Heresy 235 The Winter Snow

[alienarea]

6 hours ago, LynnS said:

Holy old hell!  Shadow assassin is now my favorite pick!

Maybe Tyrion is a shadow assassin made flesh?

[Frey family reunion]

On 5/19/2021 at 3:06 AM, Black Crow said:

I agree anent The Valonquar being a title. Once again  there's something we don't know. Neither the Crone nor Cersei use High Valyrian conversationally, but both recognise the term/title and its meaning.

The only reason Cersei learned the meaning is that she asked her Septa what the word meant.  And the Septa happened to know some High Valyrian.

We don't know that the Crone doesn't use High Valyrian conversationally, or at least didn't use it conversationally when she lived in the "East".  

High Valyrian was the language of choice in several of the locations where the Valyrians had conquered in the East.

I've had relatives from what we call "the Old Country".  Specifically, Sicily, and it's not uncommon that they will ocasionally use a word or phrase from their original language.  

Which is kind of what I thought happened here.  I think this is also a possibility when a single word in their old language encompasses something that only multiple words in the new language accomplishes.

So here one word in High Valyrian describes the younger brother or little brother.  Where it takes two words in the common tongue to describe the same idea.

I think the other reason is it's a device that allows GRRM to keep the meaning of the prophecy more oblique.  Since it required an additional piece of information for both Cersei and the readers to try and discern the meaning, it makes the meaning a little harder to figure.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

We don't know that the Crone doesn't use High Valyrian conversationally, or at least didn't use it conversationally when she lived in the "East".  

The crones hut smells of eastern spices.

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Cersei III

Whenever Cersei looked at the old crone, the face of Maggy the Frog seemed to float before her eyes, wrinkled and terrible and wise. All old women look alike, she tried to tell herself, that's all it is. In truth, the bent-back sorceress had looked nothing like the Queen of Thorns, yet somehow the sight of Lady Olenna's nasty little smile was enough to put her back in Maggy's tent again. She could still remember the smell of it, redolent with queer eastern spices, and the softness of Maggy's gums as she sucked the blood from Cersei's finger. Queen you shall be, the old woman had promised, with her lips still wet and red and glistening, until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear.

 

[Tucu]

A couple of quotes containing conversations with people from the Free Cities that mention the valonqar:

Quote

"Your Grace," the Tyroshi murmured, bowing low, "I see you are as lovely as the tales. Even beyond the narrow sea we have heard of your great beauty, and the grief that tears your gentle heart. No man can restore your brave young son to you, but it is my hope I can at least offer you some balm for your pain." He laid his hand upon his chest. "I bring you justice. I bring you the head of your valonqar."

The old Valyrian word sent a chill through her, though it also gave her a tingle of hope

Quote

"The maegi." The words came tumbling out of her. She could still hear Melara Hetherspoon insisting that if they never spoke about the prophecies, they would not come true. She was not so silent in the well, though. She screamed and shouted. "Tyrion is the valonqar," she said. "Do you use that word in Myr? It's High Valyrian, it means little brother." She had asked Septa Saranella about the word, after Melara drowned.

Taena took her hand and stroked it. "This was a hateful woman, old and sick and ugly. You were young and beautiful, full of life and pride. She lived in Lannisport, you said, so she would have known of the dwarf and how he killed your lady mother. This creature dared not strike you, because of who you were,

The Tyroshi used the word valonqar for Tyrion on his own and Taena seem to accept the meaning. This is not a confirmation of T=V, but of the use of valonqar as a common noun.

[LynnS]

I'm off on a different track today.  Rhaegar's rubies, what do they mean?

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard I

"Only once," Robert said bitterly.

They had come together at the ford of the Trident while the battle crashed around them, Robert with his warhammer and his great antlered helm, the Targaryen prince armored all in black. On his breastplate was the three-headed dragon of his House, wrought all in rubies that flashed like fire in the sunlight. The waters of the Trident ran red around the hooves of their destriers as they circled and clashed, again and again, until at last a crushing blow from Robert's hammer stove in the dragon and the chest beneath it. When Ned had finally come on the scene, Rhaegar lay dead in the stream, while men of both armies scrabbled in the swirling waters for rubies knocked free of his armor.

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Brienne VI

Meribald performed the customary courtesies before seating himself upon the settle. Unlike Septon Narbert, the Elder Brother did not seem dismayed by Brienne's sex, but his smile did flicker and fade when the septon told him why she and Ser Hyle had come. "I see," was all he said, before he turned away with, "You must be thirsty. Please, have some of our sweet cider to wash the dust of travel from your throats." He poured for them himself. The cups were carved from driftwood too, no two the same. When Brienne complimented them, he said, "My lady is too kind. All we do is cut and polish the wood. We are blessed here. Where the river meets the bay, the currents and the tides wrestle one against the other, and many strange and wondrous things are pushed toward us, to wash up on our shores. Driftwood is the least of it. We have found silver cups and iron pots, sacks of wool and bolts of silk, rusted helms and shining swords . . . aye, and rubies."

That interested Ser Hyle. "Rhaegar's rubies?"

"It may be. Who can say? The battle was long leagues from here, but the river is tireless and patient. Six have been found. We are all waiting for the seventh."

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion I

The room was dim, but there were bars of yellow sunlight showing between the slats of the shutters. Tyrion shook the last drops off and waddled over patterned Myrish carpets as soft as new spring grass. Awkwardly he climbed the window seat and flung the shutters open to see where Varys and the gods had sent him.

Beneath his window six cherry trees stood sentinel around a marble pool, their slender branches bare and brown. A naked boy stood on the water, poised to duel with a bravo's blade in hand. He was lithe and handsome, no older than sixteen, with straight blond hair that brushed his shoulders. So lifelike did he seem that it took the dwarf a long moment to realize he was made of painted marble, though his sword shimmered like true steel.

If the 6 cherry trees standing sentinel around Aegon are the 6 rubies to which Meribald refers, who is the 7th?

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion I

Tyrion left the fat women to their loaves and kettles and went in search of the cellar where Illyrio had decanted him the night before. It was not hard to find. There was enough wine there to keep him drunk for a hundred years; sweet reds from the Reach and sour reds from Dorne, pale Pentoshi ambers, the green nectar of Myr, three score casks of Arbor gold, even wines from the fabled east, from Qarth and Yi Ti and Asshai by the Shadow. In the end, Tyrion chose a cask of strongwine marked as the private stock of Lord Runceford Redwyne, the grandfather of the present Lord of the Arbor. The taste of it was languorous and heady on the tongue, the color a purple so dark that it looked almost black in the dim-lit cellar. Tyrion filled a cup, and a flagon for good measure, and carried them up to the gardens to drink beneath those cherry trees he'd seen.

.I'm not sure that the rubies represent fallen stars but rather Aegon's sentinels.  This would imply that some of the Faith are aware of this secret dragon schooled in the Faith.  While 6 are cherry picked, one remains to be found.  I don't think the re-appearance of the Faith Militant is coincidence. 

Also it seems there were more than 7 rubies on Rhaegar's armor:

Quote

 Rhaegar lay dead in the stream, while men of both armies scrabbled in the swirling waters for rubies knocked free of his armor.

The entire 3-headed dragon was wrought in rubies.  So why does Meribald speak of 7 rubies specifically and tie them to Rhaegar? 

[Tucu]

We get so little information about Rhaegar that is hard to follow the threads. I imagine that by the end we will get Rhaegar's rubies=blood of the dragon=dragonseeds.

From F&B we know that most dragonseeds failed during the Red Sowing so it would not be surprising if Rhaegar distributed his "blessing" far and wide. According to Munkun we get these stats for the Red Sowing:

-16 seeds died

-48 seeds were burned or maimed

-3 seeds claimed a dragon (+Nettles)

[HoodedCrow]

Do you think that the shimmering sword in the statue of the boy is real?

[LynnS]

10 hours ago, HoodedCrow said:

Do you think that the shimmering sword in the statue of the boy is real?

It sounds like something Illyrio would do.  Tyrion gets close enough to realize that the statue is painted marble, but says the sword shimmered like true steel.  Martin uses the word shimmer to describe the affect of sunlight on other swords and objects.

It's interesting that Tyrion describes it as 'true steel', since this is how King Robert is also described:  

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Jon I

"And his brothers?" Jon asked.

The armorer considered that a moment. "Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends. And Renly, that one, he's copper, bright and shiny, pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day."

Martin has said that when he writes, he can ponder the use of just a few words.  He only uses true steel together four times in the books.  The implication is that Aegon is the true steel or true bloodline.  Barristan uses it to describe the character of a true knight.   

Tyrion says this about loyalty:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion V

Griff rounded on him. "Unless you can cut this fog with your next witticism, keep it to yourself."

Yes, Father, the dwarf almost said. I'll be quiet. Thank you. He did not know these Volantenes, yet it seemed to him that elephants and tigers might have good reason to make common cause when faced with dragons. Might be the cheesemonger has misjudged the situation. You can buy a man with gold, but only blood and steel will keep him true.

 

[LynnS]

@Frey family reunion  I'm having some trouble with the notion that Quentyn didn't die but has somehow been replaced by someone else,  One of the Brazen Beasts perhaps.  It can't be one of his two companions because Selmy knows what they both look like and they are standing before him over Quentyn's body.  I know your idea is that Quentyn's soul has joined with one of the dragons.  I think another possibility is that  Yronwood and Drunkwater will cross paths with Moqorro when they are seeking to transport Quentyn's body home, now that Victarion's fleet has arrived.    I can anticipate Quentyn being raised by fire and becoming a dragonrider this way.   He would also be able to drink from the cup of fire, Dragonbinder since he wouldn't be a mortal man.  Quentyn's last action was to attempt to steal a dragon, so he would come back with that motivation.

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

@Frey family reunion  I'm having some trouble with the notion that Quentyn didn't die but has somehow been replaced by someone else,  One of the Brazen Beasts perhaps.  It can't be one of his two companions because Selmy knows what they both look like and they are standing before him over Quentyn's body.  I know your idea is that Quentyn's soul has joined with one of the dragons.  I think another possibility is that  Yronwood and Drunkwater will cross paths with Moqorro when they are seeking to transport Quentyn's body home, now that Victarion's fleet has arrived.    I can anticipate Quentyn being raised by fire and becoming a dragonrider this way.   He would also be able to drink from the cup of fire, Dragonbinder since he wouldn't be a mortal man.  Quentyn's last action was to attempt to steal a dragon, so he would come back with that motivation.

This rather gets to the true nature of what's going on. We've discussed before how the white walkers may be the souls if powerful skinchangers, not drawn into the trees but forming corporeal bodies using ice crystals, Ice made flesh. The dragons as described as Fire made Flesh. I'd suspect therefore that if Quentyn is raised by fire he will be a dragon, not a dragon-rider, but at the same time I'd caution that that the dragon, if created by magic need not necessarily take the outward form of a big scaly beastie. 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

This rather gets to the true nature of what's going on. We've discussed before how the white walkers may be the souls if powerful skinchangers, not drawn into the trees but forming corporeal bodies using ice crystals, Ice made flesh. The dragons as described as Fire made Flesh. I'd suspect therefore that if Quentyn is raised by fire he will be a dragon, not a dragon-rider, but at the same time I'd caution that that the dragon, if created by magic need not necessarily take the outward form of a big scaly beastie. 

Yup, that does make sense.  Him of Fire or the man limned in flame  may well be a dragon of this nature.  It calls into question Moqorro's meaning of true and false dragons.  Dany says of Viserys that he was no true dragon because fire cannot kill a dragon. 

[Black Crow]

Its also worth reflecting on Aerion Brightflame who thought he could become a dragon by drinking the cup of fire. I rather doubt his intention was to become a scaly beastie with a long tail, but as he failed we'll never know. Danaerys on the other hand appears to have succeeded.

[Frey family reunion]

On 5/23/2021 at 3:33 AM, LynnS said:

@Frey family reunion  I'm having some trouble with the notion that Quentyn didn't die but has somehow been replaced by someone else,  One of the Brazen Beasts perhaps.  It can't be one of his two companions because Selmy knows what they both look like and they are standing before him over Quentyn's body.  I know your idea is that Quentyn's soul has joined with one of the dragons.  I think another possibility is that  Yronwood and Drunkwater will cross paths with Moqorro when they are seeking to transport Quentyn's body home, now that Victarion's fleet has arrived.    I can anticipate Quentyn being raised by fire and becoming a dragonrider this way.   He would also be able to drink from the cup of fire, Dragonbinder since he wouldn't be a mortal man.  Quentyn's last action was to attempt to steal a dragon, so he would come back with that motivation.

I've heard and read the theory about Quentyn being alive and well, and currently being a dragon rider.  It's an interesting theory and there is a few observations that I found interesting.  One of the most recent theories discussed that the burn victim was the Tattered Prince as opposed to Quentyn.  The problem I have with the theory is that Missandei spent time with the charred prince and they conversed.  So it seems doubtful that she would have come away from that experience concluding that the burned victim was Quentyn.

Now I suppose it's possible that Missandei decided to keep Quentyn's secret, so perhaps we'll learn about her motivations later.  

But for me, there is a specific reason why GRRM would want to put Quentyn on a death bed for a period of time (three days to be exact).  And that's to create a parallel to Bran's situation.  Where his third eye opened after he hovered between life and death after his fall.  (Which we've discussed the parallels of Odin's near death to obtain knowledge). 

So my guess is if Quentyn is of the right bloodline, this experience of surviving a period of time so close to death, might be the catalyst necessary for his telepathic abilities to emerge.  And in turn allow him to mentally transfer his consciousness to one of the dragons before his death.  Hence the tale of the frog prince.  Quentyn was transformed into a dragon from Rhaegal's kiss.

As for Dany, I do disagree with BC on one point here.  I don't think she's been changed to fire made flesh.  She still needs to sleep and eat, to the best of my knowledge.  And when she bleeds her blood is still red.  If I had to guess, her final transformation will also involve her leaving her body and entering into one of her dragons.  (After all the dragon has three heads).  

I think that was supposed to happen at the pyre, but for some reason, unlike Quentyn she didn't burn.  If i had to guess, I think Mirri's final spell may have been the reason, Dany didn't burn and thus prevented her consciousness from entering into one of her dragons.

[Tucu]

I still think that Quentyn is the Looney Toons of Ice and Fire (or a pantomime).  He is the frog prince that wished to be a dragon with a song, but ended croaking and roasting.

The song:

Quote

They do not understand. They may be Dornish, but I am Dorne. Years from now, when I am dead, this will be the song they sing of me

The dragon:

Quote

'The dragon has three heads,' she said to me. 'My marriage need not be the end of all your hopes,' she said. 'I know why you are here. For fire and blood.' I have Targaryen blood in me, you know that. I can trace my lineage back—"

<...>

That, and my own destiny. I am a prince of Dorne, and the blood of dragons is in my veins

<...>

Why else would Daenerys have shown me the dragons? She wants me to prove myself to her

The roasted frog:

Quote

That was all it took for Quentyn Martell to realize that something had gone awry. "Take them," he croaked, even as the basilisk's hand darted for his shortsword

<...>

Green, the prince thought, his scales are green. "Rhaegal," he said. His voice caught in his throat, and what came out was a broken croak. Frog, he thought, I am turning into Frog again. "The food," he croaked, remembering

<...>

“Behind you, behind you, behind you!”

Quentyn turned and threw his left arm across his face to shield his eyes from the furnace wind. Rhaegal, he reminded himself, the green one is Rhaegal.

When he raised his whip, he saw that the lash was burning. His hand as well. All of him, all of him was burning.

Oh, he thought. Then he began to scream.

The singers will surely sing his song for decades :-)

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Tucu said:

The singers will surely sing his song for decades :-)

LOL! But why do we have a Quentyn POV at all?  What were we supposed to learn if this is the end of Quentyn?

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

So it seems doubtful that she would have come away from that experience concluding that the burned victim was Quentyn.

So did the Brazen Beasts make off with the wrong burn victim?  Because Quentyn's POV would suggest that all of him was on fire.  The only thing he shielded was his eyes.

[Frey family reunion]

2 minutes ago, LynnS said:

So did the Brazen Beasts make off with the wrong burn victim?  Because Quentyn's POV would suggest that all of him was on fire.  The only thing he shielded was his eyes.

Sorry, I didn’t express that very clearly.  What I meant was if the burned victim wasn’t Quentyn, then I don’t see how Missendei wouldn’t have realized it, because she spent days next to him and even spoke with him.

I, however, do think the burned victim that was put in Dany’s bed was in fact Quentyn.  

[Frey family reunion]

8 minutes ago, LynnS said:

LOL! But why do we have a Quentyn POV at all?  What were we supposed to learn if this is the end of Quentyn?

Yea, that’s kind of my thought on the matter.  It’s all well and good for GRRM to give us a cautionary tale, on trying to ride a dragon, if you aren’t worthy and haven’t put the time in.  But did he really need four chapters to do it?  Which kind of makes me think that there was a greater significance to Quentyn’s tale than we currently realize.

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Yea, that’s kind of my thought on the matter.  It’s all well and good for GRRM to give us a cautionary tale, on trying to ride a dragon, if you aren’t worthy and haven’t put the time in.  But did he really need four chapters to do it?  Which kind of makes me think that there was a greater significance to Quentyn’s tale than we currently realize.

Me too.  I'm going to bake a carrot cake now....

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

LOL! But why do we have a Quentyn POV at all?  What were we supposed to learn if this is the end of Quentyn?

If we ignore the comedy for a bit and focus on the tragedy we still get a lot from Quentyn's POV and actions. We get the background of the incoming rebellion in Volantis and the tragedy in Astapor.

If Gerris Drinkwater's version is the one that reaches Dorne we probably are going to see war between Dorne and Dany eventually:

Quote

"I told him it was folly. I begged him to go home. Your bitch of a queen had no use for him, any man could see that. He crossed the world to offer her his love and fealty, and she laughed in his face."

<...>

“She spurned him. He offered her his heart, and she threw it back at him and went off to fuck her sellsword.”

<...>

“He offered her his heart,” Ser Gerris said again.

<...>

“He would have given her the spears of Dorne as well.”

And by freeing the dragons Quentyn almost ensured the destruction of Meereen:

Quote

Beneath her veils, the Green Grace sighed. “The peace that we worked so hard to forge flutters like a leaf in an autumn wind. These are dire days. Death stalks our streets, riding the pale mare from thrice-cursed Astapor. Dragons haunt the skies, feasting on the flesh of children. Hundreds are taking ship, sailing for Yunkai, for Tolos, for Qarth, for any refuge that will have them. The pyramid of Hazkar has collapsed into a smoking ruin, and many of that ancient line lie dead beneath its blackened stones. The pyramids of Uhlez and Yherizan have become the lairs of monsters, their masters homeless beggars. My people have lost all hope and turned against the gods themselves, giving over their nights to drunkenness and fornication.”