How Tywin Killed Rhaegar: A Tale of Cheats and Plotters

[Bloodraven’s Spider]

Very interesting post. I remember reading somewhere that Tywin was behind Lyanna’s kidnapping (as the 3 knights from TKOTLT are all Lannister men I believe)

Tywin and Rhaegar we’re definitely allies, Pycelle has always been the more interesting person here. I’ve always wondered how much does he know? (And Varys as well) 

Who told Ned to go to the TOJ? Pycelle? Vary’s? Who would have known that information? Pycelle? Where was Rhaegar? Who knew where was hiding out? 

 

[Ser Leftwich]

35 minutes ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

Very interesting post. I remember reading somewhere that Tywin was behind Lyanna’s kidnapping (as the 3 knights from TKOTLT are all Lannister men I believe)

SNIP

 

This aspect of that theory is completely false:

"One served a pitchfork knight, one a porcupine, while the last attended a knight with two towers on his surcoat, a sigil all crannogmen know well."

The three knights are Haigh (pitchfork, vassals of the Freys), Blount (porcupine, crownlands), and Frey (two towers, riverlands). Absolutely not Lannister vassals.

[Sly Wren]

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If Rhaegar has been plotting to overthrow Aerys all this time, and Aerys knows or even just suspects this, then why is Aerys protecting Rhaegar now that he has committed an act that would disqualify him as a potential king in the eyes of the realm? Wouldn't this be the perfect opportunity to get rid of a troublesome son in favor of his preferred heir? I know he's mad, but he's not stupid.

@John Suburbs   

Aerys is a bit suspicious of Rhaegar--but I doubt he knows how in cahoots he is with Tywin. Aerys' anger is squarely on Tywin--and vice versa. With Tywin to draw Aerys' ire, Rhaegar can play the dutiful son.

But Rhaegar was clearly plotting against his father.

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And more to the point, why would either Tywin or Rhaegar think this stunt with Lyanna is a good way to put Rhaegar on the throne, let alone somehow make Cersei a queen (#3)?

Because it stirred up a war.

Tywin has a history of using other people's grievances to take out his enemies--he tried it at Duskendale and almost succeeded. He did succeed at the Red Wedding with the Freys.

He and Aerys' relathionship was beyond toxic. And the country (Starks, Tullys, Arryns, and Baratheons) were planning marriages, allying, getting ready to make a power move. Tywin tried to join by marrying Jaime to Lysa Arryn only to have Aerys name Jaime to the Kingsguard.

So--how to get Aerys off the throne? Use other people's grievances. Note: Brandon, not Rickard, is sent word of Lyanna's disappearance. Betting that Brandon would blow up was a very good bet.

Then all Tywin and others have to do is keep needling and stirring up trouble until it all explodes. Baelish does the same basic thing in the current books.

Then--Tywin and Rhaegar wait for the right moment, when Aerys is in trouble. Rhaegar saves the day. Tywin secures the city for Rhaegar (probably "letting" Aerys die of an "accident") and voila! Rhaegar is king.

Now, all that has to happen is Elia, oh so sickly Elia, has a terrible "illness" or "accident" and voila! Cersei is queen.

They don't have to control all the variables--they can't. They just have to be willing to stir the pot, reassess, and stir again. But betting that stirring up trouble at this point in time might create an opportunity? A very good bet indeed.

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Why doesn't R&L come forward with the truth (since the kidnapping story is most certainly a lie) when her family is being executed and war is breaking out all over the land? Are they really this shallow? And I still question how this whole kidnap story got out if it never happened. Who started it, and why?

Well, this assumes that Lyanna would have much say--and even in the most romantic take possible if you go with R+L, Rhaegar, not Lyanna, has power here.

And Rhaegar wants the throne and devil daddy dead.

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And now that Rhaegar has lit the match that led to this dire threat to the Targ dynasty, why would Aerys want him in command of an army -- an army that can then be used to depose him once the rebels are taken care of?

Because Aerys doesn't know he's being played.

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Plus, I think you overestimate how much Rhaegar and Tywin were plotting together prior to all of this. Tywin made a quip about having another king ready of something happened to Aerys in Duskendale, but that's about the extent of it that's been revealed so far.

Rhaegar was right there as they were planning the move to get his dad dead. Rhaegar (and every courtier not in a coma) knows that Tywin and Aerys's relationship is a toxic disaster zone. And Rhaegar does absolutely nothing to stop Tywin.

Rhaegar's absolutely in on this. Tywin might be driving the bus, but Rhaegar's riding shotgun.

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Tyrion knows nothing about any of this, so it's just as likely that he is implying Pycelle was instrumental in driving the wedge between Aerys and Rhaegar.

Very, very possible. The comments might just be markers for the reader. But Tyrion's no fool (most of the time) when it comes to his family. And he's not one to underestimate his father too often. Plus, what you are suggesting wouldn't have "betrayed" Rhaegar, or gotten Rhaegar killed. I don't think.

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At Lannisport, remember that Rhaegar is not yet married to Elia nor was he on Aerys' shit list, so Tywin could easily have been trying to curry favor with both Rhaegar and Aerys in order to smooth the betrothal to Cersei.

With Rhaegar? Yes. But though the relationship got much worse later, Tywin would have to be a fool not to know not to trust Aerys' word. He presented Cersei to Rhaegar. He got his men to throw to Rhaegar. He wants the marriage to go through--badly. It seems very unlikely that he hadn't gotten Rhaegar on board for this.

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If they really were plotting, and the Tourney at Harrenhal was a chance to bring all of the plotters together, then I can't imagine Tywin not being there -- regardless of Jaime's investiture.

Or--Tywin funds it and stays away so as to not alert Aerys to the fact that he's in cahoots with Rhaegar.

[Sly Wren]

3 hours ago, frenin said:

 

1. How??
2. How did Tywin help to incite the war??

See my post above to John Suburbs: https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/157595-how-tywin-killed-rhaegar-a-tale-of-cheats-and-plotters/&do=findComment&comment=8567555

As for how Tywin took Lyanna--or, tried to take her and she ran (like Arya does)--that link I gave you runs down the argument.

If you want me to recount it here I will.

3 hours ago, frenin said:

• If he wants Rhaegar to win... Why not help him??

He did--he and Rhaegar didn't help Aerys. They waited until what looked like a good time. Rhaegar went to the Trident. Tywin marched to secure Aerys (and presumably help him have an accident). Then Rhaegar could become king with much less muss and fuss--the hero who won the Trident and took the place of the Mad King.

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But he had little to do with Lyanna's actual death. And even if he tried to get her killed, that's not a guarantee.

Agreed--which is why I'm pretty sure he tried to get her killed before the war. It would explain Brandon's calling for Rhaegar to die instead of asking for his sister: someone told Brandon that Rhaegar killed Lyanna, betting that Brandon would lose it. That's why Brandon gets word before Rickard.

3 hours ago, frenin said:

Either Tywin had Aerys's implicit blessing and then Aerys backed off and humiliated him or he had nothing and he was acting on the hopes that Aerys saw how good was the marriage for him.

As Aerys would prove, Rhaegar's opinion on the matter was irrelevant and as such, plotting with Rhaegar would not have got him anything.

There's no chance Tywin would count on Aerys--he would need allies to try to convince Aerys. Pycelle, etc. And since Rhaegar was still in good standing, and since Rhaegar is the one meeting Cersei before the "betrothal," really seems like Rhaegar was on board--makes sense: Tywin is extremely able. Rhaegar would want such a man on his side to help him take over and follow the prophecy.

3 hours ago, frenin said:

We have Rhaegar's track record and it's indeed impressive. 

Barristan is talking about being a better knight to defeat Rhaegar not that he trew the tilt.

1. Is it impressive? We have record of him in three tourneys, far as I can tell.

The first? The one where Tywin wants him to marry Cersei--Rhaegar somehow defeats 14 Lannisters in a row. That seems . . . convenient.

The second is at Storm's End--I'll spare you my suspicions about Steffon Baratheon. But Rhaegar did reasonably well.

The third? Harrenhal--where he had enormous motivation to cheat and a few people willing to throw to him.

And Barristan spends that whole chapter thinking about honor and knightliness, how if a man is a good fighter without honor, he's not a knight.

Then he calls himself unknightly for losing to Rhaegar--not a poor fighter, a poor knight.

Something's up.

[Sly Wren]

2 hours ago, Orm said:

I think your understating his obsession, stupidity or madness (whatever you wanna call it)....

For the simple fact that he isn't king Largely due to his own actions.... He knew what he was doing would put him at the very least, in so much trouble that he can't Pacify it in his lifetime, let alone doing great kingly stuff....

That's not even considering what the hell he was expecting his certified mad-cunt of a dad would do..... And we are supposed to believe that this emo prince is supposed to be an "intelligent" individual.....

His actions speak otherwise.....

Very fair.

2 hours ago, Orm said:

Maybe its impressive...

But I figure Rhaegar's position as crown prince (sole Targ prince for more than 15 years) would always make his competition not give their all...

And Considering in the only battle he was ever at, his younger 2nd cousin(who was injured prior to the Trident) moped the floor with him in horse-back, It is pretty hard to give him the benefit of the doubt that he earned his victories....

The only thing which gives him any real credibility is Barri B vouching for him and the wound he managed to give Robert....

But then again Barri B is heavily biased and Bobby B wasn't even that bothered with the wound that he sent his Maestar to treat Barri B....

[Sly Wren]

1 hour ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

Very interesting post. I remember reading somewhere that Tywin was behind Lyanna’s kidnapping (as the 3 knights from TKOTLT are all Lannister men I believe)

Yup--that was my fevered brainchild.

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Tywin and Rhaegar we’re definitely allies, Pycelle has always been the more interesting person here. I’ve always wondered how much does he know? (And Varys as well) 

Who told Ned to go to the TOJ? Pycelle? Vary’s? Who would have known that information? Pycelle? Where was Rhaegar? Who knew where was hiding out?

Yes--Pycelle's info would be fun to get--too bad he didn't leave a diary.

But on the toj--I'm of the belief that the KG called Ned to a parlay--maybe Ned sent them word first, but I think that was a planned parlay that became a fight.

52 minutes ago, Ser Leftwich said:

This aspect of that theory is completely false:

"One served a pitchfork knight, one a porcupine, while the last attended a knight with two towers on his surcoat, a sigil all crannogmen know well."

The three knights are Haigh (pitchfork, vassals of the Freys), Blount (porcupine, crownlands), and Frey (two towers, riverlands). Absolutely not Lannister vassals.

They aren't Tywin's vassals. They're his lackeys.

Freys are tied to Lannisters via Gemma. And Walder has a chip on his shoulder the size of the moon. The Haighs are Frey vassals. And in the same book where we learn about the Knight of the Laughing Tree, both houses do something absolutely vile to benefit Tywin--the Red Wedding. They aren't vassals--but they will do his very, very dirty work for him to puff themselves up.

And Blount: Boros Blount is clearly Tywin's lackey--Baelish says it flat out and when Boros comes to get Sansa, he's wearing a Lannister lion pin. According to Jorah, around the time of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, Boros had a reputation for being a good jouster--I really think he's the one the KOTLT defeated.

He's a crap KG who likes beating up Sansa. He's a coward. He let Tyrion take Tommen. Cersei throws him in prison. But Tywin reinstates him--why? The only reason Tywin keeps brainless brutes around is because they are useful to him (Lorch, the Mountain).

Boros hasn't done anything so far to be useful to Tywin in the current generation--he must have been useful before the books start. And he now has a penchant for beating Stark maids (Sansa).

So yes--I think the defeated knights could very well be the ones who attacked Lyanna.

But that like Arya, Lyanna ran when the Lannister men came for her.

[frenin]

3 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

See my post above to John Suburbs: https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/157595-how-tywin-killed-rhaegar-a-tale-of-cheats-and-plotters/&do=findComment&comment=8567555

As for how Tywin took Lyanna--or, tried to take her and she ran (like Arya does)--that link I gave you runs down the argument.

If you want me to recount it here I will.

 

I have a few buts with it.

 

1. So far we can tell there is not a history of it, Duskendale was not related to Tywin, so far we know, and the Red Wedding happened two decades later.
2. Brandon isn't sent a note so far we know, we don't know who told him but a safe bet is on Lyanna's own guards.

But the rest does sound convincing.

 

 

3 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

He did--he and Rhaegar didn't help Aerys. They waited until what looked like a good time. Rhaegar went to the Trident. Tywin marched to secure Aerys (and presumably help him have an accident). Then Rhaegar could become king with much less muss and fuss--the hero who won the Trident and took the place of the Mad King.

But why not go to the Trident, smash the rebels and then march together to King's Landing?? The city did not need to be secured ina loyalist win scenario.

After the rebels are succesfully defeated, who is going to care about Aerys's fate??

 

 

3 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Agreed--which is why I'm pretty sure he tried to get her killed before the war. It would explain Brandon's calling for Rhaegar to die instead of asking for his sister: someone told Brandon that Rhaegar killed Lyanna, betting that Brandon would lose it. That's why Brandon gets word before Rickard.

Brandon calls Rhaegar to die as angry code word for duelling and we don't know what else Brandon demanded. Our only account on hthe events is a drunk Jaime.

 

 

3 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

See my post above to John Suburbs: https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/157595-how-tywin-killed-rhaegar-a-tale-of-cheats-and-plotters/&do=findComment&comment=8567555

As for how Tywin took Lyanna--or, tried to take her and she ran (like Arya does)--that link I gave you runs down the argument.

If you want me to recount it here I will.

It doesn't make much sense if Aerys is only following Aerys's advice by then, if so, Tywin needs to be assure that Aerys is following the plan and only Aerys can give him that, anything else is a castle of sand.

 

 

3 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

1. Is it impressive? We have record of him in three tourneys, far as I can tell.

And he ends in 2nd place, 2nd place, 1st place. Which is impressive.

Why would Brandon Stark or Robert Baratheon lose to him on purpose??

 

[R2D]

I don't understand your premise very well.

Are you saying that Rhaegar and Tywin were in cahoots and Rhaegar was going to marry Cersei to get Tywin on side? If that's so why didn't Rhaegar impregnate Cersei and not Lyanna? Since he was going to marry her anyway. 

[Sly Wren]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

I have a few buts with it.

1. So far we can tell there is not a history of it, Duskendale was not related to Tywin, so far we know, and the Red Wedding happened two decades later.
2. Brandon isn't sent a note so far we know, we don't know who told him but a safe bet is on Lyanna's own guards.

3. But the rest does sound convincing.

1. No--no more than Walder Freys' issues with Robb were connected to Tywin. But Tywin used Walder's grievance and to get him to do the Red Wedding. And gave him assurances.

Now--the Darklyns may have rebelled all on their own. But it was idiotic--unless someone had given them assurances. And Tywin was Hand. Did he give them assurances? Don't know. But did he exploit the situation? Yes. He even goaded Aerys--the World Book says flat out that Aerys wouldn't have gone to Duskendale without Tywin's goading:

The Defiance of Duskendale began quietly enough. Lord Denys, seeing that Aerys's erratic behavior had begun to strain his relations with Lord Tywin, refused to pay the taxes expected of him and instead invited the king to come to Duskendale and hear his petition. It seems most unlikely that King Aerys would ever have considered accepting this invitation...until Lord Tywin advised him to refuse in the strongest possible terms, whereupon the king decided to accept, informing Grand Maester Pycelle and the small council that he meant to settle this matter himself and bring the defiant Darklyn to heel. World Book:The Targaryen Kings, Aerys II

So--only became a hostage because Tywin exploited his arrogance. And then Tywin used the hostage crisis to try to kill Aerys--and he almost succeeded.

2. We don't know how Brandon found out--but we are shown in the novels how to get Starks to rush off: the letter from Lysa, goading Cat and Ned; and the pink letter, goading Jon. Even Robb is goaded via letter--though he's a bit more careful. Really seems like Martin is showing us how someone got Brandon to rush off--and if Lyanna was attacked, really seems unlikely her guards were left alive.

3.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

But why not go to the Trident, smash the rebels and then march together to King's Landing?? The city did not need to be secured ina loyalist win scenario.

After the rebels are succesfully defeated, who is going to care about Aerys's fate??

Because the point wasn't just to win, it was to get rid of Aerys.

Aerys needs not to just be deposed--that could set off another Dance of the Dragons (as Rhaegar the student was well aware). Aerys needs to be decomposing. But it is MUCH better PR for Rhaegar if he doesn't have to kill his father himself. If Aerys has an "accident" while in the city, only guarded by Tywin's son--well, wouldn't that be convenient?

Plus, securing the city and x-ing Aerys undermines any attempts by Aerys loyalists to hold onto the throne.

So--Rhaegar goes to the Trident with superior forces; Tywin secures Aerys' demise. And thus--all is well.

And if Rhaegar loses? Tywin is set up to play the oppostie side--he is the kind of man to plan for contingencies. And that's exactly what he did.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Brandon calls Rhaegar to die as angry code word for duelling and we don't know what else Brandon demanded. Our only account on hthe events is a drunk Jaime.

Maybe it's code--and yes, we only have Jaime. But really seems like if Brandon thought his baby sister and riding buddy were alive, he'd ask for her and people would have heard him.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

It doesn't make much sense if Aerys is only following Aerys's advice by then, if so, Tywin needs to be assure that Aerys is following the plan and only Aerys can give him that, anything else is a castle of sand.

Okay--I think I may have missed your point--are you asking how Tywin could be sure of Aerys' reactions? If so: he doesn't know for sure everything Aerys will do. But Aerys is already burnign people. The idea that he'll go to far--that's a gimme.

Tywin doesn't have to know what Aerys will do--just has to stir the pot, watch what happens, and stir again. Like Baelish does with the Starks and Lannisters.

But--if I've missed your point, please clarify and I'll give this another go.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

And he ends in 2nd place, 2nd place, 1st place. Which is impressive.

Why would Brandon Stark or Robert Baratheon lose to him on purpose??

1. He ends in second place--in a tourney where Tywin is trying to impress him and set up a marriage and where 14 of his 16 opponents are Lannisters or Lannister men: not impressive.

2. He ends in second place at Storm's End--impressive--though I have a suspicion that Steffon would throw to him. And, as @Orm noted above, the fighters have plenty of reason not to give it their all.

3. He defeats Royce and Brandon at Harrenhal--very likely that's legit, though, again, Royce might have been unwilling to give it his all. And we don't know Brandon's jousting ability/.experience. But Selmy and Arthur? Arthur's his bestie and fully in cahoots with Rhaegar. And Selmy thinks his loss was unkightly.

So. . . not terrible, but all of the above really doesn't make Rhaegar look stellar.

[Sly Wren]

@R2D

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I don't understand your premise very well.

Are you saying that Rhaegar and Tywin were in cahoots and Rhaegar was going to marry Cersei to get Tywin on side? If that's so why didn't Rhaegar impregnate Cersei and not Lyanna? Since he was going to marry her anyway.

My apologies--I put in a lot of stuff. Should probably have been more straightforward.

1. Rhaegar and Tywin are in cahoots because they both want to depose (and kill) Aerys.

2. Tywin also wants to marry Cersei to Rhaegar--and it seems likely that Rhaegar went along with the idea, until Aerys insisted on the marriage to Elia.

3. Kidnapping and impregnating Cersei is NOT what Tywin would want--he'd want Elia dead and Cersei the unequivocal Queen, not paramour. He'd want any child of theirs born a solid nine months after the wedding--no worries about legitimacy and all of that.

No--Tywin would need Elia to have an "illness" or "accident" once Rhaegar had married Elia.

[R2D]

5 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

@R2D

 

 

 

My apologies--I put in a lot of stuff. Should probably have been more straightforward.

 

1. Rhaegar and Tywin are in cahoots because they both want to depose (and kill) Aerys.

 

2. Tywin also wants to marry Cersei to Rhaegar--and it seems likely that Rhaegar went along with the idea, until Aerys insisted on the marriage to Elia.

 

3. Kidnapping and impregnating Cersei is NOT what Tywin would want--he'd want Elia dead and Cersei the unequivocal Queen, not paramour. He'd want any child of theirs born a solid nine months after the wedding--no worries about legitimacy and all of that.

 

No--Tywin would need Elia to have an "illness" or "accident" once Rhaegar had married Elia.

 

But how would Tywin know Lyanna would die or that Rhaegar would marry Cersei over Lyanna? And if they were closely communicating he would know Rhaegar ran away with Lyanna for love. (GRRM called him a "lovestruck prince.") 

[corbon]

5 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

1. Is it impressive?

Yes. 
In three tourneys he lost at most two bouts, to the two knights considered to be the greatest of their day. Each of which he also beat.
No one has as good a record. No one. Both Dayne and Selmy have a 1-2 record against him. 

I think he benefits here from rarely entering the lists. I doubt that such a record could be sustained long term. But it is the record he has.

5 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

We have record of him in three tourneys, far as I can tell.

Indeed.

5 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

The first? The one where Tywin wants him to marry Cersei--Rhaegar somehow defeats 14 Lannisters in a row. That seems . . . convenient.

That seems... a rather unfair appraisal.
It was held at Lannisport, its no surprise that there were predominantly western knights there. In fact we don't actually know of any non-western  and non-court knights there (there may have been, we just don't know of any yet). It was an affair Tywin arranged. It may well have been a 'local' event.

He also defeated Barristan the Bold and only lost to Ser Arthur Dayne.

• Prince Rhaegar Targaryen defeated Gerion Lannister^[16]
• Prince Rhaegar Targaryend defeated Tygett Lannister^[16]
• Prince Rhaegar Targaryen defeated twelve knights of the westerlands^[17]
• Prince Rhaegar Targaryen defeated Ser Barristan Selmy^[16]
• Ser Arthur Dayne defeated Prince Rhaegar Targaryen^[16]

5 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

The second is at Storm's End--I'll spare you my suspicions about Steffon Baratheon. But Rhaegar did reasonably well.

• Rhaegar Targaryen defeated Lord Steffon Baratheon
• Rhaegar Targaryen defeated Jason Mallister
• Rhaegar Targaryen defeated Oberyn Martell
• Rhaegar Targaryen defeated Simon Toyne
• Rhaegar Targaryen defeated Arthur Dayne broke 12 lances (13 tilts)^[19]
• Barristan Selmy defeated Rhaegar Targaryen

For all your baseless "suspicions", thats a pretty impressive list, from a  wide variety of backgrounds, almost all notable names.
12 lances broken in a 13-tilt win of Dayne, is not faking it on either side.

5 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

The third? Harrenhal--where he had enormous motivation to cheat and a few people willing to throw to him.

Baseless accusation. 

• Rhaegar Targaryen defeated Yohn Royce
• Rhaegar Targaryen defeated Brandon Stark
• Rhaegar Targaryen defeated Arthur Dayne
• Rhaegar Targaryen defeated Barristan Selmy

Arthur Dayne has already beaten him once before, so there is no logic in any claim that he 'throws' bouts against Rhaegar. Likewise Barristan Selmy. 
There is no way in hell Brandon Stark would ever throw a tilt to Rhaegar (and Brandon is a famous horseman, and jousting 75% horsemanship, so he was almost certainly no slouch).
Yohn Royce is a noted name. We don't know about his jousting record that I recall (good or bad) but he's a good enough swordsman to beat both Ned and his master-at-arms together. And nothing suggests he was a Rhaegar supporter.

5 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

And Barristan spends that whole chapter thinking about honor and knightliness, how if a man is a good fighter without honor, he's not a knight.

Then he calls himself unknightly for losing to Rhaegar--not a poor fighter, a poor knight.

Something's up.

Barristan does not  call himself unknightly, or a poor knight. That is a misleading paraphrase. He wishes he had been better. That is all. Every second-place-getter wishes they had been 'better'. That does not relegate them to being 'poor', or un-"knightly".

2 hours ago, frenin said:

And he ends in 2nd place, 2nd place, 1st place. Which is impressive.

Why would Brandon Stark or Robert Baratheon lose to him on purpose??

Or Tygett Lannister (not a Tywin lackey actually, and a noted warrior), Arthur Dayne, Jason Mallister, Symon Toyne, Oberyn Martell.

This argument comes up frequently, and its always dishonest in its presentation, and consists 100% of "I hate Rhaegar so I've decided that anyone he beat threw the match to him because it suits me". No evidence is ever presented and no argument ever makes sense across the wide and impressive spectrum of men Rhaegar defeated in tourney tilts.

Able, that above all.
No matter what you think of his motivations, potential actions etc.

[Orm]

12 hours ago, frenin said:

is, if not he wouldn't joust at all. He was simply bad at it

No, he was indifferent, didn't care.... This is coming from Narcissistic Cersei who spites at Bobby B....

 

12 hours ago, frenin said:

One of the best of his time yes. I can only think of Barri B or Dayne having a better record.

Barri B and Dayne both are exceptional fighters . Rhaegar isn't....

I'll maintain my skepticism that others went easy on him until he got a dose of reality hammered into him at the Trident...

12 hours ago, frenin said:

So were Baelor Breakspear or Baelon the Brave. No one cared and give their all.

Really?? Neither of those were sole princes. They were crown Princes with Sons and brothers...

Rhaegar was the sole son of Aerys who is known as the mad king for more than 15 years... Is it really that much of a stretch to think that other knights would be  negatively intimidated by that???....

12 hours ago, frenin said:

Robert is very tall but he's not the tallest dude around.  Both Gregor and Sandor are taller than him and they are all jousters with renown.

I went back in the books to find is there any mention of Robert 'Demon of the Trident' Baratheon on horse-back...

It seems I was wrong and you were right...

 Apparently, according to Eddard Stark, Robert Baratheon was a Horned God when he was sitting his horse, antlered helm and Warhammer....

So I secede....

12 hours ago, frenin said:

This is a very dumb take. It has little to do one with another...  Melees, which Robert is an expect at, also have battles on horseback.

How so? I watched the show first. There in the DVDs Bobby B says he hammered the Emo prince on foot...

But then I read the Books and it wasn't clear anymore with various versions..

Until I saw GRRM,  in an interview where made it clear it was on horse-back,

Go to 23:11 minute mark...

Since Bobby B wasn't mediocre on horse-back.... And more of a 'Horned God'...

A better question would be, How much of an Arrogant douche was Rhaegar to think he could take Robert on?

12 hours ago, frenin said:

That the latter has a fight in it,  the latter was a melee.

???

[frenin]

8 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

1. No--no more than Walder Freys' issues with Robb were connected to Tywin. But Tywin used Walder's grievance and to get him to do the Red Wedding. And gave him assurances.

Nope, Walder hatched the plot all on his own, he went to Tywin in search pf a protector.

 

8 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Now--the Darklyns may have rebelled all on their own. But it was idiotic--unless someone had given them assurances. And Tywin was Hand. Did he give them assurances? Don't know. But did he exploit the situation? Yes. He even goaded Aerys--the World Book says flat out that Aerys wouldn't have gone to Duskendale without Tywin's goading:

The Defiance of Duskendale began quietly enough. Lord Denys, seeing that Aerys's erratic behavior had begun to strain his relations with Lord Tywin, refused to pay the taxes expected of him and instead invited the king to come to Duskendale and hear his petition. It seems most unlikely that King Aerys would ever have considered accepting this invitation...until Lord Tywin advised him to refuse in the strongest possible terms, whereupon the king decided to accept, informing Grand Maester Pycelle and the small council that he meant to settle this matter himself and bring the defiant Darklyn to heel. World Book:The Targaryen Kings, Aerys II

So--only became a hostage because Tywin exploited his arrogance. And then Tywin used the hostage crisis to try to kill Aerys--and he almost succeeded.

Fair enough.

 

 

8 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

2. We don't know how Brandon found out--but we are shown in the novels how to get Starks to rush off: the letter from Lysa, goading Cat and Ned; and the pink letter, goading Jon. Even Robb is goaded via letter--though he's a bit more careful. Really seems like Martin is showing us how someone got Brandon to rush off--and if Lyanna was attacked, really seems unlikely her guards were left alive.

That's a very faulty reasoning.

 

 

8 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Maybe it's code--and yes, we only have Jaime. But really seems like if Brandon thought his baby sister and riding buddy were alive, he'd ask for her and people would have heard him.

Who says that he didn't do and people didn't hear it?? That's the thing with forming our judgements by a single line of a drunken man.

 

 

 

8 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Because the point wasn't just to win, it was to get rid of Aerys.

Aerys needs not to just be deposed--that could set off another Dance of the Dragons (as Rhaegar the student was well aware). Aerys needs to be decomposing. But it is MUCH better PR for Rhaegar if he doesn't have to kill his father himself. If Aerys has an "accident" while in the city, only guarded by Tywin's son--well, wouldn't that be convenient?

Plus, securing the city and x-ing Aerys undermines any attempts by Aerys loyalists to hold onto the throne.

So--Rhaegar goes to the Trident with superior forces; Tywin secures Aerys' demise. And thus--all is well.

And if Rhaegar loses? Tywin is set up to play the oppostie side--he is the kind of man to plan for contingencies. And that's exactly what he did.

And Rhaegar intended to get rid of Aerys regardless, so what's the point?? If Rhaegar wins the Trident and smash the rebellion as he intended and not the other way around, Aerys is done. So any covered up is moot. 

So if Tywin wants Rhaegar to win so much, helping him out is the best way.

 

 

8 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Okay--I think I may have missed your point--are you asking how Tywin could be sure of Aerys' reactions? If so: he doesn't know for sure everything Aerys will do. But Aerys is already burnign people. The idea that he'll go to far--that's a gimme.

Tywin doesn't have to know what Aerys will do--just has to stir the pot, watch what happens, and stir again. Like Baelish does with the Starks and Lannisters.

But--if I've missed your point, please clarify and I'll give this another go

Yep.

That Tywin doesn't know how Aerys would react i think it's fairly obvious,  that you say that Tywin must have been in cahoots with someone because otherwise him being so confident doesn't make sense, then the only person that was capable of giving him such is Aerys. Not Rhaegar, not Pycelle.

And it fits Aerys, to give Tywin and then deny it him in public thus humiliating him.

 

 

8 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

1. He ends in second place--in a tourney where Tywin is trying to impress him and set up a marriage and where 14 of his 16 opponents are Lannisters or Lannister men: not impressive.

2. He ends in second place at Storm's End--impressive--though I have a suspicion that Steffon would throw to him. And, as @Orm noted above, the fighters have plenty of reason not to give it their all.

3. He defeats Royce and Brandon at Harrenhal--very likely that's legit, though, again, Royce might have been unwilling to give it his all. And we don't know Brandon's jousting ability/.experience. But Selmy and Arthur? Arthur's his bestie and fully in cahoots with Rhaegar. And Selmy thinks his loss was unkightly.

So. . . not terrible, but all of the above really doesn't make Rhaegar look stella

 

1. Fair enough.
2. We have no reason to think that Steffon  Baratheon was throwing the tilt. And as noted to @Orm, that only happens with uneskilled highborn people.
3. So you don't know who is throwing the tilt...

 

2 hours ago, Orm said:

No, he was indifferent, didn't care.... This is coming from Narcissistic Cersei who spites at Bobby B....

Seriously, this comes from a Bobby's stan, it makes you no good, trying to argue things¡s as blatant as this.

 

Quote

1a: marked by a lack of interest, enthusiasm, or concern for something : APATHETICindifferent to suffering and poverty

b: marked by no special liking for or dislike of somethingindifferent about which task he was given

2a: being neither good nor bad : MEDIOCRE

does indifferent work

b: being neither right nor wrong

3: being neither excessive nor inadequate : MODERATE

hills of indifferent size

4: marked by impartiality : UNBIASED

5a: that does not matter one way or the other

b: of no importance or value one way or the other

6: characterized by lack of active quality : NEUTRAL

an indifferent chemical

7a: not differentiated

indifferent tissues of the human body

b: capable of development in more than one direction especially : not yet embryologically determined

 

Jousting was never for the man.

 

 

2 hours ago, Orm said:

Barri B and Dayne both are exceptional fighters . Rhaegar isn't....

I'll maintain my skepticism that others went easy on him until he got a dose of reality hammered into him at the Trident...

You tell me the correlation between jousting and fighting in a melee combat in the middle of the battlefield. I can't really find one.

 

 

2 hours ago, Orm said:

Really?? Neither of those were sole princes. They were crown Princes with Sons and brothers...

Rhaegar was the sole son of Aerys who is known as the mad king for more than 15 years... Is it really that much of a stretch to think that other knights would be  negatively intimidated by that???....

Hmm yes, because by the time Rhaegar entered the tilts, he already had a brother.

 

 

2 hours ago, Orm said:

I went back in the books to find is there any mention of Robert 'Demon of the Trident' Baratheon on horse-back...

It seems I was wrong and you were right...

 Apparently, according to Eddard Stark, Robert Baratheon was a Horned God when he was sitting his horse, antlered helm and Warhammer....

So I secede....

You lost me here, what that has to do with anything?? This is a  very weird way of goalpost. 

What has that to do with the fact that Robert just sucked at jousting unlike people far taller than him like Duncan the Tall, his own great  grandfather Lyonel or the Clegane brothers??

 

 

2 hours ago, Orm said:

How so? I watched the show first. There in the DVDs Bobby B says he hammered the Emo prince on foot...

But then I read the Books and it wasn't clear anymore with various versions..

Until I saw GRRM,  in an interview where made it clear it was on horse-back,

 

 

I would say to you that you search the concept of tourney melee and its different types but this would be quicker.

 

Quote

Warm days and cool nights and the sweet taste of wine. He remembered Brandon’s laughter, and Robert’s berserk valor in the melee, the way he laughed as he unhorsed men left and right. He remembered Jaime Lannister, a golden youth in scaled white armor, kneeling on the grass in front of the king’s pavilion and making his vows to protect and defend King Aerys. Afterward, Ser Oswell Whent helped Jaime to his feet, and the White Bull himself, Lord Commander Ser Gerold Hightower, fastened the snowy cloak of the Kingsguard about his shoulders. All six White Swords were there to welcome their newest brother. Yet when the jousting began, the day belonged to Rhaegar Targaryen. The crown prince wore the armor he would die in: gleaming black plate with the three-headed dragon of his House wrought in rubies on the breast. A plume of scarlet silk streamed behind him when he rode, and it seemed no lance could touch him. Brandon fell to him, and Bronze Yohn Royce, and even the splendid Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning.

Jousting was not the only sport people used horses, they were used in melees for example.  They are not correlated, they really aren't.

 

2 hours ago, Orm said:

Go to 23:11 minute mark...

Since Bobby B wasn't mediocre on horse-back.... And more of a 'Horned God'...

A better question would be, How much of an Arrogant douche was Rhaegar to think he could take Robert on?

Who the hell has said that he was mediocre on horseback??

 

 

2 hours ago, Orm said:

???

See, this would have ended if you have just listened instead of keep going on about how Robert is the best.

 

They are not related

Seriously they are not related

 

This point is so absurd to point out that is very tiresome.

 

We see a melee being on horseback, even at the very end.

So yes, Robert sucks at jousting, that doesn't disqualify for being a great warrior, nor does that mean that Rhaegar was a fraud. The idea that you can't be a great at  horsemanship and suck at jousting, is around since Jaime's famous 75%, which makes people to absolutely disregard everything else, which is very absurd.

 

[Orm]

18 minutes ago, frenin said:

Seriously, this comes from a Bobby's stan, it makes you no good, trying to argue things¡s as blatant as this.

Funny how the definition you listed, in 1, 6 and 7 , Defines what I said....

He didn't give a shit..

How does stating the obvious make me a Bobby stan? (Admittedly, I do like the character)

24 minutes ago, frenin said:

You tell me the correlation between jousting and fighting in a melee combat in the middle of the battlefield. I can't really found one.

I thought the correlation would be athletism and ability.... I told you I am not versed in the topic.... That's why I took your word for it. And I am still taking it now...

 

35 minutes ago, frenin said:

Rhaegar wasn't a fraud

He was copper(Shiny to look at, but nothing really useful) with an obsession. Quite like Renly, really....

But then again Renly has the excuse of being dealt with underhandedly ( I will admit it even as a Stannis Stan)....

 

28 minutes ago, frenin said:

Hmm yes, because by the time Rhaegar entered the tilts, he already had a brother.

I disagree... A single brother along a series of miscarriages, still births and no other relatives with the same name isn't good enough... That along with a crazy king who gets a turn on by burning people.

[R2D]

3 minutes ago, Orm said:

He was copper(Shiny to look at, but nothing really useful) with an obsession. Quite like Renly, really....

But then again Renly has the excuse of being dealt with underhandedly ( I will admit it even as a Stannis Stan)....

Nah Renly was smart, he knew the Lannisters were trouble, he knew to strike before Cersei seized power, he understood that he had to gain the alliance of one of the most powerful houses and he did this by making Marg queen.

He had a good strategy for the war, march slowly so the Lannisters and Starks tear each other apart, when he arrives at King's Landing he'll be seen as a hero and loved for bringing food, like the Tyrells were.

Copper is one of the most valuable metals so frankly Donal Noye doesn't know wtf he's talking about.

[frenin]

Just now, Orm said:

Funny how the definition you listed, in 1, 6 and 7 , Defines what I said....

He didn't give a shit..

How does stating the obvious make me a Bobby stan? (Admittedly, I do like the character)

What obvious?? Indifferent here is being used as a synonym of mediocre, we have never heard about Robert perfoming half good in a tourney.

If Robert didn't give a shiy, he would not enter in the tilts.

 

 

3 minutes ago, Orm said:

I thought the correlation would be athletism and ability.... I told you I am not versed in the topic.... That's why I took your word for it. And I am still taking it now...

Then why you keep going on and on about horned gods??

 

 

6 minutes ago, Orm said:

He was copper(Shiny to look at, but nothing really useful) with an obsession. Quite like Renly, really....

But then again Renly has the excuse of being dealt with underhandedly ( I will admit it even as a Stannis Stan)....

... If you say so, you will find more than one people that are more than ready to give Robert that title, careful there...

 

 

7 minutes ago, Orm said:

I disagree... A single brother along a series of miscarriages, still births and no other relatives with the same name isn't good enough... That along with a crazy king who gets a turn on by burning people.

It's not good enough for whom?? The latter happened later

[Orm]

19 minutes ago, R2D said:

Copper is one of the most valuable metals so frankly Donal Noye doesn't know wtf he's talking about.

Yup, Copper is pretty useful in our world and era.... But not in a midieval setting.

Noye gets a pass....

20 minutes ago, frenin said:

If Robert didn't give a shiy, he would not enter in the tilts.

??

Spoiler

flush crept up Cersei's neck. The girl had caught her out. Robert Baratheon had been an indifferent jouster, in truth. During tourneys he had much preferred the mêlée, where he could beat men bloody with blunted axe or hammer. 

According to Cersei, Bobby B didn't give a shit about Jousting and participated in the melees....

Notice how Cersei the Narcissist, doesn't mean it in a demeaning way? Given how she tries demean him at everything else. Should convey something to us, no?

28 minutes ago, frenin said:

Then why you keep going on and on about horned gods??

Cause, Ned Stark?....

Quote

He found himself thinking of Robert more and more. He saw the king as he had been in the flower of his youth, tall and handsome, his great antlered helm on his head, his warhammer in hand, sitting his horse like a horned god. He heard his laughter in the dark, saw his eyes, blue and clear as mountain lakes.

 

32 minutes ago, frenin said:

. If you say so, you will find more than one people that are more than ready to give Robert that title, careful there...

The results of Robert's Rebellion discredits thier fanfics....

 

33 minutes ago, frenin said:

It's not good enough for whom??

For me, to convince me otherwise without a doubt....

 

34 minutes ago, frenin said:

The latter happened later

Was bound to happen someday.... And I am sure he experimented on people before the Starks....

[frenin]

2 hours ago, Orm said:

According to Cersei, Bobby B didn't give a shit about Jousting and participated in the melees....

Notice how Cersei the Narcissist, doesn't mean it in a demeaning way? Given how she tries demean him at everything else. Should convey something to us, no?

Indifferent is demeaning, it stands for mediocre in this context. And we know that Robert used to enter the tilts.

 

2 hours ago, Orm said:

The results of Robert's Rebellion discredits thier fanfics....

Robert's behaviour post war gives it flames.

 

2 hours ago, Orm said:

For me, to convince me otherwise without a doubt

Ah ok, to each... It was enough tho. And nothing we know tells that people let him win. Otherwise he wouldn't have been defeated. By Barristan or Dayne.

 

 

2 hours ago, Orm said:

Was bound to happen someday.... And I am sure he experimented on people before the Starks....

Still happened later, after Duskendale.

[Orm]

47 minutes ago, frenin said:

Indifferent is demeaning, it stands for mediocre in this context. And we know that Robert used to enter the tilts.

To each....

 

47 minutes ago, frenin said:

Robert's behaviour post war gives it flames.

You mean after he got strong armed into marrying Cersei Lannister of all people? If anything it gets me feeling for the guy....

I don't know, man..... When the author vouches for his own fiction that Bobby B had always been a solid good dude with some issues, I don't think there is room for much debate on the matter....

Especially, in case of Stannis the Mannis....

And I would also somewhat say the same for Jaime, aswell....

Getting a shit deal at life isn't a fault of your own....

47 minutes ago, frenin said:

Still happened later, after Duskendale

 Happened, none the less....