Heresy 232 Lady Dyanna's Rainbow

[Lady Dyanna]

13 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I'd certainly go with that and indeed still cleave to the suspicion that HR may have been a dirty rotten coward who shot poor Jesse  Arthur in the back .

Which is rather to get away from the point. The sword Ice is a bit of a red herring in that the one split by Tobho Mott was a spell-forged Valyrian blade - NOT the original and if there's any significance attaching, it attaches to the original and there we come back to ice and its ability to reflect the full colour spectrum of the rainbow.

I agree that we get tricked as the current “Ice” is a replacement blade. We can’t count on the characteristics of the old blade in any way matching those of the new. As a matter of fact, I suspect it might have displayed the exact opposite characteristics. In both Dawn and ice you see two diametrically opposed swords. Seems there should be some significance in that idea. Especially when the current sword in the North is one that is known to embody the characteristics of fire magic when the one in the south comes closer to that of ice. 

[Lady Dyanna]

11 hours ago, LynnS said:

Or the sword had a taste of Ned's blood and became alive with light.

I think that you are onto something when you say this. If only because twice in the early chapters of GoT (And again with Jorah outside of Danny’s tent) we see examples of this occurring. The kill doesn’t occur until after the victor draws blood. This is most evident in the battle we see in the prologue between Waymar Royce and the white walker. 

[Melifeather]

27 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

I sometimes wonder if we aren’t too quick in assigning symbolic and celestial meaning to the  in world mythologies and getting it backwards. Throughout time people have sought to explain the unexplainable through looking at the stars. But just because the framework for the explanation is as a celestial event it doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s describing a celestial event. It seems more likely that the heavens are actually used purely as symbolic descriptions of human centric events. It’s the PEOPLE that are being represented by the tales of celestial events as compared with the tales being about anthropomorphised heavenly bodies. 

Melisandre thinks Azor Ahai is a savior that will battle the Great Other and bring about everlasting summer. A battle of light versus dark, the two sides being forces of nature. A second long night is coming and with it a generation of dark winter cold. Azor Ahai is the champion of the Lord of Light. What he’s expected to do is defeat winter, not to kill a human enemy.

[Lady Dyanna]

8 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Traditionally swords are named for what they do and not necessarily for who the wielder is. For instance Joffrey named his sword Widow's Wail. Apparently he hopes his sword makes lots of widows. Jaime named the sword (half of Ice) that he gave Brienne Oathkeeper. What I'm getting at is Ice wasn't named "Ice", because it had ice properties or that the original was made of ice, but rather for what it can kill. If ice and rainbows are symbolic of magic then the sword Ice can kill magic.

True... at times. But I’m not sure that we can consistently say this. Otherwise I’m not sure what exactly to make of “Lion’s Tooth”. Seems to me that’s more of a description of what the sword is actually supposed to BE. Joffrey wants it to work just like a lions teeth might. 

8 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Personally, I think Howland got into Arthur's head like Bran into Hodor and caused momentary confusion. Hodor was very scared every time Bran did it. Can you imagine what something like that would do to Arthur? And if Ned was able to kill Arthur while Howland was skinchanging him, then Howland would have felt the killing blow.

Definitely possible, but still reserving judgement. It would certainly be effective. But it would definitely require that Howland be a skin changer. We know he has a close connection to the old gods, but is there actually any hard or even circumstantial/implied evidence to support that notion? I’m not saying it might not be there. But I don’t think I have ever seen it. 

8 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Well I guess this speaks to the topic at hand. What is the rainbow symbolism in the story? It's easy to dismiss Renly's rainbow guard as a symbol of gay pride, but perhaps that's not how Renly actually saw it? They could have been his idea of a recreation of Dawn, as if he was trying to conjure a magical protection some how. Dawn is a magical sword. It's supposed to render the Sword of the Morning undefeatable. The Wall is supposed to prevent magical beings from crossing and its said it defends itself, so it seems to me that rainbows are intended to symbolize magic. But I feel like along with that are lightning bolts. Lighting bolts are flashes of brilliant blazing light and come in every color of the rainbow. 

I’m not so sure the rationale behind Renly’s choice of having a rainbow guard means anything, but rather the fact that it IS the Rainbow guard that is significant. Interesting to note is that I’m fairly certain that the only two remaining survivors of the guard are Loras and Brienne. Loras is currently burnt half to ashes and on deaths doorstep. And last seen Brienne wasn’t fairing so well either after traveling the Riverland's underworld and fighting ghosts and fire wights like Lady Stoneheart. Another thought that strikes me is that both are currently bound by oaths. Brienne to Catelyn and Loras to Renley. Is that why they’re still alive?

Focusing more on Renley himself. Renley is a symbolic representation of a Summer King. Just the same as Robert. (Stannis is winter to Renley’s Summer.) The summer king has was executed to make room for the king of winter. But, summer kings have a tendency to return to life in come spring. Lo and behold, Renley is symbolically revived by Garlan Tyrell to defeat the winter king in the next battle.

I’m also intrigued by all of the imagery present in early morning leading up to Renley’s death  The mists and wraith army as described by Catelyn and the odd green cast of the Renley’s tent that morning which is noted to have had a near sickening effect on other colors  There’s something unnatural to it. Just as there is something unnatural about the way Renley is killed. Just as there is an unnatural green glow to wildfire. I think there might be significant clues in those passages.

I agree that there is a significance to the lightning  I’m having trouble wrapping my mind around that one quite yet though.

[Lady Dyanna]

6 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Agreed--though I do think there's a whoppingly good chance that when it came to it, after whatever Howland did, it was Ned that delivered the final blow. And that he did it with Dawn.

Especially after the fact that Ned, too, is killed with his own sword--really feels like a narrative marker, prepping the reader for info.

Agreed--though I'd go further and say that I agree with others before me that Ice is the "stand-in" for Dawn.

Dawn, like the Wall, like milkglass reflects and glows with light. Valyrian steel drinks light it. The opposite of "rainbowing" with light (yes, I'm pretending that's a word.)

6 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Martin clearly uses the Seven's crystal to show this.

But also the Wall and Dawn--the Wall can act like a Septon's crystal (according to Jon) in how it refracts light.

So, to @Lady Dyanna's point (hey, old friend!)--yes, the rainbows seem focused on the crystal in the novels--but they also get tied to the Wall by Jon--makes me think  the Faith is drawing on old truths in nature/magic. Whereas the Wall is just . . . engaging in nature like a natural/supernatural force.

Yes--and it's the exact same description given to the sword so the Others in the the Game Prologue.

So, whatever crystal/ substance the Others' swords are made from, likely Dawn is, too.

That said, the other milkglass, glowing with light thingy we have in the novels? The Black Gate--so, my money for the swords is some kind of transformed weirwood--though many have posited that before me.

It may even be tied to why is refracts light--the swords (and Gate) are sill living things, like weirwood (and the Gate).

Maybe--though the Others' swords in the Game prologue are alive with light before they start stabbing anyone.

And Ned says Dawn's alive with light right after Arthur draws Dawn--before the fight.

Wonderful to see you back.  I’ve missed our crazy dissections of text. And apparently we seem to still be close to the same page on all of this, only you explain it all better. 

[Lady Dyanna]

 

 

[Lady Dyanna]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

Melisandre thinks Azor Ahai is a savior that will battle the Great Other and bring about everlasting summer. A battle of light versus dark, the two sides being forces of nature. A second long night is coming and with it a generation of dark winter cold. Azor Ahai is the champion of the Lord of Light. What he’s expected to do is defeat winter, not to kill a human enemy.

True. But the story is actually focusing on the deeds attributed to AA. And AA himself IS a human. 

[Lady Dyanna]

Oh. Just can’t resist throwing this one out there... Jon is another King of Summer and carries quite heavy symbolism for this. Just like his Papa, Bobby B. 
 

ETA: All Hail to @wolfmaid7’s excellent essay on the topic. 

[Melifeather]

23 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

True. But the story is actually focusing on the deeds attributed to AA. And AA himself IS a human. 

Azor Ahai is an in-world mythological hero with no evidence that he was ever a real. Other cultures have an Azor Ahai hero known by other names: Hyrkoon the Hero, Yin Tar, Neferion, and Eldric Shadowchaser. Melisandre links AA to the Prince that was Promised. The ancient tales of Yi Ti make the hero a woman with a monkey's tail.

The forging of the sword, first thirty, then fifty, then one hundred seems to echo other numerical requirements of feats in myths. Many ancient cultures used myths to explain the existence of the world. The deluge rain that covered the earth lasted forty days and forty nights. In Korea there's a story about a bear that became a woman by living in a cave for 100 days, eating only garlic and mugwort. Greek mythological creatures called Hecatoncheires have fifty heads and a hundred hands that hold clouds, storms, and shook seas.

Mythological heroes also have magic swords. AA had the flaming sword Lightbringer, Rhydderch Hale had a flaming sword too called Dyrnwyn. If drawn by a worthy person, the fire would help his cause. If he was found unworthy, the fire would consume him.

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

I think that you are onto something when you say this. If only because twice in the early chapters of GoT (And again with Jorah outside of Danny’s tent) we see examples of this occurring. The kill doesn’t occur unoing back til after the victor draws blood. This is most evident in the battle we see in the prologue between Waymar Royce and the white walker. 

I just find it hard to believe that Ned made it through that fight without a scratch.

Going back to the colors of dawn and dusk; Ned's dream of a blood streaked sky could very well be the colors of dawn on the morning of the fight.  Red sky in the morning, sailor take warning.

I don't actually think the dawn sword (or the Wall) refract light because they are not translucent.  I think they reflect light or shine with light.  The wall takes on the color of the sky, grey, white or blue when it shines with light.  The dawn sword may also reflect the reds of dawn also, making it a red sword alive with light.

Melisander's false sword:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

Stannis Baratheon drew Lightbringer.

The sword glowed red and yellow and orange, alive with light. Jon had seen the show before … but not like this, never before like this. Lightbringer was the sun made steel. When Stannis raised the blade above his head, men had to turn their heads or cover their eyes. Horses shied, and one threw his rider. The blaze in the fire pit seemed to shrink before this storm of light, like a small dog cowering before a larger one. The Wall itself turned red and pink and orange, as waves of color danced across the ice. Is this the power of king's blood?

So I question whether to dawn sword was alive with light in a similar manner.   

[Lady Dyanna]

2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Azor Ahai is an in-world mythological hero with no evidence that he was ever a real. Other cultures have an Azor Ahai hero known by other names: Hyrkoon the Hero, Yin Tar, Neferion, and Eldric Shadowchaser. Melisandre links AA to the Prince that was Promised. The ancient tales of Yi Ti make the hero a woman with a monkey's tail.

And all of these characters are human heroes 

2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

The forging of the sword, first thirty, then fifty, then one hundred seems to echo other numerical requirements of feats in myths. Many ancient cultures used myths to explain the existence of the world. The deluge rain that covered the earth lasted forty days and forty nights. In Korea there's a story about a bear that became a woman by living in a cave for 100 days, eating only garlic and mugwort. Greek mythological creatures called Hecatoncheires have fifty heads and a hundred hands that hold clouds, storms, and shook seas.

Yes. I agree. As I said mythology was used to explain the unknown. What I think that you might be overlooking is that just because something is unknown doesn’t mean that it’s referring to a celestial events. Mythologies were also developed in the opposite way with the celestial bodies representing us mere earthlings. 

2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Mythological heroes also have magic swords. AA had the flaming sword Lightbringer, Rhydderch Hale had a flaming sword too called Dyrnwyn. If drawn by a worthy person, the fire would help his cause. If he was found unworthy, the fire would consume him.

And maybe I’m misunderstanding you, but I’m not sure how this supports the idea of a catastrophic event being the direct cause of a celestial event. Many ancient Kings have been memorialized in the stars.

Look closely. The events in our in world mythologies are actually occurring symbolically witching our current story. 

[Lady Dyanna]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I just find it hard to believe that Ned made it through that fight without a scratch.

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Going back to the colors of dawn and dusk; Ned's dream of a blood streaked sky could very well be the colors of dawn on the morning of the fight.  Red sky in the morning, sailor take warning.

Yeah. I’ve wondered the same thing just because of that old saying. But somehow it’s juxtaposition with Lyanna’s death brings sunset more to my mind.

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I don't actually think the dawn sword (or the Wall) refract light because they are not translucent.  I think they reflect light or shine with light.  The wall takes on the color of the sky, grey, white or blue when it shines with light.  The dawn sword may also reflect the reds of dawn also, making it a red sword alive with light.

 And that also fits with the description of the armor and blades of the ww. Ice is basically a mirror. Heat may consume. But ice reflects. (Just like black light.)

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

So I question whether to dawn sword was alive with light in a similar manner.   

Personally, I think that there’s a very valid argument in the idea that Dawn equates to or actually is Lightbringer.  That said, Stannis’s version seems overdone to me. I can’t get past the idea of it being similar to an opal. 

[Lady Dyanna]

For an example as to how at least one of the mythologies are coming true, Ive pulled an old post of mine that was made elsewhere. This is just one occurrence of it. But when you start to look. There’s evidence everywhere...
 

So, I was listening to the beginning of the House Dayne podcast that LmL did with History of Westeros and he was explaining his comet theory and how it connected to Nissa Nissa and Qartheen myth and during one of the quotes, it dawned on me that he might actually have part of it a bit backwards. I'm not sure that both mythologies are meant to represent the same thing. If they are, it might not actually be related to meteors. Look at the Qartheen myth...
 

“A trader from Qarth once told me that dragons came from the moon,” blond Doreah said as she warmed a towel over the fire. Jhiqui and Irri were of an age with Dany, Dothraki girls taken as slaves when Drogo destroyed their father’s khalasar. Doreah was older, almost twenty. Magister Illyrio had found her in a pleasure house in Lys. Silvery-wet hair tumbled across her eyes as Dany turned her head, curious. “The moon?” 

“He told me the moon was an egg, Khaleesi,” the Lysene girl said. “Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return.” 

The two Dothraki girls giggled and laughed. “You are foolish strawhead slave,” Irri said. “Moon is no egg. Moon is god, woman wife of sun. It is known.” 

“It is known,” Jhiqui agreed.

 

In a way, Doreah and Jhiqui are BOTH right. The moon in the Qartheen myth, isn't an actual moon, but a woman, just like Dany is the moon of Drogo's life and he is her sun and stars. The Sun in the myth just happened to have two wives. I think that one of the wives did exactly what Dany did when she walked into Drogo's pyre. Dany herself is the second moon that cracked to birth the dragons. The Sun and Moon are symbolic of actual people instead of the dragons symbolizing an astrological event.
 

She had sensed the truth of it long ago, Dany thought as she took a step closer to the conflagration, but the brazier had not been hot enough. The flames writhed before her like the women who had danced at her wedding, whirling and singing and spinning their yellow and orange and crimson veils, fearsome to behold, yet lovely, so lovely, alive with heat. Dany opened her arms to them, her skin flushed and glowing. This is a wedding, too, she thought. 

Mirri Maz Duur had fallen silent. The godswife thought her a child, but children grow, and children learn. Another step, and Dany could feel the heat of the sand on the soles of her feet, even through her sandals. Sweat ran down her thighs and between her breasts and in rivulets over her cheeks, where tears had once run. Ser Jorah was shouting behind her, but he did not matter anymore, only the fire mattered. 

The flames were so beautiful, the loveliest things she had ever seen, each one a sorcerer robed in yellow and orange and scarlet, swirling long smoky cloaks. She saw crimson firelions and great yellow serpents and unicorns made of pale blue flame; she saw fish and foxes and monsters, wolves and bright birds and flowering trees, each more beautiful than the last. She saw a horse, a great grey stallion limned in smoke, its flowing mane a nimbus of blue flame. Yes, my love, my sun-and-stars, yes, mount now, ride now. 

Her vest had begun to smolder, so Dany shrugged it off and let it fall to the ground. The painted leather burst into sudden flame as she skipped closer to the fire, her breasts bare to the blaze, streams of milk flowing from her red and swollen nipples. Now, she thought, now, and for an instant she glimpsed Khal Drogo before her, mounted on his smoky stallion, a flaming lash in his hand. He smiled, and the whip snaked down at the pyre, hissing. She heard a crack, the sound of shattering stone.The platform of wood and brush and grass began to shift and collapse in upon itself. Bits of burning wood slid down at her, and Dany was showered with ash and cinders. And something else came crashing down, bouncing and rolling, to land at her feet; a chunk of curved rock, pale and veined with gold, broken and smoking. The roaring filled the world, yet dimly through the firefall Dany heard women shriek and children cry out in wonder. 

Only death can pay for life. 

And there came a second crack, loud and sharp as thunder, and the smoke stirred and whirled around her and the pyre shifted, the logs exploding as the fire touched their secret hearts. She heard the screams of frightened horses, and the voices of the Dothraki raised in shouts of fear and terror, and Ser Jorah calling her name and cursing. No, she wanted to shout to him, no, my good knight, do not fear for me. The fire is mine. I am Daenerys Stormborn, daughter of dragons, bride of dragons, mother of dragons, don’t you see? Don’t you SEE? With a belch of flame and smoke that reached thirty feet into the sky, the pyre collapsed and came down around her. Unafraid, Dany stepped forward into the firestorm, calling to her children. 

The third crack was as loud and sharp as the breaking of the world.

 

Is this passage not a reflection of the moon wandering too close to the sun and birthing dragons in flames? Isn't it much more likely that this same thing is what happened in the past? Or am I crazy?

[Lady Dyanna]

BTW. Khal Drogo WILL be reunited with Dany He’s waiting with the rest of the fallen warriors behind the curtain of light in Valhalla. That’s what MMD’s poem means. Fallen warriors, in general are only know to return to battle at the end of the earth.  Quaithe just gives her the directions on how to get there.

ETA: Could Danny’s passing through the Shadow be more metaphorical? Isn’t this current time a period of wrestling with her own inner demons?  Maybe that’s what it refers to? 

[alienarea]

19 hours ago, Melifeather said:

What I'm getting at is Ice wasn't named "Ice", because it had ice properties or that the original was made of ice, but rather for what it can kill.

Maybe this is how the original Ice got lost? It was used to kill the Others / the Long Night back then and vanished with them, i.e. it was created with (blood?) magic for one purpose only?

[The blood magic being the sacrifice Bran witnessed in his dream. Of the last hero, aka Bran the Builder giving his life so mankind prevails ...]
 

It is the sign of the immature man that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while mature man humbly wants to live for one.*
 

*quoted from memory.

[LynnS]

r

5 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Personally, I think that there’s a very valid argument in the idea that Dawn equates to or actually is Lightbringer.  That said, Stannis’s version seems overdone to me. I can’t get past the idea of it being similar to an opal. 

I'm just going with the old tradition that duels are fought at dawn, rather than sunset.  If the blood streaked sky is a reference to the death of Arthur; then possibly this event is the trigger for the return of the White Walkers; since what follows is the storm of petals, blue as the eyes of death.

[alienarea]

11 minutes ago, LynnS said:

r

I'm just going with the old tradition that duels are fought at dawn, rather than sunset.  If the blood streaked sky is a reference to the death of Arthur; then possibly this event is the trigger for the return of the White Walkers; since what follows is the storm of petals, blue as the eyes of death.

I like that.

Howland Reed is responsible for the rise of the White Walkers, goes into hiding and sends Jojen and Meira to Bran to correct his mistake? 

Crackpot: Howland Reed seems to have disappeared after the ToJ. Did he change something in the light spectrum so that Arthur could not see Dawn, got irritated, which allowed Ned to kill him, and made Howland invisible?

[Black Crow]

12 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

I think this is a great observation. Seems to tie into the idea of ice being reflective to me. Plus black light always seems to make color brighter and yet colder somehow In its reflection. 

Perhaps another way of looking at it is that rainbows [and ice] reflect a light source, but are not a source of light in themselves

[LynnS]

9 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Yeah. I’ve wondered the same thing just because of that old saying. But somehow it’s juxtaposition with Lyanna’s death brings sunset more to my mind.

Well, once again I'm not convinced that Lyanna died at the ToJ since Lady Dustin says that Ned returned with Lyanna's bones.  That's something the Silent Sisters do and they are not talking.  This has to have happened somewhere else, otherwise Ned would have prepared the other bodies to be returned to their relations.  If it is on record somewhere that she died there,  it's another of Ned's many lies told to hide the truth.  

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard X

"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death. 

"Lyanna screaming."  The question in my mind is whether Ned was present during the childbirth  since he speaks of her bed of blood.  Does this happen before or after the ToJ?

As for the Dawn sword, @sweetsunray has convinced me that the sword is damascus steel made from the meteorite, the fallen star.  I also think the forging of Lightbringer is a story of learning to forge this exotic material with two failures.

A meteorite is the core of an asteroid that has been broken apart::

Arthur's excalibur:

 

[Melifeather]

9 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

And all of these characters are human heroes 

Yes. I agree. As I said mythology was used to explain the unknown. What I think that you might be overlooking is that just because something is unknown doesn’t mean that it’s referring to a celestial events. Mythologies were also developed in the opposite way with the celestial bodies representing us mere earthlings. 

And maybe I’m misunderstanding you, but I’m not sure how this supports the idea of a catastrophic event being the direct cause of a celestial event. Many ancient Kings have been memorialized in the stars.

Look closely. The events in our in world mythologies are actually occurring symbolically witching our current story. 

Mythological heroes were created to explain the world. The “doer” in the myth is described as a man, but the event that occurred was a natural phenomenon, albeit a spectacular one.