Was Kevan Lannister an idiot or a plotter?

[Lord Varys]

If you look at Tyrion then he was definitely capable of murdering Joffrey. He did arrange the murder of the singer out of spite, he murdered Shae and his own father, and he later even became a poisoner with his hidden mushrooms.

If Joff had lived another 1-3 years or so and had decided to keep his promise regarding a rape of Sansa ... or if he had continued to mistreat and humiliate Tyrion - and Tyrion had not been able/allowed to leave court for good, he may very well have snapped and killed Joffrey.

He already could have killed him back when he was beating him up. Joff could have hit his head and died from such an injury.

3 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Okay... I agree with most of what you said, but come on. Kevan giving Tyrion every opportunity to explain himself was NOT Tywin's bidding. Tywin wanted the excuse to finally get rid of Tyrion once and for all. It's debatable whether he'd have really given Tyrion the chance to go north to the Wall, but I don't believe it, personally. Tywin's treatment of Tyion is textbook abusive in so many ways, with so many examples to verify it. Kevan was way more open to Tyrion's case than Tywin ever was. 

I'd expect that Kevan did not go to Tyrion without Tywin's leave and knowledge. But I agree that Tywin not visiting Tyrion himself and never asking him directly whether he did it or not very much shows that Tywin most likely believed Tyrion did it and used the affair as a pretext/way to rid himself of Tyrion for good.

There wouldn't have been a trial if Jaime had stood accused of murdering Joffrey. He would have been acquitted immediately regardless what the Tyrells would have said.

[Bernie Mac]

22 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Okay... I agree with most of what you said, but come on. Kevan giving Tyrion every opportunity to explain himself was NOT Tywin's bidding. Tywin wanted the excuse to finally get rid of Tyrion once and for all.

I don't get this train of thought at all. Tywin made him Master of Coin, had him married to the heiress of the North. Tywin was not trying to rid himself of his son. He was adamant that Jaime, not Tyrion, would have the Rock. But that is a far cry from wanting rid of him.

Tyrion was badly injured in the aftermath of the Blackwater. If Tywin wanted rid of him he'd have had him quietly killed at that point.

Tyrion's power, his entire relevancy at court is down to his father's nepotism. It is not Cersei, joffrey or Mace who want him around.

22 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

 

It's debatable whether he'd have really given Tyrion the chance to go north to the Wall, but I don't believe it, personally.

Kevan says it, and I don't see a reason why Kevan would lie. The option was definitely there before the trial by combat.

But if you are referring to Tywin's offer with a crossbow aimed at his chest, then sure, that was likely said to save his own life.

22 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

 

Tywin's treatment of Tyion is textbook abusive in so many ways, with so many examples to verify it.

Really? Outside of the gangrape, which was truly abhorrent and more than reason enough for Tyrion to murder Tywin, I'm not sure it was.

 Can you give these many examples?

22 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

 

Kevan was way more open to Tyrion's case than Tywin ever was. 

Debatable.

Tywin does not love his son, but he also has no interest in someone who murdered his Grandson going free or the further taint on House Lannister with his son being named a Kingslayer and Kinslayer.

Tywin would actually be invested in Tyrion's innocence. I imagine it was only being Tywin's son that allowed him a fair trial in the first place. If Tywin was not about he'd probably have had a confession tortured out of him.

[CamiloRP]

50 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

and he later even became a poisoner with his hidden mushrooms.

I don't think he used them yet.

 

Also, on a sidenote to no one in particular. Am I the only one who thinks Jaimie should've been Tyrion's champion? wouldn't that make Tywin/Cersei chose another champion and rig the match?

[Lord Varys]

15 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

I don't think he used them yet.

He used them to kill Nurse in ADwD. Might be he still has some left but he already used them to poison somebody.

 

[CamiloRP]

22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

He used them to kill Nurse in ADwD. Might be he still has some left but he already used them to poison somebody.

 

I just searched it in the wiki and man, completely missed that!

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, CamiloRP said:

I don't think he used them yet.

 

Also, on a sidenote to no one in particular. Am I the only one who thinks Jaimie should've been Tyrion's champion? wouldn't that make Tywin/Cersei chose another champion and rig the match?

Could Tyrion, accused of murdering the King, actually pick a Kingsguard member to defend him?

I'm not even sure Jaime, even if fit, would accept. His rep would take a further beating.  Nor do I think Cersei would back down even if Jaime volunteered. Her son was murdered and she was convinced it was Tyrion. She is not going to accept a weak champion for the dead king's cause.

[CamiloRP]

6 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Could Tyrion, accused of murdering the King, actually pick a Kingsguard member to defend him?

That's a good question, I imagine yes, as the base of trial by combat is 'the goods showing the truth', what's more like divine intervention than a KG deciding to protect a suspect of murdering the King?

 

7 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

I'm not even sure Jaime, even if fit, would accept. His rep would take a further beating. 

But that's Jaime's whole shtick, he would definitely put Tyrion's life before his reputation.

 

8 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Nor do I think Cersei would back down even if Jaime volunteered. Her son was murdered and she was convinced it was Tyrion. She is not going to accept a weak champion for the dead king's cause.

This is true, it's a strong possibility, yet I don't know if Jaime realizes this, and also Tywin wouldn't let her murder Jaime, he would do anything in his power to have her chose a weak champion.

[Angel Eyes]

On whether or not Kevan truly thought Tyrion was guilty: is it possible that it's the mindset of back then, guilty until proven innocent, that sort of thing? Ask Esmeralda from The Hunchback of Notre Dame about that when she's accused of stabbing Phoebus (this ain't Disney), then is tortured until she "confesses". In-story, Ned and Catelyn believe Tyrion is guilty of ordering Bran's murder until he points out the flaws in their reasoning; nobody would give an assassin such a nice blade, and Tyrion would never bet against a Lannister.

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

Ser Kevan was a good man who served a bad cause.  This is according to Varys.  The man himself was content in his place.  But the fact that Varys wants him out of the way is proof of his competence. 

[Castellan]

Kevan was competent and content to support his brother. But notice how once Tywin is gone his own ambition starts to emerge, and he does things Tywin would never ever have countenanced. There is no way Tywin would have permitted his daughter to take the walk of shame, it would have driven him mad with anger. She is his daughter, and a Lannister, no-one would be allowed to humiliate her. I think he had realised she was a liability and was prepared to send her off to Dorne - but public humiliation, no. Likewise there is a moment when Kevan starts to think something like "Jaime would be a problem...".

As to not giving Tyrion a chance etc, he has shown he is with Tywin in despising Tyrion, and he sticks to the letter of the law, Tyrion gets a trial and the opportunity to present witnesses, he does look guilty and its Cersei who puts together the misleading testimony of Crown witnesses. Kevan takes the lead from Tywin. I get the impression that Tywin did believe Tyrion was guilty, at least in the heat of the moment when Cersei accuses him. There is no other obvious suspect. He might see Sansa as involved but that might also indicate collusion with Tyrion. I think it would be hard for him to make the leap and think the Tyrells might be involved, because from his point of view, they got what they want from the marriage. It was the female Tyrells who didn't want Margaery to endure such a horrible husband, I don't think that motive would occur to Tywin any more than it would occur to Mace.

[John Suburbs]

On 11/6/2020 at 12:10 PM, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Okay... I agree with most of what you said, but come on. Kevan giving Tyrion every opportunity to explain himself was NOT Tywin's bidding. Tywin wanted the excuse to finally get rid of Tyrion once and for all. It's debatable whether he'd have really given Tyrion the chance to go north to the Wall, but I don't believe it, personally. Tywin's treatment of Tyion is textbook abusive in so many ways, with so many examples to verify it. Kevan was way more open to Tyrion's case than Tywin ever was. 

Kevan doesn't do anything without Tywin's approval, and Tywin has no reason to deny Tyrion a fair trial. Tywin does not want to get rid of Tyrion once and for all. He never wanted that, otherwise he would not have made him acting Hand, Master of Coin, potential Lord Regent of Winterfell . . . 

In what way was Tywin abusive to Tyrion? The Tysha thing? That was harsh, especially for her, but Tyrion was the one who f'd up by marrying without Tywin's leave. Lordlings cannot not do that, especially to a commoner. And for all we know, and Tywin would have been convinced by this, Tysha was just another gold digger like Tytos' paramour. So I'd be interested to see the examples that verify this abuse. It seems to me that Tywin provided Tyrion with far more than Tyrion deserved.

[Lord Varys]

20 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Kevan doesn't do anything without Tywin's approval, and Tywin has no reason to deny Tyrion a fair trial. Tywin does not want to get rid of Tyrion once and for all. He never wanted that, otherwise he would not have made him acting Hand, Master of Coin, potential Lord Regent of Winterfell . . . 

In what way was Tywin abusive to Tyrion? The Tysha thing? That was harsh, especially for her, but Tyrion was the one who f'd up by marrying without Tywin's leave. Lordlings cannot not do that, especially to a commoner. And for all we know, and Tywin would have been convinced by this, Tysha was just another gold digger like Tytos' paramour. So I'd be interested to see the examples that verify this abuse. It seems to me that Tywin provided Tyrion with far more than Tyrion deserved.

That's for the most part just false. Tywin uses and discardes Tyrion as he sees fits. He is made Acting Hand because Tywin no longer has his real son, Jaime, and fears he might already be dead. After Tyrion plays a crucial role in saving the city, Tywin does nothing to honor him publicly or privately. Later Tyrion is married to Sansa because Littlefinger informs them of the impending Willas marriage ... just as Littlefinger arranges for the appointment as Master of Coin because he leaves KL. This is neither a reward nor an acknowledgement of Tyrion's worth but just another way to use Tyrion as a pawn.

Tywin never had any intention to give Tyrion either Sansa's hand nor the office of Master of Coin. And the Sansa thing and Winterfell is a means to get rid of Tyrion, not to reward him. As Tywin's only son outside the KG Tyrion is entitled to Casterly Rock and the West, not to serve his father as a pawn and patsy in the North ... where he most likely would fail in the end, anyway, because there is just no chance that Tyrion could have lasting success as Lord of Winterfell. The Northmen would never respect or accept a dwarf as their overlord ... even if he wasn't a Lannister and their sworn enemy.

17 hours ago, Castellan said:

Kevan was competent and content to support his brother. But notice how once Tywin is gone his own ambition starts to emerge, and he does things Tywin would never ever have countenanced. There is no way Tywin would have permitted his daughter to take the walk of shame, it would have driven him mad with anger. She is his daughter, and a Lannister, no-one would be allowed to humiliate her. I think he had realised she was a liability and was prepared to send her off to Dorne - but public humiliation, no. Likewise there is a moment when Kevan starts to think something like "Jaime would be a problem...".

Kevan is not Cersei's father, so his priorities are different, of course. But Tywin would have done the same thing as Kevan did if this had been necessary to preserve the Lannister-Tyrell alliance.

 

[John Suburbs]

On 11/9/2020 at 11:18 AM, Lord Varys said:

That's for the most part just false. Tywin uses and discardes Tyrion as he sees fits. He is made Acting Hand because Tywin no longer has his real son, Jaime, and fears he might already be dead. After Tyrion plays a crucial role in saving the city, Tywin does nothing to honor him publicly or privately. Later Tyrion is married to Sansa because Littlefinger informs them of the impending Willas marriage ... just as Littlefinger arranges for the appointment as Master of Coin because he leaves KL. This is neither a reward nor an acknowledgement of Tyrion's worth but just another way to use Tyrion as a pawn.

Tywin never had any intention to give Tyrion either Sansa's hand nor the office of Master of Coin. And the Sansa thing and Winterfell is a means to get rid of Tyrion, not to reward him. As Tywin's only son outside the KG Tyrion is entitled to Casterly Rock and the West, not to serve his father as a pawn and patsy in the North ... where he most likely would fail in the end, anyway, because there is just no chance that Tyrion could have lasting success as Lord of Winterfell. The Northmen would never respect or accept a dwarf as their overlord ... even if he wasn't a Lannister and their sworn enemy.

Kevan is not Cersei's father, so his priorities are different, of course. But Tywin would have done the same thing as Kevan did if this had been necessary to preserve the Lannister-Tyrell alliance.

 

Tywin uses and discards everyone as he sees fit. He could have chose anyone to be his acting. He chose Tyrion. Why?:

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"Why not my uncle? Why not Ser Adam or Ser Flement or Ser Serrett? Why not a . . . bigger man?"

Lord Tywin rose abruptly. "You are my son."

And Tyrion then thinks that Tywin has given up on Jaime, but this is not likely to be the case. Tywin knows they have Sansa, so nothing is going to happen to Jaime.

Tywin could have also married Sansa to any Lannister, but he chose Tyrion. If he did not want Tyrion to become lord regent of one of the most powerful houses in the realm, he would have chose someone else. The northern lords will accept Tyrion once he rids the north of the ironmen and Tyrion is the father of Ned Stark's grandson -- just like the Stormlanders accepted a Baratheon after he killed the last Durandon and married his daughter, and just like the Reach accepted the Tyrells. Tyrion is a crafty little guy. He knows how to build political support.

Tyrion was half-dead when all the honors were being handed out. Yeah, he probably should have gotten something later, but all he really did was build a chain. He didn't commit any heroic acts of valor on the field, and even the chain was hardly the decisive element in the battle.

And LF may have recommended Tyrion for MoC, but it was Tywin who decided. Again, he could have chosen anyone, but he chose Tyrion. This, in fact, was his honor and reward for his service as acting Hand and during the battle, but Tyrion is too petty to see it. His father has done him a great honor here. And literally everyone is Tywin's pawn: Tyrion, Cersei, Joffrey, Kevan, all his lords and knights, they are all in service to Tywin Lannister. He's the man.

If Tywin wanted to get rid of Tyrion, he had ample opportunity to do so before he was even weaned, let alone when he lay dying in the Red Keep under the care of Pycelle.

[Bernie Mac]

On 11/9/2020 at 4:18 PM, Lord Varys said:

That's for the most part just false. Tywin uses and discardes Tyrion as he sees fits. He is made Acting Hand because Tywin no longer has his real son, Jaime, and fears he might already be dead. After Tyrion plays a crucial role in saving the city, Tywin does nothing to honor him publicly or privately.

What are you talking about?

"And you want your own reward, is that it? Very well. What is it you would have of me? Lands, castle, some office?"

He makes him the Master of Coin and gives him the potential heiress of the North.

Tywin absolutely rewards him for his exploits. Tyrion was unlucky to be in a coma when the battle was being celebrated. Are you suggesting that Tywin should have delayed them till Tyrion was healthy?

Privately Tywin informs him that he did well.

"Your chain was a clever stroke, and crucial to our victory. Is that what you wanted to hear? I am told we have you to thank for our Dornish alliance as well. You may be pleased to learn that Myrcella has arrived safely at Sunspear. Ser Arys Oakheart writes that she has taken a great liking to Princess Arianne, and that Prince Trystane is enchanted with her. I mislike giving House Martell a hostage, but I suppose that could not be helped."

So not only is Tywin's contribution acknowledged but it is also rewarded. If you are expected more from Tywin then that is simply not in his character.

 

On 11/9/2020 at 4:18 PM, Lord Varys said:

 

 

Later Tyrion is married to Sansa because Littlefinger informs them of the impending Willas marriage ... just as Littlefinger arranges for the appointment as Master of Coin because he leaves KL. This is neither a reward nor an acknowledgement of Tyrion's worth but just another way to use Tyrion as a pawn.

No, you are wrong. Being made Master of Coin, potentially being given the North are rewards. You can't just write them off as meaningless because they don't fit your head cannon.

There are others more qualified than Tyrion to sit on the Small Council, there are other Lannisters and loyalists who could have married Sansa. Tyrion is the one rewarded with these positions.

On 11/9/2020 at 4:18 PM, Lord Varys said:

Tywin never had any intention to give Tyrion either Sansa's hand nor the office of Master of Coin.

What on earth are you talking about? He gave him both of them.

On 11/9/2020 at 4:18 PM, Lord Varys said:

 

And the Sansa thing and Winterfell is a means to get rid of Tyrion, not to reward him.

Who is forcing Tyrion on Tywin?

This is simply not logical. The North is not the price to get rid of Tyrion. Tyrion's power comes exclusively from his father's vaults. Without his last name he is nothing. Tywin does not need to go to the extravagance you are suggesting to rid himself of Tyrion.

On 11/9/2020 at 4:18 PM, Lord Varys said:

 

As Tywin's only son outside the KG Tyrion is entitled to Casterly Rock and the West, not to serve his father as a pawn and patsy in the North

If that is the case then why does Tyrion make such a big deal about asking for it?

Either it's his or it's not.

Healthy heirs from his marriage to Sansa, power and influence from his position on the Small Council. Tyrion, thanks to his father, is in a stronger position to inherit than he was before the start of the series.

On 11/9/2020 at 4:18 PM, Lord Varys said:

 

... where he most likely would fail in the end, anyway, because there is just no chance that Tyrion could have lasting success as Lord of Winterfell. The Northmen would never respect or accept a dwarf as their overlord

He'd not be their overlord. His son would be.

On 11/9/2020 at 4:18 PM, Lord Varys said:

 

... even if he wasn't a Lannister and their sworn enemy.

Then your argument about getting rid of him makes no sense. Tywin was not about to be sent North until after the Winter, till he had a son.

Tyrion was about to spend the next few years on the Small Council. A clever person could use than power and influence for gain.

 

[Lord Varys]

9 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

What are you talking about?

"And you want your own reward, is that it? Very well. What is it you would have of me? Lands, castle, some office?"

He makes him the Master of Coin and gives him the potential heiress of the North.

That is rhetorical, mocking question considering Tywin himself hadn't yet come up with a proper reward for his son.

The Master of Coin position is only free after Littlefinger volunteered to go to the Vale, and the Sansa idea wasn't even Tywin's. He didn't think of that before the Willas plan of the Tyrells came to his attention.

9 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Tywin absolutely rewards him for his exploits. Tyrion was unlucky to be in a coma when the battle was being celebrated. Are you suggesting that Tywin should have delayed them till Tyrion was healthy?

Now, but he should, if he had cared to reward him at all, thrown as much rewards and favors on him as he did on Mace Tyrell and his cronies during the council session and before. He should have declared Tyrion co-savior of the city alongside himself and included his name in the celebrations.

9 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Privately Tywin informs him that he did well.

"Your chain was a clever stroke, and crucial to our victory. Is that what you wanted to hear? I am told we have you to thank for our Dornish alliance as well. You may be pleased to learn that Myrcella has arrived safely at Sunspear. Ser Arys Oakheart writes that she has taken a great liking to Princess Arianne, and that Prince Trystane is enchanted with her. I mislike giving House Martell a hostage, but I suppose that could not be helped."

So not only is Tywin's contribution acknowledged but it is also rewarded. If you are expected more from Tywin then that is simply not in his character.

It isn't in his character to give Tyrion more than that, I grant you that, but he treats other members of his family much better than the dwarf.

9 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, you are wrong. Being made Master of Coin, potentially being given the North are rewards. You can't just write them off as meaningless because they don't fit your head cannon.

I didn't say they were meaningless, I said they were not proper rewards, especially not the North nonsense. The son of the Lord of Casterly Rock should succeed to Casterly Rock and the West. If you throw some other castle - any castle - at your de facto heir (and Tyrion views himself as Tywin's heir even if he was never declared heir of Casterly Rock) then this is a humiliation not a reward. You are cheated out of what you view as your rightful inheritance.

9 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

There are others more qualified than Tyrion to sit on the Small Council, there are other Lannisters and loyalists who could have married Sansa. Tyrion is the one rewarded with these positions.

Tyrion is pretty qualified to sit on the council as he proved during his time as Acting Hand. Kevan doesn't need a council seat as such, he will be always at Tywin's side. What other Lannisters are 'more qualified' than Tyrion?

And, no, there aren't any Lannisters around at court who could have married Sansa. They would have to send for somebody and then they would have risked that their intentions were revealed before the marriage was made, meaning the Tyrells could have asked for Sansa before the Lannisters had married her to one of their own. And then they couldn't have refused them as the novel makes clear.

It seems obvious to me that the entire Sansa thing was Tywin's 'replacement reward' for Tyrion after he gave him his dressing down and told him he would never have Casterly Rock. It was a means to pacify him and to put him in his place.

9 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

This is simply not logical. The North is not the price to get rid of Tyrion. Tyrion's power comes exclusively from his father's vaults. Without his last name he is nothing. Tywin does not need to go to the extravagance you are suggesting to rid himself of Tyrion.

Every son is just who is father is, and, yes, that's more the case for Tyrion than others because he is a dwarf. But within the framework of the society he lives in Tyrion can expect, demand even, than he be his father's heir and not his father's stooge in a shitty castle full of enemies at the end of the world. Pacifying the North is a shitty job that can get you killed, not some fancy reward.

9 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Healthy heirs from his marriage to Sansa, power and influence from his position on the Small Council. Tyrion, thanks to his father, is in a stronger position to inherit than he was before the start of the series.

Tyrion had a better position before his father returned. Master of Coin is a shitty job considering the state the treasury is in. The Iron Throne is indebted to half the world, meaning this is a very unthankful job even if Littlefinger hadn't obscured things to the degree he did. It is in a job in which Tyrion can pretty much only fail if what Tywin expects or demands of him is to find more money for King Joffrey's future wars against the Ironborn or Stannis.

It is also rather ironic that a landless nobleman is named Master of Coin when Tywin himself could better the financial situation of the Crown with a word by simply forgiving the Iron Throne the three million gold dragons Casterly Rock is owed - or at least defer the interest they are due on the loans. But there is no intention that he is willing to do that.

Tywin could have made Tyrion's position much easier if he had been supporting him in this manner.

And, no, Tyrion is not going to acquire power and influence in a Small Council and a court ran by Tywin Lannister and, eventuallly, by Joffrey Baratheon. You see what he is by the time of the wedding - the butt of the king's jokes and his favorite victim for public humiliation. And apparently with the silent approval of the Hand who never once raises his voice to defend his son or ask the king to treat his uncle better.

9 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

He'd not be their overlord. His son would be.

Effectively, Tyrion would be expected to run things. They would not allow Sansa to rule in her own name or her son's name (if they ever had any), just as the Winterfell garrison would be filled with Westermen loyal to Tyrion to ensure the new lord is not murdered in his sleep.

If Tyrion were able to produce a viable candidate for the lordship of the North (i.e. a non-dwarf son) then his life would even be in more danger, because if the Northmen made their peace with the fact that the new Starks were Stark-Lannisters or Lannister-Starks then nobody would have any use for Tyrion ... least of all Sansa and her son.

9 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Then your argument about getting rid of him makes no sense. Tywin was not about to be sent North until after the Winter, till he had a son.

Him going to Winterfell means getting rid of him. It shows Tywin did not want him at Casterly Rock, in the West, or - for a longer period of time - at court. In fact, for Tywin Tyrion seems to have been just a placeholder for Littlefinger as Master of Coin. He seems to have thought Petyr would just go to the Vale for a couple of months to woo Lysa and come to terms with her and then he (and Lysa?) would return to court and Littlefinger would continue in his old office.

9 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Tyrion was about to spend the next few years on the Small Council. A clever person could use than power and influence for gain.

I'd say a shorter period of time. If Tywin hadn't died, things in the North would have gone much better for the Lannisters. Most notably, Davos would have never made it to White Harbor.

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

That is rhetorical, mocking question considering Tywin himself hadn't yet come up with a proper reward for his son.

Why would he need to? Tyrion had just got off his sick bed. And what does this have to do with your original point.

Your claim was not that Tywin did not have a pre-planned reward for Tyrion, it was that he gave him no reward.

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The Master of Coin position is only free after Littlefinger volunteered to go to the Vale, and the Sansa idea wasn't even Tywin's. He didn't think of that before the Willas plan of the Tyrells came to his attention.

And?

You are moving the goalposts on your original claim. Do you understand the term 'gish galloping'? You should read up on it if you have not and then revisit many of your own posts. You constantly do this.

Lets be very, very clear. I disagreed with your idea that Tyrion was not rewarded. Tyrion was still rewarded with the Master of Coin position and the marriage of Sansa. Regardless of how it happened, Tywin still rewarded his son with them.

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Now, but he should, if he had cared to reward him at all,

He did reward him. That is simply a fact.

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thrown as much rewards and favors on him as he did on Mace Tyrell and his cronies during the council session and before.

So are you changing your argument?

Because your original point was that Tywin did not reward Tyrion. Are you now changing it to 'he did not reward him enough?

I think I was pretty clear what I disagreed with you about. Don't move the goalposts.

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He should have declared Tyrion co-savior of the city alongside himself and included his name in the celebrations.

Maybe. What does that have to do with your claim that he 'never rewarded him privately or publicly'.

I was very clear with what I disagreed with you about. Why can't you answer that instead of creating different arguments that I have not brought up.

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It isn't in his character to give Tyrion more than that, I grant you that, but he treats other members of his family much better than the dwarf.

The argument here is not if he treats his oldest son or daughter much better than Tyrion, the argument here is that you claimed he gave him no reward. He did. Let us stick on that subject.

You, at times, are a caricature who refuses to argue in good faith.

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I didn't say they were meaningless, I said they were not proper rewards, especially not the North nonsense.

You claimed they were not rewards at all. I quoted you. That Tywin did NOTHING TO HONOUR HIM PUBLICLY OR PRIVATELY.

Why is it easier for you to write a gish galloping essay than to admit you were wrong?

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The son of the Lord of Casterly Rock should succeed to Casterly Rock and the West. If you throw some other castle - any castle - at your de facto heir (and Tyrion views himself as Tywin's heir even if he was never declared heir of Casterly Rock) then this is a humiliation not a reward. You are cheated out of what you view as your rightful inheritance.

What does this have to do with our original disagreement? All of the above can be true and you would still be wrong about your original point, that Tyrion was rewarded.

These are separate arguments to the one I clearly disagree with you. I am not going down a rabbit hole of you constantly moving the goalposts just because you can't admit you were wrong on your original point.

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Tyrion is pretty qualified to sit on the council as he proved during his time as Acting Hand. Kevan doesn't need a council seat as such, he will be always at Tywin's side. What other Lannisters are 'more qualified' than Tyrion?

Learn to read or stop being so dishonest in your responses every time someone has the audacity to disgree with you.

I said "There are others more qualified than Tyrion to sit on the Small Council, there are other Lannisters and loyalists who could have married Sansa."

Honestly the constant bad faith tactics you use on these boards are infuriating.

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And, no, there aren't any Lannisters around at court who could have married Sansa.

At court? Where did I mention 'at court'?

Another bad faith response on your part. What a surprise.

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They would have to send for somebody and then they would have risked that their intentions were revealed before the marriage was made, meaning the Tyrells could have asked for Sansa before the Lannisters had married her to one of their own. And then they couldn't have refused them as the novel makes clear.

What does this have to do with your point about it not being a reward?

I disagree with your point, but I am not falling into your argumentative debate tactics by falling into the trap by going into different tangents. Eve if your point is true, that still does not mean Tyrion was not rewarded with the marriage.

 

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It seems obvious to me that the entire Sansa thing was Tywin's 'replacement reward' for Tyrion after he gave him his dressing down and told him he would never have Casterly Rock. It was a means to pacify him and to put him in his place.

Why? How is being offered the North and a Small Council position a dressing down?

Tywin could have given him nothing. You get that right?

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Every son is just who is father is, and, yes, that's more the case for Tyrion than others because he is a dwarf. But within the framework of the society he lives in Tyrion can expect, demand even, than he be his father's heir and not his father's stooge in a shitty castle full of enemies at the end of the world. Pacifying the North is a shitty job that can get you killed, not some fancy reward.

No one claimed 'fancy reward'. Once again, your bad faith arguments are at work again.

You claimed Tyrion had not been rewarded. I disagreed with your point.  A reward does not have to be 'fancy' for it still be a reward. You get that right?

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Tyrion had a better position before his father returned. Master of Coin is a shitty job considering the state the treasury is in. The Iron Throne is indebted to half the world, meaning this is a very unthankful job even if Littlefinger hadn't obscured things to the degree he did. It is in a job in which Tyrion can pretty much only fail if what Tywin expects or demands of him is to find more money for King Joffrey's future wars against the Ironborn or Stannis.

Yeah, you are just being obtuse now.

A place on the Small Council is a reward, especially to a noble who is not already a Lord. It comes with prestige, influence and power.

You claiming that it is some undesirable occupation is just bullshit. 

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It is also rather ironic that a landless nobleman is named Master of Coin when Tywin himself could better the financial situation of the Crown with a word by simply forgiving the Iron Throne the three million gold dragons Casterly Rock is owed - or at least defer the interest they are due on the loans. But there is no intention that he is willing to do that.

lol you are ridiculous.

So because Tywin does not forgive the Crown's debts to House Lannister, a Small Council position is no longer a reward?

 

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Tywin could have made Tyrion's position much easier if he had been supporting him in this manner.

He could have. That has nothing to do with what I disagreed with you about.

The Small Council position is still a reward even if Tywin did not throw in a 3 million bonus for it.

And lets be frank, you are incredibly dishonest in these kind of conversations because had Tywin lost his mind and forgiven the 3 million debt to the Crown your argument would be that he had rewarded Joffrey and not Tyrion.

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And, no, Tyrion is not going to acquire power and influence in a Small Council and a court ran by Tywin Lannister and, eventuallly, by Joffrey Baratheon.

Why not?

All the power and influence that Tyrion had acquired in his life was from his father. It was not from his own merit.

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You see what he is by the time of the wedding - the butt of the king's jokes and his favorite victim for public humiliation.

Just like Tywin when he was Hand to Aerys. Yet no one would claim that Tywin did not have power and influence from his position.

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And apparently with the silent approval of the Hand who never once raises his voice to defend his son or ask the king to treat his uncle better.

Yes he does.

^{"Am I?" Tyrion cocked his head. "Perhaps you should speak more softly to me, then. Monsters are dangerous beasts, and just now kings seem to be dying like flies."}

^{"I could have your tongue out for saying that," the boy king said, reddening. "I'm the king."}

^{Cersei put a protective hand on her son's shoulder. "Let the dwarf make all the threats he likes, Joff. I want my lord father and my uncle to see what he is."}

^{Lord Tywin ignored that; it was Joffrey he addressed. "Aerys also felt the need to remind men that he was king. And he was passing fond of ripping tongues out as well. You could ask Ser Ilyn Payne about that, though you'll get no reply."}

^{"Ser Ilyn never dared provoke Aerys the way your Imp provokes Joff," said Cersei. "You heard him. 'Monster' he said. To the King's Grace. And he threatened him . . . "}

^{This whole exchange is down to Joffrey threatening to kill his uncle and Tywin stepping in.}

^{You can argue that Tywin does not do it enough, but to claim he never stepped in when the King spoke poorly to his uncle is wrong.}

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Effectively, Tyrion would be expected to run things. They would not allow Sansa to rule in her own name or her son's name (if they ever had any), just as the Winterfell garrison would be filled with Westermen loyal to Tyrion to ensure the new lord is not murdered in his sleep.

Dude, I was very clear. His son would be the Overlord. That is true.

Just like Joffrey was King when Tyrion was his Hand. Tyrion would be in a similar position, ruling in his sons/nephews name.

 

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If Tyrion were able to produce a viable candidate for the lordship of the North (i.e. a non-dwarf son) then his life would even be in more danger, because if the Northmen made their peace with the fact that the new Starks were Stark-Lannisters or Lannister-Starks then nobody would have any use for Tyrion ... least of all Sansa and her son.

Could be. Could be not. It really depends on what happens.

Somehow I don't think Tyrion, Sansa and their children would go North on their own.

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Him going to Winterfell means getting rid of him.

No, it does not. Given that is both a long way off in terms of having children and them old enough to go.

Tywin may not even be alive when it happens. Tyrion was not going anywhere for some time.

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It shows Tywin did not want him at Casterly Rock, in the West, or - for a longer period of time - at court. In fact, for Tywin Tyrion seems to have been just a placeholder for Littlefinger as Master of Coin. He seems to have thought Petyr would just go to the Vale for a couple of months to woo Lysa and come to terms with her and then he (and Lysa?) would return to court and Littlefinger would continue in his old office.

Dude, back that up or accept that your headcannon is often wrong.

 

[Lord Varys]

20 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Why would he need to? Tyrion had just got off his sick bed. And what does this have to do with your original point.

Your claim was not that Tywin did not have a pre-planned reward for Tyrion, it was that he gave him no reward.

I don't have to bother to phrase things for any possible objections. My intention was to say that Tyrion was not rewarded by Tywin for his service alongside all the other men who were rewarded. Titles and honors and betrothals - marriages, even - can be thrown on bedridden and absent people just the same way they can on healthy and present folks. Asha Greyjoy is married in absentia to a guy, Lancel Lannister is named Lord of Darry while he is in dire condition.

To accept or go with the idea that Winterfell and Sansa are 'rewards' is ludicrous since that's making Tywin's shitty arguments your own. Tywin himself claims those are the rewards Tyrion was asking before previously, when they are in fact ways for Tywin to resolve new problems he is facing. And the Master of Coin job is the same thing. If Littlefinger hadn't gone to the Vale, Tyrion wouldn't have been offered the job.

Garlan Tyrell being named Lord of Brightwater is not dependent on Alester Florent's consent or intentions, is it? They were rewarded for their service, either immediately after the battle or during that first council session where Tyrion is just a spectator, not somebody who was included in the earlier deliberations. He may have a position at court, but he is not part of Tywin's circle or the power machine. Tywin now does things exclusively with Kevan and Mace and his people, he does not include Tyrion in the decision-making process. That is the very definition of being sidelined.

20 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

And?

You are moving the goalposts on your original claim. Do you understand the term 'gish galloping'? You should read up on it if you have not and then revisit many of your own posts. You constantly do this.

Lets be very, very clear. I disagreed with your idea that Tyrion was not rewarded. Tyrion was still rewarded with the Master of Coin position and the marriage of Sansa. Regardless of how it happened, Tywin still rewarded his son with them.

He did reward him. That is simply a fact.

So are you changing your argument?

Because your original point was that Tywin did not reward Tyrion. Are you now changing it to 'he did not reward him enough?

 

My original point was about how Tyrion isn't properly rewarded by his father because shit like Winterfell and a relatively inferior position at court are not what he thinks is due to him. And not just as a reward for proving his value but simply by virtue of being Tywin's son and the only one with the right to succeed him as Lord of Casterly Rock.

20 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

I think I was pretty clear what I disagreed with you about. Don't move the goalposts.

Maybe. What does that have to do with your claim that he 'never rewarded him privately or publicly'.

He didn't go to him and said privately and publicly 'because of your great service to the Crown, etc. you are hereby getting those great rewards'. He was effectively told to be Master of Coin without having a say in this, just as he was effectively forced to marry Sansa. Those aren't rewards. You can reject a reward ... and all the other men being rewarded for their leal service could pick and choose what they want. Some most likely outright demanded their 'rewards'.

Generally you should take better care of your own 'head cannon' less they do not obliterate your mind ... ideas like Master of Coin being a great reward or Tyrion having the opportunity to prepare for things at Joff's court, etc. are all in your head and not the books we are reading. It is ridiculous to assume Tyrion was in a great position prior to Joff's wedding. They treated him so well he wanted to go back to CR as soon as the wedding was over, never mind that he had a position on the council. He was effectively bullied out of court by his family and their allies.

And you don't have to think deep to realize that any children Tyrion and Sansa might be produce would stand as much chance to succeed to the Rock as Robb's obscure cousins in the Vale do to succeed to Winterfell. They would be removed from court and from the West while Tywin would, in due time, name his own heir whoever that might be. He made it clear Tyrion would never get the Rock. And if he failed to do that for some reason, the succession of CR after Tywin's death would be ruled upon by the Queen Regent or, if Joff and Tommen were already of age at that time, by them.

[Bernie Mac]

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't have to bother to phrase things for any possible objections. My intention was to say that Tyrion was not rewarded by Tywin for his service alongside all the other men who were rewarded.

He was rewarded.

During the celebration at the end of the battle Tyrion was injured, bedridden. Possibly on his deathbed, he was not present for that at the end of ASOS. But he was rewarded.

He was given a Small Council position and Sansa. He was free to turn down Sansa and the North and have a smaller castle/lordship, but he was rewarded and he choose the big potential prize of the North.

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Titles and honors and betrothals - marriages, even - can be thrown on bedridden and absent people just the same way they can on healthy and present folks. Asha Greyjoy is married in absentia to a guy, Lancel Lannister is named Lord of Darry while he is in dire condition.

Yes. What's your point?

Tywin gave Tyrion to opt out of the Sansa marriage, did he not? He offered him other castles if he did not want Sansa, did he not?

"And you want your own reward, is that it? Very well. What is it you would have of me? Lands, castle, some office?"

So like the other lords who asked for specific lands and rewards, it was up to Tyrion to ask his father what he wanted.

 

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To accept or go with the idea that Winterfell and Sansa are 'rewards' is ludicrous since that's making Tywin's shitty arguments your own.

Don't be obtuse. They are obviously rewards.

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Tywin himself claims those are the rewards Tyrion was asking before previously, when they are in fact ways for Tywin to resolve new problems he is facing.

They can be both. They are not mutually exclusive.

A manager can reward an employee who has done a good job with a promotion, which means more responsibility and better pay.  That is both a reward for the employee and resolving a problem the manager has.

Tywin benefiting from the rewards he gives Tyrion does not mean they are no longer rewards. The same is true of the lands he gave to his sister and brother. They benefit both parties, but they are still rewards.

Or is the same when his father gave lands to the Clegane who saved his life.

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And the Master of Coin job is the same thing. If Littlefinger hadn't gone to the Vale, Tyrion wouldn't have been offered the job.

Maybe not, but he was. So he was rewarded. I simply don't understand your logic here. We are dealing with what actually happened in the books, not what could have happened.

How do you not understand this? Why do you constantly think your own head cannon trumps what actually happened in the books?

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Garlan Tyrell being named Lord of Brightwater is not dependent on Alester Florent's consent or intentions, is it?

eh? Fuck knows what you are talking about now.

Garlan would not be being offered Brightwater Keep if Alester did not rebel. He did rebel and the Tyrells are being rewarded with their lands.

Tyrion would possibly* not have been offered the Master of Coin position if Littlefinger did not leave the capital. But he did leave the capital and Tyrion was rewarded with his position.

This is not a difficult concept. Every day there are Managers, DM's, Assistant Managers, Supervisors and Team leaders leaving their jobs for one reason or another. When those companies promote from within, it is usually as a reward to a member of staff they feel deserves the promotion.

* I say possibly, because we simply don't know. Quit confusing your head cannon for the actual cannon.

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They were rewarded for their service, either immediately after the battle or during that first council session where Tyrion is just a spectator, not somebody who was included in the earlier deliberations.

So? There is not a timetable when something can be classed as a reward. This is just another dumb point you are making.

 

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He may have a position at court, but he is not part of Tywin's circle or the power machine.

eh? Of course, he is. He is a member of the Small Council. Again, you are being incredibly obtuse with your reasoning.

Tyrion does not have to know every secret to be part of the 'power machine'. And this is another dirty debate tactic you are using.

• What is the Power Machine
• When is it referenced in the books
• Who are the members of the Power Machine
• What does this have to do with what we are talking about

Tyrion was rewarded with a place on the Small Council. That was his reward. You creating new positions from your head cannon has nothing to do with this argument.

Do you not realize how ridiculous you are being right now? Tyrion can still be rewarded and not be on this imaginary Power Machine council you have just made up.

It is like a noble being rewarded with a Lordship and then you claiming it is not a real reward as was not made King.

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Tywin now does things exclusively with Kevan and Mace and his people, he does not include Tyrion in the decision-making process. That is the very definition of being sidelined.

Stop making up shit.

We are talking about the books, not your headcannon in which all of the decisions are exclusively with Mace and not Tyrion. Prove it. Offer actual evidence of this 'exclusiveness'. 

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My original point was about how Tyrion isn't properly rewarded by his father

Dude, I disagreed with you saying he was not rewarded and you wrote an essay of bullshit defending your position.

Are you now admitting you were mistaken and that Tyrion was in fact rewarded?

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because shit like Winterfell and a relatively inferior position at court are not what he thinks is due to him.

So?

A reward is still a reward.

And how is it an inferior position at court? Name 20 better positions at court? Name 10? Or admit you are speaking horseshit.

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And not just as a reward for proving his value but simply by virtue of being Tywin's son and the only one with the right to succeed him as Lord of Casterly Rock.

eh? What does that have to do with anything?

If he is the only one with a right to succeed him as Lord of Casterly Rock then he will do so. If he does not have that right, then he won't.

Tyrion was rewared with Sansa and the Master of Coin position while Tywin was still alive. If. like you claim that he is the only one with the right to succeed him as Lord of the Rock then he will do so when Tywin is dead.

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He didn't go to him and said privately and publicly 'because of your great service to the Crown, etc. you are hereby getting those great rewards'.

Yes he did.

"You asked me to reward you for your efforts in the battle," Lord Tywin reminded him forcefully. "This is a chance for you, Tyrion, the best you are ever likely to have."

 

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He was effectively told to be Master of Coin without having a say in this, just as he was effectively forced to marry Sansa.

Neither of those are true. He was able to quit both.

"The Tyrells would think us niggardly. I will have the wedding and the waterfront. If you cannot pay for them, say so, and I shall find a master of coin who can."

The disgrace of being dismissed after so short a time was not something Tyrion cared to suffer. "I will find your money."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The man who weds Sansa Stark can claim Winterfell in her name," his uncle Kevan put in. "Had that not occurred to you?"

"If you will not have the girl, we shall give her to one of your cousins," said his father. "Kevan, is Lancel strong enough to wed, do you think?"

 

He was not forced into either position. He chose to accept them as they are prestigious rewards and Tyrion likes power and influence.

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Those aren't rewards. You can reject a reward ...

As could Tyrion.

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and all the other men being rewarded for their leal service could pick and choose what they want. Some most likely outright demanded their 'rewards'.

As could Tyrion.

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Generally you should take better care of your own 'head cannon' less they do not obliterate your mind ... ideas like Master of Coin being a great reward or Tyrion having the opportunity to prepare for things at Joff's court, etc. are all in your head and not the books we are reading.

 

Dude, not only do you confuse your own headcannon for text, but your warp reality to suit your arguments. It is like debating with a flat earther at times.

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It is ridiculous to assume Tyrion was in a great position prior to Joff's wedding. They treated him so well he wanted to go back to CR as soon as the wedding was over, never mind that he had a position on the council. He was effectively bullied out of court by his family and their allies.

You mean by the King and the Queen Mother.

What does that have to do with Tyrion?

Tywin was in a similar position with Aerys. Would you deny that him being made Hand was not a reward because of it?

 

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And you don't have to think deep to realize that any children Tyrion and Sansa might be produce would stand as much chance to succeed to the Rock as Robb's obscure cousins in the Vale do to succeed to Winterfell.

Maybe. How does that change anything I said?

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They would be removed from court and from the West while Tywin would, in due time, name his own heir whoever that might be.

More headcannon nonsense. Deal with the text, not your fantasies.

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He made it clear Tyrion would never get the Rock.

Possibly.

Though that contradicts your own point that Tyrion was his only heir.

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And if he failed to do that for some reason, the succession of CR after Tywin's death would be ruled upon by the Queen Regent or, if Joff and Tommen were already of age at that time, by them.

Yup. Pretty dumb of Tyrion to constantly piss them of Joffrey and Cersei, don't cha think?

 

[Walda]

In my opinion, Kevan was going along under his brother's guidence and not plotting anything until Lancel was at death's door and Willem was dead and he had this conversation.

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"Littlefinger is subtle and ambitious. I do not trust him. Nor should you.”

“He won Highgarden to our side …” Cersei began.

“… and sold you Ned Stark, I know. He will sell us just as quick. A coin is as dangerous as a sword in the wrong hands.”

His uncle Kevan looked at him oddly. “Not to us, surely. The gold of Casterly Rock …”

“… is dug from the ground. Littlefinger’s gold is made from thin air, with a snap of his fingers.”

"A more useful skill than any of yours, sweet brother,” purred Cersei, in a voice sweet with malice.

"Littlefinger is a liar—”

"—and black as well, said the raven of the crow.”

Lord Tywin slammed his hand down on the table. “Enough! I will have no more of this unseemly squabbling. You are both Lannisters, and will comport yourselves as such.”

(ASoS Ch 19 Tyrion IIIU)

Until this point, I don't think Kevan realised Ned had been sold to Cersei (which is really just Tyrion's belief, and Cersei's - in reality, Baelish took money from borh Cersei and Ned and screwed them both by arranging with Slynt, Payne, a couple of  Slynt's goldcloaks and Joffrey to have Ned slaghtered rather than sent to the wall).

Until this point, he had not considered the possibility that his brother's children were a nest of vipers who were capable of arranging murder. Worse, that they were so unscrupulous that they might even be up to paying a footpad to attack Ned's son, like Catelyn had claimed; poisoning Jon Arryn, as Ned had claimed; commiting incest, as Stannis claimed. Then, there is the thought that Cersei might even be capable of sending out a catspaw to poison a Lannister - and not just any Lannister, but his son.

Some time between this conversation and Joffrey's wedding, Kevan grows closer to the faith of the Seven, and the faith of the Seven grow more militant. 

According to Lancel, when he was near death's door, the Old High Septon spoke to him.

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“When it seemed that I might die, my father brought the High Septon to pray for me. He is a good man...He says the Mother spared me for some holy purpose, so I might atone for my sins.”

(AFfC Ch 7 Cersei II)

The bit about atoning for sins makes me suspect Lancel gave High Septon a deathbed confession. We know from Lancel's interactions with Tyrion what a weak reed he is. Of course he has told about sleeping with Cersei and killing Robert with strongwine at her command.

And of course, if he was so far gone as to be seeking last rites, Kevan has a reason to dismiss Ballabar, on the basis that he has already done all medicine can do for Lancel. Given Ballabar's liberal use of milk of the poppy, and maesters in general leeching and blistering whenever a person takes a turn for the worse, that is probably a good thing for Lancel even if the maester was in fact doing his best to cure him. 

When we next see Lancel 

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His cousin Ser Lancel had been brought down by Ser Kevan, the first time he’d left his sickbed since the battle. He looks ghastly. Lancel’s hair had turned white and brittle, and he was thin as a stick. Without his father beside him holding him up, he would surely have collapsed. Yet when Sansa praised his valor and said how good it was to see him getting strong again, both Lancel and Ser Kevan beamed.

(ASoS Ch 60 Tyrion VIII)

I notice the last time brittle hair and stick thinness were mentioned, it was Doreah starving as she crossed the Red Waste with Dany. This description makes me suspect that Lancel had given up maesters medicine for fasting and prayer, growing slowly stronger by the grace of the Seven. 

Note too that Kevan cracks a smile for the first time in the books here. He is a loving father, as well as a warrior, commander of men, and a powerful dangerous and well connected person. 

Another thing I notice here is what a good match Lancel's 'holy purpose' and the purpose of the sparrows are

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Our Mother Above cries out in her anguish. It is time for all anointed knights to forsake their worldly masters and defend our Holy Faith.

(AFfC Ch 4 Brienne I) This was the plea of the Sparrow Septon to Ser Illifer. Illifer was not moved to go with the sparrows to King's Landing, but I can imagine them flocking around Lancel's bed with their fasts and prayers to the Mother very soon after they brought the bones of the martyrs to Baelor's Sept. 

Kevan would rather his son defended the King than the Faith, but any aquaintance that improved his sons health and showed genuine concern for him, and addressed Lancel as a warrior would be appreciated by Kevan, and might well get more of his notice than any Lannister would expect him to give a band of low-born beggars.

A very short time later, Joffrey is poisoned and Cersei blames Tyrion. Kevan dutifully visits Tyrion daily, but if he has already suspected Tywin's children were snakes that would stop at nothing, Tyrion poisoning Cersei's son at his wedding, and Cersei's zealous persuit of the prosecution of the case against her brother makes it abundantly clear that these two were absolutely capable of killing their own kin.

Then, Tyrion kills Tywin. Jaime had four turnkeys slaughtered in order to set Tyrion loose. And than the High Septon dies.

Kevan might not be the grandmaster of strategy that Tywin was, but the bodies are stacking up and Tywin's children are looking like a threat to Lannisters as well as everyone else. 

Also, once Tywin was dead, Kevan might reasonably regard it as his turn to head the family and the realm. He might not be so ambitious as to take the rule unasked, but he is ambitious enough to find it galling to hear Cersei beg her twin to be her Hand when decency, protocol, and common sense dictate that she should be begging Kevan to be Regent and rule the realm for her. 

Kevan would have realised, when his eyes were opened to Cersei and Jaime's incest, that his brother had known this when the pair was fifteen, when he returned to Casterley Rock with Cersei rather than go to Harrenhal and watch Jaime join the Kingsguard. He might even have made Jaime Lord Sumner's squire in an attempt to seperate the twins when Joanna died.

On the matter of poisonings and assasination attempts, Kevan would probably have been more circumspect, reluctant to reveal his brother's shame without strong proofs that he did not have. Also keen to make sure Lancel and Martyn were as small a target as possible, and his own food and person was safe before Tyrion, Cersei, and Jaime became aware of his suspicions.

As he is not the sharpest sword in the Lannister armory, he might also be wondering if Tywin's children had been responsible for the death of Willum and the disappearance of Tyrek. Also, the death of Dontos and the disappearance of Sansa.

But by the time he is Regent, he has become convinced that none of Tywin's children could be trusted, or are fit to carry the Lannister name. As it happens, Cersei is a Baratheon, Jaime a Kingsguard, Tyrion an attainted traitor. That would very likely put Kevan in a good place to lay his claim as heir to Casterly Rock against that of Cersei, as well as replacing her as regent. That is to say, would have done, before he died. 

Now the question in my mind is, how many of his doubts has he shared with Lancel and the High Sparrow, and what would the High Sparrow make of them?