Sansa's concepts on Sisters: Margaery vs. Arya

[Angel Eyes]

So this grew out of one of my posts on the Mirrors and Foils thread, but it's interesting to note. Sansa wishes that she had Margaery for a sister instead of Arya, but a lot of things that she didn't like about Arya she liked about Margaery:

• They like to ride horses;
• Befriend smallfolk (if a bit superficially on Margaery's part);
• Don't care much about getting dirty;
• Collects things she found in nature
• Relatively good judges of character; Arya spots how rotten Joffrey and Cersei are well before Ned and Sansa do while Margaery showed she was well aware of what Cersei was like

On other notes, Margaery and Arya are girls whose looks are compared to Lyanna Stark and incur Cersei Lannister's dislike for the bulleted traits. So what does that tell us about Sansa, that the things that she likes about Margaery are the things she dislikes about Arya?

[Curled Finger]

As a little girl, Sansa appreciates form over substance.  Marg is older which is a common thing for a young girl to desire the attention from where Arya is younger and therefore not on equal ground--all that worldly experience Sansa wants to have.   While your breakdown is pretty interesting I think the matter of the whole Tyrell  "romancing" of Sansa to gain intel on Joffrey is also an important factor here.   And Sansa is very relieved to not have to marry Joffrey.   It's interesting that Sansa doesn't reflect on Arya being spot on in her assessment of Joff & Cersei.  Sounds to me like Arya did her job as a pesky and bothersome (and embarrassing) younger sister well.   

[zandru]

22 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

As a little girl, Sansa appreciates form over substance.  Marg is older which is a common thing for a young girl to desire the attention from where Arya is younger and therefore not on equal ground--all that worldly experience Sansa wants to have.   While your breakdown is pretty interesting I think the matter of the whole Tyrell  "romancing" of Sansa to gain intel on Joffrey is also an important factor here.   And Sansa is very relieved to not have to marry Joffrey.   It's interesting that Sansa doesn't reflect on Arya being spot on in her assessment of Joff & Cersei.  Sounds to me like Arya did her job as a pesky and bothersome (and embarrassing) younger sister well.   

Good points. Also, Sansa has a, shall we say, well bred tendency to kiss up and kick down? Throughout her chapters, she rarely gives her servants names; they're just described by their functions on her behalf. Yet she knows all about and all the latest gossip for the nobility and the court.

Sansa isn't actually very self-aware (in my opinion, which goes without saying!). She seems to see herself through the eyes of others and accept their judgments of her without question. When Joffrey turns on her and calls her stupid, well, then Sansa agonizes over how stupid she is. Ditto for Cersei. Later, when Littlefinger, clearly buttering her up so as to manipulate her, calls her shrewd and smart, then suddenly she thinks she's smart!

It's interesting how little Sansa thinks of Arya, given how much time Sansa has on her hands, and how she's free of responsibilities to work, to provide food for herself, for clothing, shelter, and figuring out where to go next. We (some of us, at least) can forgive Arya for not thinking often of Sansa, since she's been struggling just to survive and help her pack to do so; also, Arya may assume that if Sansa is still in King's Landing, she's being taken care of.

I'm thinking that neither of these Sansa characteristics: snobbishness, and letting her identy be how others perceive her, are anything Marguery has. Had Sansa been under the Tyrell wing longer, she could have learned The Art of Courtly Politics from a much better source than sour and vengeful Petyr Baelish.

[Curled Finger]

5 minutes ago, zandru said:

Good points. Also, Sansa has a, shall we say, well bred tendency to kiss up and kick down? Throughout her chapters, she rarely gives her servants names; they're just described by their functions on her behalf. Yet she knows all about and all the latest gossip for the nobility and the court.

Sansa isn't actually very self-aware (in my opinion, which goes without saying!). She seems to see herself through the eyes of others and accept their judgments of her without question. When Joffrey turns on her and calls her stupid, well, then Sansa agonizes over how stupid she is. Ditto for Cersei. Later, when Littlefinger, clearly buttering her up so as to manipulate her, calls her shrewd and smart, then suddenly she thinks she's smart!

It's interesting how little Sansa thinks of Arya, given how much time Sansa has on her hands, and how she's free of responsibilities to work, to provide food for herself, for clothing, shelter, and figuring out where to go next. We (some of us, at least) can forgive Arya for not thinking often of Sansa, since she's been struggling just to survive and help her pack to do so; also, Arya may assume that if Sansa is still in King's Landing, she's being taken care of.

I'm thinking that neither of these Sansa characteristics: snobbishness, and letting her identy be how others perceive her, are anything Marguery has. Had Sansa been under the Tyrell wing longer, she could have learned The Art of Courtly Politics from a much better source than sour and vengeful Petyr Baelish.

I can't disagree with your assessment of Sansa as very shallow in at least AGOT.   However, the little princess does snap out of that thinking and even befriends a servant (Mya) in her later incarnations...as a bastard child of gasp--new nobility.   We could argue Sansa versus Arya's risks and dangers, but the truth is Sansa is up against plenty.   I am reminded of the slow grooming and molestation on top of beatings on top of scandal on top of loss of power and humiliation that Sansa has stayed in Westeros to endure.   This doesn't make her better than Arya.   It is a different and no less perilous path.  Marg is queen and still ends up in custody of lunatic fanatics despite her well honed courtly intrigues.  Westeros pretty much hates its females, but all 3 of these little girls to young women are still making their way on very diverse paths.  In broad strokes we could include Dany in this conversation.   She's another good illustration of a naive child becoming a woman in her own power.   Dragons be damned.   

My point was only that Sansa is still very young and learning.  (As are Dany, Marg and even Arya).  More specific to Sansa and Arya, neither seems to consider her lost sister much.   In considering this I thought perhaps for Sansa it is too painful to really consider Arya.   There is no doubt loss and grief in this reflection.   

[zandru]

52 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

My point was only that Sansa is still very young and learning.  (As are Dany, Marg and even Arya).  More specific to Sansa and Arya, neither seems to consider her lost sister much.   In considering this I thought perhaps for Sansa it is too painful to really consider Arya.   There is no doubt loss and grief in this reflection. 

All good points. I'd add possible guilt. In the earlier pages, we often see Sansa thinking snarky remarks about her "most unsatisfactory" younger sister. Finally, when she's in the Eyrie and unconsciously reconstructing Winterfell, a memory of playing in the snow with Arya - and enjoying it - comes to her. I credit the snow with triggering the memory, and the fact that Sansa has come down several pegs from back when she was a nascent Queen of the 7 Kingdoms, to a mere bastard by-blow of a lord so minor, he's basically a commoner. (Nobody takes that "Lord of Harrenhal" or "Protector of the Vale" stuff seriously; this is Littlefinger.)

Sansa hasn't really experienced the smallfolk lifestyle yet, and likely never will. But she's definitely not the Belle of the Ball anymore, and this could help her development into a more empathetic person. Which would be helpful in the role she's being trained for, scheming manipulator - and one hopes, higher aspirations as well.

[Curled Finger]

7 minutes ago, zandru said:

All good points. I'd add possible guilt. In the earlier pages, we often see Sansa thinking snarky remarks about her "most unsatisfactory" younger sister. Finally, when she's in the Eyrie and unconsciously reconstructing Winterfell, a memory of playing in the snow with Arya - and enjoying it - comes to her. I credit the snow with triggering the memory, and the fact that Sansa has come down several pegs from back when she was a nascent Queen of the 7 Kingdoms, to a mere bastard by-blow of a lord so minor, he's basically a commoner. (Nobody takes that "Lord of Harrenhal" or "Protector of the Vale" stuff seriously; this is Littlefinger.)

Sansa hasn't really experienced the smallfolk lifestyle yet, and likely never will. But she's definitely not the Belle of the Ball anymore, and this could help her development into a more empathetic person. Which would be helpful in the role she's being trained for, scheming manipulator - and one hopes, higher aspirations as well.

You could be right about the guilt.   I love that bit about Arya being most unsatisfactory.   Only a lady would come up with that.   

[Lady Dacey]

I don't see many similarities between Arya and Maergery, really. The fact that they share some meager traits... I don't know, doesn't feel very meaninful. That said, I find the Sansa & Arya dynamics and relationship very beliaveble and relatable. It's well done, and I don't read into it that they hate each other or are true antagonists in any way. Sansa's dissatisfaction are quite reasonable, even if they make her somewhat unlikeble to the eye of a modern reader. 

[zandru]

3 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

The fact that they share some meager traits... I don't know, doesn't feel very meaninful.

Yes, I think the apparent similarities are actually reversed by the age difference. Marguery is a few years older than Sansa, sophisticated, well dressed, well trained, from a significant House. Arya is just her little kid sister. Remember how "flexible" Sansa is. On the trek from Winterfell to King's Landing, when Arya asked Sansa if she'd like to go for a ride, it was NO! I hate riding and those smelly horses! A few minutes later, when Joffrey proposed a horseback ride, O! I'd love to! I LOVE riding!  (Quotes are very approximate and from memory.)

3 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

I find the Sansa & Arya dynamics and relationship very beliaveble and relatable.

Me, too. I'm sure there are sisters who  dearly and overtly love and support one another. But the "mean girl" older sister is also a thing. Thanks to the author's point of view perspectives, we get to see both sides. Also, Ned's point of view, where he doesn't understand it at all.

[Lady Dacey]

On 8/28/2020 at 8:20 PM, zandru said:

But the "mean girl" older sister is also a thing.

Well in my experiencd the "mean girl" younger sister is also totally a thing. Me and mine own, we're friends now that we're both adults, and through the really rough stuff we were always there for each other... she even used to come to my bed in the middle of the night when she had nightmares, but by the light of day we were the exact picture of Arya and Sansa, except age reversed, since I'm older by three years (though if she were here she'd point out it's actually just two years and eight months). When we were kids I was reckless, untidy, angry and sharp-tongued, and couldn't do my hair or match a blouse to a skirt if my life depended on it (I tried, I did try sometimes) and she was the picture-perfect polite little lady, friendly and smart, and woke up ealier than strictly necessary to straigthen her hair before we had to go to school. Still I was the one that always made us late to class, poor her. With the benefit of hindsight, I can understand how frustrating it must've been on her side, really. I totally get Sansa, she does love Arya, but the little sister is such a huge nuisance it's hard to like her. 

[Angel Eyes]

16 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

I don't see many similarities between Arya and Maergery, really. The fact that they share some meager traits... I don't know, doesn't feel very meaninful. That said, I find the Sansa & Arya dynamics and relationship very beliaveble and relatable. It's well done, and I don't read into it that they hate each other or are true antagonists in any way. Sansa's dissatisfaction are quite reasonable, even if they make her somewhat unlikeble to the eye of a modern reader. 

Well, the meager traits are common in both, but the difference lies in how Sansa perceives them; what she doesn’t like about Arya was present in Margaery, but she did not see that.

[Lady Dacey]

3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well, the meager traits are common in both, but the difference lies in how Sansa perceives them; what she doesn’t like about Arya was present in Margaery, but she did not see that.

That is the heart of what I disagree with. While the parallels you bring up seem accurate, they do not represent either what Sansa doesn't like about Arya or what she likes about Margaery. We never see her saying how Margaery is awesome because she rides so well or because she is well liked by the commons. Sansa admires Margaery's courtly manners, her politeness, her singing and playing, the ladies she has to attend her. Margaery is beautiful and charming, and that she rides and hawks is just a detail. Sansa never dislikes Arya because she is "beloved by the commons" but because she befriends them. Arya is not one to be wearing a beautiful silk and samite dress and then not really care when she gets a little mud on the hem, she wears riding leathers and roughspun breeches for days in a row. Arya is very uncourtly and dowright embarrasing for Sansa, when Margaery is none of those things. 

[Colonel Green]

On 8/28/2020 at 2:06 PM, Angel Eyes said:

So this grew out of one of my posts on the Mirrors and Foils thread, but it's interesting to note. Sansa wishes that she had Margaery for a sister instead of Arya, but a lot of things that she didn't like about Arya she liked about Margaery:

• They like to ride horses;
• Befriend smallfolk (if a bit superficially on Margaery's part);
• Don't care much about getting dirty;
• Collects things she found in nature
• Relatively good judges of character; Arya spots how rotten Joffrey and Cersei are well before Ned and Sansa do while Margaery showed she was well aware of what Cersei was like

Sansa doesn't like Margaery because she likes to ride horses.  She likes her because she's the ideal of a courtly lady, which Arya definitely is not, and they engage in various traditional ladylike activities (things Sansa specifically states she always dreamed of doing with a sister but which Arya wasn't any good at or had no interest in).  And, of course, she comes along at a point where Sansa desperately needs a friend.

On 8/28/2020 at 3:04 PM, zandru said:

Sansa isn't actually very self-aware (in my opinion, which goes without saying!). She seems to see herself through the eyes of others and accept their judgments of her without question. When Joffrey turns on her and calls her stupid, well, then Sansa agonizes over how stupid she is. Ditto for Cersei. Later, when Littlefinger, clearly buttering her up so as to manipulate her, calls her shrewd and smart, then suddenly she thinks she's smart!

While Sansa is certainly influenced (as everybody is) by what other people say to her, I don't think any of those instances is her just accepting other people's judgements without question.  Sansa's belief that she is stupid is directly linked to that she once trusted Cersei and Joffrey and they both completely betrayed all the faith she put in them, shattering her whole worldview.  That they're calling her stupid on top of that certainly doesn't help, but I wouldn't say it's the source of her lack of self-esteem.  Likewise, through AFFC we see her given various tasks to perform and largely succeeding at them.

Quote

It's interesting how little Sansa thinks of Arya, given how much time Sansa has on her hands, and how she's free of responsibilities to work, to provide food for herself, for clothing, shelter, and figuring out where to go next.

Sansa specifically states in ACOK Sansa II that she tries not to think about her friends and family because it's too painful to do so.

[The Lord of the Crossing]

On 8/28/2020 at 1:06 PM, Angel Eyes said:

So this grew out of one of my posts on the Mirrors and Foils thread, but it's interesting to note. Sansa wishes that she had Margaery for a sister instead of Arya, but a lot of things that she didn't like about Arya she liked about Margaery:

• They like to ride horses;
• Befriend smallfolk (if a bit superficially on Margaery's part);
• Don't care much about getting dirty;
• Collects things she found in nature
• Relatively good judges of character; Arya spots how rotten Joffrey and Cersei are well before Ned and Sansa do while Margaery showed she was well aware of what Cersei was like

On other notes, Margaery and Arya are girls whose looks are compared to Lyanna Stark and incur Cersei Lannister's dislike for the bulleted traits. So what does that tell us about Sansa, that the things that she likes about Margaery are the things she dislikes about Arya?

Sansa is shallow and superficial.  There's not much of a character in there.  She is a very selfish person is all.  I don't think she will survive during the long winter. 

[Seams]

I think Sansa's attitudes toward Margaery and Arya are part of a green / brown fertility symbolism that is starting to come together for me. I better update the A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms Reread thread, because The Sworn Sword novella helps to make the symbolism clearer.

We all know that House Tyrell is strongly associated with green - their sigil is a gold rose on a green background. The Reach is famous as a place where fruit and crops are grown. Most importantly, Highgarden was associated with the fecund legendary figure Garth Greenhands and with the Gardner kings. So Margaery is a green figure.

I suspect that Arya is a brown figure. Her face is often dirty and she is often shown trudging through a tunnel or falling into a hole. When she is hiding in Flea Bottom, she captures and kills a pigeon with the intention of selling or trading it for a bowl of brown, the mysterious stew that is the local dish for small folk in that part of town.

If I'm interpreting GRRM's symbols correctly, brown and green have to work together to allow life to occur: plants need dirt and dirt is made out of fallen leaves or other organic matter that falls to the ground. In ASOIAF, few people recognize or respect brown - they don't acknowledge that dirt is necessary and equally important for life. Everyone is focused on the beauty of green but they don't acknowledge that green can't exist without brown. (Exception in the making: Tyrion values Bronn, who is a brown character. House Stokeworth is the bread basket that provides the food supply for King's Landing. Bronn has just taken control of House Stokeworth. From a symbolism perspective, I suspect that the food supply and fertility are back on track with Bronn in charge.)

But there is a third element that unites the brown and green: water, represented by blue. (You can see why The Sworn Sword finally helped me to sort out these symbols.)

Does that mean that Sansa represents water? Will she somehow unite Margaery and Arya and the three of them will allow spring and summer to occur?

I don't think that is Sansa's role. I associate her with the Winterfell glass house, the greenhouse where fruit trees are able to live in spite of the climate. When Theon wistfully remembers his days as Ned Stark's ward, he compares the Stark daughters (particularly Sansa) to low-hanging fruit. Arya throws a blood orange at Sansa and Ser Dontos "dubs" her (or maybe defeats her in symbolic combat) with a morning star made out of a ripe melon. Sansa may represent the seed. The seed is strong? She needs both green and brown in order to take root, but she doesn't know it.

The third sister, I believe, is Brienne. She tells everyone that she is seeking her sister, a highborn maid of three and ten. In ASOIAF, if someone says something three times, the phrase takes on a kind of prophetic or magical quality. Brienne may repeat the sister phrase more than three times.

Brienne is associated with blue (her color before she joins Renly's Rainbow Guard but confirmed when he gives her the cloak associated with blue). Tarth is known as the Sapphire Isle, taking its name from the blue water that surrounds the island.

Brienne thinks she seeks Sansa as she makes her way to Crackclaw Point. Instead, she finds characters emerging from a tree (Shagwell), a well (Timeon) and "sprouted from the earth" (Pyg): here again is the green flora (except it's a weirwood tree - gotta figure out the specific symbol there), blue water and brown earth.

Brienne and Pod kill them all (with no help from Hyle Hunt, a brown character who replaces the brown character Dick Crabb). The name Pod is a seed name. Before he dies, Shagwell is forced to bury Nimble Dick - a planting ritual. I suspect the overall symbolism of Brienne's quest is that an old fertility regime is being ended and buried; a new one is being born. (Erosion is also part of the symbolism - you can't get rid of dirt by burying it, but erosion can destroy land.) Shagwell, Timeon and Pyg die - along with Nimble Dick - but Pod, Brienne and Ser Hyle Hunt emerge from the underworld and return to the mainstream world.

The Sansa / Margaery / Arya / Brienne symbolism may also be clarified by examining Sister Stew, the crab stew that is served in the islands known as the Three Sisters. House Stark and House Arryn fought for control of the Three Sisters for a thousand years. (House Arryn won.) When Ned needed to leave the Vale and get back to the North, he was able to make his secret and dangerous journey by going through the Three Sisters. Ser Davos Seaworth is the only other character we know of who travels through the Three Sisters. On his journey, there is a memorable scene where he eats an apple and gives the seeds back to the apple seller who says that the seeds are valuable. I think he is also helping to restore or begin anew uniting the fertility elements necessary for new life.

Anyway.

With regard to this thread, I think we have to expand beyond Margaery and Arya to understand the importance of Sansa's relationship with her "sisters." Brienne has to be in the mix as well.

Note: It is interesting, though, that Brienne hates roses ( = Tyrells). She may not be happy about "being the element" that unites dirt with seeds to allow roses to grow.

 

[Sigella]

5 hours ago, Seams said:

I think Sansa's attitudes toward Margaery and Arya are part of a green / brown fertility symbolism that is starting to come together for me. I better update the A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms Reread thread, because The Sworn Sword novella helps to make the symbolism clearer.

We all know that House Tyrell is strongly associated with green - their sigil is a gold rose on a green background. The Reach is famous as a place where fruit and crops are grown. Most importantly, Highgarden was associated with the fecund legendary figure Garth Greenhands and with the Gardner kings. So Margaery is a green figure.

I suspect that Arya is a brown figure. Her face is often dirty and she is often shown trudging through a tunnel or falling into a hole. When she is hiding in Flea Bottom, she captures and kills a pigeon with the intention of selling or trading it for a bowl of brown, the mysterious stew that is the local dish for small folk in that part of town.

If I'm interpreting GRRM's symbols correctly, brown and green have to work together to allow life to occur: plants need dirt and dirt is made out of fallen leaves or other organic matter that falls to the ground. In ASOIAF, few people recognize or respect brown - they don't acknowledge that dirt is necessary and equally important for life. Everyone is focused on the beauty of green but they don't acknowledge that green can't exist without brown. (Exception in the making: Tyrion values Bronn, who is a brown character. House Stokeworth is the bread basket that provides the food supply for King's Landing. Bronn has just taken control of House Stokeworth. From a symbolism perspective, I suspect that the food supply and fertility are back on track with Bronn in charge.)

But there is a third element that unites the brown and green: water, represented by blue. (You can see why The Sworn Sword finally helped me to sort out these symbols.)

Does that mean that Sansa represents water? Will she somehow unite Margaery and Arya and the three of them will allow spring and summer to occur?

I don't think that is Sansa's role. I associate her with the Winterfell glass house, the greenhouse where fruit trees are able to live in spite of the climate. When Theon wistfully remembers his days as Ned Stark's ward, he compares the Stark daughters (particularly Sansa) to low-hanging fruit. Arya throws a blood orange at Sansa and Ser Dontos "dubs" her (or maybe defeats her in symbolic combat) with a morning star made out of a ripe melon. Sansa may represent the seed. The seed is strong? She needs both green and brown in order to take root, but she doesn't know it.

The third sister, I believe, is Brienne. She tells everyone that she is seeking her sister, a highborn maid of three and ten. In ASOIAF, if someone says something three times, the phrase takes on a kind of prophetic or magical quality. Brienne may repeat the sister phrase more than three times.

Brienne is associated with blue (her color before she joins Renly's Rainbow Guard but confirmed when he gives her the cloak associated with blue). Tarth is known as the Sapphire Isle, taking its name from the blue water that surrounds the island.

Brienne thinks she seeks Sansa as she makes her way to Crackclaw Point. Instead, she finds characters emerging from a tree (Shagwell), a well (Timeon) and "sprouted from the earth" (Pyg): here again is the green flora (except it's a weirwood tree - gotta figure out the specific symbol there), blue water and brown earth.

Brienne and Pod kill them all (with no help from Hyle Hunt, a brown character who replaces the brown character Dick Crabb). The name Pod is a seed name. Before he dies, Shagwell is forced to bury Nimble Dick - a planting ritual. I suspect the overall symbolism of Brienne's quest is that an old fertility regime is being ended and buried; a new one is being born. (Erosion is also part of the symbolism - you can't get rid of dirt by burying it, but erosion can destroy land.) Shagwell, Timeon and Pyg die - along with Nimble Dick - but Pod, Brienne and Ser Hyle Hunt emerge from the underworld and return to the mainstream world.

The Sansa / Margaery / Arya / Brienne symbolism may also be clarified by examining Sister Stew, the crab stew that is served in the islands known as the Three Sisters. House Stark and House Arryn fought for control of the Three Sisters for a thousand years. (House Arryn won.) When Ned needed to leave the Vale and get back to the North, he was able to make his secret and dangerous journey by going through the Three Sisters. Ser Davos Seaworth is the only other character we know of who travels through the Three Sisters. On his journey, there is a memorable scene where he eats an apple and gives the seeds back to the apple seller who says that the seeds are valuable. I think he is also helping to restore or begin anew uniting the fertility elements necessary for new life.

Anyway.

With regard to this thread, I think we have to expand beyond Margaery and Arya to understand the importance of Sansa's relationship with her "sisters." Brienne has to be in the mix as well.

Note: It is interesting, though, that Brienne hates roses ( = Tyrells). She may not be happy about "being the element" that unites dirt with seeds to allow roses to grow.

 

I'd argue you're not looking at a trinity but the good old 4 elements, in any case your missed the fire. In TSS its not the blue that saves the day but the wee little Egg and his boot.

Your trinity doesn't work without fire; green, brown and blue all turn to ice without the sun.

[Seams]

14 minutes ago, Sigella said:

I'd argue you're not looking at a trinity but the good old 4 elements, in any case your missed the fire. In TSS its not the blue that saves the day but the wee little Egg and his boot.

Your trinity doesn't work without fire; green, brown and blue all turn to ice without the sun.

I was thinking about that after I posted this - I suspect that Ser Loras is wordplay on "solar," and he brings the sun to the relationship. So maybe three sisters and a brother?

[Sigella]

9 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Sansa is shallow and superficial.  There's not much of a character in there.  She is a very selfish person is all.  I don't think she will survive during the long winter. 

She was all those things you say. But like @Curled Finger and others have said Sansa's status is still in free fall (and although I'd argue she is still snobby-acting and certainly no friend of Mya Stone) she has to learn something about other peoples stations in life just from being forced downstairs for a bit. One major change though, is when she chooses to trust ser Dontos - even as she is despairing that he isn't someone better.  

[Sigella]

4 minutes ago, Seams said:

I was thinking about that after I posted this - I suspect that Ser Loras is wordplay on "solar," and he brings the sun to the relationship. So maybe three sisters and a brother?

Or your could make it easy and propose Dany or Mel for fire. Or maybe Sansa's auburn hair at a stretch?

 

edit: or Cersei with her wildfire thing  

[Seams]

18 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Or your could make it easy and propose Dany or Mel for fire. Or maybe Sansa's auburn hair at a stretch?

edit: or Cersei with her wildfire thing  

I don't want to derail the sister discussion. I'll have to finish my thoughts about The Sworn Sword and work them out in writing. Maybe that will help to determine whether fire or anything else is a fourth element. Egg's ring is an important symbol, but I don't know that it's part of the fertility cluster that I'm seeing with Ser Bennis of the Brown Shield, the Chequy Water, the dry fields and Wat's Wood, along with the small folk named after beans, melon and barleycorn and the boys in the berry patch.

The sigil ring in the boot may provide some kind of magic that brings the fertility elements together - rings are part of a major motif about the cyclical nature of time and events. Or it may be among symbols such as wine, webs, shields, baths, cellars, towers and the paying of a blood price, all of which are important elements in the story but not necessarily directly related to the seed / earth / water fertility motif.

[Lord Lannister]

I think the answer is two fold.

Margaery looks good doing those things while Arya does not.

Sansa has a tendency to ingratiate herself to her social superiors while ignoring or belittling those beneath her.