A "friend" could find him with a message if they basically knew where to look. And if it was important enough that he get the message ASAP.

IE: Robert gets a message on the Kings Road from a rider in the night. No reason someone who knew Brandon's basic route couldn't do the same.

 

Brandon must've heard from someone and those who heard (or saw) it first are the best sources there is.

Brandon's friends and allies might have known  he was travelling and perhaps the route, Tywin's and Rhaegar's friends and allies sure didn't know it.

 

 

 

11 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Yes, of course. And then promptly ascribes his motives for crowning someone to Rhaegar's--which may or may not be correct.

But the rest of the context of the quote counts, too. That Barristan defines knightliness as honor and not just killing ability or skill. That he's thinking he can't deal with the plots around Dany. That it reminds him of Rhaegar's plots and secrets that Arthur knew, not Barristan. Then--only then--does he think of Harrenhal and think he should have been a "better knight."

Given all that context, especially the definition Barristan himself gives of what a knight is, "better knight" almost certainly means "more honorable," not "more powerful, skillful, or forceful" in the context of this chapter.

He also defines it as ability, which is why he wants to knight people, Barristan is regretting not having had skill enough that day.

 

11 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

The bolded is the key point.

And given that Tywin's goal wasn't to have Rhaegar win, it was to get revenge on Aerys and get someone on the throne Tywin could better manipulate and eventually crown Cersei--given all of that, Tywin would have worked hard to sell Rhaegar on his taking King's Landing.

That way, Tywin has a better chance to win no matter who survives the Trident.

How could he know he could manipulate Rhaegar or Robert??

And weren't Rhaegar and Tywin in cahoots??

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11 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Don't get me wrong--I'm not saying Rhaegar abused her or something. But I think there's a decent chance Rhaegar was like Stannis--focused and not at all passionate about anything but his prophecy goals. Too busy dreaming at Summerhall or playing his harp to care for much else.

Nah, dude/dudette.... Don't remotely equate Stannis to Rhaegar as of yet at least.....

Stannis although a bit of a entitled prick in ACOK had/has always been rock solid in his convictions and justifiably so...

I will change my overall outlook on Rhaegar if it turns out in the books that he had legit basis(not superficial) for doing what he did and didn't have the situation at control due to external factors not of his own..

But for now, he's an arrogant imbecile who had his head down his ass...

13 hours ago, frenin said:

Dayne we know he was the best, so he'd likely would've killed Robert or anyone in a duel.

Is that so? Let's see what Ned Stark has to say....

Quote

The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed." 

And,

Quote

His father had talked of him often: the peerless Robert Baratheon, demon of the Trident, the fiercest warrior of the realm, a giant among princes. 

Ned Stark knows both of them personally when they were fighting...

He calls Arthur the finest knight when Bran was asking who was the best knight. Now knighthood isn't actually just about fighting, it's more about,

Quote

(in the Middle Ages) a man raised by a sovereign to honourable military rank after service as a page and squire.

HISTORICAL

a gentleman representing a shire or county in Parliament.

noun: knight of the shire; plural noun: knights of the shire

LITERARY

a man devoted to the service of a woman or a cause.

Where as he, addressed Robert as peerless, which is is a pretty self-explanatory word meaning without equal or unrivaled.... And a giant which by definations...

Quote

an imaginary or mythical being of human form but superhuman size.

a person of exceptional talent or qualities.

According to Ned Stark ( who knows both the characters in discussion and is known for his Honor and honesty), He thought Robert could have beaten Arthur... In fact he thinks Bobby B could've smashed anyone in his prime and is in a league of his own..

Now Bobby B isn't just hype, he actually has an unbeaten wartime record to go with it unlike prince guard Dayne who as we know was beaten by Ned Stark and his 6 Northern buddies....

Anyways my apologies to the OP as this was off topic and not a fantasy fight thread, but I felt like saying it....

 

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1 hour ago, Orm said:

Nah, dude/dudette.... Don't remotely equate Stannis to Rhaegar as of yet at least.....

They do look similar.

 

Quote

According to Ned Stark ( who knows both the characters in discussion and is known for his Honor and honesty), He thought Robert could have beaten Arthur... In fact he thinks Bobby B could've smashed anyone in his prime and is in a league of his own..

Now Bobby B isn't just hype, he actually has an unbeaten wartime record to go with it unlike prince guard Dayne who as we know was beaten by Ned Stark and his 6 Northern buddies....

Anyways my apologies to the OP as this was off topic and not a fantasy fight thread, but I felt like saying it....

This is not Dragon Ball,   in battle it could go either way and there is a lot of factors.

Martin himself has said that Dayne is the best, so the odds are on his favor. 

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24 minutes ago, frenin said:

They do look similar.

I disagree....

 

24 minutes ago, frenin said:

This is not Dragon Ball

Did I mention it?

 

25 minutes ago, frenin said:

in battle it could go either way and there is a lot of factors

That's not what you said.....

It can go either way. But, Bobby B prime has the one-shot capability and the edge though...

26 minutes ago, frenin said:

Martin himself has said that Dayne is the best, so the odds are on his favor. 

Martin seems to hype Jaime(with two hands) in the interviews alot as far as I can tell,

He refers to Robert always as a giant(meaning inhuman, super-human) and also "a paragon of a man"(his words, not mine)...

So tell me again who has the edge? A guy near mythical in his prime with actual feats and an unbeaten record or a guy known for his finesse and a sweet mythical sword who lost to a bunch of Northern nobodies?....

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22 minutes ago, Orm said:

I disagree....

Dutiful, single minded, zealots...

 

23 minutes ago, Orm said:

Did I mention it?

With your daily praise one's get confused. But because called Robert that doesn't mean he could not been defeated.

 

24 minutes ago, Orm said:

That's not what you said.....

It can go either way. But, Bobby B prime has the one-shot capability and the edge though...

Yes, I said that Dayne could've killed him. Which by i stand.

 

25 minutes ago, Orm said:

Martin seems to hype Jaime(with two hands) in the interviews alot as far as I can tell,

He refers to Robert always as a giant(meaning inhuman, super-human) and also "a paragon of a man"(his words, not mine)...

So tell me again who has the edge? A guy near mythical in his prime with actual feats and an unbeaten record or a guy known for his finesse and a sweet mythical sword who lost to a bunch of Northern nobodies?....

Arthur Dayne, who is Martin's go to warrior.

 

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15 hours ago, frenin said:

Dutiful, single minded, zealots...

Let's wait for the books, shall we? And Stannis isn't a Zealot, he's an agnostic...

Lesser idiots(like Rhaegar) would have bought into it without a second thought.....

15 hours ago, frenin said:

With your daily praise one's get confused. But because called Robert that doesn't mean he could not been defeated.

 

So you have been reading it?

 And comparing one good hearted selfish idiot Jock to another and sharing it in a thread is a praise for one or the other? I see....

Eddard Stark called Robert Baratheon peerless knowing the lights of Arthur Dayne.

If wanna chalk this off as ass kissing, then go ahead....

But I don't given who Ned as a person is...

15 hours ago, frenin said:

Yes, I said that Dayne could've killed him. Which by i stand.

There's more a chance Robert would've one-shoted Dayne. Which I stand by....

 

15 hours ago, frenin said:

Arthur Dayne, who is Martin's go to warrior.

To each...

But given the context which I remember Martin goes to Arthur is when he needs a bodyguard.....

And Arthur's Job is being a glorified bodyguard.....

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1 hour ago, Orm said:

Let's wait for the books, shall we? And Stannis isn't a Zealot, he's an agnostic...

Lesser idiots(like Rhaegar) would have bought into it without a second thought.....

Stannis was about to burn his own nephew because that should awake him stone dragons. 

Thus Stannis is a zealot.

 

1 hour ago, Orm said:

So you have been reading it?

 And comparing one good hearted selfish idiot Jock to another and sharing it in a thread is a praise for one or the other? I see....

Ned Stark called Robert Baratheon peerless knowing Arthur Dayne...

If wanna chalk this off as ass kissing, then go ahead....

But I don't given who Ned as a person is...

Well the ones in which I'm quoted.

And Martin has made clear that Dayne was the best and he created them all.

 

1 hour ago, Orm said:

There's more a chance Robert would've one-shoted Dayne. Which I stand by....

One shotted?? Again, not anime.

 

 

1 hour ago, Orm said:

To each...

But given the context which I remember Martin goes to Arthur is when he needs a bodyguard.....

And Arthur's Job is being a glorified bodyguard.....

The best and most skilled glorified bodyguard.

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1 minute ago, frenin said:

Stannis was about to burn his own nephew because that should awake him stone dragons. 

Thus Stannis is a zealot.

No he didn't... He was conflicted and tempted....

But he didn't....

That's what matters....

2 minutes ago, frenin said:

And Martin has made clear that Dayne was the best and he created them all.

If you can give a link where he say's "Arthur Dayne was the best fighter of them all" I'll secede...

But from what I understand GRRM conveys prime Jaime is better then Dayne...

While prime Bobby B is the stuff of legends in his books....

7 minutes ago, frenin said:

One shotted?? Again, not anime.

We are talking about a big ass Warhammer which a grown ass well built man can't lift, right?.....

I imagine one good hit, and whatever armour your wearing it doesn't matter... Your finished.....

10 minutes ago, frenin said:

The best and most skilled glorified bodyguard

Arguably, you can make the case....

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17 minutes ago, Orm said:

No he didn't... He was conflicted and tempted....

But he didn't....

That's what matters....

He was not tempted, he was about to do it, when Davos showed up and told them that Edric had been shipped off. Davos had to send Stannis's nephew to Lys because otherwise, Stannis would have given him to pyre.

 

19 minutes ago, Orm said:

If you can give a link where he say's "Arthur Dayne was the best fighter of them all" I'll secede...

But from what I understand GRRM conveys prime Jaime is better then Dayne...

While prime Bobby B is the stuff of legends in his books....

Martin never says that Jaime is better than Dayne.

Gregor is also the stuff of legends, he  got beaten.

19 minutes ago, Orm said:

We are talking about a big ass Warhammer which a grown ass well built man can't lift, right?.....

I imagine one good hit, and whatever armour your wearing it doesn't matter... Your finished.....

Ditto.

 

 

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59 minutes ago, frenin said:

He was not tempted, he was about to do it, when Davos showed up and told them that Edric had been shipped off. Davos had to send Stannis's nephew to Lys because otherwise, Stannis would have given him to pyre.

This is a very dumb take....

Especially given the very real possibility that Stannis wanted things to play out that way....

Stannis was conflicted, he thought of it even while he was taking a shit.....

I will give him the benefit of the doubt Given Martin outright calls him a righteous man despite everything....

59 minutes ago, frenin said:

Martin never says that Jaime is better than Dayne.

IIRC Martin expresses they are somewhat equals. But since I somewhat like Jaime.. I take it as Jaime is better...

59 minutes ago, frenin said:

Gregor is also the stuff of legends, he  got beaten

Gregor is a monster in his society and battle I would imagine.... And Given that it took a guy who was tailoring his fighting skills and also used poison to kill him... I don't understand how is this supposed counter my argument?

But, he's still no Bobby B or the stuff of legends I am afraid....

This wasn't even a good try, dude.... The Hound would be more compatible to the Demon of the Trident in a comparison....

59 minutes ago, frenin said:

Ditto.

Should I take this as a concession? We are derailing this thread....

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7 hours ago, frenin said:

if the plan doesn't come from him, extrapolating it to Brandon is far difficult.

Extrapolating Tywin's work with the Freys in Storm to Brandon? Very difficult, since Brandon's dead.

But extrapolating Tywin's agreement with people (Rhaegar, etc.) to give info to Brandon? If Tywin knows the plan before it happened (as he did with the Freys and the Red Wedding), he still has the info to give, no?

7 hours ago, frenin said:

Brandon must've heard from someone and those who heard (or saw) it first are the best sources there is.

If the "survivors/witnesses" wanted truth out? Maybe. If they wanted to lie (like the Freys lie after the Red Wedding), not so much--Brandon might still have heard a lie.

Or if the witnesses are like those who witnessed Joffrey's death--still not reliable: plenty now think it was Sansa and Tyrion who killed Joff.

7 hours ago, frenin said:

Brandon's friends and allies might have known  he was travelling and perhaps the route, Tywin's and Rhaegar's friends and allies sure didn't know it.

Unless Brandon's "friends" and "allies" are working multiple sides--Lysa is Cat's sister. She still sent word that set up Cat and the Starks.

A lot of plotting and anger was going on at the time. No way there's no chance people Brandon trusted might not betray him.

7 hours ago, frenin said:

He also defines it as ability, which is why he wants to knight people, Barristan is regretting not having had skill enough that day.

He specifically states that it is chivalry and honor, not ability or swords, that makes a knight.

As the afternoon melted into evening, he bid his charges to lay down their swords and shields and gather round. He spoke to them about what it meant to be a knight. "It is chivalry that makes a true knight, not a sword," he said. "Without honor, a knight is no more than a common killer. It is better to die with honor than to live without it." The boys looked at him strangely, he thought, but one day they would understand. Dance, The Kingbreaker.

If Barristan's actions weren't up to his knightly standards, it was tied to chivalry and honor--in the context of this chapter.

8 hours ago, frenin said:

How could he know he could manipulate Rhaegar or Robert??

Rhaegar? He's known him--pretty much all Rhaegar's life. Pretty sure Tywin's taken his measure at this point.

Robert? He wouldn't know for sure--but he's clearly betting Robert's a better bet than Aerys.

8 hours ago, frenin said:

And weren't Rhaegar and Tywin in cahoots??

Yes--but Tywin was out for Tywin. He'll keep a deal only as long as it benefits him.

Tywin's goal is always to benefit himself, not whomever he's working with. Given a choice, he'll choose himself.

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7 hours ago, Orm said:

Nah, dude/dudette.... Don't remotely equate Stannis to Rhaegar as of yet at least.....

Stannis although a bit of a entitled prick in ACOK had/has always been rock solid in his convictions and justifiably so...

I will change my overall outlook on Rhaegar if it turns out in the books that he had legit basis(not superficial) for doing what he did and didn't have the situation at control due to external factors not of his own..

But for now, he's an arrogant imbecile who had his head down his ass...

Exactly alike? Of course not, dude! :P

But We've got a lot of reason to turn to Stannis for info on Rhaegar: Ned makes the same judgment about Stannis and Rhaegar re: brothels (the only judgment we see Ned make on Rhaegar).

Both dedicated to a cult: Rhaegar: cult of the Dragon with Three Heads. Stannis: the Burning Heart thingy.

Both described as singled-minded and focused--both very able.

I agree on needing to wait for info on Rhaegar. But what we've been shown so far makes me think Rhaegar wasn't some lovesick fool, no matter what his apologists in-world think. I think we may very well find he was more like Stannis, chasing a prophecy, a destiny, and a belief he was the prophesied king/leader to bring the Prince that was Promised into the world--and Tywin exploited it.

5 hours ago, frenin said:

They do look similar.

:agree:Amen, ser.

2 hours ago, Orm said:

If you can give a link where he say's "Arthur Dayne was the best fighter of them all" I'll secede...

But from what I understand GRRM conveys prime Jaime is better then Dayne...

While prime Bobby B is the stuff of legends in his books....

 

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Martin never says that Jaime is better than Dayne.

Gregor is also the stuff of legends, he  got beaten.

No idea if this will help your debate or not, but we do have at least one thing Martin says about Arthur Dayne's capability as a fighter:

Question: Who would win in a fight, Barristan Selmy or Arthur Dayne (in their best days)?

Martin: Dayne... if he was armed with Dawn.

If both men had equivalent weaponry, it might be a toss-up

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Sword_of_the_Morning_vs._Barristan_the_Bold

Pretty sure I didn't help anything in your debate, but . . . okay.

7 hours ago, Orm said:

Anyways my apologies to the OP as this was off topic and not a fantasy fight thread, but I felt like saying it....

No worries. For some reason, almost all of my threads turn into sandboxes.

And the issue of fighters is at least tangentially relevant.

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On 8/28/2020 at 8:01 PM, Sly Wren said:

GRRM  called him a lovestruck prince in what really looks like the context of "in world" belief.

So, maybe he was actually lovestruck, and maybe not.

But either way--I have no doubt Tywin would work hard to help Lyanna have an accident if Rhaegar returned with her and was actually in love with her.

We have that odd incident of the Kingswood Brotherhood attacking Elia--that was really, really stupid. But it would have gotten rid of Elia and opened up a "wife" slot for Cersei. It's just a hunch at this point, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Kingswood Brotherhood got some assurances from Tywin.

That's a reach. There's nothing to suggest GRRM was talking about it from an in world perspective. Bran thinks Rhaegar raped Lyanna which suggests that's the popular story. Only Dany's advisors really think it was love.

Since Rhaegar is pretty smart, he would probably catch on if Elia and his children died because of some random bandits along with Lyanna, and Tywin pressured him marry Cersei. 

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2 hours ago, Orm said:

This is a very dumb take....

Especially given the very real possibility that Stannis wanted things to play out that way....

Stannis was conflicted, he thought of it even while he was taking a shit.....

I will give him the benefit of the doubt Given Martin outright calls him a righteous man despite everything....

Indeed it's a very dumb take, Stannis says that he'd kill Edric if the remaining three kings are killed, those kings all die, when he's about to kill him, Davos says that it's not possible. The idea that he was not going to kill Edric by then, when he spends a whole book trying to justify his inevitable decision, is indeed dumb, fanboyist. 

Martin calls him a righteous man because he's the only king that acknowledges the threat beyond the wall and Martin also told D&D that Stannis is burning, sounds familiar, his daughter.

 

 

The rest is a waste of time,

 

 

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

Extrapolating Tywin's work with the Freys in Storm to Brandon? Very difficult, since Brandon's dead.

But extrapolating Tywin's agreement with people (Rhaegar, etc.) to give info to Brandon? If Tywin knows the plan before it happened (as he did with the Freys and the Red Wedding), he still has the info to give, no?

To whom?? To Brandon?? He has the same info Rhaegar has and he's even further from the action than Rhaegar while not knowing where the hell is Brandon.

 

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

If the "survivors/witnesses" wanted truth out? Maybe. If they wanted to lie (like the Freys lie after the Red Wedding), not so much--Brandon might still have heard a lie.

Or if the witnesses are like those who witnessed Joffrey's death--still not reliable: plenty now think it was Sansa and Tyrion who killed Joff.

What lie tho?? Brandon hears the news than soon would be repeated by loyalists and rebels alike. And honestly, Joff'd murder is not comparable to an abduction.

 

 

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

Unless Brandon's "friends" and "allies" are working multiple sides--Lysa is Cat's sister. She still sent word that set up Cat and the Starks.

A lot of plotting and anger was going on at the time. No way there's no chance people Brandon trusted might not betray him.

Such as?? The people Brandon hanged with, as far as we know didn't hav much relationship with Rhaegar's. And the Starks were doing their own thing by then.

And the thing with being on the road is that your route is kinda unpredictable, Robert travelled with a huge wagon,  this were six young men on a horse living the life.

 

 

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

He specifically states that it is chivalry and honor, not ability or swords, that makes a knight.

As the afternoon melted into evening, he bid his charges to lay down their swords and shields and gather round. He spoke to them about what it meant to be a knight. "It is chivalry that makes a true knight, not a sword," he said. "Without honor, a knight is no more than a common killer. It is better to die with honor than to live without it." The boys looked at him strangely, he thought, but one day they would understand. Dance, The Kingbreaker.

 

If Barristan's actions weren't up to his knightly standards, it was tied to chivalry and honor--in the context of this chapter.

In the context of this same chapter he relates knighthood and skill, you seem to be cheerypicking here.

 

 

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

Rhaegar? He's known him--pretty much all Rhaegar's life. Pretty sure Tywin's taken his measure at this point.

Robert? He wouldn't know for sure--but he's clearly betting Robert's a better bet than Aerys.

And what makes him sure that he's malleable, Rhaegar strikes me as a zealot than ultimately heeds to no one but himself.

He didn't know Robert at all and ultimately he'd arrive lately to hte crowd of the already victorious Lannisters.

 

 

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

Yes--but Tywin was out for Tywin. He'll keep a deal only as long as it benefits him.

Tywin's goal is always to benefit himself, not whomever he's working with. Given a choice, he'll choose himself.

True but if he rather Rhaegar, he still wins.

 

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On 8/29/2020 at 2:54 AM, Sly Wren said:

Let me clarify, because I think I haven't been clear: I am not arguing that Rhaegar was a bad fighter,

Ok.

On 8/29/2020 at 2:54 AM, Sly Wren said:

only that there is a case to be made he cheated now and again. That's where the question of his "impressivity" comes from.

The entire case consists of "I think this". 
You have no evidence of any kind.
There is significant evidence against it - the fact that he did lose to men that he other times beat, and the fact that he also beat such a wide variety of top names, many of whom have no reason to 'cheat.

On 8/29/2020 at 2:54 AM, Sly Wren said:

Martin makes it very clear early on with the Hand's Tourney: even really good fighters like Loras Tyrell will cheat.

You are not suggesting the kind of 'cheating' that Loras used. Which isn't actually cheating. It was just a clever trick.

On 8/29/2020 at 2:54 AM, Sly Wren said:

No--this is a tourney where Tywin has a very, very clear agenda: the marriage of Cersei to the crown prince.

Which changes nothing.

On 8/29/2020 at 2:54 AM, Sly Wren said:

And he trying to pull this off  knowing full well how hostile Aerys is towards him. He has incentive to make Rhaegar look good. And Rhaegar, prophecy boy with fancy armor, has incentive to look good, too. And to ally himself with Tywin, who many were already saying was the actual ruler of Westeros.

Which is still literally nothing more than "I think this". 
Its not impossible. It just requires some evidence for, and none against. The idea fails on both counts.

On 8/29/2020 at 2:54 AM, Sly Wren said:

Plus, the tourney happened after Tywin's takeover of the Westerlands from his father, where his brothers helped him. It's after Tywin took out the Reynes and Tarbeks--and his brothers helped him.

Still nothing.

On 8/29/2020 at 2:54 AM, Sly Wren said:

Tywin runs his family--full stop.

Thats not what the text says.

Quote

Tygett tried to be his own man, but he could never match your father, and that just made him angrier as the years went by.

Quote

Tywin despised his father, the weak-willed, fat, and ineffectual Lord Tytos Lannister, and his relations with his brothers Tygett and Gerion were notoriously stormy. 

Tywin and his brothers Tygett and Gerion did not get along. Especially Tygett. Tywin ruled - he was the eldest and it was his right, and the brothers would surely stand together in an existential family matter such as the Reyne rebellion, but thats not at all the same thing as them doing anything Tywin wanted.

Frankly, with what is said about Tygett's feelings and relationship with Tywin, I find it extremely unlikely that he'd be willing to throw a tourney bout for Tywin's wishes.
Gerion, maybe (not that there it any evidence, just entertaining the idea for the sake of it). We have less information to know either way. But the way Tygett is painted, definitely not.

Here's a little more on Tygett. 

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Lord Tytos's three eldest sons also acquitted themselves well upon the Stepstones. Knighted on the eve of the conflict, Ser Tywin Lannister fought in the retinue of the king's young heir, Aerys, Prince of Dragonstone, and was given the honor of dubbing him a knight at war's end. Kevan Lannister, squiring for the Red Lion, also won his spurs, and was knighted by Roger Reyne himself. Their brother Tygett was too young for knighthood, but his courage and skill at arms were remarked upon by all, for he slew a grown man in his first battle and three more in later fights, one of them a knight of the Golden Company. Yet whilst his cubs were fighting on the Stepstones, Tytos Lannister remained at Casterly Rock, in the company of a certain young woman of low birth who had caught his eye whilst serving as a wet nurse to his youngest son.

Tygett was a skilled and courageous fighter, even when he was too young to be knighted. By the Tourney he's 26 and in his prime.

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Later that same year, Lord Tywin Lannister, perhaps unwisely, held a great tournament at Lannisport in honor of Viserys's birth. Mayhaps it was meant to be a gesture toward reconciliation. There the wealth and power of House Lannister was displayed for all the realm to see. King Aerys at first refused to attend, then relented, but the queen and her new son were kept under confinement back at King's Landing. There, seated on his throne amongst hundreds of notables in the shadow of Casterly Rock, the king cheered lustily as his son Prince Rhaegar, newly knighted, unhorsed both Tygett and Gerion Lannister, and even overcame the gallant Ser Barristan Selmy, before falling in the champion's tilt to the renowned Kingsguard knight Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning.

The tourney was a display of the wealth and power of House Lannister.
Which perfectly explains why we don't see other knights competing there. Tywin wants to show off. The last thing that would do tat would be to have some Reach knight or similar beating the flower of the West. All we know of are KG and Knights of the West.

On 8/29/2020 at 2:54 AM, Sly Wren said:

Given all that context, it's really hard not to believe the first 12 knights Rhaegar beat were gimmes.

I didn't say it was hard to believe. I said it had no evidence at all. Which it doesn't. And his other results support this one fully, unlike your idea.

On 8/29/2020 at 2:54 AM, Sly Wren said:

So, not completely sure who Rhaegar fought--and it was almost certainly not Steffon unless he returned as a ghost.

Sure. The point is that GRRM, mistakes or not, had Rhaegar defeating prime names from all over the place.

On 8/29/2020 at 2:54 AM, Sly Wren said:

But Arthur and Barristan would have thrown to Rhaegar if he asked.

You have no evidence for this statement other than "I want to believe this".

On 8/29/2020 at 2:54 AM, Sly Wren said:

And Rhaegar had something to prove at Harrenhal--he was trying to hold a confab. Devil Daddy crashed his party.

While I agree, don't forget that this is supposition.

On 8/29/2020 at 2:54 AM, Sly Wren said:

And he only entered the tourney after competition had already started--he entered to prove something. Meaning: he had motive to do what he could to make sure he won, to get those who would help him to help.

Meaning: he wasn't 'showing off' on a pre-determined plan. 
If he wasn't planning to enter initially, its probable that he entered only as a response to the KotLT saga.

I'm not sure thats a fair conclusion though. I don't think we know he had no plan to enter, just that he didn't actually challenge anyone of the first few days - which we wouldn't expect whether he planned to enter from the start or not.

On 8/29/2020 at 2:54 AM, Sly Wren said:

The entire context of the opening of that chapter, leading into the "better knight" line, is about how just being a fighter isn't good enough. One must have honor to be a knight. Then, Barristan goes through his past and his regrets. Then says he should have been a "better knight" at Harrenhal.

The context is fighting with honor, not fighting with competence levels of skill. Meaning: the context is Barristan did something dishonorable in his fight with Rhaegar that wasn't about how "well" he fought.

It's not set in stone, but that context isn't equivocal.

Thats false logic though.
"Fighter + honour = knight", absolutely. Well, thats simplified, but we both agree thats part of Barristans' definition, what he's discussing.
But that does not equate to "better knight = better honour".
"Better knight" = better fighter ANDOR better fighter. 

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18 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Ned makes the same judgment about Stannis and Rhaegar re: brothels (the only judgment we see Ned make on Rhaegar).

Well, I don't recall reading anywhere in AGOT, Ned Stark mentioning Stannis and Rhaegar in the same sentence....

But there is this, which might help your argument.....

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if Lord Tywin dared to rouse the west, Robert would smash him as he had smashed Rhaegar Targaryen on the Trident. He could see it all so clearly.

He does in fact, compare Tywin to Rhaegar as Robert's punching bag.....

 

16 hours ago, frenin said:

Indeed it's a very dumb take, Stannis says that he'd kill Edric if the remaining three kings are killed, those kings all die, when he's about to kill him, Davos says that it's not possible. The idea that he was not going to kill Edric by then, when he spends a whole book trying to justify his inevitable decision, is indeed dumb, fanboyist. 

Whatever, alright..... Fine,

Stannis has some dirt in him.... This is ASOIAF after all...

Calling him a Zealot is an overstatement though(he's pretty agnostic), his character development and growth in later chapters/Books would tell you so...

And I am not unaware that he's gonna do shady stuff in the coming book...

16 hours ago, frenin said:

The rest is a waste of time,

I accept your concession,

It seems a thread discussed years ago when I was a toddler came to the same conclusion as well...

 

 

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19 hours ago, R2D said:

That's a reach. There's nothing to suggest GRRM was talking about it from an in world perspective. Bran thinks Rhaegar raped Lyanna which suggests that's the popular story. Only Dany's advisors really think it was love.

Since Rhaegar is pretty smart, he would probably catch on if Elia and his children died because of some random bandits along with Lyanna, and Tywin pressured him marry Cersei. 

I've read the SSM and the context--really seems like he's making sarcastic, minimalizing statements about Targ history and how it failed--and ties to in-world.

But no matter what, Martin says himself that until it's in the books, it's not canon.

So, we gotta wait.

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On 8/29/2020 at 3:36 PM, frenin said:

That's not barely surviving, a wound in a bad place, no matter how light it may be can prevent someone from riding. Besides that had he not sent his maester to  treat Barristan, he might have ridden himself to King's Landing, he arrived soon after anyway.

Dayne we know he was the best, so he'd likely would've killed Robert or anyone in a duel. White Bull we know that he was past his prime as it was proved during the Kingswood Band crisis. Whent  we know that he's boastful and that he was beaten by Ned and his six companions.

So...

 

They lost to Ned and his six companions, if they were able to cut through any number of knights, they wouldn't have died. Hightower was also defeated by the Kingswood Brotherhood... Maybe you're buying a little too much into their own self made hype??

Nor Garlan slays **thousands** of common fighting men.

 

The rebel army that is soon to be on his door and that is set to kill and oust his family is not enough??

 

Honestly.

 

What tactics are that??

It's strongly suggested that Reed saved Ned's life against Dayne. He doesn't mention the other two.

Any knight is vulnerable to "dishonorable" weapons and tactics like poisons, nets, back-stabbing. Just like Gregor Clegane was. So the three KG did slay five of the north's best, and as Ned admits, would have killed Ned too if not for Howland Reed. So we can only speculate how well they would have done against, say, 20. But it should be abundantly clear that in a battle as closely fought as the Trident, where victory came down to a single fight between two men, that the presence of three of the most formidable fighters in the realm at Rhaegar's side would have made the difference -- as would the presence of Tywin's 12,000-man army, which is also inexplicably absent considering this is supposed to be his plan all along and Rhaegar's victory is essential here.

It's not self-made hype. Everyone -- Ned, Selmy, Jaime -- give all three of them mad props for being the best of the best. Far superior than the boneheads in the KG now.

Garlan led the Tyrell van on the Blackwater and remained in the thick of the fighting all the way through. You don't do that without killing many, including other formidable knights like Guyard Morrigen, who was good enough to be chosen for the Rainbow Guard and to lead Stannis van on the BW. So we can quibble over thousands, but the fact remains one well-trained, well-armed and well-armored knight can have an enormous influence in a battle.

Rhaegar has his rebel army outside the city while Aerys has Rhaegar's wife and children (whom Rhaegar thinks are two of the three heads of the dragon) inside the Red Keep. Who has the upper hand here?

Crannogman tactics mentioned above: poisons, nets, back-stabbing . . . Yes, Reed specifically rescued Ned from Dayne, but don't you think the other two would have killed Ned after dispatching their five opponents?

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@corbon

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15 hours ago, corbon said:

You have no evidence of any kind.

I have context and circumstance. It counts.

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15 hours ago, corbon said:

There is significant evidence against it - the fact that he did lose to men that he other times beat, and the fact that he also beat such a wide variety of top names, many of whom have no reason to 'cheat.

He doesn't have to get everyone to throw against him to still cheat.

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15 hours ago, corbon said:

Which is still literally nothing more than "I think this". 

Its not impossible. It just requires some evidence for, and none against. The idea fails on both counts.

No--the context and Tywin's intent are clear. What is Tywin's intent at Lannisport? To get Cersei betrothed to Rhaegar. He tells Cersei--and makes her keep it secret. He gets Genna involved. It's all carefully planned and orchestrated.

He's wanted this for at least 3-4 years, according to the text. He wants it so much that, even when Aerys refuses, Tywin still holds out betrothing Cersei to anyone else, according to the text.

This is his goal--according to the text.

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15 hours ago, corbon said:

Thats not what the text says.

Tywin and his brothers Tygett and Gerion did not get along. Especially Tygett. Tywin ruled - he was the eldest and it was his right, and the brothers would surely stand together in an existential family matter such as the Reyne rebellion, but thats not at all the same thing as them doing anything Tywin wanted.

I never said they got along. I said Tywin ran  things and got his way--according to the very quote you gave.

"Tired?" His aunt pursed her lips. "I suppose he has a right to be. It has been hard for Kevan, living all his life in Tywin's shadow. It was hard for all my brothers. That shadow Tywin cast was long and black, and each of them had to struggle to find a little sun. Tygett tried to be his own man, but he could never match your father, and that just made him angrier as the years went by. Gerion made japes. Better to mock the game than to play and lose. But Kevan saw how things stood early on, so he made himself a place by your father's side." Feast, Jaime V

Tygett tried to be his own man, but could never match Tywin. Meaning: when it came to it, Tywin, not Tygett won. Gerion doesn't bother "playing the game" with Tywin--just makes jokes and gives in. And Kevan just gets in line.

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15 hours ago, corbon said:

Frankly, with what is said about Tygett's feelings and relationship with Tywin, I find it extremely unlikely that he'd be willing to throw a tourney bout for Tywin's wishes.

Of course he'd be unwilling. But Genna said it: he tried to be his own man but was never a match for Tywin. When it came to it, Tygett couldn't overcome Tywin. Tygett would be angry, but Tywin would prevail--according to Genna.

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15 hours ago, corbon said:

Here's a little more on Tygett. 

Tygett was a skilled and courageous fighter, even when he was too young to be knighted. By the Tourney he's 26 and in his prime.

All of which just points to the fact that he wouldn't like it, that it would make him angry, as Genna says. But if we take Genna at her word, Tywin, not Tygett, would get his way.

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15 hours ago, corbon said:

The tourney was a display of the wealth and power of House Lannister.
Which perfectly explains why we don't see other knights competing there. Tywin wants to show off. The last thing that would do tat would be to have some Reach knight or similar beating the flower of the West. All we know of are KG and Knights of the West.

Well, yeah--it's a tourney. But all  the Knights of the West lost to Rhaegar, at a tournament/event where we know for a fact that Tywin's goal is to get Cersei betrothed to Rhaegar. ETA: Rhaegar ended up the star. Rhaegar ended up being the one shown off. At an event where Tywin is trying to get Cersei betrothed to Rhaegar, Rhaegar, not Tywin, is clearly the star.

That's the key point: Tywin doesn't need to show of his wealth. Everyone knows it. He doesn't need to show off his status--people are already whispering that he's the real ruler, not Aerys. He doesn't need to show off his might--he's the guy who wiped out the Reynes and Tarbeks.

To get his goal, Tywin's got to manipulate/persuade a king who is already really averse to Tywin. Their relationship is getting toxic. But this is what Tywin wants--in that context, showing off his knights is not important. Getting people on his side who can help him make the marriage happen is.

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15 hours ago, corbon said:

I didn't say it was hard to believe. I said it had no evidence at all. Which it doesn't. And his other results support this one fully, unlike your idea.

I have context and circumstance.

It counts.

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15 hours ago, corbon said:

While I agree, don't forget that this is supposition.

Yes--but with a fair amount of context to support it

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15 hours ago, corbon said:

Meaning: he wasn't 'showing off' on a pre-determined plan. 
If he wasn't planning to enter initially, its probable that he entered only as a response to the KotLT saga.

Of course it wasn't pre-determined: he hadn't planned on Aerys. No one had planned on Aerys.

But given that he really seems to have had a plan at Harrenhal, the circumstance and contest make it likely that he entered the lists to further that plan. We have no idea how much he cared about the KotLT saga, only that Aerys made him try to hunt down the guy.

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15 hours ago, corbon said:

I'm not sure thats a fair conclusion though. I don't think we know he had no plan to enter, just that he didn't actually challenge anyone of the first few days - which we wouldn't expect whether he planned to enter from the start or not.

Okay--but the only other two tourneys we have him fighting--far as I can tell, he entered them from the start. Seems to be his modus operandi, though the sample is small.

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15 hours ago, corbon said:

Thats false logic though.
"Fighter + honour = knight", absolutely. Well, thats simplified, but we both agree thats part of Barristans' definition, what he's discussing.
But that does not equate to "better knight = better honour".
"Better knight" = better fighter ANDOR better fighter.

No: it's context, not math.

Barristan starts the chapter arguing with Shavepate about the hostage situation (whether or not to kill some kids) and Hizdar. Shavepate grumbles that Barristan's honor is stupid. That they will rue his "old man's honor." Barristan sticks to his guns.

ETA: He thinks it would be wiser, cleverer, even better not to be honorable. He could get a much better outcome (IE: getting rid of Daario) without honor. He's mocked for sticking to his honor--but he won't let it go. Art this point in his life, honor is what haunts him. What matters.

Then he goes to watch men training to be knights. And yes, he does think about their skill, how some have ferocity but not technique.

But then his thinking goes back to the importance of honor: though he probably should knight them now because he might be dead soon, he thinks he's a soiled knight and treasonous, and thus it would be better that he not soil them and just leave them as squires.

Then he goes further, saying:

As the afternoon melted into evening, he bid his charges to lay down their swords and shields and gather round. He spoke to them about what it meant to be a knight. "It is chivalry that makes a true knight, not a sword," he said. "Without honor, a knight is no more than a common killer. It is better to die with honor than to live without it." The boys looked at him strangely, he thought, but one day they would understand. Dance, The Kingbreaker

He's now shifted away from skill: no matter the skill, a man is not a true knight without honor. A true knight must have chivalry and honor, or he is less than a knight. This is the context when he goes into thinking about Rhaegar's plots, Harrenhal, and "not unhorsing" Rhaegar (interesting that he doesn't say "losing", but whatever).

It's in this context that he regrets not being a better knight--in a chapter full of his asserting his honor. The need for honor. And teaching his squires that honor, not skill, make a true knight. ETA: This old knight, at the end of his life, doesn't regret his skill or lack of it. He's deeply concerned with his honor--all chapter long.

Context counts.

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