Heresy 235 The Winter Snow

[LynnS]

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[LynnS]

15 hours ago, Tucu said:

This conversation between Oberyn and Tyrion is related(and quite funny):

Tyrion was Tywin's Doom after all. Was this a self-fulfilling prophecy?

 

Umm, I don't know.  I don't think so.  Unless Tywin or Tyrion were aware of some sort of prophecy about Tyrion Killing his father and then taking actions that lead to that outcome, it's not really self-fulfilling prophecy.  Tyrion is characterized as Tywin's doom after the fact, rather than before.

The question is whether Tyrion will be Cersei's doom.  Or even the valonqar.  I wonder if someone is messing with her dreams and who would know about Maggie's prophecy since she hasn't told anyone about it.  She starts having these dreams after Qyburn's arrival, so he is suspect, along with anyone with glass candles. 

[alienarea]

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

Umm, I don't know.  I don't think so.  Unless Tywin or Tyrion were aware of some sort of prophecy about Tyrion Killing his father and then taking actions that lead to that outcome, it's not really self-fulfilling prophecy.  Tyrion is characterized as Tywin's doom after the fact, rather than before.

The question is whether Tyrion will be Cersei's doom.  Or even the valonqar.  I wonder if someone is messing with her dreams and who would know about Maggie's prophecy since she hasn't told anyone about it.  She starts having these dreams after Qyburn's arrival, so he is suspect, along with anyone with glass candles. 

Not sure about Tyrion being the valonqar. 
 

Why use a valyrian word with Lannisters unless they are secret Targaryens? And then Jaime is the valonquar as Tyrion is a half-brother only.

[LynnS]

12 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Not sure about Tyrion being the valonqar. 
 

Why use a valyrian word with Lannisters unless they are secret Targaryens? And then Jaime is the valonquar as Tyrion is a half-brother only.

Or is the volanqar someone who is short and squat and has visited places like Asshai and Valyria and was give the moniker "volanqar" by those people?

[Tucu]

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

Umm, I don't know.  I don't think so.  Unless Tywin or Tyrion were aware of some sort of prophecy about Tyrion Killing his father and then taking actions that lead to that outcome, it's not really self-fulfilling prophecy.  Tyrion is characterized as Tywin's doom after the fact, rather than before.

The question is whether Tyrion will be Cersei's doom.  Or even the valonqar.  I wonder if someone is messing with her dreams and who would know about Maggie's prophecy since she hasn't told anyone about it.  She starts having these dreams after Qyburn's arrival, so he is suspect, along with anyone with glass candles. 

Tyrion's birth is one of the key events that broke Tywin and Aerys relationship.

Quote

Slights and gibes became ever more numerous; courtiers hoping for advancement soon learned that the quickest way to catch the king’s eye was by making mock of his solemn, humorless Hand. Yet through all this, Tywin Lannister suffered in silence.
In 273 AC, however, Lady Joanna was taken to childbed once again at Casterly Rock, where she died delivering Lord Tywin’s second son. Tyrion, as the babe was named, was a malformed, dwarfish babe born with stunted legs, an oversized head, and mismatched, demonic eyes (some
reports also suggested he had a tail, which was lopped off at his lord father’s command). Lord Tywin’s Doom, the smallfolk called this ill-made creature, and Lord Tywin’s Bane. Upon hearing of his birth, King Aerys infamously said, “The gods cannot abide such arrogance. They have plucked a fair flower from his hand and given him a monster in her place, to teach him some humility at last.”

It was not long before reports of the king’s remarks reached Lord Tywin as he grieved at Casterly Rock. Thereafter, no shred of the old affection between the two men endured.

A couple of odd observations:

-Did Tywin really cut Tyrion's tail (tale)?

-Tyrion is Tywin's heir, Tywin's Doom and Tywin's Bane. These looks like references to Aragorn, Mount Doom and Isildur's Bane (the One Ring).

 

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Or is the volanqar someone who is short and squat and has visited places like Asshai and Valyria and was give the moniker "volanqar" by those people?

The volanqar is probably my favorite riddle of the bunch.  My hunch is that the prophecy refers to the “hands” of Tommen.  The mistake Cersei makes, is assuming that it refers to her little brother.  That’s not how the prophecy was stated however:

Quote

“Will the king and I have children?” she asked.
“Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you.”

“Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds,” she said. “And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.”

The crone is still talking about Cersei’s children when she mentions that the valonqar, aka “little brother”, will wrap his hands about her throat and choke the life from her.  Otherwise she would have stated that “your” valonqar shall wrap his hands about her pale white throat.

So, despite the fact that the Crone is describing Cersei’s children as having died, she’s still referencing Cersei’s children when she makes the distinction that it will be the little brother’s “hands” that will choke the life from Cersei.

So in other words Tommen’s hands will choke the life from Cersei after his death.  

So either we’re dealing with zombie Tommen (as much fun as that sounds), or more probably we’re dealing with Tommen’s Hands.  I.e. the multiple persons that have served as Tommen’s Hands during his tenure as king.

So in reality, Cersei should be focusing her attention on Harys Swyft, Orton Merryweather and/or Mace Tyrell.

 

[Frey family reunion]

12 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Did Tywin really cut Tyrion's tale?

Probably not.  But Tyrion certainly cut Tywin’s “tale” short.

[alienarea]

53 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

 

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

Or is the volanqar someone who is short and squat and has visited places like Asshai and Valyria and was give the moniker "volanqar" by those people?

The volanqar is probably my favorite riddle of the bunch.  My hunch is that the prophecy refers to the “hands” of Tommen.  The mistake Cersei makes, is assuming that it refers to her little brother.  That’s not how the prophecy was stated however:

Quote

“Will the king and I have children?” she asked.
“Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you.”

“Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds,” she said. “And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.”

The crone is still talking about Cersei’s children when she mentions that the valonqar, aka “little brother”, will wrap his hands about her throat and choke the life from her.  Otherwise she would have stated that “your” valonqar shall wrap his hands about her pale white throat.

So, despite the fact that the Crone is describing Cersei’s children as having died, she’s still referencing Cersei’s children when she makes the distinction that it will be the little brother’s “hands” that will choke the life from Cersei.

So in other words Tommen’s hands will choke the life from Cersei after his death.  

 

Good observation about the valonqar vs your valonqar, but I'm not on board with your suggestion that Tommen's hands are to be watched.

Euron is a younger brother and claims to have been to Valyria.

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, Tucu said:

-Tyrion is Tywin's heir, Tywin's Doom and Tywin's Bane. These looks like references to Aragorn, Mount Doom and Isildur's Bane (the One Ring).

That's an interesting comparison.  But I'm not sure that doom and bane are being used in the same way as LOTR. Unless Tyrion is the doom and bane of House Lannister.  Tyrion as Aragorn?  The return of the king?

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Jon I

"I don't even know who my mother was," Jon said.

"Some woman, no doubt. Most of them are." He favored Jon with a rueful grin. "Remember this, boy. All dwarfs may be bastards, yet not all bastards need be dwarfs." And with that he turned and sauntered back into the feast, whistling a tune. When he opened the door, the light from within threw his shadow clear across the yard, and for just a moment Tyrion Lannister stood tall as a king.

 

 

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

So, despite the fact that the Crone is describing Cersei’s children as having died, she’s still referencing Cersei’s children when she makes the distinction that it will be the little brother’s “hands” that will choke the life from Cersei.

The valonqar sounds more like its being used as a title to my ears.   I'm not even sure that Tommen and Myrcella will die.  Bran and Rickon were supposed to be dead as far as anyone knew at one point.  I question it because of Jaimes dream:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jaime VI

The steps ended abruptly on echoing darkness. Jaime had the sense of vast space before him. He jerked to a halt, teetering on the edge of nothingness. A spearpoint jabbed at the small of the back, shoving him into the abyss. He shouted, but the fall was short. He landed on his hands and knees, upon soft sand and shallow water. There were watery caverns deep below Casterly Rock, but this one was strange to him. "What place is this?"

"Your place." The voice echoed; it was a hundred voices, a thousand, the voices of all the Lannisters since Lann the Clever, who'd lived at the dawn of days. But most of all it was his father's voice, and beside Lord Tywin stood his sister, pale and beautiful, a torch burning in her hand. Joffrey was there as well, the son they'd made together, and behind them a dozen more dark shapes with golden hair.

 

.The line of Jaime's dead ancestors, including Tywin, Cersei and Joffrey (soon to be dead); does not include Tommen and Myrcella among the dead or fated to be dead.  A case of what's missing from this picture?

We should consider that some of Maggie's prophecy contains weasel words to quote George about Melisandre.  

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, alienarea said:

Good observation about the valonqar vs your valonqar, but I'm not on board with your suggestion that Tommen's hands are to be watched.

Euron is a younger brother and claims to have been to Valyria.

I am also highly suspicious of Euron having a part in Cersei's demise at some point.  Especially if he is hiding the smiling eye. 

[LynnS]

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[Black Crow]

8 hours ago, LynnS said:

The valonqar sounds more like its being used as a title to my ears.   I'm not even sure that Tommen and Myrcella will die.  Bran and Rickon were supposed to be dead as far as anyone knew at one point.  I question it because of Jaimes dream:

.The line of Jaime's dead ancestors, including Tywin, Cersei and Joffrey (soon to be dead); does not include Tommen and Myrcella among the dead or fated to be dead.  A case of what's missing from this picture?

We should consider that some of Maggie's prophecy contains weasel words to quote George about Melisandre.  

I agree anent The Valonquar being a title. Once again  there's something we don't know. Neither the Crone nor Cersei use High Valyrian conversationally, but both recognise the term/title and its meaning.

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I agree anent The Valonquar being a title. Once again  there's something we don't know. Neither the Crone nor Cersei use High Valyrian conversationally, but both recognise the term/title and its meaning.

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A Feast for Crows - Cersei VIII

"Aye." Malice gleamed in Maggy's yellow eyes. "Queen you shall be . . . until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear."

 

Anger flashed across the child's face. "If she tries I will have my brother kill her." Even then she would not stop, willful child as she was. She still had one more question due her, one more glimpse into her life to come.

 

"Will the king and I have children?" she asked.

 

"Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you."

That made no sense to Cersei. Her thumb was throbbing where she'd cut it, and her blood was dripping on the carpet. How could that be? she wanted to ask, but she was done with her questions.

The old woman was not done with her, however. "Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds," she said. "And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

"What is a valonqar? Some monster?" The golden girl did not like that foretelling. "You're a liar and a warty frog and a smelly old savage, and I don't believe a word of what you say. Come away, Melara. She is not worth hearing."

 

So I think we have reached the part where a younger more beautiful queen has come (Margaery) with the intention of casting her down and taking that which Cersei holds most dear (Tommen) and the time and place where Cersei is cast down, everything is taken from her and she drowns in her own tears:

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A Dance with Dragons - Cersei II

Cersei began to climb.

If anything, the jeers and shouts were cruder here. Her walk had not taken her through Flea Bottom, so its denizens had packed onto the lower slopes of Aegon's High Hill to see the show. The faces leering out at her from behind the shields and spears of the Poor Fellows seemed twisted, monstrous, hideous. Pigs and naked children were everywhere underfoot, crippled beggars and cutpurses swarmed like roaches through the press. She saw men whose teeth had been filed into points, hags with goiters as big as their heads, a whore with a huge striped snake draped about breasts and shoulders, a man whose cheeks and brow were covered with open sores that wept grey pus. They grinned and licked their lips and hooted at her as she went limping past, her breasts heaving with the effort of the climb. Some shouted obscene proposals, others insults. Words are wind, she thought, words cannot hurt me. I am beautiful, the most beautiful woman in all Westeros, Jaime says so, Jaime would never lie to me. Even Robert, Robert never loved me, but he saw that I was beautiful, he wanted me.

She did not feel beautiful, though. She felt old, used, filthy, ugly. There were stretch marks on her belly from the children she had borne, and her breasts were not as firm as they had been when she was younger. Without a gown to hold them up, they sagged against her chest. I should not have done this. I was their queen, but now they've seen, they've seen, they've seen. I should never have let them see. Gowned and crowned, she was a queen. Naked, bloody, limping, she was only a woman, not so very different from their wives, more like their mothers than their pretty little maiden daughters. What have I done?

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Cersei II

There was something in her eyes, stinging, blurring her sight. She could not cry, she would not cry, the worms must never see her weep. Cersei rubbed her eyes with the heels of her hands. A gust of cold wind made her shiver violently.

And suddenly the hag was there, standing in the crowd with her pendulous teats and her warty greenish skin, leering with the rest, with malice shining from her crusty yellow eyes. "Queen you shall be," she hissed, "until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all you hold most dear."

And then there was no stopping the tears. They burned down the queen's cheeks like acid. Cersei gave a sharp cry, covered her nipples with one arm, slid her other hand down to hide her slit, and began to run, shoving her way past the line of Poor Fellows, crouching as she scrambled crab-legged up the hill. Partway up she stumbled and fell, rose, then fell again ten yards farther on. The next thing she knew she was crawling, scrambling uphill on all fours like a dog as the good folks of King's Landing made way for her, laughing and jeering and applauding her.

At this point Cersei has lost everything she holds dear.  In the Epilogue, Kevan Lannister means to send her to Casterly Rock and get her out of the way until Varys intervenes because he still has need of her as Queen.  At this point Cersei is surrounded by the worst elements we can imagine.

The question is whether Varys intends to assassinate Tommen.

[Melifeather]

17 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

The volanqar is probably my favorite riddle of the bunch.  My hunch is that the prophecy refers to the “hands” of Tommen.  The mistake Cersei makes, is assuming that it refers to her little brother.  That’s not how the prophecy was stated however:

The crone is still talking about Cersei’s children when she mentions that the valonqar, aka “little brother”, will wrap his hands about her throat and choke the life from her.  Otherwise she would have stated that “your” valonqar shall wrap his hands about her pale white throat.

So, despite the fact that the Crone is describing Cersei’s children as having died, she’s still referencing Cersei’s children when she makes the distinction that it will be the little brother’s “hands” that will choke the life from Cersei.

So in other words Tommen’s hands will choke the life from Cersei after his death.  

So either we’re dealing with zombie Tommen (as much fun as that sounds), or more probably we’re dealing with Tommen’s Hands.  I.e. the multiple persons that have served as Tommen’s Hands during his tenure as king.

So in reality, Cersei should be focusing her attention on Harys Swyft, Orton Merryweather and/or Mace Tyrell.

 

I like this because its unexpected, but I also like Jaime, because Cersei doesn't suspect Jaime whatsoever. She only thinks of Tyrion as the valonqar. GRRM has also provided examples of women who are the eldest child in their family that were passed over as heir in favor of a younger brother - in effect males stealing the birthright blessing from their elder sisters. Cersei was born first with Jaime holding her heel, and her incestuous relationship with him was actually a means of manipulation. Being born grasping a heel is a story as old as Jacob and Esau from the Bible with Esau being born first, but Jacob - with the help of his mother - stole his brother's birthright blessing from their blind father as he lay dying. The conflict in the Lannister family over inheritance is between Cersei and Jaime, not Cersei and Tommen.

[LynnS]

Should we be looking for someone with thick, strong hands?

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A Feast for Crows - Cersei VIII

The valonqar shall wrap his hands about your throat, the queen heard, but the voice did not belong to the old woman. The hands emerged from the mists of her dream and coiled around her neck; thick hands, and strong. Above them floated his face, leering down at her with his mismatched eyes. No, the queen tried to cry out, but the dwarf's fingers dug deep into her neck, choking off her protests. She kicked and screamed to no avail. Before long she was making the same sound her son had made, the terrible thin sucking sound that marked Joff's last breath on earth.

coiled:  A series of connected spirals or concentric rings formed by gathering or winding; An individual spiral or ring within such a series.

[alienarea]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

Should we be looking for someone with thick, strong hands?

Marwyn? Younger brother to Tywin?

[Black Crow]

18 hours ago, LynnS said:

Should we be looking for someone with thick, strong hands?

Nah, I think its the old conflict between taking things metaphorically and literally.

Cersei is warned that in the end she faces a nemesis of some kind - "the Valonqar". However, as is the nature of prophecy there's no out and out identification of how her just deserts will come about, but her dream reveals that her own conscience thinks its her brother Tyrion, whom she's hated ever since he was born. Of course, for all we know at this stage he might be, but it isn't a given at the outset and as usual with these prophecy things it may come about thus simply through her own efforts to avoid it, per the old story of "Death in Samarra"

A merchant in Baghdad sends his servant to the marketplace for provisions. Soon afterwards, the servant comes home white and trembling and tells him that in the marketplace, he was jostled by a woman, whom he recognized as Death, who made a threatening gesture. Borrowing the merchant’s horse, he flees at great speed to Samarra, a distance of about 75 miles (125 km), where he believes Death will not find him. The merchant then goes to the marketplace and finds Death, and asks why she made the threatening gesture to his servant. She replies, “That was not a threatening gesture, it was only a start of surprise. I was astonished to see him in Baghdad, for I have an appointment with him tonight in Samarra.”

 

[Tucu]

19 hours ago, LynnS said:

Should we be looking for someone with thick, strong hands?

coiled:  A series of connected spirals or concentric rings formed by gathering or winding; An individual spiral or ring within such a series.

Something shadowy is going on around Tyrion. As you quoted earlier at the Wall Tyrion's shadow was as tall as a king. Aemon also describes him as a large man, as a giant:

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"Oh, I think that Lord Tyrion is quite a large man," Maester Aemon said from the far end of the table. He spoke softly, yet the high officers of the Night's Watch all fell quiet, the better to hear what the ancient had to say. "I think he is a giant come among us, here at the end of the world."

Tyrion answered gently, "I've been called many things, my lord, but giant is seldom one of them."

"Nonetheless," Maester Aemon said as his clouded, milk-white eyes moved to Tyrion's face, "I think it is true."

When they are approaching Valyria, Moqorro describes Tyrion's big shadow:

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"Dragons," Moqorro said in the Common Tongue of Westeros. He spoke it very well, with hardly a trace of accent. No doubt that was one reason the high priest Benerro had chosen him to bring the faith of R'hllor to Daenerys Targaryen. "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all."

We have another tall shadow in the books (with coiling fingers):

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Two arms wriggled free, grasping, black fingers coiling around Melisandre's straining thighs, pushing, until the whole of the shadow slid out into the world and rose taller than Davos, tall as the tunnel, towering above the boat. He had only an instant to look at it before it was gone, twisting between the bars of the portcullis and racing across the surface of the water, but that instant was long enough.

 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

Two arms wriggled free, grasping, black fingers coiling around Melisandre's straining thighs, pushing, until the whole of the shadow slid out into the world and rose taller than Davos, tall as the tunnel, towering above the boat. He had only an instant to look at it before it was gone, twisting between the bars of the portcullis and racing across the surface of the water, but that instant was long enough.

Holy old hell!  Shadow assassin is now my favorite pick!