Heresy 233 A Walk on the White Sid[h]e

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I think Bran is delighted about something and I think its because he's finally figured out how to change the future without harming his remaining family. Add to that Howland's prayer to find a way to "win" and his shield reflecting his delight with the Laughing Tree shield.

As to the KoLT; this bit of information about the Green Knight from wikipedia is interesting:

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In Sir Gawain, the Green Knight is so called because his skin and clothes are green. The meaning of his greenness has puzzled scholars since the discovery of the poem, who identify him variously as the Green Man, a vegetation being of medieval art; a recollection of a figure from Celtic mythology; a Christian symbol; or the Devil himself. The medievalist C. S. Lewis said the character was "as vivid and concrete as any image in literature."^[3] J. R. R. Tolkien called him the "most difficult character" to interpret in the introduction to his edition of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. His major role in Arthurian literature includes being a judge and tester of knights, and as such the other characters consider him as friendly but terrifying and somewhat mysterious.^[3]

Another modern interpretation of the green man decorations in medieval churches is that it represented the transition or bridge between paganism and christianity - the old gods and the new.

Specifically the green man represents spring or death, resurrection or renewal.  Herne the Hunter or Cernunnos are the horned gods wearing antlers driven by lust and procreation, god of fertility, life and hunting.  Robert seems to encapsulate all the characteristics of Cernunnous and Bacchus combined.  So too, Garth Greenhand.  He sounds like the first Green King:

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According to some legends, Garth Greenhand was the High King who led the First Men across the Arm of Dorne. Other tales claim he predated the arrival of the First Men, making not only the first human in Westeros but also the only human, and that he interacted with the children of the forest and giants. In some tales he is a god, and in a few of these, the oldest ones, he demands blood sacrifice from his worshippers to ensure a bountiful harvest; in some stories the green god dies every autumn, only to be reborn with the coming of spring. Some tales claim he had green hands, green hair or green skin overall, or antlers like a stag.

And hence the Order of the Green Hand.  Garth must have been there grafting the oak to the weirwood.  My guess is this is the point where men enter the weirnet.  I'm also guessing that their dark hearts didn't arrive until later.

[Melifeather]

28 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Another modern interpretation of the green man decorations in medieval churches is that it represented the transition or bridge between paganism and christianity - the old gods and the new.

Specifically the green man represents spring or death, resurrection or renewal.  Herne the Hunter or Cernunnos are the horned gods wearing antlers driven by lust and procreation, god of fertility, life and hunting.  Robert seems to encapsulate all the characteristics of Cernunnous and Bacchus combined.  So too, Garth Greenhand.  He sounds like the first Green King:

I was reading the synopsis for the '70's horror film, The Wicker Man (the Nicholas Cage version is a remake). Lord Summerisle reintroduces the laborers on his island to the pagan Celtic gods, believing that by sacrifice, the old gods would intercede and make his fruit trees prosper in the harsh Scottish climate. We get some of this vibe in our story with the sacrifices Craster made and the implied evidence of skulls and bones inside Bloodraven's cave.

[Frey family reunion]

10 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I was reading the synopsis for the '70's horror film, The Wicker Man (the Nicholas Cage version is a remake). Lord Summerisle reintroduces the laborers on his island to the pagan Celtic gods, believing that by sacrifice, the old gods would intercede and make his fruit trees prosper in the harsh Scottish climate. We get some of this vibe in our story with the sacrifices Craster made and the implied evidence of skulls and bones inside Bloodraven's cave.

Also with the charred remains of a child found inside of the Weirwood at White Tree.

[Melifeather]

There are other parallels in the synopsis that I thought sounded like they could apply to our story:

Police Sergeant Neil Howie journeys by seaplane to the remote Hebridean island Summerisle to investigate the disappearance of a young girl, Rowan Morrison, about whom he has received an anonymous letter. Howie, a devout Christian, is disturbed to find the Islanders paying homage to the pagan Celtic gods of their ancestors. They copulate openly in the fields, include children as part of the May Day celebrations, teach children of the phallic association of the maypole, and place toads in their mouths to cure sore throats. The Islanders, including Rowan's own mother, appear to be attempting to thwart his investigation by claiming that Rowan never existed.

While staying at the Green Man Inn, Howie notices a series of photographs celebrating the annual harvest, each featuring a young girl as the May Queen. The photograph of the most recent celebration is suspiciously missing; the landlord tells him it was broken. The landlord's beautiful daughter, Willow, attempts to seduce Howie, but despite his inner turmoil he refuses her advances. He enters the local school and enquires about Rowan among the students, but all deny her existence. He checks the school register and finds Rowan's name in it. He questions the schoolteacher and she tells him about her burial plot.

After seeing Rowan's burial plot, Howie meets the island's leader, Lord Summerisle, grandson of a Victorian agronomist, to obtain permission for an exhumation. Summerisle explains that his grandfather developed strains of fruit trees that would prosper in Scotland's climate, and encouraged the belief that old gods would use the new strains to bring prosperity to the island. Over the next several generations, the island's inhabitants fully embraced pagan religion.

Howie finds the missing harvest photograph, showing Rowan standing amidst empty boxes; the harvest had failed. His research reveals that when there is a poor harvest, the islanders make a human sacrifice to ensure that the next harvest will be bountiful. He comes to the conclusion that Rowan is alive and has been chosen for sacrifice. Realising he is out of his depth, Howie returns to his seaplane only to discover it is no longer functional, preventing him from leaving or calling for assistance. Later that day during the May Day celebration, Howie knocks out and ties up the innkeeper so he can steal his costume and mask (that of Punch, the fool) and infiltrate the parade. When it seems the villagers are about to sacrifice Rowan, he cuts her free and flees with her into a cave. Exiting it, they are intercepted by the islanders, to whom Rowan happily returns.

Summerisle tells Howie that Rowan was never the intended sacrifice: Howie himself is. He fits their gods' four requirements: he came of his own free will, has "the power of a king" (by representing the Law), is a virgin, and is a fool. Defiant, Howie loudly warns Summerisle and the islanders that the fruit-tree strains are failing permanently and that the villagers will turn on Summerisle and sacrifice him next summer when the next harvest fails as well; Summerisle angrily insists that the sacrifice of the "willing, king-like, virgin fool" will be accepted and that the next harvest will not fail. The villagers force Howie inside a giant wicker man statue along with various animals, set it ablaze and surround it, singing the Middle English folk song "Sumer Is Icumen In". Inside the wicker man, a terrified Howie recites Psalm 23, and prays to God before cursing the islanders as he and the animals burn to death. The head of the wicker man collapses in flames, revealing the setting sun.

[Frey family reunion]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

Yes the business of Beric sitting on weirwood throne and the GOHH telling Thoros that even here, wood is stronger than fire an will not see anything in his flames.  And yet he raises Beric once again after Sandor kills him in that place.  Permission granted?

My take is that there is a difference between Thoros' ability to see the future in the flames and in his ability to resurect Beric.  To the best of my knowledge Thoros could always to some extent be able to see the future in the flames, even when he resided in Essos.

But reincarnating someone was not a thing that Thoros (or any Red Priest) could do.  After all Thoros thought he was just giving a symbolic funeral ritual to Beric, he never expected him to come back to life.  

So the Weirwoods seem to block the ability to see the future in the flames, but not the magic to resurect Beric.  The reason may be that the resurection had more to do with the Old Gods than it did the Red Priest's religion.

[Melifeather]

10 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

My take is that there is a difference between Thoros' ability to see the future in the flames and in his ability to resurect Beric.  To the best of my knowledge Thoros could always to some extent be able to see the future in the flames, even when he resided in Essos.

But reincarnating someone was not a thing that Thoros (or any Red Priest) could do.  After all Thoros thought he was just giving a symbolic funeral ritual to Beric, he never expected him to come back to life.  

So the Weirwoods seem to block the ability to see the future in the flames, but not the magic to resurect Beric.  The reason may be that the resurection had more to do with the Old Gods than it did the Red Priest's religion.

I dunno, I think the funeral rite was based upon fire magic. It just became a rite when magic died out. Magic is universal and can be worked by fire or ice rituals. The only difference is that fire consumes while ice preserves...and just typing that makes me wonder if you're actually correct in concluding that Beric and Lady Stoneheart were raised with the preserving ice magic rather than the consuming fire magic? Its just that Thoros "breathed" fire down into Beric's lungs, so that should have been a fire ritual - at least you'd think so.

[LynnS]

1 minute ago, Frey family reunion said:

The reason may be that the resurection had more to do with the Old Gods than it did the Red Priest's religion.

I'm not sure what "him of fire" can do in the places where the old gods are strong.  BR and Bran cause Mel to bleed black blood when they jump into her mind and show themselves in disguise.  She can't see through the mask they wear to identify them.  Bran mocks her.  He later tells Ghost-Jon that he isn't afraid anymore.  He can see them but they can't see him in spite of Mel's attempts to find her enemy.  She sees someone but dismisses it because she is expecting a more terrible face.  I suspect she saw Hodor.

It seems to me that Thoros was able to resurrect Beric because the old gods allowed it; didn't interfere with Thoros magick.  Perhaps they gave him a power boost.

  

[Frey family reunion]

1 minute ago, Melifeather said:

I dunno, I think the funeral rite was based upon fire magic. It just became a rite when magic died out. Magic is universal and can be worked by fire or ice rituals. The only difference is that fire consumes while ice preserves...and just typing that makes me wonder if you're actually correct in concluding that Beric and Lady Stoneheart were raised with the preserving ice magic rather than the consuming fire magic?

Except that the magic never really died out in the East, did it?  There were always aeromancers, pyromancers, blood mages, shadow binders ect.  But to the best of my knowledge there was never any discussion of pyromances or Red Priests, or anyone else bringing someone back from the dead.

Perhaps the closest clue we have to the ability to resurect in the East is what Mirri said of Blood Magic.  A life for a life.  But even that seemed to be limited to those who had not yet actually died.

We don't have any historical record of the Red Priests bringing anyone back from the dead.  At least I don't think we do.

The closest historical record regarding resurrections appears to be the tale of the Grey King on Pyke.  And even that resurrection seemed to involve both water and fire.

[Melifeather]

5 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

The closest historical record regarding resurrections appears to be the tale of the Grey King on Pyke.  And even that resurrection seemed to involve both water and fire.

Don't forget "air". The Ironborn purposely drown believers and resuscitate them by breathing air into their lungs, which I believe is also paralleled by the dead rising as wights when the cold air rises north of the Wall.

[Frey family reunion]

34 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Don't forget "air". The Ironborn purposely drown believers and resuscitate them by breathing air into their lungs, which I believe is also paralleled by the dead rising as wights when the cold air rises north of the Wall.

I think the CPR that Aeron gives the initiates, which they call the "kiss of life",  is more of a symbolic attempt to replicate the feats of the first Grey King.  But his legend also seems to involve fire, which is missing from the current rituals of the Drowned Gods:

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It is the flame the Drowned God brought from the sea

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It was the Grey King who brought fire to the earth by taunting the Storm God until he lashed down with a thunderbolt, setting a tree ablaze

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The hall had been warmed by Nagga's living fire which the Grey King had made his thrall.

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The Storm God drowned Nagga's fire after the Grey King's death,

And I know that a theory has been bandied about that Nagga's bones may actually be petrified Weirwoods.

So when you put it all together you have an ancient religion that may have centered around petrified Weirwoods, sacrificial drownings, resurections, kiss of life, and a living flame.  Basically all of the ingredients that seem to surround Beric's resurection.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think the CPR that Aeron gives the initiates, which they call the "kiss of life",  is more of a symbolic attempt to replicate the feats of the first Grey King.  But his legend also seems to involve fire, which is missing from the current rituals of the Drowned Gods:

 

And I know that a theory has been bandied about that Nagga's bones may actually be petrified Weirwoods.

So when you put it all together you have an ancient religion that may have centered around petrified Weirwoods, sacrificial drownings, resurections, kiss of life, and a living flame.  Basically all of the ingredients that seem to surround Beric's resurection.

Yeah, I agree with all this, but air is necessary for fire. Snuffing out Nagga's living flame would include removing air or the magic, which was probably a ritual that combined several elements.

[LynnS]

I think the sea-dragon Nagga is Martin's take on the Naga deity from the eastern religions. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nāga#Buddhism

There is also a reference to the green men and Naga here:

https://spiritofthegreenman.co.uk/green-man-legend-mythology/ 

Naga could very well be a fyreworm from the Essos, capable of swimming in the sea, but not capable of flight.   

[Melifeather]

Could "living flame" just simply mean "life-force"? I'm wondering if GRRM's choice of wording is intended to lead us to the conclusion that Nagga was a dragon when that might not be the case - at least its too simplistic as an interpretation. Damphair called her a sea-dragon, and that it was the Grey King that had slain her. He also stated that the Grey King had made Nagga's "living flame" his "thrall".

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A Feast for Crows - The Drowned Man

On the crown of the hill four-and-forty monstrous stone ribs rose from the earth like the trunks of great pale trees. The sight made Aeron's heart beat faster. Nagga had been the first sea dragon, the mightiest ever to rise from the waves. She fed on krakens and leviathans and drowned whole islands in her wrath, yet the Grey King had slain her and the Drowned God had changed her bones to stone so that men might never cease to wonder at the courage of the first of kings. Nagga's ribs became the beams and pillars of his longhall, just as her jaws became his throne. For a thousand years and seven he reigned here, Aeron recalled. Here he took his mermaid wife and planned his wars against the Storm God. From here he ruled both stone and salt, wearing robes of woven seaweed and a tall pale crown made from Nagga's teeth.

But that was in the dawn of days, when mighty men still dwelt on earth and sea. The hall had been warmed by Nagga's living fire, which the Grey King had made his thrall. On its walls hung tapestries woven from silver seaweed most pleasing to the eyes. The Grey King's warriors had feasted on the bounty of the sea at a table in the shape of a great starfish, whilst seated upon thrones carved from mother-of-pearl. Gone, all the glory gone. Men were smaller now. Their lives had grown short. The Storm God drowned Nagga's fire after the Grey King's death, the chairs and tapestries had been stolen, the roof and walls had rotted away. Even the Grey King's great throne of fangs had been swallowed by the sea. Only Nagga's bones endured to remind the ironborn of all the wonder that had been.

A "thrall" is an indentured servant, so if the Grey King killed Nagga prior to making her his thrall, then Nagga was an undead servant. Sort of like Coldhands except a sea-creature rather than a human-creature. Putting out Nagga's "living-flame" must have involved figuring out a way to kill an undead creature which we know can be done with iron swords or by fire.

 

[Melifeather]

Getting back to @Frey family reunion's idea that Thoros's ritual worked because it drew on ice magic and turning the focus a bit, blowing flames into Beric's lungs is a mock reenactment of transferring a "living flame" into the corpse, thereby raising it as a thrall - a servant.

[Melifeather]

If Nagga was an undead sea-dragon or sea-creature, then it might explain a couple other tales like krakens attacking ships or even ice spiders. The Grey King could have commanded his thrall (Nagga) to make attacks, and other followers of the Grey King had their own thralls that they had animated from the dead. When the Grey King died, Nagga's flame went out. In other words it was released from bondage. The tales say the Grey King died by purposely walking into the sea to join the Drowned God, so if the Grey King drowned then the living flame that animated Nagga "drowned" along with him. Which makes me wonder if the only way to kill Lady Stoneheart would be to kill Thoros?

[Frey family reunion]

Regarding the White Walkers possible ties to the Starks.  I watched an interesting video the other day, which opined about possible Brandon Stark bastards that might be in the story.  And though, they didn't include my favorite Brandon bastard theory (Jon), they did include one that might tie into the Heresy theory that the White Walkers are linked to the Stark bloodline.

One of the video's possible culprits for being a Brandon bastard, is Waymar Royce.  While we don't know if Brandon ever specifically travelled to the Vale, it seems fairly probable that he did.  When he rushed to King's Landing with his crew, a number of them were Valemen.  Specifically, Elbert Arryn and Kyle Royce, a cousin to the main Royce branch.  Which implied that either Royce and Arryn had spent time with Brandon in Winterfell or Barrowtown, or that Brandon had spent time in the Eyrie and/or Runestone. 

If Runestone, it's at least possible that a young, tall handsome, and horny Brandon may have had contact with Yohn Royce's wife.  

Here is a description of Waymar: 

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He was a handsome youth of eighteen, grey-eyed and graceful and slender as a knife. Mounted on his huge black destrier, the knight towered above Will and Gared on their smaller garrons. He wore black leather boots, black woolen pants, black moleskin gloves, and a fine supple coat of gleaming black ringmail over layers of black wool and boiled leather.

Slender, graceful and grey-eyed sounds a bit like Jon Snow.

And interestingly enough, Bronze Yohn stops at Winterfell and pays a visit enroute to bringing Waymar to the Wall.  And if Yohn suspected that his youngest son may not be his, it might explain his reasons for brining him to the Night's Watch.

And if Waymar was Brandon's bastard, then it might explain why the White Walkers all decided to take a dip into Waymar's blood.

[Black Crow]

That's an interesting one and plausible, but if true, I've difficulty is seeing it as more than a footnote, given that he went west in the first couple of pages.

[Black Crow]

21 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

My take is that there is a difference between Thoros' ability to see the future in the flames and in his ability to resurect Beric.  To the best of my knowledge Thoros could always to some extent be able to see the future in the flames, even when he resided in Essos.

But reincarnating someone was not a thing that Thoros (or any Red Priest) could do.  After all Thoros thought he was just giving a symbolic funeral ritual to Beric, he never expected him to come back to life.  

So the Weirwoods seem to block the ability to see the future in the flames, but not the magic to resurect Beric.  The reason may be that the resurection had more to do with the Old Gods than it did the Red Priest's religion.

I believe that I can go along with this one, and it might also help explain why Beric feels himself fading away - rather as Varamyr explains a the soul of a skinchanger fading away when in a second life trapped in a host. To get anywhere with the theory, however, we need to identify the real trigger for the apparent resurrection.

[alienarea]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

To get anywhere with the theory, however, we need to identify the real trigger for the apparent resurrection.

The trees have eyes again?

Either this, or it is connected with Jaqen roaming in Westeros.

[Black Crow]

11 hours ago, alienarea said:

The trees have eyes again?

Either this, or it is connected with Jaqen roaming in Westeros.

Of the two, I'd go for the eyes. The implication is that trees are wakening